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ATD 2012 Line-up Assassination Thread

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Old
03-19-2012, 08:53 PM
  #101
TheDevilMadeMe
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Considering the number of bad team scorers on terrible expansion teams in the 70s, it seems pretty ridiculous that UH would have called MacLeisch the worst defensive forward of the decade.

I mean, it's not like anything but UH says he was even bad, right?


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-19-2012 at 09:00 PM.
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Old
03-19-2012, 08:59 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Modo View Post
If that's the case, are spares EVER used?

Or does 25 rounds just look prettier than 21?
Injuries mostly, which we can assume happen from time to time. If a team has awful spares, I'll take notice. Also, some teams might move players around in the lineup based on playoff matchups.

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Old
03-19-2012, 09:14 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
He was so big that he probably looked slow out there, but anything I've seen talking about his skating says he was quite good at it.










All harvested from seventieslord's bio. But given that he was such a big player and primarily a goalscorer, I can definitely see how you might assume he was a plodding winger who just crashed the net for goals. I probably would have too if I hadn't researched the guy.
Alright, you've succeeded in altering my opinion

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Old
03-19-2012, 09:14 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Pittsburgh Keystones

Head Coach: Hap Day
Assistant Coach: Billy Reay

Gary Roberts - Henri Richard (C) - Boom Boom Geoffrion
John LeClair - Eric Lindros - Anders Hedberg
Gilles Tremblay - Blair Russell - Bob Nevin (A)
Dave Trottier - Ken Linseman - Jim Pappin


Lionel Hitchman
- Bobby Orr
Gus Mortson - Rob Blake (A)
Allan "Eagle Eye" Cameron - Jerry Korab

Gump Worsley

Dave Kerr

Spares: D/RW Ken Randall, C Dennis Maruk, D Dave Langevin

PP1: LeClair-Richard-Lindros-Geoffrion-Orr
PP2: Roberts-Linseman-Hedberg-Korab-Blake

PK1: Russell-Nevin-Hitchman-Orr
PK2: Richard-Tremblay-Mortson-Blake
A contender for top team in our division.

Day-Reay is a fantastic coaching combo. Pay attention jkrx because this is how you create a well coached team.

Line 1: Nothing freightening. Henri is more suited as a kick-ass 2nd line C IMO, but he is passable on the top unit with the big guy ready to hop over the boards behind him. Geoffrion obviously is a top sniper and Roberts brings a little toughness and board work to this line.

Line 2: Leclair-Lindros won't be as scary in a 32 team league, but a great second line none the less. Chemistry is proven, and Hedberg is crafty enough to sneak in behind the big boys and bang in some rebound goals.

Line 3: A generic 3rd line. Nothing stands out, no glaring holes. Not sure about Blair Russell, guys who played their primes before 1910 I don't like taking chances on.

Line 4: Linsman is a pain in the ass, Trottier and Pappin should make the most of their 5 or 6 minutes a game. Solid 4th wave.

Defence: You've got arguably the best two-way hockey player ever as the anchor and, IMO, a top 5 second pair with Mortson-Blake. This is a big, talented, mobile, pretty damn scary good defence.

Goaltending: I'm not a big fan of Worsely. He's average to below average, but with the skaters in front it shouldn't matter. If he were ever to go down, though, your in trouble with Kerr in net.

1st unit powerplay is awesome, but there is a maaaaaasssive drop off in talent to the 2nd unit. Maybe penalty killing and depth at forward is a problem, but I see a strong team thats a contender in this league.

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03-19-2012, 09:15 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
West Island Lions



GM: Dwight
Coach: Joel Quenneville
Captain: Toe Blake
Alternate Captains: Ed Westfall, Doug Wilson

Brian Propp - Elmer Lach - Vaclav Nedomansky
Toe Blake - Phil Watson - Dave Taylor
J.P. Parise - Bob Bourne - Ed Westfall
Ab McDonald - Steven Stamkos - Bobby Schmautz
Glen Skov - Mickey Redmond

Doug Wilson - Tim Horton
Jean-Guy Talbot - Dave Burrows
Duncan Keith - Phil Russell
Andrei Markov - Roman Hamrlik

Jacques Plante
Olaf Kolzig

PP1: Toe Blake - Elmer Lach - Vaclav Nedomansky - Jean-Guy Talbot - Doug Wilson
PP2: Brian Propp - Steven Stamkos - Phil Watson - Duncan Keith - Tim Horton

PK1: Phil Watson - Ed Westfall - Tim Horton - Dave Burrows
PK2: Bob Bourne - Brian Propp - Duncan Keith - Phil Russell
If I were you I'd switch Keith and Talbot on the PP and I'd replace Keith with Talbot on the second PK unit.

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03-19-2012, 09:22 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Vecens, only 11 forwards in the NHL this season are over 21 min per game and only 2 (Kovalchuk and St Louis) are at more than 22. I just can't see Rick Middleton as a 21.5 minute man at this level.
Allll right looks like he's getting minutes reduced.

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03-19-2012, 09:30 PM
  #107
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
1st unit powerplay is awesome, but there is a maaaaaasssive drop off in talent to the 2nd unit. Maybe penalty killing and depth at forward is a problem, but I see a strong team thats a contender in this league.
Appreciate the lengthy review

I don't think you could put enough a's in massive there though. It's really ugly when I'm deciding between Linseman and Russell for that 2nd C spot

I sorta screwed myself not planning around Geoffrion's abilities on the point and I just don't think he'd be as effective up front. I get stuck because then that leaves me with Blake slumming it up on a 2nd PP unit or moving Boom Boom to a less effective spot, or even worse down a unit.

I see your point too about my forwards though. The third line is decent on the wings but Russell could have been replaced by a stronger defensive player to make it stand out as more than average or passable. My offensive will really sputter too if my second line can't help contribute. Having Orr obviously helps, but he sort of has to make up for Roberts being a bit over his head on a top line.

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03-19-2012, 09:34 PM
  #108
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New evened out minutes chart:

NameESPPSHTotal
Gilmour143.52.520
Middleton143.52.520
Krutov143.5017.5
Walker1303.516.5
Keon141318
Doan130215
Tkachuk123.5015.5
Roenick122.5015.5
Amonte1201.513.5
Irvin7008
Patrick83.5011.5
Perry8008

I moved Gilmour up a minute to get him some more PK time with being on the second unit (also takes face offs here too), and moved the entire first line's ES mins down one. Middleton loses a minute and a half there and from the PP.

Keon also receives a boost in mins by picking a couple extra shifts throughout the game on fourth lines because as Hawkey Town says and I totally agree with this, Keon can handle the extra time.

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Old
03-20-2012, 03:10 AM
  #109
DoMakc
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post


link? what did he say?

i only remember him contradicting ultimate hockey's pick of macleish as worst defensive F of the '70s.
i think it was during ATD 11. GBC picked MacLeish to be the centre of his two way line, and JFF said something like MacLeish was a fine offencive player, but Out of place on the two way line. I guess he wasn't the worst defencive forward, but can't be relied upon in his own zone

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Old
03-20-2012, 03:18 AM
  #110
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A couple of things:

- Middleton is a big special teams player, so he is inevitably going to end up playing a lot of minutes in the ATD. It's just sort of who he is as a player. He was a horse in real life, so I don't think it's a problem. Maybe 22 minutes is too much, but 20 minutes should be just fine.

- I think Barber/Lonsberry switched lines quite a bit in Philly. My clearest memory of MacLeish was with Barber on his wing, but I'm sure he played with Lonsberry, as well. Those Flyers teams were set up in an interesting way, with the Clarke line drawing heavy checking duties against opposing top lines in the POs (somewhat less so in the regular season), and the team depending on the MacLeish line to be its #1 offensive unit - which worked out pretty well.

Bathgate was big and strong, but my understanding of his physicality was that he mostly used his body to protect the puck, and did not initiate a lot of contact. The general point I was trying to make is that you can expect at best neutral checking out of MacLeish/Bathgate, and really Prentice saves the line from being a poor defensive unit, rather than making it a good one.

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Old
03-20-2012, 03:41 AM
  #111
MadArcand
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Inglewood Jacks

(colour-coded for your viewing pleasure)



Cecil Hart

Harry Watson - Wayne Gretzky (C) - Jari Kurri
Baldy Northcott - Pat Lafontaine - Alexander Mogilny
Ross Lonsberry - Rod Brind'Amour (A) - Ron Ellis
Murray Murdoch - Bernie Nicholls - Bill Ezinicki

Brian Leetch - Moose Johnson (A)
George Boucher (A) - Jimmy Watson
Lloyd Cook - Kimmo Timonen

Tiny Thompson
Rogie Vachon


Spare: Pavol Demitra (LW/RW/C), Mike Richards (C), Robyn Regehr (D), Pavel Kubina (D)


Special Teams:

PP1: Leetch - Nicholls - Gretzky - Kurri - Watson
PP2: Boucher - Timonen - Lafontaine - Mogilny - Northcott

PK1: Johnson - Watson - Brind'Amour - Northcott
PK2: Leetch - Cook - Gretzky - Kurri

(these can be seen as 1A and 1B, depending on the game situation. One unit is obviously more offensively inclined than the other).



Thanks in advance. I'm open to any and all suggestions (special teams, captains, roster shuffling, etc), so have at!
- strong re-uniting theme on the top-6
- Gretzky & Kurri is an insane duo, but Watson has to be one of the weakest 1st liners in the whole draft. He doesn't bring anything the other two would need, and seems overall just unfit for 1st line duty.
- Lafontaine & Mogilny were a dynamic duo together, too bad it didn't last longer. Both have their issues, but are good 2nd liners. Northcott complements them well, being able to keep up and adding much needed grit.
- very good two-way checking line. Brindy as 3rd line center is a luxury.
- a hodgepodge of a 4th line, with two energy guys flanking a scoring center. Kind of kills Bernie's offensive potential at ES, but he's here mostly for his PP role anyway.

I'd like the top 6 a ton if it weren't for Watson. It's still pretty good, but it'd just be so much better with a more competent/fitting LW on the 1st line. Good 3rd line, kinda bleh 4th line.


- the top pairing reminds me of mine, with low-end #1 and high-end #2
- Boucher is super-elite in #3 role, being a #2 in vacuum. Watson is a good #4, making this a great 2nd pairing.
- fairly average 3rd pairing

Easily above-average defense in general. Reminds me of mine, with even stronger #3 but clearly weaker bottom pairing. Good spread of roles.

- Average goaltending and coaching.

- Good spares, maybe excluding the whiner Kubina (personal grudge, but I greatly disliked the whiny, defeatist attitude that he showed before the 2002 Olympics - 'waaah, the refs will be against us, waaah, it'll be all fixed, waaah, we have no chance'. FFS.). But it's not like 8th D-man should matter.

- Good PP, sans Watson (urghble). Good PK.

A good and well-built team overall, aside from the glaring hole called Watson and maybe the fairly bleh 4th line.

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Old
03-20-2012, 05:21 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
- strong re-uniting theme on the top-6
- Gretzky & Kurri is an insane duo, but Watson has to be one of the weakest 1st liners in the whole draft. He doesn't bring anything the other two would need, and seems overall just unfit for 1st line duty.
I've gotta say, I'm a little surprised at the Watson hate. I think he brings, literally, everything the other two could use to be a successful line. I'm not sure you're completely familiar with his skillset (I admit, I wasn't either until I started researching him this year)


Harry Watson's credentials:

-He was a very consistent, if usually unspectacular offensive player. And by that, I don't mean he was just some passable second-liner. His stats probably look like a perennial 25-35 goal guy with a 50 goal season in a modern context. There was a 10-year span where only Richard, Howe, and Lindsay had more goals. What he doesn't bring is much playmaking...but I don't think that's a huge issue given his linemates.

-He was excellent defensively, usually doing the heavy lifting defensively on his line (included quite a bit of documented success one-on-one against Gordie Howe).

- He was fast, massive, and worked the corners well

- When provoked, he was a terrifying fighter, to the point where players just wouldn't challenge him. Opinions vary on Gretzky's need for a bodyguard, but if he does need one, Watson has it covered.

- He was a money player in the playoffs, with sources quoting his great work at both ends of the ice on 5 Championship teams

- He isn't a career 3rd liner who was along for the ride. Watson was a first-line LW for the majority of his career, with plenty of experience playing beside elite centres (Apps, Bentley/Kennedy, etc)

- I think his massive size and strong finishing ability make him a nice fit on the first PP unit.

I don't think any of these statements are a stretch, they can all be easily backed up (just ask).


It would be great if he was an offensive superstar too, but I think he's certainly good enough offensively for his role given his linemates (and the fact that he was very successful in that same role with much lesser linemates in real life).


Last edited by arrbez: 03-20-2012 at 05:37 AM.
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Old
03-20-2012, 06:26 AM
  #113
MadArcand
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Selling a guy who averaged 10 PIM per season, had 0 PIM in his best season and was known for his 'quiet, even temperament on the ice' as bodyguard seems like a tall order.

I obviously didn't research him, but without a bio link I read up on him on LOH and there's no word or even a hint of any defensive ability whatsoever. Not that the line is in particularly dire need of it with Kurri around.

His offense is also sub-par for 1st liner.

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Old
03-20-2012, 06:28 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
- He isn't a career 3rd liner who was along for the ride. Watson was a first-line LW for the majority of his career, with plenty of experience playing beside elite centres (Apps, Bentley/Kennedy, etc).
Watson is pretty much exactly like the LWs on the Gretzky - Kurri line in real life: lots of intangibles, but more or less just a warm body offensively. Whether that is good or bad depends on your point of view. I think he was the right pick where you took him, but as it is with most things in life, you get what you pay for.

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Old
03-20-2012, 07:13 AM
  #115
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Guelph Platers
1986 Memorial Cup Champions

Home Rink: Guelph Memorial Gardens (1948)
GM: BraveCanadian

Coaches: Pat Quinn, John Muckler
Captain: Joe Sakic
Alternates: Art Coulter, Si Griffis

Johnny Bucyk - Joe Sakic -Brett Hull
Jack Adams - Marty Barry - Bill Mosienko
Jere Lehtinen - Brad Richards - Marian Gaborik
John Madden - Mel Bridgman - Bobby Gould

Paul Coffey - Art Coulter
Gennady Tsygankov - Si Griffis
Bill Hajt - Hobey Baker

Grant Fuhr
Chris Osgood

Reserves
Adrian Aucoin - Bob Probert - Michal Handzus

Powerplay:
PP1: Johnny Bucyk - Joe Sakic - Brett Hull - Paul Coffey - Si Griffis
PP2: Jack Adams - Marty Barry - Bill Mosienko - Paul Coffey - Brad Richards

Penalty Kill:
PK1: Jere Lehtinen- John Madden - Bill Hajt - Art Coulter
PK2: Bobby Gould - Mel Bridgman - Gennady Tsygankov - Si Griffis


The game plan for my team this year:

I built this team attempting to suit and take advantage of Paul Coffey to a large degree. He is not going to be hidden on this team, we are going to try to force our opponents to hide from him.

To do so I've drafted a coach that didn't buy into the trap during the dead puck era and who liked to roll lines for the most part and occasionally match against an important opponent player or line. (Pat Quinn). I feel we have given him the horses to do this with three defensively responsible scoring lines that will be able to take advantage of Coffey and support our own zone, and one gritty more defensively oriented line that can be used to somewhat blunt an opponents best attackers when need be.

I feel Quinn is a little bit light in the X's and O's game so I have given him a master strategist in John Muckler. Muckler was the game planner who got the most out of Coffey in Edmonton.

We will be an attacking team, high speed, up tempo, all out, all the time.

To be successful with this strategy I did a couple of things very carefully:

1) We won't be in the box often. We have several Lady Byng winners on our team, including one of our biggest physical presences in Johnny Bucyk. We want to minimize the time we're in the box. That having been said, to make sure we don't get run out of the rink we do have Bucyk, Adams, Bridgman, Coulter etc. to keep the peace. I also drafted Probert so that he can be inserted into the lineup if a team is getting out of hand in the playoffs and he and Bridgman can introduce the other team to the virtues of a clean game.

2) We are specialized so that all our best offensive players will play only PP and ES and our best defensive-focused players will play only ES and PK. This will keep the minutes down on our big guns and let us maintain our tempo. Only Si Griffis is playing both special teams and he is a second pairing at ES and second team PK.

3) Speed. With players like Sakic, Barry, Mosienko, Richards, Gaborik, Coffey, Griffis, Baker and on and on.. I tried to pick speed whenever it was feasible to take full advantage of being able to streak from transition with Coffey's long passes.. or just keep up with him on the rush.

4) I tried to make sure we had a rushing speedy defenseman on each pairing. Coffey is paired with an anchor in Coulter. Baker is paired with a defensive anchor in Hajt. Our second pairing features two two-way defenseman so they will take turns. The point being that our team has the capability of playing the same all the time.

5) We have goaltenders who were known for having a good attitude and shrugging off their personal numbers for team success. Which will be important when we're trading chances a lot of the time.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 03-20-2012 at 07:58 AM.
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Old
03-20-2012, 07:26 AM
  #116
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Pittsburgh Keystones

Head Coach: Hap Day
Assistant Coach: Billy Reay

Gary Roberts - Henri Richard (C) - Boom Boom Geoffrion
John LeClair - Eric Lindros - Anders Hedberg
Gilles Tremblay - Blair Russell - Bob Nevin (A)
Dave Trottier - Ken Linseman - Jim Pappin


Lionel Hitchman
- Bobby Orr
Gus Mortson - Rob Blake (A)
Allan "Eagle Eye" Cameron - Jerry Korab

Gump Worsley

Dave Kerr

Spares: D/RW Ken Randall, C Dennis Maruk, D Dave Langevin

PP1: LeClair-Richard-Lindros-Geoffrion-Orr
PP2: Roberts-Linseman-Hedberg-Korab-Blake

PK1: Russell-Nevin-Hitchman-Orr
PK2: Richard-Tremblay-Mortson-Blake
Another one of the teams in this draft that I like a lot.

Overall: A team with notable strengths and notable weaknesses. At times, it will be spectacular with Bobby Orr pushing the attack, and at times, the lack of line depth (that is: every line 2/3rds good and 1/3 pretty bad) will hurt you.

Goaltending: Worsley is a fine lower-end goalie. I don't think you got great value in him considering where the later-drafted goalies went, but he's solid and will not lose a you a series.

Defense: Not much to say about Bobby Orr, other than that he is spectacular. You went cheap on a #2 defenseman which is never something I recommend considering how much ES icetime the pairing should pull, but I think you did ok with Hitchman. It is hard to get a good read on him as a player because of a lack of quantifiable data from his era, but the descriptions of Hitchman from his career indicate that he was very solid defensively. Nevertheless, he is one of the weakest #2s in the draft, and teams that can mount a quick counterattack when Orr gets caught out of position will hurt you.

Rob Blake is an excellent #3 defenseman. I think he's a known commodity here. Mortson is a player whose ATD status troubles me. Much as it has been over the past two years with modern forwards, I think we are in for a big revaluation of modern defensemen in the ATD, and I think Mortson is one of the old timers (along with guys like Wentworth, Heller, etc.) whose status will suffer relative to the modern guys. Using two 3rd place votes (during the 1-2-3 voting era) or 5 votes overall (during the 1st half/2nd half era) as a cutoff criteria, here is Mortson's AST voting record:

Quote:
1st
7th
9th
9th
In modern terms, that's probably something like 2nd, 10th, 13th, 14th. Now, there are a few seasons during Mortson's prime for which we don't have AST voting beyond 5th place, so we have to give him a small benefit of the doubt, but basically he was a fringe top-10ish defenseman with one great season. I don't think he probably belongs in the top-250 players of all-time. That being said, he is still a good#4, and a nice complement to Blake. Overall, it is a very good 2nd pairing even if the #4 is somewhat overrated.

Forwards: You have build three lines each of which has one noticeably weak part. On the first line, it is Roberts, on the second line Hedberg and on the third line Russell. Your duos (Richard - Geoffrion / Lindros - Leclair / Tremblay - Nevin) are all strong, but all of your top lines are weighed down by the ballast of their third member. You generally drafted quite well, but Gary Roberts at #257 stands out as a blunder. He's basically a poor man's Clark Gillies. Roberts was good at going to the net and cleaning up junk, and I wouldn't want him to punch me in the face, but other than that, he brings very little to an ATD 1st line, which is a shame because Richard - Geoffrion with a strong LW could be an excellent first unit.

Ditto Hedberg, who is one of the weaker second liners in the draft. The core of Lindros - Leclair make this a solid second line, anyway, but Hedberg doesn't bring enough of anything (offense or intangibles) to justify his role here. I think you should move Pappin back up to the line and make it a true LOD redux. The problem with Hedberg in there is that the original LOD were great at cycling the puck, but Hedberg is going to get knocked off the puck in quick order when he tries to get down on the cycle.

Gilles Tremblay was a very good value pick where you got him, and Nevin is a strong 3rd line winger, but Blair Russell doesn't thrill me in his role here. I think he was probably good defensively, but I remain unconvinced by his playmaking, and his wingers need a playmaker to make the most of their offensive value. I think Russell turns what could have been a very strong two-way line into only a decent one. Your forwards overall have strong high-end talent on all of the top three units, but none of them stands out as particularly good because of the weakness of the finishing pieces.

But, of course, having Bobby Orr pushing the puck (and Blake on the second pairing) gives you a serious boost to your offensive production irrespective of the forwards. I'd have liked to see more defensive-minded forwards in place of Roberts and Hedberg to give the team more of a safety valve when Orr or Blake is pushing the puck, but it didn't work out that way, and teams that are good at creating turnovers and counterattacking may get the better of you. Nevertheless, there is a lot to like here and this is a team that could go deep into the playoffs.

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Old
03-20-2012, 08:07 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
I'm going to begin by doing my entire divison.

I'll start with mark's team.


Very well done Raptor! I appreciate the review



Quote:
First Line: You've got a two complete players in Mikita and McDonald. I like Howe more in the middle as it was his primary position, but he's not entirely out of place on the wing. I think the line is capable of playing 200-foot hockey and being a serious offensive threat.
My only real comment here is regarding Syd Howe. I hope he doesn't get too underrated here. He is a special player because he received numerous AS votes on both left wing and Centre. He was known as one of the most versatile players of his generation playing every position but goal. He was primarily a left wing and Centre:

Quote:
GHL:

Former Wings owner credited Syd with creating interest in hockey in Detroit, years before it became known as "Hockeytown." Howe was also a major part of the 1936, 1937 and 1943 Stanley Cup championships. A versatile player who played in all positions except goal, Syd was used primarily at center and on left wing by the Wings. A remarkably consistent player
Quote:
Howe worked as a machinist at Ford by day. He played center and left wing by night.

In 1945 he became the greatest scorer of all time in the NHL with 558 points (232 goals, 282 assists). Never flashy, just doggedly durable, Howe one of the cleverest players ever to put on skates
http://apps.detnews.com/apps/history/index.php?id=169


Howe to me was the perfect fit alongside Mikita. They are both all around offensive players and they can be used against scoring lines as well.

Howe was top 5 Hart voting 3 times!

His offensive consistency was very underrated:

HHOF member
Stanley Cup Champion 3 times (1935-36, 1936-37, 1942-43)
2nd team NHL all star in 1944-45
Top 16 in goals 9 times [6 top 10]: 3,5,6,8,9,10,12,15,16
Top 20 in assists 8 times [5 top 10]: 4,5,6,7,9,14,15,19



Quote:
Second Line: Similar premise on the second line, but I like the defensive composure more. With three reputable two-way forwards, including Rick MacLeish who I thought about taking at 311 before you scooped him. I also believe this is a lethal scoring line that will also be tough to contain defensively.

As other people have mentioned, I believe MacLeish is around average for defensive play, obviously th ekey to this line is Bathgate. The line is set up how it needs to be inorder for Bathgate to be his best.

Bathgates offensive resume is very close to Jean Belliveaus and he know has a clutch goal scoring centre in Macleish.

The line may revolve around Bathgate, but the key member is Bathgate. I'm not sure if I need to post anymore quotes on his style of play, but he is exactly the kind of player Bathgate needs on his LW to be effective.

Here is the chart that Overpass created for ES scoring among Bathgates prime (I hope a mod can edit into a chart):

Overall scoring from 1955-56 to 1963-64
Player ESG ESA ESP PPG PPA PPP
Bathgate 200 290 490 47 155 202
Howe G 193 247 440 91 150 241
Beliveau 179 238 417 103 146 249
Hull Bobby 178 175 353 42 64 106
Richard H 168 262 430 30 77 107
Mahovlich F 167 139 306 38 61 99
Geoffrion 166 157 323 76 120 196
Ullman 152 212 364 36 62 98
Moore 136 204 340 80 88 168


He is number one in all 3 offensive categories (ESG, ESA and ESP) I'm not sure if another team has a better offensive weapon that Bathgate on a second line.

Quote:
Third Line: Tough third line, Pulford is another guy I like at centre opposed to the wing, but not completely out of place. Poulin is a solid third line centre and Tremblay is a good bottom-six winger. I'd imagine this is the line you're going to have out against oppositions scoring lines, they'll have their way with most that's for sure.
Yes, you are correct in thinking this will be checking line. Pulford was known as one of Gordie Howes "private headaches" and Poulin was known as a shawdow for both Lemieux and Gretzky.

Regarding Poulin, there is lots of evidence to show he can easily play LW:

Quote:
the Kings obtained former Toronto Maple Leafs winger Bob Pulford, first as a player and then as their head coach. Under Pulford's disciplined direction, the Kings went from being one of the worst defensive teams in the league to one of the best. It took him just two seasons to lead the Kings back to the playoffs and in 1974
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Kings

Hockeyreference has him listed as a LW

Quote:
Bob Pulford scored into an open net at 19:13 of the final period tonight to ... a sweep down left wing that culminated in a 25-foot sizzler catching the top
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/a...s&pqatl=google




Quote:
Fourth Line: Not a bad fourth line, Chapman as we now know was a decent two-way player who was looked at as a playmaker. Rick Vaive on the right side was a good sniper, and is a puck winner. Hamill adds additional toughness. Definitely a fourth line with an arsenal of intangibles.


Overall strong forward corps, four lines of offensive and defensive ability, great depth.
Agreed thanks!



Quote:
First Pairing: Very strong first pairing, it killed me to pass on Jacques Laperriere at 116, but with a perennial #1 defenseman I felt it was more necessary to get offensive depth. Him and MacInnis are a solid contrasting pair, MacInnis is a strong two-way threat and Laperriere is a defensive specialist.
Thanks, I couldnt pass up on having a MacInnis - Laperierre pairing. Nalyd had them together in a 30 team draft and they were one of the top pairings. There games play well together.


Quote:
Second Pairing: I'm not totally informed on Gardiner, but I do know he was a defensive rock and was fairly consistent. Vadnais is a good offensive defenseman, so they complement each other pretty nicely.
You pretty much nailed it on the head with Gardiner. I strongly feel that if we found a little more information on him he could be considered a strong number 2 in this (let alone a number 3).


Quote:
stellar two-way defenseman, Herb Gardiner didn't make a name for himself until relatively late in his career. He was proficient at the amateur level in western Canada before traveling east to play in the NHL. Gardiner was a rock on the defense corps of every team he played on, and he was also respected for his consistent play through each season. During the late 1920s

Quote:
A surveyor by trade, Herb Gardiner was also one of hockey’s greats of his time. Born in Winnipeg in 1891, he was a dominant amateur defenseman for many years before turning pro with the Calgary Tigers of the West Coast Hockey League at the age of 29.

The transition was a successful one and Gardiner continued his stellar play, recognized as one of the top rearguards in the circuit. The Tigers travelled east in 1924 to challenge for the Stanley Cup but lost to the Canadiens, who invited Gardiner to their training camp in the fall of 1926 when the PCHL ceased operations.

He accepted and spent the next three years in the NHL, closing out his career as a member of the Canadiens. The 5-foot-10, 190-pound blue-liner was one of the bigger men in the game and among the strongest. Playing in an era that featured a far more brutal form of play than is accepted today, Gardiner was in his element when the going got rough.

As he had done in the past, the 35-year-old Gardiner quickly established himself as one of the NHL’s most skilled and consistent blue-liners. His smooth play and sound work in his own end
http://ourhistory.canadiens.com/player/Herb-Gardiner


****New Article found for HErb Gardiner from 1924:

He is generally regarded as the finest defence player in hockey today, and as a leader of the Bengals Herb has enjoyed widespread popularity for clean play and game fighting when hard pressed. He is a hard check, clever stick handler and packs the wickest shot on the club….He won the Gordon efficiency medal one year, as the most valuable man in the league

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...gardiner&hl=en


Quote:
Third Pairing: A pretty physical third pairing, Plager was a tenacious hitter and JovoCop was a strong hitter as well. I passed on Jovanovski because I didn't think he was the strongest ES performer as he has a fairly underwhelming +/-, not a terrible bottom pairing.

Goaltending: I'm not overly sold on George Hainsworth, although I believe you got him in the range where he should go. He's probably near the top of the bottom tier of goaltending, he'll keep your team in games and occasionally steal one, but he's not among the stronger starting goaltenders.

Coaching: Pete Green is a pretty reputable coach with a solid résumé.

Spares: Clint Smith is a good versatile offensive spare, nothing special defensively. I like Greschner as a seventh defenseman, brings a decent two-way game. I like Joe Lamb's two-way game and Tomas Jonsson is a solid offensive spare but doesn't provide much else.

Special Teams: PP - First line, which is a plus offensively, with Andy Bathgate and MacInnis on the point. Top tier first unit. I think MacLeish would be better than Chapman on the second PP, no? Wingers and defense are also good.

PK - Great PK forwards and defensemen.

Summary: Good two-way team, can win close games or they are capable of outscoring their opponent by a fair margin. Goaltending seems to be the biggest weakness, but overall a tough squad that I would not necessarily look forward to meeting in the playoffs. Great entry, mark.

Thanks again for the review. I really built my team on having no big weaknesses and strong defensive play.

My first line and 3rd line will both be able to handle other teams top units and I really look forward to seeing how other teams handle Mikita on line 1 and Bathgate on line 2.


Last edited by markrander87: 03-20-2012 at 09:06 AM.
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03-20-2012, 09:08 AM
  #118
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1893 Montreal AAA





Head Coach: Punch Imlach
Asst Head Coach: Joe Primeau
Captain: Phil Esposito
Assts: Pierre Pilote, Doug Bentley


Doug Bentley - Phil Esposito - Hooley Smith
Dany Heatley - Denis Savard - Larry Aurie
Jan Erixon - Orland Kurtenbach - Mike Keane
Rick Nash - Pierre Turgeon - John MacLean
F Peter McNab, LW Georges Mantha


Pierre Pilote - Bill White
Joe Hall - Babe Pratt
Rod Seiling - Shea Weber
Mark Tinordi

Billy Smith
Evgeni Nabokov

Powerplay 1:
Phil Esposito - Denis Savard - Hooley Smith
Pierre Pilote - Doug Bentley

Powerplay 2:
Dany Heatley - Pierre Turgeon - Larry Aurie
Shea Weber - Babe Pratt

Penalty Kill 1:
Orland Kurtenbach - Mike Keane
Rod Seiling - Bill White

Penalty Kill 2:
Jan Erixon - Hooley Smith
Pierre Pilote - Joe Hall

Note: During the regular season ONLY I am platooning my goalies.


Last edited by Hawkman: 03-20-2012 at 09:22 AM.
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03-20-2012, 10:00 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Yes, you are correct in thinking this will be checking line. Pulford was known as one of Gordie Howes "private headaches" and Poulin was known as a shawdow for both Lemieux and Gretzky.

Regarding Pulford, there is lots of evidence to show he can easily play LW
I don't see any problem with Bob Pulford at LW. He had probably a stronger defensive reputation at center (had some very memorable battles against Mikita, actually), but he was a stud LW, as well. Questionable HHOFer, maybe, but an elite ATD 3rd liner.

The main knock on Poulin is that he has basically only a four year peak, one more season where he was pretty good, and then fell off a cliff. I don't really know what happened to Poulin, but he burned out very quickly while still in his late 20's. I think you overdrafted Poulin slightly, and that he should go after the Goyette, Mosdell, Sanderson, Sutter run of 3rd line centers rather than before them. I think he's more on the level of a guy like Weiland, who also had a quite short peak.

Mario Tremblay is an ok third liner. Average offensive player, lots of grit, no great defensive value. I don't think this third line is as good a matchups line as Raptor seems to. It will do a pretty good job of checking, especially against teams with high-end RWs (though Tremblay won't be much help against stud LWs), but it lacks a playmaker to drive the counterattack, and so will spend more time in its own end than you'd like. I tend to agree with nik jr that the best checking units are ones that can mount meaningful offensive pressure once they win the puck, and I don't know that this one will.

The top two lines are both examples of how to build good units around a single elite centerpiece. I think Lanny MacDonald is somewhat overrated in the ATD, but then again, power wingers who can actually score always go at a premium in this thing. My main issue with Lanny is that he was a less than stellar ES scorer for an ATD 1st liner (he was less productive as ES than Bill Guerin, for example), but he was fierce and fast and he had a shot as big as his moustache, so I understand the appeal.

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03-20-2012, 10:06 AM
  #120
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One more thing, mark. Is there any new information on how Pete Green ran his teams? Green has a fine reputation as a winner from his era, but it is hard to know how well his system will fit with your personnel if we know little about his system. Without more information, I tend to consider Green a somewhat below average ATD coach when not matched with a very defensive team, which yours is not.

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03-20-2012, 10:34 AM
  #121
tony d
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Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
Lada Togliatti



Head Coach: Fred Shero

Captain: Bobby Clarke
Alternates: Dale Hawerchuk, Frantisek Pospisil

Dave Balon - Bobby Clarke - Marian Hossa
Aurel Joliat - Dale Hawerchuk - Mark Recchi
Jay Pandolfo - Steve Kasper - Joe Klukay
Eric Staal - Ryan Getzlaf - Todd Bertuzzi

Earl Seibert - Frantisek Pospisil
Jim Neilson - "Bullet" Joe Simpson
Don Awrey - Jack Laviolette

Frank "Mr Zero" Brimsek
Vladimir Dzurilla

spares: W/D Tom Anderson, D Gilles Marotte, C Jason Allison, C Rick Meagher

PP:
Marian Hossa - Bobby Clarke - Todd Bertuzzi
Dale Hawerchuk - Joe Simpson

Aurel Joliat - Ryan Getzlaf - Mark Recchi
Eric Staal - Jack Laviolette

PK:
Jay Pandolfo - Steve Kasper
Earl Seibert - Frantisek Pospisil

Bobby Clarke - Joe Klukay
Jim Neilson - Don Awrey

PK Extras:
Marian Hossa
Jack Laviolette
Let me start my assasinations with this 1:

Line 1:

This reads as more of a defensive first line as you have Dave Balon, Bobby Clarke and Marian Hossa here. While it is more of a defensive line I think that Clarke and Hossa should be a good duo. Clarke led the league in assists twice and had 6 seasons of 60 or more assists. Hossa has 4 top 10 finishes in goals for a season. That surprised me as I always thought of Hossa as a playmaker. Hossa should be the beneficiary of Clarke's passes. Balon is a tragic story as he had to retire early due to MS. Still he should complement Clarke and Hossa well as he was a good defensive player. A good 1st line overall.

Line 2:

This should be a good line as well. Joliat was known for his goal scoring ability, he also had good playmaking skills as well. On a line with Hawerchuk and Recchi I expect him to be more of a goal scorer. 1 thing that concerns me about Joliat is his lack of playoff scoring (22 points in 45 games), other than that it's a solid pick. Dale Hawerchuk is the centre here. You have to wonder just how much better his career could have been had he played anywhere else but Winnipeg during the prime of his career. That said he is an effective playmaker and decent goal scorer. His teams didn't have much success in the playoffs though you couldn't blame him for that as he got 99 points in 97 career playoff games. Mark Recchi is another player I've always liked. He reads as a playmaker the same as Hawerchuk. This line is a classic scoring line, the lack of grit here could cost you but other than that it's a solid 2nd line.

Line 3:

This reads as a classic checking line in all senses of the word. Pandolfo was noted for his great ability to play in the corners. Kasper is one of the better 3rd line centres in this draft. He is a former Selke winner and has a somewhat defensive game having gotten 50 points 5 times in a season. Klukay reads as a good 2 way player so he was a good choice as well. There is no superstar 2 way guy here which could hurt you a little but other than that this is a good checking line.

Line 4:

This is really modern line but it has 3 really good modern players so it will work. Staal has turned into a consistent 70 point guy which is good for a 4th liner even here. I think he'll be the goal scorer here as he is a 2 time 40 goal scorer. Though, like the Anaheim Ducks, Getzlaf has regressed a bit this season. That said the guy is still one of the elite playmakers in the league right now, solid pick. Bertuzzi should be your grit guy here, the guy will never put up the elite offensive numbers that he had in Vancouver again but he's still a solid player. I'd expect him to provide grit to let Staal and Getzlaf do their thing and chip in a scattered goal.

Forward Spares:

Meagher works well as a good defensive centre. Jason Allison was a great playmaker during his time. As he played more time at forward than he did defense, I'll assume you're playing Anderson here, Anderson was a good scorer, should be a good bench option no matter where you play him.

D Pairing 1:

Earl Seibert reads as one of the better defensive defenseman in NHL history, he should serve you well as your team's anchor on defense. I would have put him as an alternate captain ahead of Popisil. Popisil is another good 2 way defenseman, perhaps the best defenseman to come from Czechoslovakia, this reads as more of a defensive first pairing but Popisil still had a decent offensive game.

D Pairing 2:

Jim Neilson is another good defensive defenseman that you drafted that is tough but clean, much like Seibert. Simpson is a really good offensive defenseman. Though small he often played bigger than what he was. Solid 2nd pairing.

D Pairing 3:

Don Awrey is a good guy for a 3rd pairing. He was known as more of a stay at home guy during his career. Playing with Bobby Orr only helped him as it showed that the coach had faith in Awrey in playing him with Orr. Laviolette reads as more of an offensive guy which is always good to have on a 3rd pairing. Solid pairing.

D Extras: Gilles Marotte was an excellent choice for you being that you may have a lack of scoring on defense. He played a decent defensive game as well.

Goalies:

As I said to you off the board had I gone with my original plan and picked a winger to go with Messier in Round 2 and waited until Round 4 to get a goalie Brimsek would have been 1 of my top choices to be in net. Just a solid goalie. Unlike Hall he's not in that 1st tier of great goalies but he ranks high in that 2nd tier, really good pick.

Dzurilla is a solid backup as well. Like Brimsek he is regarded as his country's top goalie ever. Should Brimsek falter Dzurilla should be able to step in and be a good goalie for you.

Special Teams:

I'd put Joliat on my 1st line on the power play if I was you, move Mark Recchi up to the 1st line right wing spot and put Bertuzzi as the left winger on the 2nd line, other than that it's a solid power play lineup. Really like Hawerchuk on the point.

Your PK works as well. It'll be hard for teams to score Power Play Goals against you given the number of defensive defensemen on your team.

Coaching:

Shero is one of the top coaches ever, you really can't go wrong with this pick.

Overall:

I like your team a lot. It strikes the right balance between offense and defense. Maybe a gritty 2 way guy for the 2nd line could have worked as well as another offensive defenseman. Other than that it's a well constructed team and should be a tough team in the regular season and a tough out in the playoffs.

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03-20-2012, 10:41 AM
  #122
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Wish I had some time to do my own bios but barely had time to research this draft. I'll link up whatever old bios I can find when my internet is working better.

Defiitely open to suggestions as far as shuffling lines goes. I'm not really sure who to use as my 4th PK defensman, or whether or not I should move Babe Siebert up on PP 2 either.

Halifax Mooseheads


GMs: Stoneberg & raleh
Coaches: Anatoli Tarasov & Arkady Chernyshev
Captian: Siebert
Alternate Captains: Lowe, McKenney, Arbour


Roster
Valeri Kharlamov - Cyclone Taylor - Ken Hodge
Bun Cook - Mickey MacKay - Cecil Dillon
Don Marshall - Don McKenney (A) - Jerry Toppazzini
Camille Henry - Cal Gardner - Pit Martin

Mark Howe - Babe Siebert (C)
Kevin Lowe (A) - Ken Reardon
Al Arbour (A) - James Patrick

Ed Giacomin
John Vanbiesbrouck

Spares:
Lubomir Visnovsky, D
Jack Marks, F/D
Fred Whitcroft, F

1st PP Unit
Kharlamov - Henry - Hodge
Howe - Taylor

2nd PP Unit
Cook - MacKay - Dillon
Siebert - Reardon

-Taylor and Howe will play the majority of PP time.

PK Forwards
McKenney - Marshall
MacKay - Toppazzini
Martin (maybe Gardner or Dillon in a pinch?)

PK Defensemen
Lowe - Siebert
Arbour - Reardon/Howe

Minute distribution - TBD

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03-20-2012, 11:00 AM
  #123
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
The Cincinnati Fireworks

Head Coach: Pete Green


Syd Howe - Stan Mikita - Lanny McDonald (A)
Dean Prentice - Rick MacLeish - Andy Bathgate
Bob Pulford - Dave Poulin (C) - Mario Tremblay
Red Hamill - Art Chapman - Rick Vaive


Al MacInnis (A)
- Jacques Laperriere
Carol Vadnais - Herb Gardiner
Barclay Plager (A) - Ed Jovanovski

George Hainsworth
Mike Vernon



Extras: Clint Smith LW/C, Ron Greschner D, Fred Lake F/D




Powerplay:

Syd Howe - Stan Mikita - Lanny McDonald
Al Macinnis - Andy Bathgate

Rick MacLeish - Art Chapman - Rick Vaive
Carol Vadnais - Ed Jovanovski



Penalty Kill:

Bob Pulford - Dave Poulin
Jacques Laperierre - Herb Gardiner

Stan Mikita - Rick MacLeish
Al MacInnis - Barclay Plager

Dean Prentice - Syd Howe
Jacques Laperierre - Herb Gardiner
Some quick notes since you've gotten it already.

Coaching and leadership:

I remember Bugg arguing a few drafts ago that Green could win using any system; maybe you can dig up the posts. *

Piggybackying off sturm's comments, from what I know about the Sen dynasty, his forwards played fairly defensively, which doesn't exactly fit your team. * He's not a bad coach for your team, but not a perfect one. *

Team leadership is fine, not exceptional.

Forwards:

Mikita is a great two-way center. *His wings aren't the most spectacular (Howe is an okay first liner, MacDonald is more of a natural second liner), but they aren't bad and they should have very good chemistry with him. *This line has a little of everything and will score.

Bathgate carries the second line as he did in real life. *Normally, I wouldn't like Prentice as a second liner, but his real life chemistry with Bathgate elevates him, and he can do all the dirty work for the line. *MacLeisch isn't the best second line center, but he should be able to convert Bathgate's passes and his playoff experience helps.

Even more than the first line, your second line seems to be two lesser players built around one star, but the chemistry is very good an that star should elevate his linemates. **

Pulford is an excellent third liner at either C or LW. *Poulin is a good third line center, but I agree that Pulford could use a better playmaker to be useful on the counterattack. *In real life, Poulin was flanked by Brian Propp who was something of a playmaker himself. *Mario Tremblay seems like a weak link - he has a lot of grit and can chip in points, but doesn't have the defensive credentials of the other two.

4th line brings some offense. *Two gritty wingers and Chapman. *I don't think Chapman is anything special defensively, but at least he cares about defense which is nice next to Vaive, who doesn't.

Defense

MacInnis is a great offensive #1 who is pretty good in his own zone at even strength. *Solid #1 overall. *Lapperiere is an excellent defensive minded #2 who isn't inept with the puck on his stick. *If this pairing has a weakness, it is lack of physicality, but that isn't a big deal and it's definitely an above average top pair.

Gardiner is a solid two-way #3. *If he played longer, he'd probably be an elite #3, but he didn't. * Vadnais has been talked to death and I think he's an adequate #4. *This pair is nothing spectacular, but they get the job done. *

Bottom pair brings the physicality, big time, which is good because that's what the rest of your D lacks. *They might be burned occasionally while looking for the big play, but they'll create a lot of havoc out there too and Jovo will create some offense.

Spares: *Clint Smith is a good offensive spare. *Greshner is a good offense-only spare, but you could be in trouble if one of your defensive defensemen is hurt. *Isn't Fred Lake on Vecens' team, not yours?

Goaltending: Hainsworth is solid, probably a bit below average, but not much. *Great value where you got him. * * Vernon is a decent backup.

Special teams:

MacInnis-Bathgate is probably the second best set of point men in the draft after Orr/Geoffrion and Mikita is excellent up front. *The wings are less impressive (though MacDonald has the right skills to go to the net), but overall it's a very good first PP unit.

The second unit is as weak as the first one is strong. *Only Vadnais looks like a bright spot, everyone else is ok, but seems below average for his role. **

Poulin, Pulford, and Lapperiere are elite PKs and Gardiner is okay. *Overall a very strong first PK

I would prefer to take MacInnis off the PK entirely and give him as much PP/ES time as possible, since he's most deadly at the point in the offensive zone. *But that would mean giving Vadnais a regular PK shift - hmmm. **

Mikita is good on the 2nd wave. *MacLeisch seems like a weakness on the second unit. *

Howe and Prentice are fine third unit PKers (both would probably be better than MacLeisch).

Overall:

Excellent one-two punch with Mikita and Bathgate, and their lines are very well built around them. *Bathgate's linemates could be just a little stronger from a talent perspective, but he will elevate them. *The-one two punch will be difficult to cover for teams that only have one checking unit. *After your offensive catalysts, the offensive depth is fairly weak, as you can see from the fact that you have one of the best 1st PPs in the league and one of the worst 2nd PPs. *2/3 of a great checking line that won't provide much offense. **

Very good top defensive pair followed by two average pairs = above average defense overall.

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03-20-2012, 11:32 AM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
AK BARS KAZAN



Coach: Toe Blake
Captain: Sprague Cleghorn
Alternate Captains: Zdeno Chara, Eric Desjardins, Mike Modano

#26 Mats Naslund - #10 Jean Ratelle - #68 Jaromir Jagr
#7 Vic Stasiuk - #9 Mike Modano (A) - #33 Zigmund Palffy
#8 Johnny Wilson - #18 Walt Tkaczuk - #16 Eric Nesterenko
#25 Dave Andreychuk - #15 Bobby Smith - #17 Mike Foligno
#4 Bob Davidson
#14 Barney Stanley
#12 Tom Lysiak

#3 Zdeno Chara (A) - #2 Sprague Cleghorn (C)
#5 Mike Ramsey - #37 Eric Desjardins (A)
#6 Calle Johansson - #23 Petr Svoboda
#44 Alexei Zhitnik

#1 Johnny Bower
#11 Roberto Luongo


PP1
Ratelle - Andreychuk - Jagr
Cleghorn - Desjardins

PP2
Naslund - Smith - Palffy
Chara - Modano


PK1
Tkaczuk - Nesterenko
Chara - Ramsey
Bower

PK2
Modano - Wilson
Cleghorn - Desjardins
Bower

other PKers: Johansson, Svoboda, Ratelle, Palffy, Smith, Davidson, Stanley, Lysiak, Zhitnik
Another one of my favorite teams in this draft. nik and I entered the ATD at the same time (along with arrbez, I believe), in ATD#8, and I have long considered him to be one of the draft's finest GMs. nik is one of the real history nerds like myself who seems to love digging through old newspaper clippings and learning about old-time hockey just for the hell of it, but he's not as much of a loudmouth as I am, and maybe that's why his teams are often underrated. This may be his best team yet.

Overall: A team designed to control the play, this Ak Bars entry features a rock solid defense, a stud goalie, a top coach, strong two-way play down the middle and a frightening first unit weapon in Jaromir Jagr. One of the real contenders to win it all.

Goal: Not much needs to be said about Johnny Bower. He is a stud, and a guy who can steal games for you in the postseason. I wouldn't take him above Frank Brimsek, myself, but you still got Bower at fine value outside of the top-100. An excellent second tier goalie. Luongo is a strong regular season backup.

Defense: Terrifically physical and talented first pairing. Cleghorn and Chara will strike fear into the hearts of soft or injury prone units whenever they step on the ice, and lines built around cycling the puck down low will not be able to hold onto the puck for long against these two. Cleghorn is an average to above-average all-around #1 defenseman, and Chara is a high-end #2. Together, they form one of the better pairings in the league.

The second pairing is also very strong. I am a big fan of Eric Desjardins, who I think is a strong two-way #3 in the ATD. His AST voting record shows pretty well, I think, what kind of player he was:

Quote:
Eric Desjardins:

1991-92: 11th
1994-95: 5th
1995-96: 9th
1996-97: 10th
1998-99: 4th
1999-00: 4th
2000-01: 13th
2002-03: 17th
A very nice three year peak as a top-5ish defenseman in the league, and then another 4-5 seasons of top-10ish value added to that. Just a very strong two-way player. Mike Ramsey is another second pairing defenseman who I like a lot, and another guy who I think may have been somewhat underrated thus far. Here are Ramsey's AST voting results:

Quote:
Mike Ramsey:

1982-83: 16th
1983-84: 6th
1984-85: 14th
1986-87: 13th
1989-90: 8th
That's a strong record for a #4 stay at home guy, and Ramsey has respectable career value outside of those years. Overall, a strong second pairing, and a very strong top-4 with four talented, physical players. With Bower backstopping them, this defense will be a tough nut to crack.

Forwards: Jaromir Jagr is obviously a very dangerous weapon on your first line, and I like Jean Ratelle a lot as a distributor and defensive conscience for Jagr. Ratelle's only real weakness, that he could be intimidated physically, is well taken care of by your very tough top-4 defensemen. Just an excellent first line pairing. I don't much care for Naslund to round out the unit. The one thing Ratelle - Jagr lack is a puckwinner, and you didn't get them that, which I think hurts the line. Moving Stasiuk up would help address this problem, but he doesn't really belong on a first line on merit, and that makes Modano your primary puckwinner on the second line, which is less than ideal. It's a very dangerous line, but it won't see as much of the puck as maybe you'd like.

The second line is...an odd mix of parts. For one thing, it lacks a high-end playmaker at even strength. Palffy was a pretty biased goalscorer at even strength, and Modano was more of a well-rounded scorer - not really a guy who should drive the playmaking of an ATD scoringline alone, and Vic Stasiuk is certainly not going to fix the problem. Both Modano and Palffy were pretty good at creating offense on their own, so it's not a terrible deficiency, but I do think the line lacks something in creativity. Palffy is fine as a 2nd line winger, but Stasiuk is well below average, though useful as a puckwinner. It's overall a below average second line that will disappear at times, I think.

Tkaczuk is a very strong two-way 3rd line center who is a personal favorite of mine. Nesterenko is a very good checker with pretty decent offensive value. His scoring in the context of an O6 checkingline is actually pretty good. Johnny Wilson doesn't really belong on an ATD 3rd line. I see him as more of an average 4th liner, actually, and maybe an MLD player. There's just nothing that stands out to me about him as particularly good except for the fact that he was an ironman. It would be a very strong two-way line with a better LW, but I think with Wilson in there, it is only an average unit.

In general, I think this is one of the real contenders for the Milt Dunnell Cup this year. From the two-way centers to the defense to the goalie, they will be tough to score on, and keeping Jagr off the scoresheet will be very difficult, as well. The fact that they can also throw Dave Andreychuk out there on the first unit PP will make it even harder to shut them out, and I think this team will win a lot of low scoring games. Opponents will probably try to heap defensive pressure on Jagr, and nobody on that top line was really a playoff stud, so they may succeed at times, and when they do, there's not a whole lot of offense left. In spite of the strong defensemen, the second unit isn't that great, and the third line is only 2/3rds of a good unit that will struggle in the matchups game against stud offensive RWs, of which there are many in the ATD. There isn't a checking LW on the entire team, which is a weakness that some opponents will be able to exploit, and one that I don't think even Toe Blake can coach around. Nevertheless, this is a team that should go deep into the playoffs.

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03-20-2012, 11:54 AM
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Rob Scuderi
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Really appreciate the insight here. Confirmed some of my suspicions and opened my eyes to some things I didn't consider.

Yeah I definitely felt some shame picking Roberts over so many of the other options out there. I got way too caught up in the silly intangibles game and panicked after Cashman went. Blunder indeed.

I agree too about the value of where I got Worsley. Definitely didn't anticipate the glut of talented netminders available later on. I still think Gump is a great goalie though and think I took him in the right order among other goalies even if the value was a bit off.

I didn't make a bio on Hedberg yet but I found a few compliments on his defensive game and Fred Shero was complimentary of his willingness to go in the corners. To your point though, the willingness and effectiveness in an ATD setting are much different. I'm just worried Pappin gives up too much offensively, but at the same time I don't want a player who can't keep up physically with how Lindros and LeClair play so I'll have to think on this one.

Also isn't Richard that safety valve on that top line? I see Roberts doing the heavy-lifting in the corners even if Richard can keep up in that area. I saw his great two-way game as a good guy to play with Orr. Hedberg seemed decent defensively again from the little I gathered, but that's nothing too special.


Last edited by Rob Scuderi: 03-20-2012 at 04:26 PM.
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