Lay persons get way too fixated on the $40 million figure. It is nothing more than an estimate and is in no way binding upon the court.
Don't get me wrong, I get how it works, but I just don't see what sort of metrics they're using to get this figure.
Does he suddenly project to have a 16-season career pulling in an average of, say, C$2m (I'm assuming tax on player wages isn't considered)? Is he then expected to have a prominent post-hockey career that would result in a difference in his earnings of $8m over, say, 20y versus what he could feasibly be earning now?
It just seems wholly implausible to me, but I don't know how they determine these metrics, since the extent of my exposure is a couple of business law courses and some passing interest.
I want to commend Wetcoaster for contributing his legal analysis on this particular thread.
What is upsetting is a fundamental lack of understanding of the legal system and the situation in general by several posters on this thread.
It is disappointing to say the least.
I don't even see it as a fundamental lack of understanding. I see it as an intentional pattern of posts designed to show a contempt for either the legal process or those who make matters of law their career. Less of the "I'd like to learn more about this", and more of the "I'm so cool because I hate lawyers" type of thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper
He has brain damage. Are you not getting that? People have sued for spilling hot coffee in their laps.
People have sued for spilling hot coffee because the defendant was shown to have continuously served coffee at a temperature vastly exceeding industry standards, in a cup that was not properly insulated to withstand those temperatures, over a span of multiple years resulting in countless injuries. In the case of one elderly woman, who spilled nearly-boiling coffee in an area that no one should ever be exposed to scalding liquids, she suffered extensive third-degree burns that required skin grafting and physical therapy, along with extensive nerve damage.
It's really not much different from me handing you boiling water in a paper cup, then wondering how you can be upset when you (inevitably) find it literally too hot to handle.
Just curious to hear what you think how the lawsuit might end up?
Liability for Bertuzzi is not really at issue for the battery given the conviction for assault causing bodily harm.
The liability of the club under the doctrine of vicarious liability and/or the tort of negligent supervision along with the parents' claim for emotional distress are the live legal issues. As far as club liability Moore has compelling evidence on his side given the large fine levied against the Canucks. The NHL decision to fine the Canucks $250,000 would be evidence of negligent supervision - in fact Campbell's language pretty much tracks the legal requirements to ground such a finding. There is strong external evidence for this claim of negligent supervision and/or vicarious liability on the part of the Canucks and its employees as the NHL imposed a significant fine on the team. In his decision suspending Bertuzzi and fining the Canucks, Colin Campbell noted the team had been warned and that it failed to properly supervise or control its players:
"In light of numerous player comments about Mr. Moore following the Vancouver-Colorado game of February 16, we believe the Vancouver organization ultimately bears some responsibility for monitoring and, to the extent necessary, attempting to moderate the focus of its team," said Campbell. "While the League provided appropriate advance warnings to both organizations... we believe that more could have and should have been done."
I was looking forward to the dust up between Bertuzzi and Crawford and Bertuzzi and the Canucks but that will not be happening with this agreement between the Defendants.
As far as damages that will be driven by the expert medical and actuarial reports before the court.
I also expect there will be a number of hockey people called to offer opinions on the likely NHL future of Steve Moore.
Of course this may never get to court as the vast majority of cases settle prior to trial. I have had numerous cases settle literally on the courthouse steps.
Don't get me wrong, I get how it works, but I just don't see what sort of metrics they're using to get this figure.
Does he suddenly project to have a 16-season career pulling in an average of, say, C$2m (I'm assuming tax on player wages isn't considered)? Is he then expected to have a prominent post-hockey career that would result in a difference in his earnings of $8m over, say, 20y versus what he could feasibly be earning now?
It just seems wholly implausible to me, but I don't know how they determine these metrics, since the extent of my exposure is a couple of business law courses and some passing interest.
Once the trial gets under way we will find out as the Plaintiff will put his case into evidence.
Did the Aquallini group assume the liability of this lawsuit when they purchased the Canucks from John McCaw and Orca Bay; the corporate entity that was initially running things is no longer around, correct?
I also think (and I'm not saying Bertuzzi isn't guilty) that 5+ players jumping on a knoked out player did more damage than the knock-out sucker punch itself.
But your honor, yes, I shoot the tires out on his car while he was driving, but it was when the car rolled and hit the wall that he was injured! If the derp fits, you must acquit!
But your honor, yes, I shoot the tires out on his car while he was driving, but it was when the car rolled and hit the wall that he was injured! If the derp fits, you must acquit!
do other players not have free will?
jumping on him was insanely stupid and nobody forced them to do it
I deleted a bunch because I didn't want to take too much space.
Good points, but what won't a lawyer or a doctor speaking for the defense say in a lawsuit, really?
When I started working at my current job 16 years ago, there was a woman on disability. She is still on it. People do manipulate the system if it is to their own benefit.
Oh, your argument makes sense now. This one woman you know who may or may not be milking the system proves completely that Moore is faking. Screw the MRI and the doctors and the fact that the defense isn't even arguing the extent of the injury.
What's even more ridiculous is your first comment about Moore being a marginal player. Please enlighten me... Does that mean that Moore didn't work as hard to get into the league or that he cares less about his dreams. Maybe his injurries don't hurt as bad because he didn't score many goals?
Wow... You'd better be careful because Karma's a *****
I believe, though I could be wrong, the future earnings that Moore is claiming for was based on playing 15 more years. Considering that he only really secured a spot in 03-04 (playing limited time in the previous two years). I think that thinking he would play until he was 40 is a bit of a crock. Granted there are still players around that age but if you look at them, they've been some of the best players to ever play the game, not 3rd or 4th line forwards.
Wetcoaster, just wondering what sort of arguments Moore's lawyers were trying to get the case heard in the States or in Ontario?
Well the thing is Moore never got the chance to have a full NHL career. I don't think it's too unreasonable to suggest his career could have turned out in a similar manner to his brother Dominic. They broke in the NHL at around the same time. Steve was actually the higher draft pick. Dominic chugged along a nice journeyman NHL career and doesn't look like he's going away any time soon.
Moore could have possibly played 10 years in the NHL, gotten some nice contracts. Maybe did some advertisements during and after his NHL career. Afterwards he could have maybe become a broadcaster. Maybe gone into coaching, become an Executive. Guy was a Harvard graduate, even if the whole hockey thing didn't work out he probably could have done something to make a good amount of money.
But he never got the chance because Bertuzzi was a ****. I'm sure he had no trouble moving on with his life. But Steve Moore still has to live with what happened every day. Brain damage is very serious and I can only imagine has made every day a difficult struggle. Forget playing hockey, it goes well beyond that. I have to imagine every time the Moores see Bertuzzi playing in the NHL they get angry. How could you not in that situation? If Bertuzzi had any class he'd give a substantial package to Steve Moore (I would go as high as $15 million with all the punitive stuff).
You may find this article published in the UBC Law Review in the wake of the McSorley conviction interesting.
It looks at the different tort regimes in Canada and the US as well as club liability under the doctrine of vicarious liability and the tort of negligent supervision.
The authors basically predicted the Moore case.
CIVIL LIABILITY IN THE ARENA OF PROFESSIONAL SPORTS
JEFFREY A. CITRON AND MARK ABLEMAN
VII. CONCLUSION
The business of professional sports has grown exponentially over the last decade. In the case of the NHL, players who earned an average salary of $200,000-$300,000 per year in the early 1990s are now averaging almost $1.8 million per year. The average NHL player can now expect to earn over $25 million during the course of a 15-year career. Elite players may earn five times as much.
During this same period, professional hockey players have become bigger, stronger and faster. Advances in technology have led to equipment that is made of hard plastics and not soft fabrics. These factors have produced an increased risk of serious injury. If an NHL player were to suddenly suffer a career-ending injury as a result of a flagrant incident of on-ice violence and the player chose to bring an action in tort, the courts could provide an important remedy. While most violent on-ice incidents would not likely give rise to liability given (1) the open and notorious violent nature of the NHL game, (2) the fact that incidents of aggression do not typically amount to tortious conduct, and (3) the doctrine of assumption of risk, incidents like the one involving Marty McSorley may be viewed as so egregious as to give rise to liability against the offending player and his team.
The application of tort principles in the context of such flagrant incidents of violence in professional sports should not be seen as a radical departure from established law, nor should the difficulty of drawing distinctions between different types of violent conduct influence the court’s application of traditional tort principles. To the extent that civil liability operates as an effective deterrent to excessively violent behaviour, it can help to protect players from unnecessary violence that could end their careers and provide them with adequate compensation for economic loss suffered as a result of that violence.
Thanks a lot for the read, Wetcoaster. I am going to read this once I finish up this motion and brief I have in front of me.
__________________
"Of course giving Sather cap space is like giving teenagers whiskey and car keys." - SBOB "Watching Sather build a team is like watching a blind man with no fingers trying to put together an elaborate puzzle." - Shadowtron
Sestito still on the make a wish tour. - rholt168
Moore is just another person looking for a handout. It has to be said, this stuff happened all the time in junior, in the minors, guys got caught up in something, bang, injury, career over. Didn't end in lawsuits, didn't lead to anything, just the way life goes sometimes.
You play a brutal sport, everything that happens on the ice is basically part of the risk you take by lacing up those skates.
agreed, I'm a Wings fan and Bert seems good for us. I really could careless if he ever played another game in a Wings uniform he is easily replaceable. But Moore seems more concerned with making money than he does to actually have making a legit comeback. He was a scrub player who at the end of the day would like a big pay day for an accident.
It was no accident. I wish it was the league itself being pursued rather than just Bertuzzi and party. IMO the league has set the stage for this type of bull to happen and should be paying the price. Maybe it would clean up its act and enforce the rules better.
agreed, I'm a Wings fan and Bert seems good for us. I really could careless if he ever played another game in a Wings uniform he is easily replaceable. But Moore seems more concerned with making money than he does to actually have making a legit comeback. He was a scrub player who at the end of the day would like a big pay day for an accident.
A "legit" comeback? You do realize that he suffers from brain damage, right?
I don't even see it as a fundamental lack of understanding. I see it as an intentional pattern of posts designed to show a contempt for either the legal process or those who make matters of law their career. Less of the "I'd like to learn more about this", and more of the "I'm so cool because I hate lawyers" type of thing.
People have sued for spilling hot coffee because the defendant was shown to have continuously served coffee at a temperature vastly exceeding industry standards, in a cup that was not properly insulated to withstand those temperatures, over a span of multiple years resulting in countless injuries. In the case of one elderly woman, who spilled nearly-boiling coffee in an area that no one should ever be exposed to scalding liquids, she suffered extensive third-degree burns that required skin grafting and physical therapy, along with extensive nerve damage.
It's really not much different from me handing you boiling water in a paper cup, then wondering how you can be upset when you (inevitably) find it literally too hot to handle.
With the next logic step being, shove it right in your junk
Moore is just another person looking for a handout. It has to be said, this stuff happened all the time in junior, in the minors, guys got caught up in something, bang, injury, career over. Didn't end in lawsuits, didn't lead to anything, just the way life goes sometimes.
You play a brutal sport, everything that happens on the ice is basically part of the risk you take by lacing up those skates.
Steve Moore can't even live his life normally due to a vicious attack by Todd Bertuzzi. Imagine if you were playing beer league hockey and someone broke your neck and gave you brain damage, forcing you to quit your job. Would you move on, telling yourself it's "just the way life goes sometimes"?
Some of the responses in this thread are repulsive.
But your honor, yes, I shoot the tires out on his car while he was driving, but it was when the car rolled and hit the wall that he was injured! If the derp fits, you must acquit!
Those are absolutely the same thing, no fallacy here
It was no accident. I wish it was the league itself being pursued rather than just Bertuzzi and party. IMO the league has set the stage for this type of bull to happen and should be paying the price. Maybe it would clean up its act and enforce the rules better.
The NHL can't even enforce goaltending interference properly, so that's a lot to ask
Moore is just another person looking for a handout. It has to be said, this stuff happened all the time in junior, in the minors, guys got caught up in something, bang, injury, career over. Didn't end in lawsuits, didn't lead to anything, just the way life goes sometimes.
You play a brutal sport, everything that happens on the ice is basically part of the risk you take by lacing up those skates.
Nope, there's a fundamental difference between a hard body check that results in injury and being chased around the ice and sucker-punched. One is a reasonable expectation of the risk you take when playing hockey the other is a criminal act. Just because it takes place in the context of sport doesn't make it any less illegal or wrong. It's the same reason you can't start using your stick as a weapon.
If someone intentionally assaults you and caused you an injury that seriously impairs the rest of your life I'm sure you'll want to have that person punished as well. No better way to go after a person than to go after their money. Especially when they still are able to go out and earn millions of dollars every year while you continue to suffer.
With the next logic step being, shove it right in your junk
Since McDonald's served most of their coffee in the mornings at a drive-through, a person being handed a cup of excessively hot coffee is going to be seated. So it doesn't matter if the person places it between their legs or drops it en route to a cup holder; there's a small area where that scalding liquid is guaranteed to end up.
