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ATD 2012 Line-up Assassination Thread

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Old
03-22-2012, 01:16 PM
  #326
monster_bertuzzi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Coaching and leadership

Keenan is a great coach - IMO, he should be in the HHOF for his contributions towards the modern short shift game. Those Flyers were not the most talented on paper, but they were arguably the second best team of the mid-late 80s in part because they kept coming in waves and tired the opponents out. But he is not the easiest to build a team for. Any sissy players are going to be driven insane and probably benched.

You don't really have any sissy forwards, but Gordie Drillon is going to spend an awful lot of time on the bench for cherry picking. Keenan is also going to ride your top 4 defense hard (maybe too hard) because I don't see him being a fan of the Reinhart-Turnbull pairing.

I honestly don't see what Torts brings to the table. Keenan is a hardass who could probably use a player's coach as an assistant for the players to vent their frustrations to. Instead, you got him a lesser hardass. Torts won't hurt you, I just can't see him helping much.

Schmidt is a great captain and Langway an outstanding A. Lots of secondary leadership with Johnson, Foote, and Starshinov among others.

Forwards:

Schmidt is an all-rounder - great leader, a physical brute, very good defensively, and good in the offensive zone. His one weakness is carrying the puck - Bobby Bauer was main puck carrier and dangled for the Krauts. Gordie Drillon has one of the most accurate shots ever, but he can't carry the puck when cherry picking. Jackson is a very fast player who drives the net with reckless abandon - he'll have to carry the puck more often than ideal. Once in the offensive zone, this line will be very dangerous - both Jackson and Schmidt can both score and pass, and Drillon is at home in front of the net, where his shot is absolutely lethal. This line is net neutral defensively I think - Schmidt is very good, but he'll have his hands full with Drillon, who might be the laziest defensive player in the draft.

Larionov passing to Martin should be quite effective in the offensive zone. Robert is an effective physical presence, but his offense is a bit subpar for a scoring line - when you consider who he got to play with, I don't see him as necessary better with the puck than Shane Doan. This line also is a bit weak in transition - Larionov was a great two-way center, but he got a lot of help in puck handling from Makarov and Krutov, while Martin and Robert were used to Gilbert Perrault. He's much better defensively than Perrault, and overall the line is a defensive plus.

I just don't see the 3rd line working. Starsh is a physical presence, and a great goal scorer, but his offensive game seems limited to the very front of the net. He's definitely not the set up man Gagne needs to be effective. Rousseau is a good puck handler and
Playmaker, but I don't think he's really enough to carry the playmaking for two pure shooters.
The line will be a plus defensively though.


Fourth Line seems like the kind that won't get much ice time, but will be given spot duty for defensive draws, much like Chicago used John Madden when they won the Cup. Kesler and Langenbrunner are suited for the role and both can chip in points as well. Maltby is the right kind of player; just not sure about his talent level.

Carr is a good spare and seems more versatile than we thought. Lucic? Put him back in the oven - he is isn't ready. Whats the plan of a center is injured?

Defense

You have arguably the best shut down pair in the draft with Langway and T Johnson. They are. Very physical too. Won't provide much offensive support, but Johnson can get the puck to the forwards. This pair will be excellent in their own zone, but won't handle the puck very often.

Second pairing is pretty weak from a talent perspective. I don't see a legit #3 on your team. But they are a good contrasting mix of styles, and Hartsburg provides much needed help to the transition game.

Reinhart is a great offensive guy who is ok in his own zone. It seems "time at forward" helps explain why he out up such great numbers with relatively little Norris consideration. I honestly think that's beneficial to him - his very strong numbers have a little bit of their mister taken off, but he's decent in his own zone. I think he's a high end #5/low end #4 fringe guy. The problem is that I don't know if he's good enough defensively to cover for the offense-only Turnball. This is by far your best pair in transition, but it is also going to run into problems in their own zone.

Lumme is nothing special as a spare, but he won't be exposed during spot duty.

Goaltending

Dryden is great. I have him in the 5-7 range with Brodeur and Hall.
He's probably #7 due to lack of career value, but he probably peaked higher than either. He was a cool customer, so I see him being able to handle things when Keenan impulsively yanks him as Keenan is prone to do. IMO, Cheevers is traditionally overrated by draft position, but he's still a very good backup with experience in a platoon situation in Boston.

Special teams

PP forwards are excellent. Drillon and Starshinov are not versatile players, but they are excellent net guys who should really help your PP. The rest of the PP forwards are good.

Reinhart is a solid PP point man, Turnball is probably best on a 2nd PP. Hartsburg is solid on a 2nd unit; T Johnson seems below average. When you picked defensive defensemen as your first 3 defensemen, you were pretty much guaranteed to have weak point men, but you did pretty well with who you did pick. Still below average though.

PK defensemen are strong; the forwards less so. I'd prefer Kesler to have a longer track record before putting him on a 1st PK unit, but he's okay. Not so sure about Maltby, who was usually a second unit PKer in real life.

Schmidt is a good second unit forward; Gagne less good but not awful.

Overall:

Other than Drillon's cherry picking, this team should be very strong in the defensive zone, unless the third D pairing is out. Three waves of forwards who are strong in the offensive zone. I think the third line is less than the sum of its parts, but the parts are still strong.

I think your biggest weakest is the lack of natural puck carriers, which could hurt the transition game.
Thanks. I agree with pretty much everything except the 3rd line having problems gelling. Starsh was more than just goal scorer camping out in front of the net from all reports. Good playermaker with great vision? No, but he was a wild-man who will make the smaller Rousseau comfortable to make plays.

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Old
03-22-2012, 01:21 PM
  #327
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a few changes to my line-up.

Winnipeg Falcons

Robitaille - Delvecchio (A) - Alfredsson
Shanahan (A) - Datsyuk - Oatman
Sharp - Lepine - Graham
Sid Smith - Steen - Paiement
Tardif - Sheppard

Stevens (C) - Svedberg
Steve Smith - McCrimmon
Svehla - Magnuson
Kjell Samuelsson

Terry Sawchuk
Kiprusoff

PP1:
Robitaille - Datsyuk - Alfredsson
Delvecchio - Svedberg

PP2:
Shanahan - Lepine - Oatman
Stevens - Svehla

PK1:
Lepine - Graham
Syevens - McCrimmon

PK2:
Steen - Alfredsson
Smith - Svehla

PK3:
Datsyuk - Delvecchio
McCrimmon - Svedberg

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Old
03-22-2012, 01:37 PM
  #328
vecens24
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Ruotsalainen played forward only very briefly for the Rangers from my recollection. Perhaps he should have played there more, but Plex was a defenseman in New York. Can't comment on his career in Finland.
If you look in my bio I think I have it exactly how often he played there. His big offensive season he played 32 games at forward (with Pavelich and Hedberg I believe), and he played there a little bit in '83 I believe, if you check the bio it's all there for sure.

By the way I'm still formulating a response to the thing with old-time defensemen vs. modern defensemen yesterday (just woke up an hour ago and I'm still a little drunk, give me a little time).

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03-22-2012, 02:06 PM
  #329
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Another one of the teams that I think has a good shot at winning the Cup this season, this is maybe the biggest oddball of them all, with forward lines built from the wing in, but a coach who can tie it all together. A very interesting entry.

Goal: I am a big fan of Vezina, who I think has been underrated in this thing for a long time. That being said, when I said I think he may be as good as Eddie Belfour, that's what I meant. It was on the assumption that more research would be done on him and more positive information would come out. I told both of the GMs with whom I discussed Vezina this season that drafting him would mean doing some work in research to prove his value, because I don't think the evidence is quite there yet. That MacLean's 1925 all-time list is a nice feather in his cap, but Vezina was dying by then and it may have affected how things turned out. Anyway, without new information, I'm not comfortable putting him higher than the Smith/Holecek tier of goalies in the ATD, which is to say that you got a nice value in Vezina, but not an extravagant one. A solid, roughly average starter who you picked up at good value.

Defense: Very strong, mobile and physical top pairing. I am maybe Brad Park's biggest fan here. Not much to say, other than that the pairing is very good. Stuart - Crawford is also one of the better second pairings in the league. Hod Stuart is a controversial figure because of the era in which he played, and I don't agree with his placement in the HOH top-60 project, which I think involved a lot of sunshine, and looking at the lists from a few of the voters (which unfortunately drives the voting order), more than a little confusion. Nevertheless, Stuart is a high-end two-way #3 defenseman and Crawford is one of the elite #4s. Overall, excellent defense.

Forwards: You did a good job throughout drafting for value with your forwards, but I think you did a much more questionable job in building actual good lines. Building from the wing in is not for the faint of heart, and I think you did it more out of necessity than design because the centers you were waiting for (Hawerchuk/Savard and Frederickson, I believe) kept getting scooped right before your picks. Nevertheless, you picked the right coach to make this system work. The best single piece of advice I may have given in this draft was when I told you to lay off of Al Arbour and look at Lester Patrick to coach your team. That's not because I think Patrick was better than Arbour (though they may be equals), but because Arbour was a system coach who purged players he didn't like in his early days on the Island, while Patrick is arguably the most creative hockey mind of all-time, and the exact right guy to pull together what are strange forward lines.

The Lindsay - Selanne duo at wing on the first line is obviously very strong, but as you said, Duke Keats is pretty much the Steve Rucchin of the ATD. You didn't push him as hard as jarek did, but I think your claim that he was a top-5 forward for five years was a stretch. Keats really only has one season where he performed at a high offensive level against strong competition (one year in the consolidated WHL/PCHA western league), and the rest of the time he was either putting up so-so offensive performances against good competition or dominating scrubs. Keats brings physicality and above average to good checking, but that comes along with poor skating and an offensive resume which isn't thrilling even for a second line center. Keats will be of value hanging as a defensive safety valve against counterattacks when Lindsay and Selanne are rushing the puck, but he's not going to be valuable as a backchecker, and unless you know something about Ted Lindsay's backchecking that I do not (if you answered my earlier question, I missed it), that line looks like it's going to leave the door open to quick counterattacks, when it loses the puck in the offensive zone.

The second line is ok. St. Louis is a strong second line winger, but Stuart is the proverbial warm body offensively on an ATD scoringline who is basically there to bang bodies and create space for his diminutive linemates. And that brings us to Bowie...a somewhat controversial figure. There is no doubt that Bowie had a lot of offensive skill and was a great goalscorer. That being said, I think he is one of the old-time players who most likely hides in the fog of ignorance that he have surrounding his career and era. It is easy to see the positives in a guy like Bowie (they are recorded in the boxscore), but very hard to clearly identify the negatives...and so I think these players often get overrated. There is a lot of smoke with Bowie, and I think there is fire when it comes to his intangibles. He was tiny and obviously soft, liked to dive, and seems to have been a puckhog on otherwise uninteresting offensive teams. If Bowie played in the modern era, I think there's a good chance we would have as many flattering things to say about his all-around game as we have to say about Ilya Kovalchuk's. Live by the sword...

Martin St. Louis likes to carry the puck, and I'm not sure how well that meshes with Bowie, who like I said, seems to have liked ragging the puck quite a bit himself. Nevertheless, the two of them will be spectacular at times attacking in transition. Down low is I think where this line runs into problems. Both St. Louis and Bowie are miniscule, and the only guy with size and strength on the line is not a good puck handler by ATD scoringline standards. I don't see this unit having much success at cycling the puck. St. Louis is obviously a big plus defensively, but he is a wing, and I think Bowie is an obvious minus defensively. Stuart seems to be neutral. Given the difference in defensive roles between center and the wing, I would be tempted to call this line below average defensively, though Patrick can likely coach around that, at least in transition. Bowie is possibly the worst defensive center in the draft in his own zone, however, and that is a concern. I would not want this unit to meet Keystone's LOD line. An ultimately average to below average second line, I think, that will struggle against teams with strong transition defense.

I think you got Marcotte at a very nice value where you took him to start your third line. He is generally underrated around here, especially as he could play both wings (wouldn't want him as a center), and is not that far from the elite among third liners. I am less a fan of Laprade, whose offense I think you overrated earlier, but he is ok as a two-way center. Getliffe seems to me to be a low-end third liner who could play both ways, but was not particularly good by ATD third line standards. It ends up being about an average two-way 3rd line. Above-average checking, but not much offense, and I think it will struggle to hold onto the puck because the hand skills are not really there. Edgar Laprade may be able to rag the puck against scoringlines with poor defensive centers, but this unit will not match up well against two way units.

Overall: A very interesting team. Reminds me a bit of nik's team in that it is built around defense and goaltending with flawed forward lines. Unlike nik's team, you have built from the outside in rather than vice-versa, which is interesting and unusual. This team's success may well be determined by the matchups it faces. Teams that can shadow Lindsay/Selanne will give it a lot of problems offensively, and in general strong transition defense is likely your achilles heel, because once those lines get down low, they are vulnerable.

You did a nice job with this team dealing with what looked from my perspective like some persistent bad luck, and Lester Patrick will cover a lot of blemishes. It will be interesting to see how this team fares in the matchups.
thanks for the review

•after drafting Lindsay, I did want to put a big emphasis in getting him the best possible opposite wing, because that's how he had success in real life - remember at one point i was trying to draft up for Bathgate or Makarov. But you're right in that I originally didn't plan to wait so long for a center - the 60 pick wait between my picks made it impossible to get decent value on a center for the first few rounds as centers got scooped up faster than ever. And for whatever reason, I was unable to make good trades to space my picks out better like I could in ATD 2010

•don't give yourself too much credit Sturm. By the time I was looking at coaches, Patrick was my first choice and Shero/Ivan were the backups. I asked you about Arbour when it looked like he was falling to me because he would have been good value - but you basically confirmed what I already thought about the fit.

•Ted Lindsay's defense (from his profile):

Quote:
Originally Posted by red storey, former referee
He might have been the best left winger of all time, complete
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Orr, Journalist
On any list of the greatest left wings to play, Ted Lindsay had to be right at the very top. With his leadership, his determination, his scoring stats, his toughness, his defensive ability, his ability to get under the skin of opponents... He was lucky he didn't have to face a lynch mob of the other players in the league!
These are from his LOH video. I'm pretty sure Lindsay is the one who criticized Maurice Richard for not backchecking and said he'd never get away with that in Detroit.

Ted Lindsay was a relentless player. He would not sacrifice O for D - he and Howe went hard on O with Abel there to back them up. But I think once the puck went the other way, Ted was as relentless on the backcheck as the forecheck.

•I asked you or anyone else in the thread, is there evidence Keats was a slug before 1928, when he was gaining weight an a year before retirement? Seems strange to think a guy who was praised for his backchecking in his prime can't do it here at all.

•I realize lines with the offense driven by the wings isn't common in the current NHL, but it used to be common, and it's still common in Europe. And it's not totally foreign to the current NHL (The A line in NJ is a perfect example of a glue guy center between two skilled wingers). So I don't know why Keats needs to be compared to other centers. Comparing him to "glue guy winger," I like him better than Neely, Gary Roberts, or Glenn Anderson, just to name a few in my division.

•I agree Bowie isn't going to be useful without the puck. St Louis is a good backchecker and Stuart a physical beast, so he doesn't need to do anything but score goals.

But he was do much better offensively than anyone else of his era, I can't help but think he's one of the best second line goal scorers in the draft. I realize hockey developed a ton between the Bowie and the Cyclone Taylor generations, but it is just one generation.

•One intangible Bowie has (if you want to call it that) was a drive to score goals no matter what, even in dirty areas in tight; I don't think the same could be said for Kovalchuk.

•Bowie the worst defensive center in his own zone? Way to make things up out of thin air. Even if he doesn't care about D at all, he still spent the majority of his career at rover. I realize that does't mean he was good defensively, but it means he, by the nature of the position, would go back into his own need after the puck. So at the very least, he's not a cherrypicker. I agree he isn't going to be doing much but be present defensively, but it's better to be present than not. I totally understand calling him a "nonfactor," but calling him "the worst" is ridiculous when we have specific evidence of other Cs cherry picking.

•Bruce Stuart handling the puck:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, Feb 1, 1909
Ottawa in the first half looked better than at any time this season. Bruce Stuart played his best game of the year and was really the star of the Ottawa team in the night's play. He worked without a letup, although evidently suffering from his bad knee in the second half. He was the best puck carrier for Ottawa and bored in more successfully than any forward on the ice. Walsh and Stuart made a dangerous pair in mid-ice.
•if I face the Lindros line, I want to get the Keats line against him as much as possible. I also think Lindros' power game is much more dangerous in the D zone than the neutral zone, and defensemen are much more informant than forwards in the D zone. Anyway, that's an argument I'll save for the playoffs.

•what are your thoughts on swapping Gaye Stewart and Getliffe to give the third line more offensive punch?


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-22-2012 at 04:06 PM.
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Old
03-22-2012, 03:08 PM
  #330
Velociraptor
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
L'équipe nationale de France

(1928-2012)

Head Coach: Jacques Lemaire

Frank Mahovlich (A) - Sidney Crosby (A) - Didier Pitre
Paul Thompson - Milan Novy (A) - Odie Cleghorn
Nick Metz - Ralph Backstrom - Floyd Curry
Jaroslav Jirik - Billy Burch - Alf Skinner
Buddy O'Connor (C)
Harry Oliver (RW, C)
John Ferguson (LW, RW)

Valeri Vasiliev (C) - Jan Suchy
Moose Vasko - Frank Patrick
Taffy Abel - Jiri Bubla
Behn Wilson

Dominik Hasek
Chuck Rayner


Powerplay:
Frank Mahovlich - Sidney Crosby - Didier Pitre
Jan Suchy - Jiri Bubla

Paul Thompson - Odie Cleghorn - Milan Novy
Valery Vasiliev - Frank Patrick

Penalty Kill:
Floyd Curry - Nick Metz
Moose Vasko - Valery Vasiliev
Dominik Hasek

Paul Thompson - Ralph Backstrom
Taffy Abel - Jan Suchy
Dominik Hasek

Frank Mahovlich - Sidney Crosby
Elmer Vasko - Valery Vasiliev
Dominik Hasek
I like people who make bios and link them

I will continue my divisional assassinating with number four on L'équipe nationale de France.

First Line: I think it's a very offensively sufficient first line, but it's not very flattering defensively. Mahovlich was a little bit physical, but he wasn't mean by any measure. Like my first line, I think there will have to be some puck-winning by committee. Crosby is a good first line centre, and there's to very capable goal scoring players on the wings.

Second Line: Milan Novy appears to be a solid two-way centre, Odie Cleghorn is a good goal-scoring right winger who definitely fits in well with Novy. Thompson is a good two-way guy to have, this line definitely works better defensively than the first. They will contribute offense and be able to play responsible defense as well.

Third Line: Three defensive specialists makes for a very strong shutdown line, that is also pretty good offensively. One thing I see missing (correct me if I'm wrong) is a playmaking presence, I know all three could score goals, but I don't know how they'll score. Should be a pain in the ass for opposing forwards to play against.

Fourth Line: Very versatile fourth line with lots of intangibles, Jirik plays both wings, Burch can play all three forward positions. Alf Skinner was a strong defensive player who also wasn't bad offensively. Burch was a good playmaking centre and you have two capable goalscorers on both sides.

Forwards: Consistent group of forwards that can shimmer with defensive brilliance (outside of the first line) Jacques Lemaire could benefit from having a roster like this.

First Pair: Vasiliev is a lower-end #1, but definitely not a bad #1. Vasiliev the punishing defensive defenseman, Suchy the offensive specialist. Makes for a strong contrasting pair.

Second Pair: Good second pairing, makes up for the lack of high-end defensemen on the first pairing. Vasko is a solid defenseman, and Frank Patrick is a fine mate for Moose. They complement each other nicely.

Third Pair: I think Abel is a decent defenseman, he's tough and paired next to Bubla, who I consider a wild card. A tough bottom pair, with a passable offensive upside, unspectacular bottom pairing.

Goaltending: If not the best, top-3 goaltender for sure, Hasek will backstop the team to many wins and will steal games on occasion. Also a flattering playoff resume. I think Rayner is the best backup as well, better than at least six starters. Top goaltending tandem in the league.

Spares: lots of versatility on the spares, Wilson is a good defenseman who fits in offensively or defensively.

Coaching: Your team plays responsibly defensively, that's what Lemaire likes to see, his trap style works with this team. Although his temper may be short with the first line, which is nowhere near either of the other three lines defensively.

Special Teams: Look good to me, PP is the same first two lines and decent PP blueliners. First unit PK forwards are very strong.

Overall: I think it's a good thing you have the best goaltender in the ATD when it comes to playing in the trap system. Sometimes I can see it as a 'playing not to lose' type of deal, where one-goal leads can diminish with one miscue. Could be a strong contender, or a middle of the pack team, a team that could come alive big time in the playoffs.


Last edited by Velociraptor: 03-22-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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Old
03-22-2012, 03:43 PM
  #331
Sturminator
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Chicago Shamrocks


Head Coach: Tommy Ivan
Goaltending Coach: Warren Strelow
Captain: Bill Cook
Alternate Captains: Reg Noble, Art Ross, Ching Johnson


Reg Noble - Howie Morenz - Vladimir Martinec
George Hay - Frank Fredrickson - Bill Cook
Marty Pavelich - Ken Mosdell - John "Pie" McKenzie
Tommy Smith - Doug Weight - Bruce MacGregor


Bill Quackenbush
- Ching Johnson
Art Ross - Bob Goldham
Brian Engblom - Ted Green


Tom Barrasso
Mike Liut


Spares: Metro Prystai (LW/C/RW), Mathieu Schneider (D), Joe Watson (D)


PP1
Vladimir Martinec - Howie Morenz - Bill Cook
Bill Quackenbush - Art Ross

PP2
Tommy Smith - Frank Fredrickson - George Hay
Ted Green - Doug Weight


PK1
Marty Pavelich - Ken Mosdell
Ching Johnson - Bob Goldham

PK2
Reg Noble - Bruce MacGregor
Brian Engblom - Ted Green

Extra PK F: Howie Morenz
Extra PK D: Bill Quackenbush


Estimated Regular Season Minutes
FORWARDS
Player ES PP PK Total
Noble 15.5 0 2.5 18
Morenz 15.5 4 1 20.5
Martinec 15 4 0 19
Hay 13.5 3 0 16.5
Frederickson 13.5 3 0 16.5
Cook 16 4 0 20
Pavelich 11 0 4 15
Mosdell 11 0 3.5 14.5
McKenzie 10 0 0 10
Smith 6 3 0 9
Weight 6 3 0 9
MacGregor 5 0 3 8
TOTAL 138 24 14 176
*Bill Cook will take occassional shifts on the 3rd and 4th lines and if the opportunity presents will play on the 1st line at the end of games/periods

DEFENSEMEN
Player ES PP PK Total
Quackenbush 19.5 4 0 23.5
Johnson 19.5 0 4 23.5
Ross 16 4 0 20
Goldham 14.5 0 4 18.5
Green 12 3 3 18
Engblom 10.5 0 3 13.5
TOTAL 92 11 14 117
*Ted Green will take occassional shifts with Art Ross

Grand TOTAL 230 35 28 293
This is another one of the franchises that I think is a legit contender for the title this season. A sharp attacking squad with a high-end offensive coach, this is a team after my own heart.

Goal: You got a great value in Barrasso at almost pick #500. He had an up-and-down career, but his highs were very high and his lows were mostly injury related, which I just don't think is that meaningful for a goalie in the 1-season ATD scenario. A strong playoff performer and a very underrated puckmover from goal (where I think he was as good as Brodeur at handling the puck). A low-end ATD goalie, but a great value, and potentially a guy who can steal you a game or two in the playoffs. Barrasso is well-suited to this team's style, having played his best hockey behind the run-and-gun Penguins teams.

Defense: The top pairing is below average. I like Quackenbush, but he is definitely on the bottom-end of ATD #1s. Although Johnson is an above-average #2 and they complement one another well, it is still ultimately a below-average pairing.

The second pairing looks about average to me. I think Ross and Goldham both fall into that #3/#4 fringe group of defensemen, and they complement one another's styles quite well. Ross is an ancient player and AST records beyond 5th are missing for big chunks of Goldham's prime...so it is something of a mystery pairing and valuations may vary widely from GM to GM.

Forwards: The top line duo of Morenz - Martinec is highly skilled and creative. They will be an absolute menace in transition, and I don't expect slow-footed defensemen to have much of a chance of containing them. Noble rounds out the unit very well, providing even more speed, as well as physicality and an excellent defensive conscience while bringing at least decent scoringline offense. He's not a strong first line scorer, but he's also not just "there" like some scoringline glue guys in the league. I have warmed up to Reg Noble over the years, and now consider him one of the better glue guys in the ATD. Morenz had some jam and wasn't a bad two-way player himself, so you've got the intangibles well covered here. Just a very well-built top line.

The Frederickson - Cook duo is ridiculous on a second line. George Hay is a low-end ATD scoringliner, but Frederickson - Cook is so good it's still a very dangerous line that will be deadly offensively whenever it has the puck, and can create matchup problems with its size/speed/skill combination for any opponents who aren't well-rounded players. The one thing that is lacking here is defense. Frederickson will provide you with some backchecking, but he probably shouldn't be the best checker on an ATD line if it is expected to be good defensively. I think you'd have been better off with more of a defensive player where you took Hay, because he's not adding that much offensively, anyway, but it's not a big deal. This second unit is going to create a lot of action going both ways.

The third line is built around two excellent checkers in Pavelich and Mosdell. MacKenzie is just an average to below-average ATD 3rd liner who was a strong checker and pest, but not much offensively. It is very much a "pure shutdown unit" which will mount little offense (I know about Mosdell's scoring exploits, but I think they are mostly a mirage) and at any rate has almost no playmaking so the goals it scores will mostly be dirty ones. The line can certainly check, but will struggle to control the puck for more than a few seconds, and will provide little in the way of secondary scoring.

Overall: A very strong offensive team will be very difficult to keep off the scoreboard, but with a below-average defense. The parts fit together quite well in general. Ivan is a high-end coach and was a strong choice for your team, and Barrasso was a great value and is at his best when he sees a lot of shots. The third line will be useful for harrassing opposing scoringlines, but it will wear down against two-way units that can easily win back the puck. This team may be vulnerable to puck-possession teams who can play keepaway from the second and third lines, which are not great two-way units, but in general this is not really a team that will play to matchups. A strong contender.

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03-22-2012, 05:02 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Ted Lindsay's defense (from his profile):
I'm sure Ted will backcheck, but his defensive reputation is not really all that great, and he spent a lot of years as the third best checking forward on his own line (behind guys like Abel, Delvecchio and Howe). Heavy defensive responsibilities are not something I think Lindsay had in real life. I'm sure he can adapt, but it is not ideal.

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I asked you or anyone else in the thread, is there evidence Keats was a slug before 1928, when he was gaining weight an a year before retirement? Seems strange to think a guy who was praised for his backchecking in his prime can't do it here at all.
Hockey was, in general, played at a much slower pace in Keats' generation when the players played almost the entire game. Weak skating would have been a much smaller issue in checking than it is in the modern game. This is precisely why I have always avoided poor skaters from Keats' era like the plague. I don't think their games translate at face value to the way hockey is currently played. Keats was almost certainly a slow skater even at his peak, though I doubt he was a complete slug for his whole career, no.

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I realize lines with the offense driven by the wings isn't common in the current NHL, but it used to be common, and it's still common in Europe. And it's not totally foreign to the current NHL (The A line in NJ is a perfect example of a glue guy center between two skilled wingers). So I don't know why Keats needs to be compared to other centers. Comparing him to "glue guy winger," I like him better than Neely, Gary Roberts, or Glenn Anderson, just to name a few in my division.
You are playing something of a shell-game with this argument. There is a disproportionate amount of talent historically at the center position, so a center taken at the same point and for the same role in the draft should be better than a similar winger. No mystery there. Apropos nothing, I don't have Keats in the top-50 centers of all-time.

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Bowie the worst defensive center in his own zone? Way to make things up out of thin air.
Says the guy who compared Helmut Balderis to Pavel Bure.

There is a lot of material on Bowie at this point. I have read all of what's in the profiles, and have not found a single reference to his checking or defensive game. Even guys who were probably average defensive players like Cy Denneny get mentioned occasionally for their checking, but with Bowie there is nothing. Given the mass of quotes we now have on this player, it is a rather "loud" silence.

Also, Bowie played many years with Blair Russel as his center...the Blair Russel who is known as a strong checker. It appears to be the case that Russel was the defensive conscience of those Victorias teams at center ice. In the era of 7 man hockey (with essentially two centers), a guy like Bowie could afford to play offense only with a player like Russel covering his back. This is most likely exactly what happened.

So we have a player in Bowie who, based on what we understand of his teams, likely had minimal defensive responsibilities during his actual career, and was very small even by the standards of his era. Combine that with the lack of any reference to Bowie's defense in a good-sized volume of information, and what are we supposed to think? I consider Bowie a clear liability in his own zone. Every GM can make up his own mind on the subject, but that is my honest opinion. I think you take the good with the bad in Bowie. The good is that he is tremendously talented. The bad is that he is a tiny pond hockey player, and I mean that in the literal sense, as Bowie likely never played hockey indoors.

You can give Stuart the center's assignment in the defensive zone (he played all positions and with Patrick behind the bench it is perfectly plausible), but that leaves you with two very small players up high trying to clear the zone. It still might be better than giving Bowie the center's checking assignments, but I think its going to be hard to scheme around this line's defensive issues in it's own zone.

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what are your thoughts on swapping Gaye Stewart and Getliffe to give the third line more offensive punch?
I would recommend doing exactly that. Getliffe wasn't such a super checker that you lose so much by swapping him out for Stewart, and you may even get most of the defensive value back simply because the line will have more of the puck with a more credible counterattack. Stewart is probably too good to be a 4th liner, anyway.

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03-22-2012, 05:38 PM
  #333
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This is another one of the franchises that I think is a legit contender for the title this season. A sharp attacking squad with a high-end offensive coach, this is a team after my own heart.

Goal: You got a great value in Barrasso at almost pick #500. He had an up-and-down career, but his highs were very high and his lows were mostly injury related, which I just don't think is that meaningful for a goalie in the 1-season ATD scenario. A strong playoff performer and a very underrated puckmover from goal (where I think he was as good as Brodeur at handling the puck). A low-end ATD goalie, but a great value, and potentially a guy who can steal you a game or two in the playoffs. Barrasso is well-suited to this team's style, having played his best hockey behind the run-and-gun Penguins teams.

Defense: The top pairing is below average. I like Quackenbush, but he is definitely on the bottom-end of ATD #1s. Although Johnson is an above-average #2 and they complement one another well, it is still ultimately a below-average pairing.

The second pairing looks about average to me. I think Ross and Goldham both fall into that #3/#4 fringe group of defensemen, and they complement one another's styles quite well. Ross is an ancient player and AST records beyond 5th are missing for big chunks of Goldham's prime...so it is something of a mystery pairing and valuations may vary widely from GM to GM.

Forwards: The top line duo of Morenz - Martinec is highly skilled and creative. They will be an absolute menace in transition, and I don't expect slow-footed defensemen to have much of a chance of containing them. Noble rounds out the unit very well, providing even more speed, as well as physicality and an excellent defensive conscience while bringing at least decent scoringline offense. He's not a strong first line scorer, but he's also not just "there" like some scoringline glue guys in the league. I have warmed up to Reg Noble over the years, and now consider him one of the better glue guys in the ATD. Morenz had some jam and wasn't a bad two-way player himself, so you've got the intangibles well covered here. Just a very well-built top line.

The Frederickson - Cook duo is ridiculous on a second line. George Hay is a low-end ATD scoringliner, but Frederickson - Cook is so good it's still a very dangerous line that will be deadly offensively whenever it has the puck, and can create matchup problems with its size/speed/skill combination for any opponents who aren't well-rounded players. The one thing that is lacking here is defense. Frederickson will provide you with some backchecking, but he probably shouldn't be the best checker on an ATD line if it is expected to be good defensively. I think you'd have been better off with more of a defensive player where you took Hay, because he's not adding that much offensively, anyway, but it's not a big deal. This second unit is going to create a lot of action going both ways.

The third line is built around two excellent checkers in Pavelich and Mosdell. MacKenzie is just an average to below-average ATD 3rd liner who was a strong checker and pest, but not much offensively. It is very much a "pure shutdown unit" which will mount little offense (I know about Mosdell's scoring exploits, but I think they are mostly a mirage) and at any rate has almost no playmaking so the goals it scores will mostly be dirty ones. The line can certainly check, but will struggle to control the puck for more than a few seconds, and will provide little in the way of secondary scoring.

Overall: A very strong offensive team will be very difficult to keep off the scoreboard, but with a below-average defense. The parts fit together quite well in general. Ivan is a high-end coach and was a strong choice for your team, and Barrasso was a great value and is at his best when he sees a lot of shots. The third line will be useful for harrassing opposing scoringlines, but it will wear down against two-way units that can easily win back the puck. This team may be vulnerable to puck-possession teams who can play keepaway from the second and third lines, which are not great two-way units, but in general this is not really a team that will play to matchups. A strong contender.
Thanks for the great review! I can't say there's anything I disagree with. Admittedly, George Hay is one of the players I researched the least on my team. I just did a little more in hopes of finding something on his defensive or two-way game, but didn't really find anything substantial. The best stuff that's out there are those that describe him as "aggressive" or "hard working" or "could do everything" or "willing to play any position." All that tells me is that he wasn't a liability defensively, which is probably what Cook is too (maybe with a small plus for his physical game).

I was able to find a nice article from after the 1923 WCHL season describing his play, which has been added to his bio. His versatility and selfishness remind me of Bun Cook, so I think he'll be a good fit offensively with his linemates.

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03-22-2012, 05:44 PM
  #334
Rob Scuderi
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Vancouver Millionares


Head coach: Mike Keenan
Assistant coach: John Tortorella
Captain: Milt Schmidt
Assistants: Rod Langway, Tom Johnson

''Busher'' Jackson - Milt Schmidt - Gordie Drillon
Rick Martin - Igor Larionov - Rene Robert
Simon Gagne - Slava Starshinov - Bobby Rousseau
Kirk Maltby - Ryan Kesler - Jamie Langenbrunner
Lorne Carr
Milan Lucic

Rod Langway - Tom Johnson
Craig Hartsburg - Adam Foote
Ian Turnbull - Paul Reinhart
Jyrki Lumme

Ken Dryden
Gerry Cheevers


PP #1:
Jackson-Schmidt-Drillon
Turnbull-Reinhart

PP #2:
Martin-Larionov-Starshinov
Hartsburg-Johnson

PK#1:
Maltby-Kesler
Langway-Johnson

PK#2:
Gagne-Schmidt
Hartsburg-Foote
Coaching
Two very demanding coaches that should get the best of this squad. I think Schmidt is a great player for the way these two want the game to be played. Players like Drillon could chafe under Keenan but I don't see many other players that would fall into that category.

Leadership
Schmidt is a great leader and overall you have decent leadership here. Langway and Johnson keep the letters together on a defensive pairing but Langenbrunner and Foote were considered leaders as veterans too.

First Line
Seems like it's impossible to go wrong with Schmidt. Big, great two-way game, and could pass it or shoot it effectively. Jackson is a good first liner as well whose shot should be put to good use. Drillon should be pretty useful to pick up garbage goals and create some havoc in front of the net. I don't think any stand out as below average first liners, even Drillon's if career was somewhat shorter. The only issue which has been mentioned is the lack of two-way play as Jackson and Drillon didn't seem to be the most dedicated backcheckers. Though when they're on the ice with Langway and Johnson I don't see why you'd have too much of an issue.

Second Line
I think you have two pretty good second liners in Martin and Larionov and one average one in Robert here (who I'd gladly take), but I think they should fit together well. Larionov will be great at getting the puck to Martin, and Robert's hardworking style and grittiness will make him a solid final piece. I think this a pretty good constructed line that should be able to score.

Third Line
I think this line is a bit more average than your first two. Rousseau is a good checker and Gagne is a good two-way guy and PKer. Starshinov is a great goal-scorer and physical but I'm not sure about his defensive game. I see him having tough time if he's lined up against an elite scorer. However this line should be potent on the counterattack. Gagne and Rousseau are both talented players that can pass it or shoot it. And that frees up Starshinov to do his thing in front of the net. Starshinov seems the player you needed to build around offensively and I think this is a good job of it.

Fourth Line
Decent fourth line. Kesler is a good fourth liner and PK guy. Langenbrunner is a solid player who brings a little bit of everything. I'm not the biggest Maltby fan but he brings a physical presence to the line.

First Pair
Great defensive-minded pair that should be very tough to score on with Dryden backing them up. I think both players are good in their roles as #1 and #2 and won't cause any worries in the transition game despite their defensive emphasis.

Second Pair
A contrast pair here with the rushing Hartsburg and defensive rock Foote. I think Hartsburg is below average as a #3 but he was a good two-way player who can contribute on both special teams. Foote seems like a perfect guy to hang back and allow Hartsburg to rush the puck often. I think he's a solid #4 here as well.

Third Pair
A pair of two-way defenders here that can be counted on for some offense. Reinhart's a good #5 and Turnbull's a fine #6 but I'm just not sure they're being put in the best position to succeed. Both want to move up in the play and create in the offensive zone. A stay at home guy would seem to be a better fit to fully utilize either player. That said they should be both dangerous threats when they have possession.

Spares
I think Lumme is a bit redundant with your options already. When Hartsburg misses a few games during the regular season things could get rough on that bottom pair. Carr is a solid scorer who really benefited from the move to Toronto from the lowly Americans.

Goalies
Dryden is a great starter and playoff performer. Not a lot needs to be said about him and he knows what it's like to play behind real talent. Cheevers is one of the best backups here. He shouldn't have to do much.

Special Teams
Pretty good first unit that should mesh quite well. Your second unit has a lot of talent on it as well. I don't see either unit struggling to create chances with the man advantage. Solid PK here too. Langway-Johnson is a really nice tandem for a top unit. I think both units should serve you well.

Overall I think you should be able to count on scoring from not just your top two lines, but with your bottom six as well. Starshinov is a solid scorer who should contribute well on your second PP. I think your defensive group is a bit less strong. They have some real offensive potency with Hartsburg, Turnbull, and Reinhart but I have doubts about the drop-off defensively between those second and third pairs. That said Dryden should go a long way in that area and I think team is a real contender for the division title.

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03-22-2012, 05:53 PM
  #335
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Coaching
Two very demanding coaches that should get the best of this squad. I think Schmidt is a great player for the way these two want the game to be played. Players like Drillon could chafe under Keenan but I don't see many other players that would fall into that category.

Leadership
Schmidt is a great leader and overall you have decent leadership here. Langway and Johnson keep the letters together on a defensive pairing but Langenbrunner and Foote were considered leaders as veterans too.

First Line
Seems like it's impossible to go wrong with Schmidt. Big, great two-way game, and could pass it or shoot it effectively. Jackson is a good first liner as well whose shot should be put to good use. Drillon should be pretty useful to pick up garbage goals and create some havoc in front of the net. I don't think any stand out as below average first liners, even Drillon's if career was somewhat shorter. The only issue which has been mentioned is the lack of two-way play as Jackson and Drillon didn't seem to be the most dedicated backcheckers. Though when they're on the ice with Langway and Johnson I don't see why you'd have too much of an issue.

Second Line
I think you have two pretty good second liners in Martin and Larionov and one average one in Robert here (who I'd gladly take), but I think they should fit together well. Larionov will be great at getting the puck to Martin, and Robert's hardworking style and grittiness will make him a solid final piece. I think this a pretty good constructed line that should be able to score.

Third Line
I think this line is a bit more average than your first two. Rousseau is a good checker and Gagne is a good two-way guy and PKer. Starshinov is a great goal-scorer and physical but I'm not sure about his defensive game. I see him having tough time if he's lined up against an elite scorer. However this line should be potent on the counterattack. Gagne and Rousseau are both talented players that can pass it or shoot it. And that frees up Starshinov to do his thing in front of the net. Starshinov seems the player you needed to build around offensively and I think this is a good job of it.

Fourth Line
Decent fourth line. Kesler is a good fourth liner and PK guy. Langenbrunner is a solid player who brings a little bit of everything. I'm not the biggest Maltby fan but he brings a physical presence to the line.

First Pair
Great defensive-minded pair that should be very tough to score on with Dryden backing them up. I think both players are good in their roles as #1 and #2 and won't cause any worries in the transition game despite their defensive emphasis.

Second Pair
A contrast pair here with the rushing Hartsburg and defensive rock Foote. I think Hartsburg is below average as a #3 but he was a good two-way player who can contribute on both special teams. Foote seems like a perfect guy to hang back and allow Hartsburg to rush the puck often. I think he's a solid #4 here as well.

Third Pair
A pair of two-way defenders here that can be counted on for some offense. Reinhart's a good #5 and Turnbull's a fine #6 but I'm just not sure they're being put in the best position to succeed. Both want to move up in the play and create in the offensive zone. A stay at home guy would seem to be a better fit to fully utilize either player. That said they should be both dangerous threats when they have possession.

Spares
I think Lumme is a bit redundant with your options already. When Hartsburg misses a few games during the regular season things could get rough on that bottom pair. Carr is a solid scorer who really benefited from the move to Toronto from the lowly Americans.

Goalies
Dryden is a great starter and playoff performer. Not a lot needs to be said about him and he knows what it's like to play behind real talent. Cheevers is one of the best backups here. He shouldn't have to do much.

Special Teams
Pretty good first unit that should mesh quite well. Your second unit has a lot of talent on it as well. I don't see either unit struggling to create chances with the man advantage. Solid PK here too. Langway-Johnson is a really nice tandem for a top unit. I think both units should serve you well.

Overall I think you should be able to count on scoring from not just your top two lines, but with your bottom six as well. Starshinov is a solid scorer who should contribute well on your second PP. I think your defensive group is a bit less strong. They have some real offensive potency with Hartsburg, Turnbull, and Reinhart but I have doubts about the drop-off defensively between those second and third pairs. That said Dryden should go a long way in that area and I think team is a real contender for the division title.
Thanks for the review!

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03-22-2012, 05:55 PM
  #336
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Thanks for the reviews. I've been really busy with school of late, but I'll try to address them and do a few of my own on the weekend.

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03-22-2012, 05:56 PM
  #337
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Thanks for the reviews. I've been really busy with school of late, but I'll try to address them and do a few of my own on the weekend.
I think your team will be my last review of our divison. Coming soon...

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03-22-2012, 05:58 PM
  #338
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Quick thought on Vancouver's D. Mike Keenan liked to ride his top 4 as much as possible. I might expect him to do the same here. If he isn't comfortable with his bottom pairing in all situations he'll use them sparingly.

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03-22-2012, 06:03 PM
  #339
TheDevilMadeMe
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Coaching
Two very demanding coaches that should get the best of this squad. I think Schmidt is a great player for the way these two want the game to be played. Players like Drillon could chafe under Keenan but I don't see many other players that would fall into that category.

Leadership
Schmidt is a great leader and overall you have decent leadership here. Langway and Johnson keep the letters together on a defensive pairing but Langenbrunner and Foote were considered leaders as veterans too.

First Line
Seems like it's impossible to go wrong with Schmidt. Big, great two-way game, and could pass it or shoot it effectively. Jackson is a good first liner as well whose shot should be put to good use. Drillon should be pretty useful to pick up garbage goals and create some havoc in front of the net. I don't think any stand out as below average first liners, even Drillon's if career was somewhat shorter. The only issue which has been mentioned is the lack of two-way play as Jackson and Drillon didn't seem to be the most dedicated backcheckers. Though when they're on the ice with Langway and Johnson I don't see why you'd have too much of an issue.

Second Line
I think you have two pretty good second liners in Martin and Larionov and one average one in Robert here (who I'd gladly take), but I think they should fit together well. Larionov will be great at getting the puck to Martin, and Robert's hardworking style and grittiness will make him a solid final piece. I think this a pretty good constructed line that should be able to score.

Third Line
I think this line is a bit more average than your first two. Rousseau is a good checker and Gagne is a good two-way guy and PKer. Starshinov is a great goal-scorer and physical but I'm not sure about his defensive game. I see him having tough time if he's lined up against an elite scorer. However this line should be potent on the counterattack. Gagne and Rousseau are both talented players that can pass it or shoot it. And that frees up Starshinov to do his thing in front of the net. Starshinov seems the player you needed to build around offensively and I think this is a good job of it.

Fourth Line
Decent fourth line. Kesler is a good fourth liner and PK guy. Langenbrunner is a solid player who brings a little bit of everything. I'm not the biggest Maltby fan but he brings a physical presence to the line.

First Pair
Great defensive-minded pair that should be very tough to score on with Dryden backing them up. I think both players are good in their roles as #1 and #2 and won't cause any worries in the transition game despite their defensive emphasis.

Second Pair
A contrast pair here with the rushing Hartsburg and defensive rock Foote. I think Hartsburg is below average as a #3 but he was a good two-way player who can contribute on both special teams. Foote seems like a perfect guy to hang back and allow Hartsburg to rush the puck often. I think he's a solid #4 here as well.

Third Pair
A pair of two-way defenders here that can be counted on for some offense. Reinhart's a good #5 and Turnbull's a fine #6 but I'm just not sure they're being put in the best position to succeed. Both want to move up in the play and create in the offensive zone. A stay at home guy would seem to be a better fit to fully utilize either player. That said they should be both dangerous threats when they have possession.

Spares
I think Lumme is a bit redundant with your options already. When Hartsburg misses a few games during the regular season things could get rough on that bottom pair. Carr is a solid scorer who really benefited from the move to Toronto from the lowly Americans.

Goalies
Dryden is a great starter and playoff performer. Not a lot needs to be said about him and he knows what it's like to play behind real talent. Cheevers is one of the best backups here. He shouldn't have to do much.

Special Teams
Pretty good first unit that should mesh quite well. Your second unit has a lot of talent on it as well. I don't see either unit struggling to create chances with the man advantage. Solid PK here too. Langway-Johnson is a really nice tandem for a top unit. I think both units should serve you well.

Overall I think you should be able to count on scoring from not just your top two lines, but with your bottom six as well. Starshinov is a solid scorer who should contribute well on your second PP. I think your defensive group is a bit less strong. They have some real offensive potency with Hartsburg, Turnbull, and Reinhart but I have doubts about the drop-off defensively between those second and third pairs. That said Dryden should go a long way in that area and I think team is a real contender for the division title.
BBS, you're way too nice . Calling Drillon a "not the best back checker" might be the understatement of the draft, and Turnball needs to be a presence in his own need before being called two-way, right?

It's definitely a solid entry though.

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03-22-2012, 06:06 PM
  #340
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BBS, you're way too nice . Calling Drillon a "not the best back checker" might be the understatement of the draft, and Turnball needs to be a presence in his own need before being called two-way, right?

It's definitely a solid entry though.
He was very generous calling Turnbull solid defensively, but I'll take it!

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03-22-2012, 06:13 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
BBS, you're way too nice . Calling Drillon a "not the best back checker" might be the understatement of the draft, and Turnball needs to be a presence in his own need before being called two-way, right?

It's definitely a solid entry though.
Yeah two-way certainly wouldn't be appropriate for Turnbull haha. To be honest, I didn't read up anything specific on Drillon's defense deficiencies without bios linked so I didn't want to just aimlessly pile on with the superlatives on his poor defensive game not knowing how poor it was.

I think while I'm at it, I oversold Gagne's playmaking. I originally typed up how I thought that if the third line would succeed in the counterrattack it would be more burying their chances than making fancy plays off the rush. I didn't realize Rousseau could pass it and thought he was a shoot-first guy, but at the same time does just his presence make up for the fact that Gagne and Starshinov are more likely to just rush it up the ice and look for a shot?

I'll try to be more critical as I move forward plus it'd probably be more helpful to be set straight on those comments.


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03-22-2012, 06:26 PM
  #342
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I think while I'm at it, I oversold Gagne's playmaking. I originally typed up how I thought that if the third line would succeed in the counterrattack it would be more burying their chances than making fancy plays off the rush. I didn't realize Rousseau could pass it and thought he was a shoot-first guy, but at the same time does just his presence make up for the fact that Gagne and Starshinov are more likely to just rush it up the ice and look for a shot?
Where is this idea that Gagne can't pass the puck in transition coming from?!? Sure his goal scoring exploded when he had a premiere center to play with, but he has always been a good all-around guy in my eyes.

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03-22-2012, 06:30 PM
  #343
BillyShoe1721
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Where is this idea that Gagne can't pass the puck in transition coming from?!? Sure his goal scoring exploded when he had a premiere center to play with, but he has always been a good all-around guy in my eyes.
Gagne wasn't totally inept at passing the puck, but he was a much more effective player when he was the main shooter. His success game when Forsberg was feeding him the puck, and Knuble was banging in the rebounds and deflecting pucks.

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03-22-2012, 06:32 PM
  #344
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Where is this idea that Gagne can't pass the puck in transition coming from?!? Sure his goal scoring exploded when he had a premiere center to play with, but he has always been a good all-around guy in my eyes.
It's not that he can't, I understand he's played with talent too so it's not like he's selfish. I just see him and Starshinov being more likely to quickly carry it the other way than setting up a play in transition. You may be right its be unfair, especially if I'm underrating Starshinov's playmaking which you alluded too in a different post. I just think that if there's a weakness with the group it's that they don't really have that great ATD calibre playmaker to make their counterattack game and chances off the rush that much more dangerous.

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03-22-2012, 07:25 PM
  #345
tony d
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Guelph Platers
1986 Memorial Cup Champions

Home Rink: Guelph Memorial Gardens (1948)
GM: BraveCanadian

Coaches: Pat Quinn, John Muckler
Captain: Joe Sakic
Alternates: Art Coulter, Si Griffis

Johnny Bucyk - Joe Sakic -Brett Hull
Jack Adams - Marty Barry - Bill Mosienko
Jere Lehtinen - Brad Richards - Marian Gaborik
John Madden - Mel Bridgman - Bobby Gould

Paul Coffey - Art Coulter
Gennady Tsygankov - Si Griffis
Bill Hajt - Hobey Baker

Grant Fuhr
Chris Osgood

Reserves
Adrian Aucoin - Bob Probert - Michal Handzus

Powerplay:
PP1: Johnny Bucyk - Joe Sakic - Brett Hull - Paul Coffey - Si Griffis
PP2: Jack Adams - Marty Barry - Bill Mosienko - Paul Coffey - Brad Richards

Penalty Kill:
PK1: Jere Lehtinen- John Madden - Bill Hajt - Art Coulter
PK2: Bobby Gould - Mel Bridgman - Gennady Tsygankov - Si Griffis
Keeping up on my daily trend of assisnating the teams in my division I do this one.

Line 1:

Perhaps one of the more under-rated players of all time Johnny Bucyk could do it all. I see him playing such a role on this line. Sakic is much the same type of player. He's a worthy choice as your captain here. He was someone who hardly ever complained despite the first few rough seasons in Quebec. Sakic is a great pick at #32 for you. On the surface Brett Hull appears to be offense-only but while he'll be the puck winner on this line I think he'll play a responsible 2-way game especially with Joe Sakic and Johnny Bucyk as his linemates. This is a really decent 1st line.

Line 2:

Jack Adams was known much more for his coaching career than for his playing career. Still he was a decent scorer during his NHL career. Barry was a great goal scorer during his career which is exemplified by his old nickname of "Goal A Game Barry" . Bill Mosienko is the superstar on this line IMO. I always thought of him as more of a goal scorer but I can see he had some good playmaking numbers during his career. Really nice 2nd line.

Line 3:

Jere Lehtinen is an elite defensive left winger but I think that's all he brings to the table. That said a guy as good defensively as Lehtinen is a definite asset here, solid pick. As far as elite playmakers go Brad Richards is one of the best currently in the NHL, he has 5 top 10 finishes in assists for a career. That's pretty good for a guy on your 3rd line. Really good playoff performer too, solid pick. Gaborik, when healthy, is a really good goal scorer. A Richards Gaborik duo should light up other teams, Lehtinen may get lost in the shuffle here but other than that it's a solid 3rd line.

Line 4:

John Madden is an elite checker, unsure on if he belongs in the ATD just yet but he's still a solid player nonetheless. He should fit in well with your 4th line. Mel Bridgman is a guy who brings a little of everything to your team, his scrapiness should fit in well with Madden. Bobby Gould completes your starting 12 forward corps. He can provide some offense but he is more of a defensive guy. Solid 4th line.

Spare Forwards:

Probert is probably the best enforcer in NHL history, he'll provide a good level of feistiness coming off the bench. Handzuz will provide a good defensive brand of hockey coming off your bench. He has 2 top 10 finishes in game winning goals so he could provide some clutch goals for your teams.

D Pairing 1:

Next to Bobby Orr Paul Coffey might be the best pure offensive defenseman in NHL history, his defensive game comes under fire but how can you ignore a guy who as a defenseman scored over 100 points 5 times? Coulter was more of a defensive defenseman which you need playing with Coffey, solid 1st pairing.

D Pairing 2:

Gennady Tsygankov reads as a good team player which is always important to have. He would put the play of his team ahead of his best interests, solid pick. Si Griffis reads as a good 2 way player who will focus more on offense. This looks like a really good 2 way pairing, really good pairing.

D Pairing 3:

Bill Hajt is one of the better shutdown defensemen in this draft, late in games he'll give opposing teams fits. Hobey Baker will provide offense from this pairing. It'll be interesting to see how these 2 mesh with such differing styles of play, good pairing nonetheless.

Defenseman Spare:

I think Aucoin can play both offense and defense, he should fit in well in your top 6 should any of your defensemen go down.

Goalies:

Grant Fuhr tends to be a bit over-rated in this. The guy was a solid goalie throughout his career but played on high-powered teams during his prime. Still a good goalie who should help your team.

I like Chris Osgood and find him under-rated around here. Like Fuhr Osgood played for a lot of great teams during his career. Like Fuhr you can question how much of Osgood's success had to do with the team. It's a solid duo but I will say that Fuhr goes to early in this and Osgood goes to late.

Coaching:

Pat Quinn is one of the top coaches in NHL history, he played a run and gun game with Toronto during the dead puck era and provided some exciting hockey.

While I am not in favour of assistant coaches in this I think that if you could pick any guy to be an assistant coach you should go with John Muckler. Muckler can step in and coach the defense while Quinn can coach the offense. Solid coaching duo.

Special Teams:

No real comments about the power play, only to say that as great as Coffey was on the power play he shouldn't play on 2 pairings and will get tired in doing so. Also where's Gaborik here?

That penalty kill is outstanding. All 8 of those guys are good defensive guys and won't look out of place on the PK. That 2nd PK unit could create some scoring opportunities for your team while short handed.

Final Thoughts:

Really good team here. Maybe another scoring left winger could have helped (Don't see the need for both Lehtinen and Madden). Also a goalie who proved he could win behind a non high powered team could help here. Other than that it's a good team, best of luck to you in the season and the playoffs.

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03-22-2012, 07:27 PM
  #346
EagleBelfour
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
I like people who make bios and link them

I will continue my divisional assassinating with number four on L'équipe nationale de France.

First Line: I think it's a very offensively sufficient first line, but it's not very flattering defensively. Mahovlich was a little bit physical, but he wasn't mean by any measure. Like my first line, I think there will have to be some puck-winning by committee. Crosby is a good first line centre, and there's to very capable goal scoring players on the wings.

Second Line: Milan Novy appears to be a solid two-way centre, Odie Cleghorn is a good goal-scoring right winger who definitely fits in well with Novy. Thompson is a good two-way guy to have, this line definitely works better defensively than the first. They will contribute offense and be able to play responsible defense as well.

Third Line: Three defensive specialists makes for a very strong shutdown line, that is also pretty good offensively. One thing I see missing (correct me if I'm wrong) is a playmaking presence, I know all three could score goals, but I don't know how they'll score. Should be a pain in the ass for opposing forwards to play against.

Fourth Line: Very versatile fourth line with lots of intangibles, Jirik plays both wings, Burch can play all three forward positions. Alf Skinner was a strong defensive player who also wasn't bad offensively. Burch was a good playmaking centre and you have two capable goalscorers on both sides.

Forwards: Consistent group of forwards that can shimmer with defensive brilliance (outside of the first line) Jacques Lemaire could benefit from having a roster like this.

First Pair: Vasiliev is a lower-end #1, but definitely not a bad #1. Vasiliev the punishing defensive defenseman, Suchy the offensive specialist. Makes for a strong contrasting pair.

Second Pair: Good second pairing, makes up for the lack of high-end defensemen on the first pairing. Vasko is a solid defenseman, and Frank Patrick is a fine mate for Moose. They complement each other nicely.

Third Pair: I think Abel is a decent defenseman, he's tough and paired next to Bubla, who I consider a wild card. A tough bottom pair, with a passable offensive upside, unspectacular bottom pairing.

Goaltending: If not the best, top-3 goaltender for sure, Hasek will backstop the team to many wins and will steal games on occasion. Also a flattering playoff resume. I think Rayner is the best backup as well, better than at least six starters. Top goaltending tandem in the league.

Spares: lots of versatility on the spares, Wilson is a good defenseman who fits in offensively or defensively.

Coaching: Your team plays responsibly defensively, that's what Lemaire likes to see, his trap style works with this team. Although his temper may be short with the first line, which is nowhere near either of the other three lines defensively.

Special Teams: Look good to me, PP is the same first two lines and decent PP blueliners. First unit PK forwards are very strong.

Overall: I think it's a good thing you have the best goaltender in the ATD when it comes to playing in the trap system. Sometimes I can see it as a 'playing not to lose' type of deal, where one-goal leads can diminish with one miscue. Could be a strong contender, or a middle of the pack team, a team that could come alive big time in the playoffs.
Thank You for the review, I will do your team tomorrow!

- With 3 of my 5 selection non-forwards, I was looking to get the best offensive players available. Mahovlich and Pitre were not terrible defensively: Mahovlich was actually quite decent in Montreal. Crosby is actually above average in the NHL, probably makes him average in here. There's obviously no great two-way forward on that line, it's a weakness I'll accept from my top offensive unit. As you said: I have three players able to retrieve pucks on their own.

- My second line is definitely a better defensive line than my first, but I wouldn't call it a true two-way line: as you wrote it so well ''They will contribute offense and be able to play responsible defense as well'' which is fair enough to me. I took these three players quite late in the draft compare to most teams, so I'm very happy the way it turned out.

- Ralph Backstrom will be the primary playmaker, although I will agree that the line tend to have more goalscorer than playmakers. I think that most great defensive forward with wheels (which all three have) gets their fair share of points by scoring on the counter attack, which results in more goals than creating offense by controlling the puck in the offensive zone. Klukay, Leswick, Provost from the O6 era all have better goalscoring resume than playmaking.

- I also really like my fourth line. Not much to say other than in my research, I never saw Burch playing games on the right side. He played late in his career as a left winger, but his legacy definitely lies as a centre, and I'm far more comfortable using him that way.

- It's funny Chuck Rayner is getting more praise than Dominik Hasek! With such an elite backup, I'm very comfortable letting Hasek sit the proper amount of games in the regular season, as he was not a workhorse like Brodeur for example

- Nothing to add.

- Nothing to add.

- When I don't get the chance to draft a high end #1 defenceman, I always try to have a strong top-4, which I believe I achieve. I ought to believe that the Vasko - Patrick pairing will be one of the best 2nd pairing in the draft. At first, the plan was to draft Lennart Svedberg with Vasko, but I was very fortunate to see Frank Patrick slide all the way down to the early 300's. With the biography Jarek had done, I thought he would go much higher. Oh well, lucky for me!

- I think Bubla is a very strong offensive #6 defenceman. Other than that, it's true it's unspectacular, which I actually quite like. If we don't hear much about them, it's that they are doing their job right!

- My PP is decent, but probably below average compare to the other 31 teams. I would venture to say that my PK is the best in the draft, but I'm pretty confident it's top-3.

- This is not a spectacular team on paper, but most team that drafts goaltenders with their first selection do not tend to be eye-catching, and if they do, it's mostly for the wrong reasons. It will be interesting to see where I will be ranked and which matchup I will draw. I believe in this team, and I think that even though I might not be eye catching like some other great teams, people will realize during the playoffs that it is a team with few holes backstopped by the greatest goaltender of All-Time. At least, I hope that this scenario will happen!

Thanks again for the review!

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03-22-2012, 08:01 PM
  #347
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post

*- Home
^ - Road

PP1: Olmstead - Malone - Fleury - Conacher - Housley
PP2: Bailey - Kennedy - Tocchet - Shore - Bondra
Note: Duchesne will see powerplay time when dressed.

PK1: Bailey - Kennedy - Shore - Horner
PK2: Fleury - Weiland - Conacher - McDonald
PK3: Bondra - Hunter - Shore - Prodger
Trucking through the division...

First Line

This line is easily the best defensively of any of your lines. All 3 guys are strong two-way players. I'm guessing this line is going to be playing against the other team's top line, which would probably limit what offensive capabilities it has. Speaking of offensive capabilities, I think you might have too much playmaking here, and not enough goalscoring. Bailey had one great goalscoring season, Kennedy was more of a passer, and Fleury was a decent, but not great goalscorer. I think it suffers a bit from a lack of shooters. They should be a menace on the forecheck with Kennedy and Fleury. Offensively, they are sub-par in terms of first lines, but far ahead defensively.

Second Line

Without looking, Joe Malone is very likely the best goal-scoring 2nd liner in the draft. He's easily your best offensive player. This line is built to get Malone the puck with Olmstead being the ultimate corner-man, and Boucher being a somewhat similar player. They will basically work the corners, get the puck to Malone, and then try to get rebounds. This line is well-built to utilize Malone's skills. Defensively, it could struggle though.

Third Line

This reads like a 3rd scoring line. Weiland is a two-way playmaker at center, Bondra a sniper, and Hadfield the puck-winner and policeman. They'll be decent in their own zone, and should be one of the better 3rd lines in terms of offense. I would be afraid to use them as a checking line though.

Fourth Line

Crash and bang is all I really need to say. You drafted Tocchet at 2nd line glue guy range, but he's here on your 4th line. He's an elite 4th liner, but he could be used in your top 6 instead of Boucher if you ask me. Boucher would be out of place on a 40 team ATD 2nd line, let alone a 32 team one. His "two 3rd place finishes in assists" were pre-consolidation, and look more like statistical smoke than anything. Tocchet wasn't a completely inept passer either. Tocchet is much grittier, and better offensively. I would definitely go with Olmstead-Malone-Tocchet on your 2nd line because it gives it more offensive talent, it would be absolute hell to play against as a defenseman, and I don't think you're losing anything in Boucher that Tocchet doesn't bring more of.

Forwards Overall

This is an oddly built group. The first line is easily the best defensively of any of the lines, and the 2nd line features your best offensive player. You have a 3rd scoring line, then an extreme crash and bang 4th line that will chip in points, but isn't that great defensively. If you plan on matching lines, you're going to have to use your first line as a checking line, which I don't really agree with.

First Pairing

Maybe the toughest, most physical top pairing in the draft. They will be truly terrifying to play against. Horner is a very good #3, with Hitchman being your #2. The physicality of this pairing is both a blessing and a curse. They'll be spending a hefty amount of time in the penalty box, which is not something ideal for your 1st pairing.

Second Pairing

I think you got very good value with Conacher as your #2. He's definitely above average. I'd personally rather have Housley on a bottom pairing playing sheltered minutes. He's about as bad defensively as you'll find in a top 4 in this draft. I also probably would have put a more defensive-minded player to play next to Housley, whose abilities are well documented. The sum of this pairing's talents is probably going to be better than its actual effectiveness.

Third Pairing

Dear god, Bucko McDonald must have been one of the fattest ****ss to ever have played in the NHL. His face annoys me. Whatever, he's a satisfactory bottom pairing defenseman. I always looked at Prodger as more of a forward because that's where I used him last year. Do you know when he actually played defense? I might switch Prodgers and Gusev.

Defense Overall

Because of the elite first pairing, this defense is going to be above average. I'm not as big of a fan of the 2nd and 3rd pairings though, I don't think the skillsets match on the 2nd pairing, and I'm not sure Prodgers played enough defense to warrant being a starter in the ATD.

Goaltending

Holmes is near the very bottom in terms of starters. Goaltending will be a weakness for you.

Coaching

Gorman is an average coach. Not much to say.

PP

The first unit looks good, but there's a dropoff to the 2nd unit, which I think is average at best.

PK

First unit looks very good, 2nd unit is average, and Bondra isn't really ideal on any PK unit, but it's not that big a deal because he's on the 3rd unit. Hunter killed penalties for the first 5 years of his career, and then basically never did it again on a consistent basis. A decent group of PK units overall.

Overall

This is a pretty good unit, but it has a few holes. Goaltending will be a weakness, and your 1st line is going to likely end up being your checking line, which I'm not really a fan of.

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03-23-2012, 04:36 AM
  #348
DoMakc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Forwards
1st Line: A high powered line offensively with lots of speed...These guys are definitely going to score. I don't think LaFleur and Yakushev are much defensively, but Ullman is enough to make them the line an even/not a liability.

2nd Line: The Schriner-Federko combo will generate some offense, and I think you got Federko at pretty good value. I think Jean Pronovost is a weak spot on this line and is likely over his head having to do most of the corner work/puck digging while also being the defensive conscience.

3rd/4th Lines: I'm doing these together because it seems that the line you have listed 4th will be getting more minutes than the one listed 3rd. That line of Miller-Otto-Hebenton is your checking line, and considering that neither of you first two lines are anything special defensively these guys will probably be getting some tough matchups. Otto is good here. I think Hebenton would be ok if he was the weakest link in this line, but he's not, Miller is, and IMO he should be a 4th liner or spare. These guys could be in real trouble when they have to go up against some of the better top lines. I think you should have drafted a top defensive LWer to play on that checking line instead of Gottselig. Instead he's basically getting 4th line duty on a third offensively oriented line with Hay and Kovalev, which is a bit of a waste of his talents IMO.


Defense
1st pairing: A strong 1st pairing that will be able to get the puck up to your very offensive forward lines. I like Clancy a lot, you scooped him a pick before I was going to take him. Kasatonov will provide some size and strength to make up for Clancy's smaller stature.

2nd pairing: Another strong pairing IMO. Patrick is an offensive guy that will also be able to get the puck up to your forwards and Schoenfeld is a defensive guy that will be able to cover for him and provide some size.

3rd pairing: I think you took Ozolinsh too early, but got good pretty good value on Bilyaletdinov, so it evens out. Another good combo of an offensive guy that will be able to move the puck matched with a defensive guy that will provide some physical play.


Goaltending
Gardiner is an average goalie in this...not much to say, he's solid, not a strength or weakness. I think Resch is a fine backup here.


Power Play
I think you have two good PP units. I'd consider moving Patrick up to the 1st unit and Ozolinsh back to the 2nd.


Penalty Kill
Overall I would say good not great. I would put Clancy on the 2nd unit instead of Patrick. I think he's better defensively and that will help with Patrick's minutes if you're going to move him to the 1st PP unit. Gottselig seems to be known as a good PKer. I think he should replace Hebenton on the 2nd unit. That will give Hebenton a little more rest which he'll probably need, and make that unit more of an offensive threat.


Coaching
Babcock is an average to slightly above average coach. I think he works with your type of team.


Leadership
Lester Patrick is a good captain. I think Clancy needs to be one of the A's...I seem to remember him having good leadership qualities (someone confirm this for me). Not sure who you should replace...I don't think Ullman or Federko are anything special. I'd probably keep Ullman.


Minutes
The ES minutes for the 3rd/4th lines look weird. Several guys on the same line have different minutes. When will these guys be playing with other players and who will those players be? In general, I think your checking line is going to have to play a lot more minutes than you have listed. On D, 23 minutes seems like too much for Patrick. You will probably have to play your 3rd pairing more.


Strengths
A lot of offensive firepower and good puck moving defensemen to get them the puck that are covered by defensive partners/


Weaknesses
A checking line that is probably not up to the big responsibilities it will likely have, and a lack of toughness up front.

Thanks for your review.

- Why is Pronovost over his head? It's not like he is expected to score 50 goals while digging the pucks and playing defence. This is his primary role on that line, and that's something he was good at. It's not like his offencive talents (or lack of them, which is not entirely true) don't allow him to do corner work and backcheck. It's like saying that Harry Watson can't play with Gretzky .

- Gottselig will get some Miller minutes that's why, the chart is a little bit weird. Miller is more of PK-specialist. Otto will play more minutes against bigger centres like Lemieux, esposito and his pal Messier.

- 23 Minutes is not that much for a defenceman, this season 23 minutes ATOI mean 45th place among defencemen. It's something Patrick can do. I don't why do you think Patrick was offence-only, he was fine defencively. Especially he is on the second PK-unit over Clancy, because this is where his size hurts Clancy most.

- Hebenton plays much less Es- munites than Gottselig, it's Gottselig who needs more rest not Hebenton.

- I don't see any problems with my checking line. Hebenton and Otto, especially with the amount of big centres in my division, are fine checking line players, Miller may be not optimal, but Gottselig will get some of his minutes. And i don't plan to play my checking line much because, when they are out there, the best offencive players are not on the ice. As for toughness, i think i answered this - nobody from my top 6 is soft, they all can take a hit. They aren't physically intimidating, but it's not like they need to, they are skilled enough to intimidate their opponents.

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03-23-2012, 07:25 AM
  #349
BraveCanadian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Line 1:
On the surface Brett Hull appears to be offense-only but while he'll be the puck winner on this line I think he'll play a responsible 2-way game especially with Joe Sakic and Johnny Bucyk as his linemates. This is a really decent 1st line.
One quibble with this: if we have to name a primary "puck winner" on the line.. that would be Bucyk who is one of the better guys on the boards ever.

Quote:
Line 3:

Jere Lehtinen is an elite defensive left winger but I think that's all he brings to the table... Lehtinen may get lost in the shuffle here but other than that it's a solid 3rd line.
Lehtinen actually has two important roles to fill on that line: 1) be the primary defensive conscience and 2) work the boards like nobodies business. He did the dirty work for his linemates his whole career and he will need to here as well.

As far as offense, a guy who scores 20+ 7 times, mostly during the dead puck era (and 30+ twice) while winning 3 Selke trophies isn't doing that bad in my books, and anything he does pot will be a bonus, really.

He does have a nice playmaker to get him some chances.

Quote:
Line 4:

John Madden is an elite checker, unsure on if he belongs in the ATD just yet but he's still a solid player nonetheless.
Why would you question Madden as a fourth line and PK ATD player? Just curious.. there are plenty of worse checkers being used in this and almost none of them have his speed.

Quote:
Goalies:

Grant Fuhr tends to be a bit over-rated in this. The guy was a solid goalie throughout his career but played on high-powered teams during his prime. Still a good goalie who should help your team.
It is always hard to separate the team and the goalie, but I think I provided plenty enough evidence in his bio about how he was regarded during that time. His record speaks for itself.

In any case, one of the main reasons I took him was his success at playing behind a free-wheeling team like I've made. His attitude suits the team and his clutch saves will win games for us.

Quote:
I like Chris Osgood and find him under-rated around here. Like Fuhr Osgood played for a lot of great teams during his career. Like Fuhr you can question how much of Osgood's success had to do with the team. It's a solid duo but I will say that Fuhr goes to early in this and Osgood goes to late.
I agree that Osgood is underrated.

Particularly post lockout after he re-jigged his entire game. His last two finals runs were very strong. If people haven't read about his dedication to rebuilding his entire game during the lockout -- they should. It speaks volumes about his dedication, competitiveness and humble attitude.

He needs to get more respect. His attitude suits our team too.

Quote:
While I am not in favour of assistant coaches in this I think that if you could pick any guy to be an assistant coach you should go with John Muckler.
I'm a big Muckler fan.. he did the heavy coaching lifting throughout the Oilers dynasty. Sather was the GM and big picture guy and Muckler was the details guy. They worked really well together.

I tried to create the same thing with Quinn here.

Quote:
No real comments about the power play, only to say that as great as Coffey was on the power play he shouldn't play on 2 pairings and will get tired in doing so. Also where's Gaborik here?
Coffey isn't penalty killing at all so with his endurance and skating ability I don't see a problem with him running the whole powerplay.

I was very careful when constructing my team to make sure that my players would be getting a very reasonable amount of icetime and therefore be able to go all out all the time.

Also keep in mind that Quinn distributes his ES icetime much more evenly in general by rolling his lines and keeping everyone fresh.

As for Gaborik: he actually isn't an outstanding powerplay goal scorer.. he is much more effective at even strength (probably because of the chances his speed creates on the rush vs. setup in the zone). He will get a decent amount of even strength icetime here because of how Quinn runs the bench and the depth I've given him.

Gaborik will fill in on the powerplay as need be though.

Thanks for the review.

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Old
03-23-2012, 07:43 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
As far as offense, a guy who scores 20+ 7 times, mostly during the dead puck era (and 30+ twice) while winning 3 Selke trophies isn't doing that bad in my books, and anything he does pot will be a bonus, really.
Yeah, I wouldn't call Lehtinen a zero offensively on an ATD third line. His scoring is probably average to above-average for an ATD third liner (not exactly sure what the average is, as third lines vary in style and composition so much). He's not a pure checker. Very similar offensive production to that of a guy like Mike Ramsay, but more tilted towards goalscoring. Lehtinen was a great skater, and used his speed well in the counterattack. He didn't have great, soft hands, but he created enough odd-man rushes that he got his share of goals.

I think Lehtinen and Ramsay are roughly equals, and that you got Lehtinen at a nice value considering where the other elite ATD 3rd line wingers (like Ramsay and Provost) seem to go these days. Ramsay has the advantage of being an über-PKer, but Lehtinen's multi-position eligibility is extremely useful. I could even see an ATD team built around the idea of swapping Lehtinen between the two wings to shadow based on matchups, but that would be tricky to execute, and involve other interchangeable wingers on the 3rd and 4th lines.

At any rate, Jere is definitely a decent offensive threat on an ATD third line.

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