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ATD 2012 Line-up Assassination Thread

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Old
03-20-2012, 11:55 AM
  #126
TheDevilMadeMe
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Does anyone else have issues with Sprague Cleghorn as an ATD captain? His biggest weakness as a player IMO is that he was known to out personal grudges ahead of his team, something I wouldn't want from a captain at any level.

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03-20-2012, 12:06 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I don't see any problem with Bob Pulford at LW. He had probably a stronger defensive reputation at center (had some very memorable battles against Mikita, actually), but he was a stud LW, as well. Questionable HHOFer, maybe, but an elite ATD 3rd liner.

The main knock on Poulin is that he has basically only a four year peak, one more season where he was pretty good, and then fell off a cliff. I don't really know what happened to Poulin, but he burned out very quickly while still in his late 20's. I think you overdrafted Poulin slightly, and that he should go after the Goyette, Mosdell, Sanderson, Sutter run of 3rd line centers rather than before them. I think he's more on the level of a guy like Weiland, who also had a quite short peak.

Mario Tremblay is an ok third liner. Average offensive player, lots of grit, no great defensive value. I don't think this third line is as good a matchups line as Raptor seems to. It will do a pretty good job of checking, especially against teams with high-end RWs (though Tremblay won't be much help against stud LWs), but it lacks a playmaker to drive the counterattack, and so will spend more time in its own end than you'd like. I tend to agree with nik jr that the best checking units are ones that can mount meaningful offensive pressure once they win the puck, and I don't know that this one will.

Once again, thank you for the review on my team, all input is welcomed. You'll have to excuse me, i'll have to address these posts throughout the afternoon i'm pretty busy at work.

Addressing the Counter attack for my 3rd line. My thought process behind this third line is they will be playing with MacInnis and Laperriere for the majority of their ES minutes. Both of these defenseman are great outlet passers who will create offense through the transition game with my third line.


In terms of counter attack from turnovers in the neutral zone they will be a dump and chase line (one of the major reasons I drafted Tremblay) who along with Pulford (Who was known as one of the best forcheckers of his time) will dump and chase on opposing top lines all game long.

I realize there is isn't a set playmaking forward on this line, but with how the line will work (dump and chase) as well as the two defenseman they will be playing with they will have no issues either in the offenseive end or on the counter attack.

The best defense is to keep the other team hemmed in their own zone, so I disagree a playmaking forward would have been more benefitial.

Dump and chase and cycle the pants of those 1st line ATD forwards.


Quote:
The top two lines are both examples of how to build good units around a single elite centerpiece. I think Lanny MacDonald is somewhat overrated in the ATD, but then again, power wingers who can actually score always go at a premium in this thing. My main issue with Lanny is that he was a less than stellar ES scorer for an ATD 1st liner (he was less productive as ES than Bill Guerin, for example), but he was fierce and fast and he had a shot as big as his moustache, so I understand the appeal.

I'll address this more when I quote TDMM thoughts, but what happened in the 2 year span where people were raving over 70's Mikita- McDonald Tandem?

McDonald is the perfect winger for Mikita. He had one of the best shots of his time and was a big enough power forward to play physical but still has the speed to keep up with Mikita.

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03-20-2012, 12:18 PM
  #128
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Who was raving over 70s Mikita-MacDonald combo? I remember that team well (it was one of the top teams in ATD2010 and in my division), and it was generally thought that wingers were the one weakness - though I think more people had issue with Heatley on a first line than MacDonald. I agree that from a skill set standpoint, MacDonald is a great fit with Mikita. And Syd Howe is better than Heatley (especially Heatley of 2 years ago)

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03-20-2012, 12:22 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
But given that he was such a big player and primarily a goalscorer, I can definitely see how you might assume he was a plodding winger who just crashed the net for goals. I probably would have too if I hadn't researched the guy.
Pretty much.

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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Just taking out the trash so to speak on a few items.

Re: Middleton playing a lot of minutes:

Sports Illustrated, March 30, 1981:

September 27, 1984, Lewiston Daily Sun, Middleton himself:


So I feel pretty confident he'll be okay with the ice time.

Re Doan: Doan has killed about a minutes worth of penalties per game since '08-'09, and before then from 02-08 was always between 1:30-2 mins a game. All this while being the most dangerous offensive weapon on the Coyotes, meaning they had to limit his PK time.

I've been working on finding Doan killing penalties in the WCs, and have found some things that I like that describe his play there but I am as of yet still unable to find actual physical evidence that he did it:

Pierre Lebrun, Canadian Press, May 11, 2003. Shows us he's willing to sacrifice his body, which is of course an important of PKing:

I can't find any sort of line combos or anything like that for the years he was in the WCs, but either way, the guy's game is suited to PK, and he's proven that he can do it for the Coyotes despite the fact that they need his scoring. I think that should be enough.
GF/GA indicates he was definitely a big minute forward.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Vecens, only 11 forwards in the NHL this season are over 21 min per game and only 2 (Kovalchuk and St Louis) are at more than 22. I just can't see Rick Middleton as a 21.5 minute man at this level.
Agree.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Considering the number of bad team scorers on terrible expansion teams in the 70s, it seems pretty ridiculous that UH would have called MacLeisch the worst defensive forward of the decade.

I mean, it's not like anything but UH says he was even bad, right?
Agree.

Where there’s smoke there’s fire, so I doubt he was any good, but worst of the decade was ridiculous, and I had a lot of evidence to support that two drafts ago.

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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
:
My only real comment here is regarding Syd Howe. I hope he doesn't get too underrated here. He is a special player because he received numerous AS votes on both left wing and Centre.
.
This is true. When compiling this data into lists from BM’s research, I was surprised at how little recognition he got. He did get 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 34 voting points in his non-all-star years but I was really hoping for more. He’s one of my favourites, and in his case I think his strong hart voting says more than his weak all-star voting.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Does anyone else have issues with Sprague Cleghorn as an ATD captain? His biggest weakness as a player IMO is that he was known to out personal grudges ahead of his team, something I wouldn't want from a captain at any level.
Out of 25 picks, you have to have three better options to wear letters.

I think it was a few drafts ago I had Cleghorn wearing a letter, but my co-GM absolutely insisted on it. He wanted Clegs to be the pace-setter for our badass top-4 of Cleghorn, Horner, Coulter and Conacher.

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03-20-2012, 12:24 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I'll address this more when I quote TDMM thoughts, but what happened in the 2 year span where people were raving over 70's Mikita- McDonald Tandem?
Like TDMM said, I don't remember any "raving"... I was pretty disappointed with the reception to my forwards, particularly the RWs and the Stasiuk-MacLeish-Recchi 3rd line which had the potential to be lethal.

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03-20-2012, 12:29 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Does anyone else have issues with Sprague Cleghorn as an ATD captain? His biggest weakness as a player IMO is that he was known to out personal grudges ahead of his team, something I wouldn't want from a captain at any level.
I agree. How about Chara as Captain? He's so big and tough he might actually be able to keep Cleghorn in line a little bit.

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03-20-2012, 12:40 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Some quick notes since you've gotten it already.

Coaching and leadership:

I remember Bugg arguing a few drafts ago that Green could win using any system; maybe you can dig up the posts.

Piggybackying off sturm's comments, from what I know about the Sen dynasty, his forwards played fairly defensively, which doesn't exactly fit your team. * He's not a bad coach for your team, but not a perfect one. *
Again thank you for the review All input is appreciated


Here is the Bio by LF. http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=137


My reasoning behind pick Green is that I wanted a well balanced coach who would allow Bathgate to play his style of play while on and yet still accommodate my defensive players as well. Green also had very good playoff results as well.

I'm surprised with all of the comments referring to my team as "not that defensive" With forwards like: Mikita, Bathgate, Howe, McDonald, MacLeish, Poulin and Pulford on my top 9 and with my top 3 being MacInnis, Laperierre and Gardiner I have above average team defense and I have nobody on my top 9 who is known for being a negative defensively.




Quote:
Forwards:

Mikita is a great two-way center. *His wings aren't the most spectacular (Howe is an okay first liner, MacDonald is more of a natural second liner), but they aren't bad and they should have very good chemistry with him. *This line has a little of everything and will score.

I still think Howe is being criminally underrated here. How many LW have 3 seasons of top 5 Hart voting? This guy was an all arounf stud, who will work very well with Mikita.

The whole basis behind this line is speed. Mikita was part of the scooter line and this is a suped up version. Mcdonald like I already said brings that rare combination of goal scoring, speed and physical play for a late round RW. Howe who has a good combination of playmaking and goal scoring will take advantage of Mikitas goal scoring as well.


Quote:
Bathgate carries the second line as he did in real life. *Normally, I wouldn't like Prentice as a second liner, but his real life chemistry with Bathgate elevates him, and he can do all the dirty work for the line. *MacLeisch isn't the best second line center, but he should be able to convert Bathgate's passes and his playoff experience helps.

The Bathgate hate is a little surprising, what makes 2nd line Glue guys like: Bruce Stuart, Bun cook, Brian Sutter, Wendall Clarke, Baldy Northcott (and Harry Watson), Patrick Elias, Clark Gillies etc... better options? Prentice bring a great mix of physical and defensive play and can also put the puck in the net. His longevity is also a plus.






Quote:
Pulford is an excellent third liner at either C or LW. *Poulin is a good third line center, but I agree that Pulford could use a better playmaker to be useful on the counterattack. *In real life, Poulin was flanked by Brian Propp who was something of a playmaker himself. *Mario Tremblay seems like a weak link - he has a lot of grit and can chip in points, but doesn't have the defensive credentials of the other two.
As I mentioned above, With forcheckers like Pulford and Tremblay this line will be a dump and chase, cycle line, who will also be fed outless passes from MacInnis and Laperierre.


Defense

Quote:
MacInnis is a great offensive #1 who is pretty good in his own zone at even strength. *Solid #1 overall. *Lapperiere is an excellent defensive minded #2 who isn't inept with the puck on his stick. *If this pairing has a weakness, it is lack of physicality, but that isn't a big deal and it's definitely an above average top pair.
Agreed, I would challenge this is a top 5 top pairing in the draft.


Quote:
Gardiner is a solid two-way #3. *If he played longer, he'd probably be an elite #3, but he didn't. * Vadnais has been talked to death and I think he's an adequate #4. *This pair is nothing spectacular, but they get the job done. *

I quoted raptor and gave new info on Gardiner from 1924 ssaying he was known as the top defenseman in the land. How many numbers 3's have ever been the top defenseman? Then we factor in his Hart year and the year after.



Quote:
Bottom pair brings the physicality, big time, which is good because that's what the rest of your D lacks. *They might be burned occasionally while looking for the big play, but they'll create a lot of havoc out there too and Jovo will create some offense.
Agreed, that was my plan with these two. Gardiner and Vadnais and Laperriere to an extent can bring a physical game as well (especially Gardiner)


Quote:
Spares: *Clint Smith is a good offensive spare. *Greshner is a good offense-only spare, but you could be in trouble if one of your defensive defensemen is hurt. *Isn't Fred Lake on Vecens' team, not yours?

Yes I dont know why I had Fred Lake as a spare, that has been fixed.


Quote:
Goaltending: Hainsworth is solid, probably a bit below average, but not much. *Great value where you got him. * * Vernon is a decent backup.
Agreed

Special teams:

Quote:
MacInnis-Bathgate is probably the second best set of point men in the draft after Orr/Geoffrion and Mikita is excellent up front. *The wings are less impressive (though MacDonald has the right skills to go to the net), but overall it's a very good first PP unit.

The second unit is as weak as the first one is strong. *Only Vadnais looks like a bright spot, everyone else is ok, but seems below average for his role. **
I agree to an extent, however Rick Vaive was a great net presence and with Vadnais on the point an dhe in front they will score their fair share of PP goals.


Quote:
Poulin, Pulford, and Lapperiere are elite PKs and Gardiner is okay. *Overall a very strong first PK

I would prefer to take MacInnis off the PK entirely and give him as much PP/ES time as possible, since he's most deadly at the point in the offensive zone. *But that would mean giving Vadnais a regular PK shift - hmmm. **

Mikita is good on the 2nd wave. *MacLeisch seems like a weakness on the second unit. *

Howe and Prentice are fine third unit PKers (both would probably be better than MacLeisch).

Overall:

Excellent one-two punch with Mikita and Bathgate, and their lines are very well built around them. *Bathgate's linemates could be just a little stronger from a talent perspective, but he will elevate them. *The-one two punch will be difficult to cover for teams that only have one checking unit. *After your offensive catalysts, the offensive depth is fairly weak, as you can see from the fact that you have one of the best 1st PPs in the league and one of the worst 2nd PPs. *2/3 of a great checking line that won't provide much offense. **

Very good top defensive pair followed by two average pairs = above average defense overall.


Sorry I am rushing this response, I'm at work, I will however move Prentice to the 2nd unit PK and take Macleish off. Thanks for the suggestion there I do agree.

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03-20-2012, 12:54 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post


PP1

Kariya-Nieuwendyk-Howe
Salming-Larson

PP2

Moore-Primeau-Dye
Goodfellow-Stanfield

PK1

Primeau-Fleming
Salming-Smith

PK2

Moore-Linden
Goodfellow-Reise

PK3

Graves-Howe
Boivin-Smith

Notes:

-Gordie Howe will double shift with the 4th line alongside Reg Fleming and Trevor Linden to form a big, physical shutdown line when necessary at the end of games. I have no checking line, I know. I did not feel that I needed one.
-If the matchup dictates it, Kenny Wharram will be scratched in favor of Bill Thoms to form a checking line.
-Reg Fleming is capable of playing both defense and LW.
-Bill Thoms is capable of filling in at all forward positions, and was so good defensively as a forward that he was used as a defenseman in a pinch.
-Before you jump on Salming being on all the first units, his longevity was legendary, and I think he can do it. The other defensemen in this doing the triple threat are Lidstrom, Orr, Bourque, Brewer, Chelios, Harvey, Potvin, and Fetisov for a point of reference.
-We will not be doing a lot of line matching because we are comfortable having pretty much any line out with any pairing.
-With the way my division was built, the strength is overwhelmingly on the RW. So, I have 3 very good defensive LWs and one average one that is flanked by 2 big, strong two-way players(Kariya).
Pretty much every draft I've competed in with Billy has been a strong entry, and this is no different.

First line is strong. Clearly will always be above average with Howe there. The guy can do it all. I like putting Kariya specifically with him. Really helps him with Howe being able to clear a lot of space on the ice for him. Nieuwendyk is a weak offensive first liner, but he fits well. This is defintiely a strong first line.

Second line is great too. Dickie Moore is a first liner playing on the second line so this line automatically has an advantage there. Primeau is a very good second line center, and Dye is a good sniper. I'm not the biggest Dye fan and I think you could have helped him a little more here by complimenting him with size as opposed to Dickie Moore's aggressiveness, but it's still a strong second line as well.

Third line is another scoring line pretty much. You've really done well (something I didn't do at all last year) to help Hyland reach his potential by putting him with two guys that can stand up for him. I don't think Graves belongs in a top 9, but he fits perfectly on this line as he can be a pest, be aggressive, and hit everything, plus be solid defensively. Stanfield works well as the physical distributor of this line as well. It's another scoring line that plays physical, and should be fairly effective in doing so.

Fourth line is another physical line with Linden and Fleming. Wharram is another guy in the Lynn Patrick mold that belongs in the top 9 but just got unfairly shoved down the line this time. The line works as an energy line. If you're planning on playing this line against the great RWs in this division, well good luck because I'm not sure how effective you'll really be, but if you use it as an energy line it'll work really well.

Forwards overall: This is among the best group of forwards in the draft in my opinion. It's got a little bit of everything as far as offense will go. Probably among the most physical as well. Also just a note, I would never scratch Wharram from your 4th line. In my opinion he's your 9th best forward (better than Graves, Fleming, Linden) . Even though you're strong at RW, I'd keep him there at all times, and scratch Linden in favor of Thoms.

Top 4 defense: Overall it's probably a lower half group because of a lack of top end talent, but it's not a bad group either. Salming is probably in the 20-25 range of defensemen (he fits the transition game well though to get the puck to your forwards), Goodfellow will be about an average to slightly above average 2. Goodfellow is a guy who has always kind of intrigued me, as I'm really not sure how he played. He seems like a Shea Weber to me as far as a physical guy with a hard shot, but that's really all I know. Either way you've insulated him with Reise, who will be able to stay at home if Goodfellow strays too far from the nest. Boivin is solid 3/4.

Bottom pairing: Larson seems like a good PP specialist chilling on that bottom pairing, and Dalllas Smith is a damn good six.

Goaltending: Holocek is about as average a goaltender as you're going to get here. I'm also a big proponent of Lundqvist, so I think you'll be fine here.

Just general other thoughts on special teams, etc:

Overall with your forward group your PP will be very good.

PK will be fine.

Salming playing all three top units will tire him down, and he is an integral part of your defense. It's kind of like the trouble I ran into with Middleton. He's a big special teams player, but he probably shouldn't do it. I'd probably move him down to the second PK unit and move Reise up.

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Old
03-20-2012, 01:01 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Selling a guy who averaged 10 PIM per season, had 0 PIM in his best season and was known for his 'quiet, even temperament on the ice' as bodyguard seems like a tall order.
I'm not selling Watson as a guy whose going to run around starting fights and putting guys through the end boards (my apologies if I've given that impression). But I'll absolutely sell him as a guy who can play the "deterrent" role beside Gretzky and Kurri. Watson was very much a feared fighter, and a guy that other teams knew not to mess with (or learned in a hurry, in a couple cases).

I've made these quotes super-small to try and avoid being too obnoxious, since this isn't the Harry Watson Info Thread, after all.

That said, he is a guy who seems to be fairly unknown in terms of his skillset. I didn't know much about him until I started looking at "glue guy" LWers, and I don't blame anyone else for not knowing much about him either. Definitely one of the least known modern-era Hall of Famers.


* Watson was a big and brawny left wing with an easy going manner. He was quite aggressive and could fight, but never pushed things too far and consequently did not get a great many penalties - Trail of the Stanley Cup vol. 3

* The little-known Watson went on to help the Leafs win four Stanley Cups by adding some toughness and scoring on the wing. The rugged native of Saskatoon was one of the NHL's most feared fighters, although he did not get into many tussles since the opposition usually avoided him. For more than nine seasons Watson was a steadying influence on the Leafs. - Maple Leafs Legends

* Harry Watson could duke it out pretty well if he was mad, so opposing coaches always told their teams not to wake him up. - Red's Story

* There seems to be a consensus among veterans of the six-team era when they remember Harry Watson. Watson, they agree, was a force to be reckoned with when agitated - Heroes: Stars of Hockey's Golden Era

* ***** ********* was the Boston casualty. His nose was badly splattered when he clashed with big Harry Watson in a fist-swinging duel. Dr. Horace McIntyre, Leafs physician who has been checking the health of pro hockey players for more than two decades, says he has never seen a nose so badly smashed. - Globe and Mail, 1948-04-01

* Ted Lindsay, spotting Watson approximately 40 pounds, clashed with the big boy. He took one blow from the Toronto left winger, and then retreated, but fast. - Globe and Mail, 1948-04-12

* Every NHL skater respected Watson's fightning ability although he frequently was a candidate for the Lady Bing trophy. - Who's Who in Hockey






Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I obviously didn't research him, but without a bio link I read up on him on LOH and there's no word or even a hint of any defensive ability whatsoever. Not that the line is in particularly dire need of it with Kurri around.
I find the LOH bios omit a lot of stuff. I'm pretty sure we do more research here than they did for those. Not that I blame them for taking shortcuts when they have to write a bio for every player ever. .

Anyhow, here's some references to his defensive play, including multiple references to him covering both Richard and Howe.


* A near capacity crowd of 14,547 turned out at Montreal last night to watch Richard's attempt at the record. But the Rocket fizzled once again. Harry Watson was assigned the task of covering the Canadiens' star wing, and he turned in a workmanlike job....
Coach Dick Irvin admitted: "I sure would have liked to have seen the Rocket score that goal against Toronto, but those Leafs checked him like their salaries depended on it" (Meiden Daily Journal, Nov 7 1952)



* "One guy who has been playing hockey for me in this series has been Harry Watson," said Smythe. "He has been checking Howe most of the time and Howe hasn't done anything with the teams at even strength." (Globe and Mail, March 30 1954)

* Watson was a physical LW who played the game aggressively but within the rules. He was a deceptively fast skater who was used to check the opposition's top scorers, but had a good scoring touch of his own. (Total Hockey)

* Harry Watson kept a close check on Richard - (New York Times, Nov 7 1952)

* Watson, the only leaf with more than 10 goals other than the Kennedy line, trails numerous other lefties in the points department, but we guarantee, without checking, that there are not many, if any, with a better defensive record. (Globe and Mail, Dec 29, 1951)

* Harry Watson was a remarkable hockey player... Watson is remembered as a hard-working leader. Fast and strong, the bulky left winger possessed great offensive and defensive ability (Wings of Fire)

* Mosdell almost broke loose, but Harry Watson raced madly down the ice to grab the puck and save the situation. (Backcheck: A Hockey Retrospective)

* He was a big, strong man, and for fifteen years after that he always covered me when we played the Leafs. - Gordie Howe (Years of Glory)



Between Watson, Kurri, and Gretzky's always-dangerous presence on the counter-attack, I think this line is an easy plus defensively. Watson's strength and ability to overpower defenders also gives the line a presence in the tight areas along the boards and around the net.

I agree, Watson's not a first-line calibre scorer under normal circumstances. But these aren't normal circumstances. Gretzky and Kurri by themselves averaged 321 points per season over their best 5-year span (1982-1986). To put that in perspective, the Bossy-Trottier-Gillies line averaged 310 points per season in their best five-year span (1978-1982). I think Trottier-Bossy-Gillies would be a fantastic first line in the ATD. I think Watson-Gretzky-Kurri is better offensively than that, and I'm not sure they're any worse defensively.

I can't decide if what I just did there is a valuable comparison or just statistical smoke. I guess what I'm saying is that Gretzky-Kurri alone provides the offense of a very good ATD first line, and a left winger with any sort of offensive competence (which Watson had) is just gravy offensively.


Last edited by arrbez: 03-20-2012 at 01:51 PM.
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Old
03-20-2012, 01:12 PM
  #135
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Again thank you for the review All input is appreciated


Here is the Bio by LF. http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=137


My reasoning behind pick Green is that I wanted a well balanced coach who would allow Bathgate to play his style of play while on and yet still accommodate my defensive players as well. Green also had very good playoff results as well.

I'm surprised with all of the comments referring to my team as "not that defensive" With forwards like: Mikita, Bathgate, Howe, McDonald, MacLeish, Poulin and Pulford on my top 9 and with my top 3 being MacInnis, Laperierre and Gardiner I have above average team defense and I have nobody on my top 9 who is known for being a negative defensively.
. MacDonald, MacLeisch, and Bathgate were definitely not defensive player.

You're right that you have good overall team defense.



Quote:
I still think Howe is being criminally underrated here. How many LW have 3 seasons of top 5 Hart voting? This guy was an all arounf stud, who will work very well with Mikita.

The whole basis behind this line is speed. Mikita was part of the scooter line and this is a suped up version. Mcdonald like I already said brings that rare combination of goal scoring, speed and physical play for a late round RW. Howe who has a good combination of playmaking and goal scoring will take advantage of Mikitas goal scoring as well.
The issue with Howe is that he has three great seasons and nothing all that close. That said, he's a fine first line LW in a 32 team draft; I just don't think he's a great one. You can't be above average everywhere, right?

I do really like the chemistry of the first line.


Quote:
The Bathgate hate is a little surprising, what makes 2nd line Glue guys like: Bruce Stuart, Bun cook, Brian Sutter, Wendall Clarke, Baldy Northcott (and Harry Watson), Patrick Elias, Clark Gillies etc... better options? Prentice bring a great mix of physical and defensive play and can also put the puck in the net. His longevity is also a plus.
I assume you mean "the Prentice hate.". I see him as something of a better version of a Shane Doan/Brendan Morrow type - a bit weaker offensively than I'd prefer from a 2nd liner but capable if need be. Most of those guys you've listed (not Wendel Clarke and probably not Brian Sutter) have more offensive upside than Prentice. That said, he does give you a nice defensive conscience to the line in a way most of those guys you listed don't.

I thought he was a mini-reach when you picked him, but then saw you already had Bathgate and understood where you were coming from. After Bathgate left NY, Toronto tried to acquire Prentice because apparently Bathgate was a hard guy to find linemates for. So it does work for you.







Quote:
As I mentioned above, With forcheckers like Pulford and Tremblay this line will be a dump and chase, cycle line, who will also be fed outless passes from MacInnis and Laperierre.


Defense



Agreed, I would challenge this is a top 5 top pairing in the draft.





I quoted raptor and gave new info on Gardiner from 1924 ssaying he was known as the top defenseman in the land. How many numbers 3's have ever been the top defenseman? Then we factor in his Hart year and the year after.
Gardiner has a great peak - the problem is that it's only a few years long, right?
Can you repost the quote from 1924?


Quote:
Agreed, that was my plan with these two. Gardiner and Vadnais and Laperriere to an extent can bring a physical game as well (especially Gardiner)





Yes I dont know why I had Fred Lake as a spare, that has been fixed.




Agreed

Special teams:



I agree to an extent, however Rick Vaive was a great net presence and with Vadnais on the point an dhe in front they will score their fair share of PP goals.






Sorry I am rushing this response, I'm at work, I will however move Prentice to the 2nd unit PK and take Macleish off. Thanks for the suggestion there I do agree.

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03-20-2012, 01:47 PM
  #136
MadArcand
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
<Watson info>
Thanks for the info, this puts his defensive and fighting abilities in a very different light. Brings much more intangibles than it would seem at a glance. Still a bit of reach on top line, but yeah he can fill a Gillies-like role for sure.

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03-20-2012, 01:53 PM
  #137
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Wish I had some time to do my own bios but barely had time to research this draft. I'll link up whatever old bios I can find when my internet is working better.

Defiitely open to suggestions as far as shuffling lines goes. I'm not really sure who to use as my 4th PK defensman, or whether or not I should move Babe Siebert up on PP 2 either.

Halifax Mooseheads


GMs: Stoneberg & raleh
Coaches: Anatoli Tarasov & Arkady Chernyshev
Captian: Siebert
Alternate Captains: Lowe, McKenney, Arbour


Roster
Valeri Kharlamov - Cyclone Taylor - Ken Hodge
Bun Cook - Mickey MacKay - Cecil Dillon
Don Marshall - Don McKenney (A) - Jerry Toppazzini
Camille Henry - Cal Gardner - Pit Martin

Mark Howe - Babe Siebert (C)
Kevin Lowe (A) - Ken Reardon
Al Arbour (A) - James Patrick

Ed Giacomin
John Vanbiesbrouck

Spares:
Lubomir Visnovsky, D
Jack Marks, F/D
Fred Whitcroft, F

1st PP Unit
Kharlamov - Henry - Hodge
Howe - Taylor

2nd PP Unit
Cook - MacKay - Dillon
Siebert - Reardon

-Taylor and Howe will play the majority of PP time.

PK Forwards
McKenney - Marshall
MacKay - Toppazzini
Martin (maybe Gardner or Dillon in a pinch?)

PK Defensemen
Lowe - Siebert
Arbour - Reardon/Howe

Minute distribution - TBD
I honestly just picked a team to review at random. I won't go into too much detail, but I suppose I can give some type of commentary. My knowledge is limited, but I like to think I know when something "looks good", lol.

Line 1: From the looks of it, you have a very finesse and skill oriented top line, and if I can read into Taylor's versatility as a forward and a defenseman, I'd say it's got a decent two-way conscience also. I am a huge fan of Valeri Kharlamov, and he's on the list of players whom I've never picked before, but would love to have on my team at some point. Unless I'm missing something in my readings (I try to do a quick look-up of each player before my reviews), there doesn't seem to be a guy on this line who will go digging in the corners if need be. I suppose that would be my main concern, but skill wise, it's top notch.

Line 2: The two wingers you have on this line have both been drafted by me in ATD 2010, though they did not play on the same line. You definitely have a great all-around line here. All three of these guys are more than adept defensively, and you have some toughness integrated in there well, while nobody is a particularly offensive slouch. I'm a huge fan of your entire top 6 as a whole. Would have loved to see this team in action.

Line 3: Marhsall seems to be an ultimate third liner at the ATD level. From what I know about McKenney, I'd say he's also in the top tier of 3rd liners at his position (though I haven't gone through to compare/contrast). Toppazzini seems like a solid penalty-killer and a hard-nosed winger, but I do wonder how well that will translate into even strength shutdown play. Very competent 3rd line, in the end.

Line 4: I, maybe more than many GMs, can appreciate the selection of Henry as a PP specialist on the 4th line. I had actually considered him at one point in the draft for the very same role. Gardner seems to also be a very solid utility player, though I wonder if he can really cut it at the ATD level on the penalty kill (even as a 3rd string guy). Pit Martin, on the other hand, is a guy I can definitely recognize as a strong 4th liner. Overall, I can appreciate how you've used your 4th line almost as a "spare parts" line for special teams. Some may see the 4th line as a 2nd checking line, but with the way your 2nd and 3rd lines are built, I don't think you needed to do that. Great forwards overall.

Defense Pair 1: Mark Howe is also on my list of guys who I'd love to draft at some point - glad he finally got the call to the hall he so rightfully deserved. He's probably a low-end #1, but you more than make up for it with your next 2 D-Men. Babe Siebert is an excellent defenseman who is multi-talented and, overall, gives you a strong first pairing. I really don't have much to say about it, because it's just good: that's all.

Defense Pair 2: Your 2nd pairing is also quite solid. I see Kenny Reardon as a top-end 2nd pairing guy who can probably cut it as a #1 in the scope of a 32-team draft. Interesting how he and Gardner are on the same team. Kevin Lowe, to me, does not stand out as being exceptionally good or bad at this position.

Defense Pair 3: This seems like your prototypical defence pairing: one puck-mover, and one shutdown guy. Patrick is more of a guy who will actually carry the puck up the ice as opposed to passing it, and might get caught on a few occasions because of it. I don't know very much about Arbour as a player, but I do remember him being listed as a strong positional player, so maybe he can make up for that, depending on who's attacking.

Goalies: Giacomin is a low-end starter, and I'm sure you already know that. Usually, however, that won't hurt you too much as ATD canon seems to be moving away from the idea that a good team NEEDS a great goalie to be successful, so I don't think you'll lose too many points here. Beezer is a personal favourite of mine, though he doesn't quite make up for Giacomin's relative weakness. You seem to have a strong team defensively, so you might be okay.

Coaching: How can you go wrong with the Tarasov/Chernyshev duo? I had that coaching duo once in an old ATD and it turned my coaching (which, for some reason, was a weakness with just Tarasov) into a strength. Probably one of, if not the best coached team in this draft, though you're talking to a guy who always drafts his coaches very late, and does not believe that a coach can propel a team higher than, say, a goalie can.

Special Teams: I think I covered a lot of this earlier, but both your PP and PK units are filled with more than competent players. I'm getting lazy though, so this is when my comments get shorter.

Spares: You're a stud.

Overall: Good team, as is the norm for you. I don't remember if we're in the same division, but if we are: I hate you.

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03-20-2012, 01:57 PM
  #138
TheDevilMadeMe
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I agree. How about Chara as Captain? He's so big and tough he might actually be able to keep Cleghorn in line a little bit.
I guess it could work though if it weren't for 2011, Chara's legacy as captain wouldn't be any better than Thornton's. I don't really see a natural captain on nik's team. It's not a huge deal, someone like Chara won't be much of a positive at C but he won't hurt either. I could see Cleghorn being a negative at C

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03-20-2012, 02:04 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
.




The issue with Howe is that he has three great seasons and nothing all that close. That said, he's a fine first line LW in a 32 team draft; I just don't think he's a great one. You can't be above average everywhere, right?

I do really like the chemistry of the first line.
Sorry I must have misinterpreted your outlook on Howe, I do agree with the above. The one thing regarding his point toals is we have to take into consideration that he was known to play a lot of defense as well for his team, this would have had an impact on his totals.



Quote:
I assume you mean "the Prentice hate.". I see him as something of a better version of a Shane Doan/Brendan Morrow type - a bit weaker offensively than I'd prefer from a 2nd liner but capable if need be. Most of those guys you've listed (not Wendel Clarke and probably not Brian Sutter) have more offensive upside than Prentice. That said, he does give you a nice defensive conscience to the line in a way most of those guys you listed don't.

I thought he was a mini-reach when you picked him, but then saw you already had Bathgate and understood where you were coming from. After Bathgate left NY, Toronto tried to acquire Prentice because apparently Bathgate was a hard guy to find linemates for. So it does work for you.
Yes sorry, trying to respond and take calls at the same time. The Prentice hate, I agree that maybe for a traditional ATD 2nd line he would have lower value, but as you mentioned his lengthy real life play with Bathgate was a major reason for drafting him. I'd rather get a lot more out of Bathgate and a little less offense from an other LW then a little more offense from an other LW and who knows what out of Bathgate.





Quote:
Gardiner has a great peak - the problem is that it's only a few years long, right?
Can you repost the quote from 1924?

Here it is:

****New Article found for Herb Gardiner from 1924:

Quote:
He is generally regarded as the finest defence player in hockey today, and as a leader of the Bengals Herb has enjoyed widespread popularity for clean play and game fighting when hard pressed. He is a hard check, clever stick handler and packs the wickest shot on the club….He won the Gordon efficiency medal one year, as the most valuable man in the league

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...gardiner&hl=en


Also from 1921-26 we see he "sparkled"

Quote:
Born May 10, 1891, in Winnipeg, Gardiner turned pro in 1918 with the Calgary Wanderers. From 1921-26, he sparkled with the Calgary Tigers of the Western Canada Hockey League, paired on the blue line with future Hall of Famer, NHL president and Stanley Cup trustee Mervyn (Red) Dutton.
http://www.faceoff.com/hockey/teams/...s%2Fstory.html


Last edited by markrander87: 03-20-2012 at 02:19 PM.
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03-20-2012, 02:16 PM
  #140
seventieslord
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I wouldn't say it's true that Syd Howe had "three great seasons and nothing really close".

Offensively, his range of percentages looks like any player, with a peak, some lesser seasons, and some even lesser seasons. there doesn't appear to be any real cliff here:

1935: 100
1941: 100
1940: 86
1939: 82
1943: 76
1936: 75
1942: 65
1944: 61
1937: 60
1945: 59
1933: 55
1938: 54

note that only one of those three highest seasons was even one of the years he received Hart recognition (1941) - the others are 1943 and 1945

*quick note - the numbers for 1944 and 1945 are adjusted downward to reflect the weaker WW2. It's based on the premise, "If Herb Cain could score 83 that year, what would the actual 2nd-best player score if he was there?" - I think that it works quite well for Howe, because on the surface (hockey card stats) these were great years but put in better context they come out as his 8th and 10th most impressive seasons offensively, which makes sense seeing as his career was about to wind down.

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03-20-2012, 02:36 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I wouldn't say it's true that Syd Howe had "three great seasons and nothing really close".

Offensively, his range of percentages looks like any player, with a peak, some lesser seasons, and some even lesser seasons. there doesn't appear to be any real cliff here:

1935: 100
1941: 100
1940: 86
1939: 82
1943: 76
1936: 75
1942: 65
1944: 61
1937: 60
1945: 59
1933: 55
1938: 54

note that only one of those three highest seasons was even one of the years he received Hart recognition (1941) - the others are 1943 and 1945

*quick note - the numbers for 1944 and 1945 are adjusted downward to reflect the weaker WW2. It's based on the premise, "If Herb Cain could score 83 that year, what would the actual 2nd-best player score if he was there?" - I think that it works quite well for Howe, because on the surface (hockey card stats) these were great years but put in better context they come out as his 8th and 10th most impressive seasons offensively, which makes sense seeing as his career was about to wind down.
Yeah, I guess so. His hart voting in those three seasons is so out of whack with the rest of his career though.

What standard are you using for 44 and 45 if not straight up #2?

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03-20-2012, 02:38 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Thanks for the info, this puts his defensive and fighting abilities in a very different light. Brings much more intangibles than it would seem at a glance. Still a bit of reach on top line, but yeah he can fill a Gillies-like role for sure.
No worries man, we're all learning here. Thanks for the review!

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03-20-2012, 02:58 PM
  #143
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Also isn't Richard that safety valve on that top line? I see Roberts doing the heavy-lifting in the corners even if Richard can keep up in that area. I saw his great two-way game as a good guy to play with Orr. Hedberg seemed decent defensively again from the little I gathered, but that's nothing too special.
That's true. Henri is definitely a legit safety valve on your top line. Nevertheless, if one if going to go with a low-end third player to complete a scoringline (which many GMs have done in this draft), I think it would have been better to get a more defensive-minded guy to free Henri up a bit more offensively. But yes, Richard's strong two-way play is certainly a benefit to you on that top unit.

I am aware of the fact that Hedberg was a reliable up-and-down checking winger. Pat Burns likely would have killed him if he didn't at least put forth a good effort, but I still don't think that he's anything above average in that department for an ATD scoringline. Not a ghost, though, you are correct about that, IMO.

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03-20-2012, 03:10 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I'm surprised with all of the comments referring to my team as "not that defensive" With forwards like: Mikita, Bathgate, Howe, McDonald, MacLeish, Poulin and Pulford on my top 9 and with my top 3 being MacInnis, Laperierre and Gardiner I have above average team defense and I have nobody on my top 9 who is known for being a negative defensively.
None of the bolded guys have a reputation as good checkers. Can we please stop calling Andy Bathgate and Rick MacLeish good checkers here?

Quote:
The Bathgate hate is a little surprising, what makes 2nd line Glue guys like: Bruce Stuart, Bun cook, Brian Sutter, Wendall Clarke, Baldy Northcott (and Harry Watson), Patrick Elias, Clark Gillies etc... better options? Prentice bring a great mix of physical and defensive play and can also put the puck in the net. His longevity is also a plus.
Who is hating on Andy Bathgate? Of the second line "glue guys" you mention, Elias and Northcott stand out as conspicuously better offensive players than Prentice. The others...yeah, well, you're comparing him to some of the lower-end 2nd liners in the ATD.

Quote:
I quoted raptor and gave new info on Gardiner from 1924 ssaying he was known as the top defenseman in the land. How many numbers 3's have ever been the top defenseman? Then we factor in his Hart year and the year after.
I believe that quote said that Gardiner was the best defenseman for one season in the WHL during the three league period. That does not make him the best defenseman in the world during that season with anything resembling certainty. In fact, he most likely was not.

edit: now that you have reposted it, I see that it was a quote from Gardiner's hometown paper, which must be taken with an obvious grain of salt.


Last edited by Sturminator: 03-20-2012 at 03:15 PM.
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03-20-2012, 03:21 PM
  #145
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Winnipeg Falcons

Coach: Rudy Pilous

Robitaille - Delvecchio - Alfredsson
Shanahan - Datsyuk - Oatman
Sharp - Lepine - Graham
Sid Smith - Steen - Paiement
Tardif - Sheppard

Stevens - McCrimmon
Steve Smith - Lennart Svedberg
Magnuson - Svehla
Kjell Samuelsson - Chiasson

Terry Sawchuk
Kiprusoff

PP1:
Robitaille - Delvecchio - Alfredsson
Datsyuk - Svedberg

PP2:
Shanahan - Lepine - Oatman
Stevens - Svehla

PK1:
Lepine - Graham
Syevens - McCrimmon

PK2:
Steen - Alfredsson
Smith - Svehla

PK3:
Datsyuk - Delvecchio
McCrimmon - Svedberg
I'm planning on doing two reviews a day if I have time - one for my division, one for another division. *

Here goes my division

Coaching and leadership

Pilous is a worthy ATD coach but definitely lower tier. *I remember he liked to distribute ice time fairly evenly (one reason Bobby Hull and Stan Mikita hated him), but it's a good for for your team. *You will be at a coaching disadvantage the majority of the time, though.

You didn't lost your leaders, but looking at your roster, Scott Stevens is one of the best leaders ever. *Allow me to go all-homer for a moment - look at the success the Devils had while Stevens was captain. *Now look at how unimpressive their roster was on paper compared to the Red Wings and Avs. *3 Cups with 3 different head coaches. *The biggest constant was Stevens - he sacrificed personal glory for the team concept and demanded his teammates followed. *If they didn't, he threatened them with physical violence and then they usually did. *

Delvicchio could easily be an A on another team, but here, he's probably an A. *Graham makes an excellent third A, but Alfredsson and Shanahan could as well. *No absence of leadership on this team.

Forwards

First line is a mixed bag. *I don't see a real offensive catalyst, perhaps to be expected when your first three picks are a goalie, a defenseman, and a two-way forward (Delvecchio).

On the other hand, this line should be very effective at both ends with Delvecchio and Alfredsson noted two-way players. *Robitaille is fine as the guy who goes to the net - kind of like Heatley on the pizza line but with better hands and slower. *The line can win pucks by committee, but might get pushed around by more physical defenses.

Datsyuk is a great two-way center for a second line and Shanahan is great power winger. *Oatman is okay here; I'd prefer a better goal scorer next to Pavel. *Like the first line, this one is solid defensively because of Datsyuk and fairly meh on offense. *Shanahan's physical presence is definitely a nice touch.

I can't believe how high you drafted Lepine - he was supposed to fall to me! *But he probably deserves it. *Definitely a very good third line center and his hook check will be useful if you face Bobby Orr in the playoffs. *Graham is a hard hitting checker who can chip in points. *In my opinion, Sharp is something of a weak link here; just a short career mostly at center and a short peak.

Physical two-way 4th line. *Sid Smith seems kind of wasted on a 4th line but I don't know where else he could go. *Steen is a hard worker who is decent at both ends and Paiement is a very physical player who is decent at both ends. *Should be an effective line. *

Overall, a very solid group of two-way forwards. *They lack something of a game breaking offensive presence, however. *And the first line could use a little more physicality*

Defense: *

Stevens is a solid #1 but I'm not sure about how you're using him. *In the second half of his career, he didn't lose his ability to handle the puck. *Instead, the Devila figured out that the best way to use him was to let his partner do the puck moving and have Stevens sit farther back, patrolling the back end, where he could use his physical prowess and skating ability to just dominate defensively. *I'm a bigger fan of Mccrimmon than Sturm is - I think he'd be a really solid defensive-minded #3. *But here you seem to have him miscast as your #2. *McCrimmon is great at complimenting a more mobile partner, but isn't much of a puck mover. *I think his presence next to Stevens forces Stevens to be the puck mover of the first pair, something he is capable of. *But you are definitely getting first half of his career Stevens, I would think. *

Svedberg is a good second pairing puck mover who was apparently better than any Soviet defenseman at the World Championships for three years in a row. *Yet at the same time, he didn't win any domestic MVPs while fellow countryman Sjoberg did. *Makes it hard for me to place him exactly, but I do think his offense is established enough to be a good second pairing puck mover. *Given Svedberg's likely defensive deficiencies, I think you would have been better served getting a better #4 than Steve Smith, who seems better suited to a bottom pairing to me.

Bottom pairing is solid, though I'm not sure about Chiasson as an ATD starter.

Overall, I think your defense is hurt by lack of a legit #2 defenseman and lack of a legit #4. * On the other hand, your defense will be getting a lot of help from all your two way forwards. * On the other hand, other than Svedberg and occasionally Stevens, your D won't help out that much offensively.

Goaltending*

Sawchuk is one of the few goalies in the ATD who can win series in his own. *Traditionalists usually rate him the best goalie ever to come along before Patrick Roy; this forum prefers Plante, but I can understand both sides. *Sawchuk's 5 year peak was truly outstanding. *

Kipper is a good backup with experience as a bench warmer in San Jose. *He'll be fine

Special teams*

Lack of offensive game breakers hurst your PP a bit, though Robitaille is an excellent net presence. *I agree with overpass - swap Datsyuk and Delvecchio. *A Delvecchio-Svedberg pairing would be excellent on the points.

Other than Shanahan, the second PP is weak. *Stevens is okay on the second unit, Svehla below average. *You absolutely need to get Lepine off the unit - I would bring up Sid Smith (who is way overqualified for 4th line duty anyway) and move Oatman to center. *Steen would also be a better option than Lepine.

First PK is excellent - Stevens is elite, the rest of them are very good (and they are backed up by Sawchuk).

IMO, Delvecchio is a better PKer than Alfredsson or Steen and Datsyuk may be too.

Solid depth PKer, though I don't like Svedberg there.

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03-20-2012, 03:23 PM
  #146
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Who's keeping track of who's been assasinated and who has given reviews?

I'm hoping to get one soon.
I'm on it!

I feel like I have one review in me today, and I choose you, Bertuzzachu.

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03-20-2012, 03:39 PM
  #147
seventieslord
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Yeah, I guess so. His hart voting in those three seasons is so out of whack with the rest of his career though.

What standard are you using for 44 and 45 if not straight up #2?
99 in 1944, and 90 in 1945.

At the time this was done by analyzing what players like Syd Howe, Herb Cain, and Lorne Carr (who kept playing during WW2) tended to score in comparison to guys like Milt Schmidt, Max Bentley and Bryan Hextall (who didn't play due to the war) and then assuming this would have continued in 1944 and 1945, basically assigning "ghost" top-2 scorers so that the out of whack point totals don't translate into system-breaking ghastly percentages.

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03-20-2012, 03:52 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Who's keeping track of who's been assasinated and who has given reviews?

I'm hoping to get one soon.
Billy has been keeping track although I don't think he has already posted the track record.

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03-20-2012, 04:01 PM
  #149
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None of the bolded guys have a reputation as good checkers. Can we please stop calling Andy Bathgate and Rick MacLeish good checkers here?



Who is hating on Andy Bathgate? Of the second line "glue guys" you mention, Elias and Northcott stand out as conspicuously better offensive players than Prentice. The others...yeah, well, you're comparing him to some of the lower-end 2nd liners in the ATD.
I have already responded to this, I meant hate on Prentice, and no Im not listing "low 2nd line ATD" I literally went down the roster thread.



Quote:
I believe that quote said that Gardiner was the best defenseman for one season in the WHL during the three league period. That does not make him the best defenseman in the world during that season with anything resembling certainty. In fact, he most likely was not.

edit: now that you have reposted it, I see that it was a quote from Gardiner's hometown paper, which must be taken with an obvious grain of salt.
So now we discredit articles because of which paper they come from??

Get real, the majority of articles for early era players come from either their hometown or home club paper.

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03-20-2012, 04:03 PM
  #150
markrander87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I wouldn't say it's true that Syd Howe had "three great seasons and nothing really close".

Offensively, his range of percentages looks like any player, with a peak, some lesser seasons, and some even lesser seasons. there doesn't appear to be any real cliff here:

1935: 100
1941: 100
1940: 86
1939: 82
1943: 76
1936: 75
1942: 65
1944: 61
1937: 60
1945: 59
1933: 55
1938: 54

note that only one of those three highest seasons was even one of the years he received Hart recognition (1941) - the others are 1943 and 1945

*quick note - the numbers for 1944 and 1945 are adjusted downward to reflect the weaker WW2. It's based on the premise, "If Herb Cain could score 83 that year, what would the actual 2nd-best player score if he was there?" - I think that it works quite well for Howe, because on the surface (hockey card stats) these were great years but put in better context they come out as his 8th and 10th most impressive seasons offensively, which makes sense seeing as his career was about to wind down.

Wow that is very interesting, why do you think he had such high Hart votes for those seasons?

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