What do you want, mark? I call it like I see it, as always. I've said on many occasions you're ready to cuddle up in front of a warm fire with me when I agree with you, then I'm the most arrogant person in the world when I don't. Someone else called you on it too, this time.
Seventies, please. There is a huge clandestine society of GM's who secretly hate your guts via PM.
As promised, a day or two late. I hope I did the correct team this time
First Line: A very interesting forward group starting off with a very good defensive 1st line that although they will score they are fairly below average from an offensive point of view. It looks as though they will be used as your shut down line, they aren't the largest line but they will provide some counter offense against defensively weak first lines.
2nd line: A completely different story. To me this is the best offensive 2nd line in the league. Obviously the centrepiece is Malone who is an elite 2nd liner. Olmstead is an elite 2nd line winger who will be great in the corners getting the puck out to Malone. Boucher is fairly weak, I wish you would have drafted a more defensive minded RW which would make this line elite overall but still he provides some toughness and goal scoring. Overall elite offensively slightly below average defensively, but still one of my favourite second lines with Olmstead - Malone.
3rd line: An interesting mix, but I like the balance you have here. Weiland will be the defensive presence, Bondra the offensive presence and Hadfield the physical presence. I would be nervous with Bondra out against scoring lines, What are your thoughts on swapping Boucher and Bondra? I think Bondra - Malone would be scary good offensively. I know they are both shooters but they will get lots of chances with Olmstead winning and feeding them pucks.
4th line: A great bang and crash line. Tocchet is an elite 4th liner and could also be swapped with Boucher if you were looking to mix things up. I like the toughness this line brings, it's not hard to see your motive for this line.
1st defensive pairing: An excellent top shut down pairing that will be absolute hell for opposing top lines to play against. This pairing will be great paired with the Kennedy line in shutting down top lines.
2nd pairing: Overall as much as im not the biggest fan of Housley playing against ATD top lines, you have a great 2nd line dman in Conacher next to him. I'm not sure if Conacher is the best partner for Housley as he is offensive minded as well.
Overall this is a very interesting team that I would not want to face in the playoffs. One of the best 2nd lines and shutdown pairings in the league you will be a very tough match up. It seems as though this team hasn't been talked about much, but I will look for them to make some noise in the playoffs, Well Done.
Was Red Horner really a "shut down" guy? He's a tough one for me to get a read on
Not that I've read.
Both Horner and Shore would ideally need a steady partner. Defense was definately the weakest part of Shore's game, and it looks like Horner wasn't very good in that aspect either.
Was Red Horner really a "shut down" guy? He's a tough one for me to get a read on
By shut down, I mean very tough (when paired with Shore) to score against. It may not be a standard shut down pairing but I think that defensive pairing will be extremely hard to score against. They are both tough as nails and Shore will control the puck a lot. They also have the ability to overpower forwards infront of the net or in the corners.
By shut down, I mean very tough (when paired with Shore) to score against. It may not be a standard shut down pairing but I think that defensive pairing will be extremely hard to score against. They are both tough as nails and Shore will control the puck a lot. They also have the ability to overpower forwards infront of the net or in the corners.
I'm sure they will beat people up, but I don't see how they will be excetionally tough to score against. They might scare off some of the softer lines, but their weak positional play means they will get exposed at times.
OFFENSIVE HERO LINE
Denneny - Oates - Hextall Sr.
Boyle - Kelly
( Nighbor , Balderis )
DEFENSIVE HERO LINE
Ramsay - Nighbor - Provost
Howell - Kelly
Forwards- I love the combination of Nighbor's brilliant playmaking and defensive skills paired with Denneny, one of the all-time great goal-scorers. Balderis will definately fit in well on this line as I see him using his blazing speed and puckhandling skills to convert on many scoring oppurtunities. I must say that Nighbor has definately risen on my all-time ranking. He's gotta be around 25-30 when looking at everything he brings to a team. The second line is not as balanced I think but Oates was certaintly a brilliant passer/playmaker and Hextall was a great goal-scorer and all-around player. I'm not as big on Elias as most people but he'll bring some stability to that line and should be ok. I like the 3rd line at least from a defensive perspective. We all know Ramsay and Provost were two of the best defensive forwards of all-time and I think Goyette is close to hall of fame level. But this line is going to have troubles scoring goals but like I said great defensively and probably one of the best shut-down lines in ATD 2012. The Fourth line is good too with lecavalier who's all-time value will go up in time and Marleau who playoffs aside has been a very consistent player in his career. holmstrom is more of a PP specialist but his net-crashing skill should mesh well with Lecavalier's playmaking and Marleau's speed. Overall I like the mix of forwards on this team and certaintly has to be one of the best defensively sound forward groups in the draft. However there's not many big guns on this team and Nighbor/Denneny/Kelly from the defensive side are going to have to carry the majority of the offensive load.
Defense- I like how you drafted kelly in the first round then loaded up on forwards with like your next 6-7 picks. I'm really big on Red Kelly, I think he was one of the greatest defensemen of all-time and arguably a top 3 when just looking at offensive defensemen. He brings speed, playmaking, solid defensive play, and enough offensive skills that he could play spot in as a forward from time to time. I like having Kelly paired with the defensive Harry Howell. This is a great combo and Howell will certaintly be ok staying back and letting Red Kelly create most of the offense. After seventies recent defensemen project I view Boyle and beck in a different light and should be an ok 2nd pairing but nothing spectactular. I'm not a fan of Stackhouse and Macoun. Macoun certaintly ws durable and had a decent career but should be one of the weaker 3rd pairings in this. Overall your defense ia pretty good especially your first pairing which could be the best part of your team.
Goaltending- I think Harry Lumley is very underrated and is definately a top 30 goalie. I like Lumley better than Cheevers and Barrasso who were selected fairly close in the draft. I think you gotta steal there where you picked Lumley. However I dont really care for Andy Moog as I always thought he was kinda overrrated.
Spares- Next year I doubt Jason Spezza will be a spare, he's another one with Lecavalier who's All-time draft stock will rise over time. He can certaintly fill anywhere from the 2nd line to the fourth and also some PP time. Dupont will bring some added toughness and size. If you feel like your getting banged around you could always insert the Moose into the lineup. Conroy was a good consistent player and has some good passing and face-off skills
Special Teams- Should be a good power play with a littlebit of everything you'll need. Your PK should be among the Drafts bests with Provost, Ramsay, and Nighbor all being considered some of the greatest defensive forwards of all-time. Also having Howell, one of the best defensive defensemen will help also.
Coaching- I really like Pat Burns, he should be a good coach for this group. A smart hockey man who will have fun tinkering with this teams. There's a lot of versatility on this team from top to bottom.
Overall- This team seems very well balanced. Every line can score as well as defend and your 3rd line could be one of the best shut-down lines in the draft and I think Nighbor and Denneny could be an awesome duo. Overall I think this team could end up being a contender for the title. Very good job of putting this team together.
I still have trouble viewing Howell as a defensive defenseman when he spent the first half of his career putting up good point totals and getting very little Norris consideration. More of a two-way guy IMO.
I still have trouble viewing Howell as a defensive defenseman when he spent the first half of his career putting up good point totals and getting very little Norris consideration. More of a two-way guy IMO.
He did spend the first half of his career putting good point totals? He didn't break 20 points until his 1962 even though his career started in the 1953 season.
I still have trouble viewing Howell as a defensive defenseman when he spent the first half of his career putting up good point totals and getting very little Norris consideration. More of a two-way guy IMO.
Part of that might be that Rangers fans hated his guts for playing a boring style of hockey.
I can't believe that 3 of the 5 best defensive forwards of all-time are on one team.
They aren't.
In no order - Bob Gainey, Frank Nighbor, Bobby Clark, and Guy Carboneau are the four best defensive forwards ever in my mind. They are all on different teams.
I don't see what makes Ramsay or Provost any better defensively than (in no order) Jack Walker, Pit Lepine, Bob Pulford, Henri Richard, Dave Keon, Sergei Fedorov, or Jere Lehtinen. Just to throw out names.
IMO, the gap between Ramsay and Ed Westfall or Don Marcotte isn't by much.
In no order - Bob Gainey, Frank Nighbor, Bobby Clark, and Guy Carboneau are the four best defensive forwards ever in my mind. They are all on different teams.
I don't see what makes Ramsay or Provost any better defensively than (in no order) Jack Walker, Pit Lepine, Bob Pulford, Henri Richard, Dave Keon, Sergei Fedorov, or Jere Lehtinen. Just to throw out names.
IMO, the gap between Ramsay and Ed Westfall or Don Marcotte isn't by much.
100% agreed, Nighbor is definitely as elite as you'll get defensively. But Ramsay and Provost are huge reaches for top-five defensive players of all time.
I think Ramsay's selke record , considering the overall competition and taking out TDMM's 4 top defensive players , is superior than both Lehtinen and Fedorov.
Unless I'm mistaken , if you take out Gainey this is Ramsay's selke record: 1,1,1,1,2,2,5
Of course this is not all there is to it but we could make each year of each player looking at their competition even after taking out Gainey , Clarke and Carbonneau.(No Nighbor in selke records as you all know) I can probably present it later tonight if you're interested.
I think you have t otake out Carbonneau on some Fedorov's record which gives him another selke (not sure) , but I don't think Carbonneau was ever higher than Lehtinen on any relevant selke year for him.Again , this is just memory based , I'm going to the restaurent and I'll check it out when I come back.
Either way , all 3 of the players that are concerned on my team are definitely top 3 defensively at their natural position , aren't they?
He did spend the first half of his career putting good point totals? He didn't break 20 points until his 1962 even though his career started in the 1953 season.
Yeah, I have no idea what Devil is talking about here. Harry Howell was only top-10 in defensemen scoring once in the 50's, when he placed 10th. He started to become more of a two-way guy as he peaked (which is a common thread among many defensemen), but he was always a defensive guy first and foremost. The story of the defensive defenseman who develops more offense and rises in the voting is nothing new.
I honestly wonder if Devil didn't mix Howell's name up with somebody else's in a spreadsheet, or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor
100% agreed, Nighbor is definitely as elite as you'll get defensively. But Ramsay and Provost are huge reaches for top-five defensive players of all time.
They're both in the conversation, so I don't see how they're huge reaches. I think Devil's top-4 is probably correct, so it's hard to say for sure exactly who should round out the top-5, but Ramsay and Provost both have a good case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
IMO, the gap between Ramsay and Ed Westfall or Don Marcotte isn't by much.
Even if you think they're close defensively (and there's a reasonable argument for that), Ramsay wins easily in scoring over both of them, and in longevity over Marcotte, if we're talking about all-around play.
Even if you think they're close defensively (and there's a reasonable argument for that), Ramsay wins easily in scoring over both of them, and in longevity over Marcotte, if we're talking about all-around play.
I am big time sold on Westfall. I wouldn't hesitate to put him in my top-10. Marcotte is great too, but I don't see him, Lepine or Fedorov with the rest of those names. I mean, with the focus on "star forwards who backcheck", if Fedorov was as good defensively as Ramsay or Provost, surely he'd be a Selke finalist every single season, no?
Quote:
Unless I'm mistaken , if you take out Gainey this is Ramsay's selke record: 1,1,1,1,2,2,5
He was also superb before the award was introduced. He was top-5 in voting in 7 of the 8 years that the award coincided with his career and had 614 voting points (77/year). Gainey was top-5 in just 6 of 12 years and had 879 voting points (73/year).
Even if you think they're close defensively (and there's a reasonable argument for that), Ramsay wins easily in scoring over both of them, and in longevity over Marcotte, if we're talking about all-around play.
Definitely. IMO, Ramsay's even strength defensive play is kind of overrated at the ATD level - supposedly he wasn't physically strong enough to hang with larger forwards in the playoffs.
But offensively, he's better than most "traditional third line checkers." edit: and he has a case for best PKing forward of all time
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
Pit Lepine???
Was he not considered the best hook checker in hockey after Nighbor declined?
