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ATD 2012 Line-up Assassination Thread

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Old
03-20-2012, 05:56 PM
  #176
monster_bertuzzi
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Keep Turnbull then and protect your third pairing (I understand not wanting to drop Turnbull and hurt your powerplay), but for the love of all that is holy, move Adam Foote up to the 2nd pairing. I'm hardly Foote's biggest fan, but Hartsburg - Reinhart is going to get mutilated by some of the second lines in the league.
It's an option. My third pair Turnbull-Hartsburg/Reinhart REALLY would have some issues, though. 70's whipped up some quotes from the 80's about Reinhart being solid in his own end (and he was during his two years with the Canucks, which is really all I know of him). I may go with Langway-Johnson, Hartsburg-Foote, Turnbull-Reinhart.

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03-20-2012, 05:57 PM
  #177
tony d
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Nowadays, Holecek and Dzurilla are from different countries. (Dzurilla is the best Slovak goalie ever.)
Which is what I meant, should have outlined that more clearly when I reviewed that roster.

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03-20-2012, 06:06 PM
  #178
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Have at her guys:

The 2012 Garnish Cougars:

Coach: Glen Sather

Woody Dumart (A)- Mark Messier (C)-Yvan Cournoyer
Vincent Damphousse-Mats Sundin-Steve Larmer
Mike Mcphee-Don Luce-Stan Smyl
Rusty Crawford-Paul Ronty-Frank Glass

Extras: John Ogrodnick, Yuri Lebedev

JC Tremblay (A)-Sylvio Mantha
Sergei Gonchar-Terry Harper
George Mcnamara-Oldrich Malchac

Extras: Dave Babych, Randy Gregg

Glenn Hall
Pekka Lindmark

Special Teams:

PP 1: Vincent Damphousse, Mark Messier, Yvan Cournoyer, Sergei Gonchar, JC Tremblay
PP 2: Rusty Crawford, Mats Sundin, Steve Larmer, Paul Ronty, Oldrich Machac

PK 1: Don Luce, Stan Smyl, Sylvio Mantha, Terry Harper
PK 2: Mike Mcphee, Mark Messier, JC Tremblay, George Mcnamara
I really think you should give Cournoyer the A over Dumart, just because I think the leadership yin and yang of Messier-Cournoyer is perfect. Cournoyer lead by being a friend, making his teammates laugh, bringing them together after the game, keeping the team loose and making the sport fun. Messier, of course is the most famous in your face leader in the sport. So Cournoyer would be the perfect good cop to Messier's bad cop.

I feel like you don't know how good a player you have in Rusty Crawford. He's on the fourth line. (Granted, that's a very good fourth line that can easily play 12-14 minutes.) He's off the PK (I would definitely give him the PK spot over Smyl who is more of an energy checker than a defensive forward.) and I just don't think McPhee is better in any way.

The defence is really well balanced if kind of forgettable.

Special teams are good, not great though.

Sather's a strange coach because it's hard to say how much he helps. But this is a high character, highly motivated and responsible two-way team. So having a hands off coach may be what's best.

Biggest strengths:
-Glenn Hall
-Balanced team, a little bit of everything here

Biggest weakness:
-A lack of eliteness. No skater really pops out as a great defensive or offensive star.

Interesting team because in many way's your greatest strength is a lack of weaknesses and your greatest weakness is a lack of great strengths.

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03-20-2012, 06:09 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Both of them have better peak value than Hatcher though, and it's not really that close.

Does a pairing need more than one crease-clearer?
Offensively maybe, (But they played in the more offensive era and were hardly faces of the era.) but I would say that Hatcher is better defensively at their peak. (And yes, Hatcher played in the more defensive era, but he was one of the faces of the era.) So I'm not sure they have the higher peak at all. And Hatcher murders them in career value.

No, but a team having only two is weak IMO, and IMO, a team should try for four.

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03-20-2012, 06:11 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Thanks for the lengthy review bud. A couple things:

My pairings originally were: 1)Langway-Reinhart 2)Hartsburg-Johnson 3)Turnbull-Foote. I thought these were ok but then EB went and convinced me that Reinhart wasn't top pair material (which I knew, but I was trying to balance a stay at home and puck mover on each pair). I'm not dropping Tortorella as coaching is very important, and I don't really see the need to drop Lumme for a stay at homer when I have probably the best group of 3 in the division with Langway-Johnson-Foote.
Sure, but two of them are on the top unit together, and Foote is wasted on the bottom unit.

My point is that you have 4 guys who play more or less the same role, so Lumme brings nothing new to the table. Injuries are to be considered I suppose, but I think having spares that can actually help your team by providing matchup options is way more important. Afterall, we all assume we're going into the playoffs with our roster healthy, right?

In what conceivable situation could you ever see yourself penciling Jyrki Lumme into the lineup? I can't think of one. He doesn't really do anything that the other 3 guys don't do. So why not bring in a guy who does bring something else to the table? Make that guy your spare, but at least you'll have options going into the playoffs.

Honestly, I think it would serve you well to at least have that option. Even if you don't, I think moving Foote to the second pairing is a must.

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03-20-2012, 06:21 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
With no surprise, the assassination of the Angelholm Rogle. I'm terrible at doing assassination, but I will try my best!
Thanks for the review. Hopefully, you found my review of your team as fair as this one....

Quote:
1st line - Not the strongest offensively, but the unit works well together. Foyston and Forsberg are two third of a great two-way line, while Nolan will dig the corners for that line.
Agreed. This line is probably one of the more mediocre 1st lines.

I built in net and on the blueline first.... then I built some of the 2nd. I'm actually surprised at how good I managed to build this 1st line.

Quote:
2nd line - Stewart and Smith are two third of a very nasty offensive line. I prefer my slow players to be playmakers instead of goalscorers, but that's why Stewart always fell, as he's a legitimate top-100 All-Time player. Another typical ATD scoring line with Smith digging, Harris passing and Stewart scoring. Not much of defnesive abilities though.
Stewart needs guys to get him the puck, and I think he has that here. Considering this is my second unit, I see this group as causing som major problems on the cycle and down low in the other team's end.

I think Harris and Smith are decent defensively, though Nels is pretty much a mess in that regard. Overall, they'll be below average in that regard, but not terrible.

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3rd line - I was about calling your first line the one that would play against the opposition's best, but then I saw this combination. Leswick is a terrific agitator, Peca is undoubtedly a strong defensive centre. I'm not sold at all on Peirson defensive abilites and unsure what he bring to this line.
Agreed.

Peirson is there more for his offensive ability than his defensive ability. I do think he is responsible enough to be the 3rd guy on a checking line.

Quote:
4th line - Another typical scoring line. Kovalchuk ought to be the best offensive 4th liner in this draft.
We drafted a 3rd scoring line because we don't have that game-breaking offensive line, so we felt we needed a little etxtra bite.

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1st pairing - Reuniting a real life pairing with one of the strongest defenceman in the draft. Not much to say. Well above average.
Agreed.

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2nd pairing - Pulford is a fine #3 defenceman, complemented well with another fine #4 defenceman in Teppo Numminen. I like it.
Agreed.

I think the opinion on Pulford with vary. Some will see him as elite #3, and some will see him as a weak #3. Anything higher or lower is probably unfair.

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3rd pairing - A non-descript third pairing. Surprise Kevin Hatcher is not somewhere to be seen on the PP.
Non-descipt, but I think it's pretty good. Hatcher's voting record makes him one of the best #5s I would think. Portland is there to bang bodies and clear the slot. Against teams that are smaller and faster, Redden will probably jump in.

Hatcher is on our 2nd PP unit. We decided to move Kovalchuk up with Lidstrom, which leaves Murphy and Hatcher on the second.

Goaltenders - Martin Brodeur is #6 on my All-Time list, Crozier is a decent backup, but you didn't needed more with a workhorse like Brodeur.

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PP - I think I would prefer Stewart in the slot over Forsberg. Both are excellent at that spot, but I would like my injure-prone forward not taking that much abuse if possible. But at the end, it's nit-picking, that 1st PP is excellent. I still hate seeing Kovalchuk on the point. He's a turnover machine in the NHL, I cannot imagine how much shorthanded breakaways he will create against the very best PK player of All-Time. Switch him with Kevin Hatcher, put Kovalchuk and Foyston on the wing with Smith up front. Or move down Forsberg or Stewart on the 2nd PP and have two lethal PP's.
Stewart is in the slot. I've got mine listed as their position. Forsberg is the center, which makes him the primary puck-support player, so he'll often be down low or on the wall.

Kovalchuk has his warts, but he might just be the best one-timer of all time. If he was the primary puck-carrier, like he often is with his NHL team, his turnovers would be a major concern. On this PP, though, Kovalchuk's main job is stand there and one-time pucks for Stewart to screen, tip, and retrieve rebounds. The primary puck-carriers are Lidstrom and Forsberg, so Kovalchuk can just watch.

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PK - I love the first PK, not in love with the 2ndPK, especially the forwards. I don't see Sullivan or Peirson as PK worthy players.
Agreed.

Peirson isn't a great PKer. He's there for his speed and intelligence..... and because I don't have great PK options Sullivan, though, was actually an excellent PKer during his career. I don't see why he can't be a second unit guy here.

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03-20-2012, 06:41 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Goaltending: With Hasek and Rayer, you've got the best starter and the best back-up as far as I'm concerned.

Defence: When you wait to the 3rd round to pick your #1 defenseman, the best you can hope for is a guy like Val Vasiliev. He'll be one of the weaker ones, but he's a servicable #1. With Jan Suchy, it's extremely difficult to get an accurate read on where he stands among his peers. Personally, I think he'll be a weak, but aceptable top pairing defenseman. Vasiliev holds down the defensive end, and Suchy can fly up ice.

With Moose Vasko, I think you have a pretty solid #3 guy. He's huge, can skate, and makes a decent first pass. I'm very high on Frank Patrick. I think he was a better player than Lester, so you'e got an eite #4 in my mind. This looks like a pretty physical pair that can skate.

Overall, your blueline is pretty unspectacularly solid. The lack of a stud is really going to hurt your PP.

Forwards: I really look forward to some Sid Crosby match-ups. He's got a tremendous offesive peak, but no longevity, so we'll see. As for his overall game, I see him as a very good puck-winner, and a decent defensive player. Frank Mahovlich and Didier Pitre are good goalscoring wingers - Mahovlich is elite and Petire is decent for the 1st line - but they don't bring much else. I'd be worried that Crosby is the toughest guy and the primary puck-winner, but this should be a pretty good offensive unit.

I'm also looking forward to some Milan Novy comparisons. I think he's close offensively to Vlad Petrov. Odie Cleghorn is one of my favourite "glue" wingers - he's a beast. Paul Thompson is a well-rounded player, and I like how he fits in here. Novy might be one of the weaker centers, but overall I like this unit.

Ralph Backstrom is a real nice 2-way center here. I'm not really sure about how well he'd do in a shut-down role, but he'll play good minutes and be great on the PK. Nick Metz is an elite checking LW. Floyd Curry was a great bargain pick where you got him. He's good defensively and raises his game in the play-offs. While all the players are great individually, I'm not convinced of the chemisrty. Backstrom is a great counter-attack threat, but the other two don't help at all. Maybe a flip of Curry and Alf Skinner would help there. Personally, I think Skinner is much better than Curry anyway.

Coaching: Jacques Lemaire is a solid coach who needs a specific kind of team to succeed, and I think you team is pretty close to perfect for his style. I think he will have your roster playing better than the sum of the parts.

Powerplay: Basically, without a true quarterback, your PP is going to struggle. The forwards are solid, but the puck movement from the blueline is lacking. I would consider using Pitre on the point - he has a great shot and was a rushing defenseman for a coupler seasons.

Penalty Kill: Your PK players are excellent - maybe the best in the draft? Then you add in Lemaire as coach..... then you add Hasek inn net. I think we're looking at the league leading PK here.

(I like how you put "Hasek" in your PK units )
Thanks for the review! I had no feedback whatsoever since the start of this draft, so I'm very please to finally get some criticism!

- I agree, obviously starting your team with the best goaltender of All-Time will hurt the rest of your squad a little bit ... but again that's why Hasek is there ... to make saves and save my ass!

- I really like my first pairing and the compliment each other very well. As soon as I took Hasek at #14, I knew I wanted Vasiliev in the third round. I have him in the mid 20"s All-Time while Suchy is around the 50 marks for me. I agree it's an acceptable, but non-spectacular first pairing. I'm happy with it.

- Vasko skillset is what I really love about him and why I took him at #206. And wow, Frank over Lester? It's either you have Lester lower than most or you think my #2 defenceman is Frank Patrick! I really thought I had a great steal in Frank Patrick in the early 300's, but I cannot make that statement. I view my Top-4 as a lower#1, lower#2, a great #3 and a fine #3. They all mesh well together and goes with the style of play I want to implement, so I'm very happy with it.

- ''Overall, your blueline is pretty unspectacularly solid'' is exactly the way I see it. I built my defence around Dominik Hasek, not the other way around. Hasek is the All-Star, the other defenceman are there to help him.

- Longevity hurt Sidney Crosby, obviously! With the kind of skillset he has, alongside the performances he put up: a 15-years career would probably mean a top-20 selection. When Stastny got taken, I was looking for the best skillset to complement Frank Mahovlich. I look up at the best 10 centre available, and Crosby easily came ahead of the pack. Crosby probably was not the best centre available, but in mind he was the best centre for Mahovlich. My first line isn't a bruising first line: I don't have a true powerforward, but as I decided to go defence heavy and picked 3 non-forward on my first 5 picks, I decided that I would pick the best offensive weapon available, which I believe I did. But on the contrary, it is not a soft line: all three are strong players that can hold their own physically against any opposition. A tough line? No, but a soft one? Absolutely not. And if anything, Vasiliev is at the backline watching their backs

- Again, when you pick two third liners before picking a second forward on your scoring line, you ought to make smart decision or get lucky. I think I was able to get both lucky and smart! I got lucky by getting Odie Cleghorn where I did. I was smart by knowing that Novy would fall later in the draft, as he usually do. Novy is a spectacular offensive player. It's hard to know where that unit stand among the other teams, but I'm extremely satisfied with it: it could of turned out ugly fast if Cleghorn was taken and Novy + Hlinka taken before the 377th selection!

- Ralph Backstrom is definitely able to play a shutdown role. He did against Phil Esposito with great success for example. I could of gone different route with my 3rd line centre, but with Gretzky in my division, I wanted speed and smart. No one was even a close #2 option than Ralph Backstrom. I actually feel quite lucky to have get him as late as #297. I think I prove well that both Curry and Metz were more than mere defensive wingers, especially in the playoffs, were both combine 8 Top-10 results in both the overall scoring and goalscoring department! I think very few teams can boast such offensive exploit from their 3rd defensive line. If Curry was a bargain pick at 462nd and you think Skinner is much better, you must be very high on Skinner! I believe Skinner is an elite 4th liner, and could very well play on my third line, but I still prefer Curry playing on that third line. It's true that they are similar players, come to think about it.

- That's what I was rooting with Lemaire. I'm terrible in picking coaches, so it was a no brainer when I picked him.

- I actually had Pitre on my first unit on defence when I picked him, but change my mind in the middle of the draft. I believe that my weakest link is my powerplay. What do you think would be a better fit overall?

Mahovlich - Cleghorn - Crosby
Suchy - Pitre

Thompson - Burch - Novy
Bubla - Patrick

Note that Vasiliev was a great two-way player on the international stage, and his scoring in the USSR league was definitely affected by not playing with the great CSKA Moscow team. I thought he was a decent enough option on the 2ndPP, but perhaps someone like Burch in front of the net is a good option too.

- That's what happen when you draft a defensive team with the best goaltender of All-Time. I agree with that assessment!


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Old
03-20-2012, 06:44 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Sure, but two of them are on the top unit together, and Foote is wasted on the bottom unit.

My point is that you have 4 guys who play more or less the same role, so Lumme brings nothing new to the table. Injuries are to be considered I suppose, but I think having spares that can actually help your team by providing matchup options is way more important. Afterall, we all assume we're going into the playoffs with our roster healthy, right?

In what conceivable situation could you ever see yourself penciling Jyrki Lumme into the lineup? I can't think of one. He doesn't really do anything that the other 3 guys don't do. So why not bring in a guy who does bring something else to the table? Make that guy your spare, but at least you'll have options going into the playoffs.

Honestly, I think it would serve you well to at least have that option. Even if you don't, I think moving Foote to the second pairing is a must.
Foote has been moved to the second pair, I cracked...lol.

As for Lumme? Well if any of Hartsburg/Reinhart/Turnbull goes down, Jyrki is basically a clone of all of them and I barely miss a beat. If Langway or Johnson goes down, I'm f'd anyways - I've got the goaltending and defensive consience at forward that I'm not worried about having a stay at home specialist as a spare, TBH.

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03-20-2012, 06:47 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Kovalchuk has his warts, but he might just be the best one-timer of all time. If he was the primary puck-carrier, like he often is with his NHL team, his turnovers would be a major concern. On this PP, though, Kovalchuk's main job is stand there and one-time pucks for Stewart to screen, tip, and retrieve rebounds. The primary puck-carriers are Lidstrom and Forsberg, so Kovalchuk can just watch.

Peirson isn't a great PKer. He's there for his speed and intelligence..... and because I don't have great PK options Sullivan, though, was actually an excellent PKer during his career. I don't see why he can't be a second unit guy here.

- I Understand your strategy on paper, but it's not like Kovalchuk can just stand around and will never receive any passes, unless he goes for the one-timer. Kovalchuk will indeed receive passes numerous time during the powerplay, and will have to make decision with it. He's easily, and by far, the worst ''defensive'' pointman of the draft. Let him do his one timers from the board.

- Something I didn't knew about Sullivan. I didn't read that in your bio.

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03-20-2012, 07:01 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
Wish I had some time to do my own bios but barely had time to research this draft. I'll link up whatever old bios I can find when my internet is working better.

Defiitely open to suggestions as far as shuffling lines goes. I'm not really sure who to use as my 4th PK defensman, or whether or not I should move Babe Siebert up on PP 2 either.

Halifax Mooseheads


GMs: Stoneberg & raleh
Coaches: Anatoli Tarasov & Arkady Chernyshev
Captian: Siebert
Alternate Captains: Lowe, McKenney, Arbour


Roster
Valeri Kharlamov - Cyclone Taylor - Ken Hodge
Bun Cook - Mickey MacKay - Cecil Dillon
Don Marshall - Don McKenney (A) - Jerry Toppazzini
Camille Henry - Cal Gardner - Pit Martin

Mark Howe - Babe Siebert (C)
Kevin Lowe (A) - Ken Reardon
Al Arbour (A) - James Patrick

Ed Giacomin
John Vanbiesbrouck

Spares:
Lubomir Visnovsky, D
Jack Marks, F/D
Fred Whitcroft, F

1st PP Unit
Kharlamov - Henry - Hodge
Howe - Taylor

2nd PP Unit
Cook - MacKay - Dillon
Siebert - Reardon

-Taylor and Howe will play the majority of PP time.

PK Forwards
McKenney - Marshall
MacKay - Toppazzini
Martin (maybe Gardner or Dillon in a pinch?)

PK Defensemen
Lowe - Siebert
Arbour - Reardon/Howe

Minute distribution - TBD
I think I have your team and then TDMM left. Here goes:

Coaching: Big fan of Tarasov and the way he was able to turn those Soviet teams into machines on ice for him. No idea about Cherneshev, and there is probably a language barrier in the dressing room at times, hah, but I like your coaching.

Line one: Kharlamov-Cyclone connection, damn. You won't find anyone who was such pure skill like Kharlamov, other than Mario and Wayne. Big fan of his, and Cyclone Taylor is the ying to his playmaking yang. Hodge is probably out of his element on the first line, but not many teams have superstars at all three positions.

Line two: Old school players, I couldn't give you a true assesment to be honest. Bun Cook was definitely the third best player on his line when he played, behind Bill Cook and Frank Boucher. Mickey Mackay seemed like a goalscoring C, this line may have chemistry issues. Nothing eye opening, but nothing that says ''there's a weakness..''.

Line three: Uniting Mckenney and Toppazzini was a stroke of genius. Marshall works as a tenacious LW who can chip in a little offence. Good third line.

Line four: I like Camille Henry. Not sure about the other two but your team is clearly a top 9 oriented team.

Defence:

A nice top four, but I don't view Mark Howe as a #1 at this level TBH. I'm also not a big fan of Kevin Lowe. Arbour is a spare at best, but Patrick is a very good #5. Not a bad group, but not exactly a strong point.

Goaltending:

You're not going to get a guy who used his second pick on a goalie to tell you that Giacomin won't lose you games. He is a bottom 5 starter unfortunately, and just like in the NHL where guys like James Reimer and Steve Mason can blow a lot of games, this could be a problem for you.

Overall:

A very talented forward group at the front with some nice depth in the top 9, but an average defence and poor goaltending could sway some voters.

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03-20-2012, 07:07 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
First line is strong. Clearly will always be above average with Howe there. The guy can do it all. I like putting Kariya specifically with him. Really helps him with Howe being able to clear a lot of space on the ice for him. Nieuwendyk is a weak offensive first liner, but he fits well. This is defintiely a strong first line.
Nieuwendyk is admittedly not a great 1st liner, but I drafted him more for fit and style than anything. He and Howe on the cycle with him in front of the net should be very effective.

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Second line is great too. Dickie Moore is a first liner playing on the second line so this line automatically has an advantage there. Primeau is a very good second line center, and Dye is a good sniper. I'm not the biggest Dye fan and I think you could have helped him a little more here by complimenting him with size as opposed to Dickie Moore's aggressiveness, but it's still a strong second line as well.
Dye is a bit small, but I'm not sure he really needs a big guy to guard him. Some of the quotes LF found that he was a bit physical himself. Most likely won't be sold on him being anything but a sniper, but I'm okay with that because Primeau and Moore were two of the best two-way players of their time.

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Fourth line is another physical line with Linden and Fleming. Wharram is another guy in the Lynn Patrick mold that belongs in the top 9 but just got unfairly shoved down the line this time. The line works as an energy line. If you're planning on playing this line against the great RWs in this division, well good luck because I'm not sure how effective you'll really be, but if you use it as an energy line it'll work really well.
I don't see why this line couldn't go up against the RWs in our division. Fleming was a noted penalty killer, shadow, and checker. He was the guy assigned to Hull, Mahovlich, Howe, and Bathgate whenever he faced a team with those guys on it. He's small, but he's a pest that will fight. If we need somebody bigger to fight for him, Graves has that covered. Linden brings great size, and since I have him at center he'll be more of a two-way penalty killer than the crash and bang power forward he was when he played at RW.
Quote:
Forwards overall: This is among the best group of forwards in the draft in my opinion. It's got a little bit of everything as far as offense will go. Probably among the most physical as well. Also just a note, I would never scratch Wharram from your 4th line. In my opinion he's your 9th best forward (better than Graves, Fleming, Linden) . Even though you're strong at RW, I'd keep him there at all times, and scratch Linden in favor of Thoms.
In a vacuum, Wharram is much better than his 4th line position indicates and is better than the guys you mentioned. So is Neal Broten. But, those guys are there in the bottom 6 for a reason.

Quote:
Top 4 defense: Overall it's probably a lower half group because of a lack of top end talent, but it's not a bad group either. Salming is probably in the 20-25 range of defensemen (he fits the transition game well though to get the puck to your forwards), Goodfellow will be about an average to slightly above average 2. Goodfellow is a guy who has always kind of intrigued me, as I'm really not sure how he played. He seems like a Shea Weber to me as far as a physical guy with a hard shot, but that's really all I know. Either way you've insulated him with Reise, who will be able to stay at home if Goodfellow strays too far from the nest. Boivin is solid 3/4.
Goodfellow was the 38th defenseman selected, and was ranked 43rd in the HOH Top 60 project. Either metric would put him in the top third of #2 defensemen, unless I selected him way too early, which I certainly don't think I did. Goodfellow was a good skater that was physical, and could put up points considering his previous time as a forward. Here is his AS record up against some other guys taken around his area:

Quote:
Sylvio Mantha (147): 2nd*, 3rd, 4th, 7th
*2nd in Hart voting among dmen in 1929
(Note that we don't have much beyond the top 2-4 Hart getters from 1923-1930).
Ebbie Goodfellow (126): 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th*
Babe Siebert (140): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 6th**
Butch Bouchard (123): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 6th
Ken Reardon (164): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th
Tom Johnson (175): 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 11th
Carl Brewer (137): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 9th***
Larry Murphy (139): 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 11th
Doug Wilson (150): 1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 8th
Rob Blake (129): 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th
Zdeno Chara (90): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th****
Ching Johnson (121): 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th (incomplete data beyond top 4)*
Jacques Laperriere (119): 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th
-From the HOH Top 60 Project. Their draft position is in parentheses.

The entire defense should be absolutely tenacious to play against. All of my defensemen were known for being physical players.

Quote:
Salming playing all three top units will tire him down, and he is an integral part of your defense. It's kind of like the trouble I ran into with Middleton. He's a big special teams player, but he probably shouldn't do it. I'd probably move him down to the second PK unit and move Reise up.
Good call.

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03-20-2012, 07:13 PM
  #187
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For Goodfellow AS record, were all of these results came when he played as a defenceman only?

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03-20-2012, 07:16 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I really think you should give Cournoyer the A over Dumart, just because I think the leadership yin and yang of Messier-Cournoyer is perfect. Cournoyer lead by being a friend, making his teammates laugh, bringing them together after the game, keeping the team loose and making the sport fun. Messier, of course is the most famous in your face leader in the sport. So Cournoyer would be the perfect good cop to Messier's bad cop.

I feel like you don't know how good a player you have in Rusty Crawford. He's on the fourth line. (Granted, that's a very good fourth line that can easily play 12-14 minutes.) He's off the PK (I would definitely give him the PK spot over Smyl who is more of an energy checker than a defensive forward.) and I just don't think McPhee is better in any way.

The defence is really well balanced if kind of forgettable.

Special teams are good, not great though.

Sather's a strange coach because it's hard to say how much he helps. But this is a high character, highly motivated and responsible two-way team. So having a hands off coach may be what's best.

Biggest strengths:
-Glenn Hall
-Balanced team, a little bit of everything here

Biggest weakness:
-A lack of eliteness. No skater really pops out as a great defensive or offensive star.

Interesting team because in many way's your greatest strength is a lack of weaknesses and your greatest weakness is a lack of great strengths.
Thanks for the review, I will make the switches you indicated. Disagree with the eliteness as Messier's one of the top offensive guys ever and was considered a steal for me at #28. Don Luce was also regarded as a good defensive guy.

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03-20-2012, 07:20 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
For Goodfellow AS record, were all of these results came when he played as a defenceman only?
Correct. He also had a 1st and 3rd in Hart voting as a defenseman. He did finish 3rd and 4th as an all star at center before converting to a defenseman.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...73&postcount=5

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03-20-2012, 07:27 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
For Goodfellow AS record, were all of these results came when he played as a defenceman only?
If he's ripping it directly from the HOH project, yes they are. I listed his record as a center separately as a footnote. I was surprised by how good his AS record at D is.

I think Goodfellow is well above average as a #2

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03-20-2012, 08:10 PM
  #191
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Thanks for the review, I will make the switches you indicated. Disagree with the eliteness as Messier's one of the top offensive guys ever and was considered a steal for me at #28. Don Luce was also regarded as a good defensive guy.
Luce is a very good player, seems almost like a player that embodies your team, he's good in many facets of the game.

IMO Messier, while great, is a below average best offensive player on a team in an ATD format.

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03-20-2012, 08:13 PM
  #192
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Thanks for the review, I will make the switches you indicated. Disagree with the eliteness as Messier's one of the top offensive guys ever and was considered a steal for me at #28. Don Luce was also regarded as a good defensive guy.
Longevity wise Messier is one of the best ever, but on a game-to-game basis? He's not.

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03-20-2012, 08:14 PM
  #193
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Longevity wise Messier is one of the best ever, but on a game-to-game basis? He's not.
That's true, I probably don't give him enough credit for longevity.

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03-20-2012, 08:28 PM
  #194
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[QUOTE=BillyShoe1721;46421887]Nieuwendyk is admittedly not a great 1st liner, but I drafted him more for fit and style than anything. He and Howe on the cycle with him in front of the net should be very effective.

Yep.

Quote:
Dye is a bit small, but I'm not sure he really needs a big guy to guard him. Some of the quotes LF found that he was a bit physical himself. Most likely won't be sold on him being anything but a sniper, but I'm okay with that because Primeau and Moore were two of the best two-way players of their time.
Dye I remember reading some things on how Walker and Foyston used to play him a little physical and frustrate him and be able to take him out of the game. According to your bio he was a bit more physical than I was giving him credit for. I think he's fine now.

Quote:
I don't see why this line couldn't go up against the RWs in our division. Fleming was a noted penalty killer, shadow, and checker. He was the guy assigned to Hull, Mahovlich, Howe, and Bathgate whenever he faced a team with those guys on it. He's small, but he's a pest that will fight. If we need somebody bigger to fight for him, Graves has that covered. Linden brings great size, and since I have him at center he'll be more of a two-way penalty killer than the crash and bang power forward he was when he played at RW.
I wouldn't want Fleming going up against the bigger wingers like Jagr. He's defintiely good defensively and a good PKer, but he's not like Selke level good. His real value lies in his physicality. You should be playing Moore and Graves against those guys. I'm sure you aren't planning on using this line as a defensive line.

Quote:
In a vacuum, Wharram is much better than his 4th line position indicates and is better than the guys you mentioned. So is Neal Broten. But, those guys are there in the bottom 6 for a reason.
Understood there. I'd always keep him in the lineup, but you have a point.

Quote:
Goodfellow was the 38th defenseman selected, and was ranked 43rd in the HOH Top 60 project. Either metric would put him in the top third of #2 defensemen, unless I selected him way too early, which I certainly don't think I did. Goodfellow was a good skater that was physical, and could put up points considering his previous time as a forward. Here is his AS record up against some other guys taken around his area:



-From the HOH Top 60 Project. Their draft position is in parentheses.
Yeah Goodfellow is defitniely above average as a 2. I wouldn't have taken him at 38, but 43 is certainly more in his level. I see him more in that tier. Which would be above average. I don't see him as WELL above average like TDMM does.

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The entire defense should be absolutely tenacious to play against. All of my defensemen were known for being physical players.



Good call.
Yeah defense is certainly physical.

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03-20-2012, 09:08 PM
  #195
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Re some earlier points:

1) Mark Messier is somewhat underrated if you look at his end of the season finishes. He often missed 5-10 games per season in his prime due to minor injuries and suspensions caused by his kamikaze style of play. His "per game" numbers are a bit better. Also, playoffs

2) Starshinov's playmaking is best described as "nonexistent," as is his ability to carry the puck. His offensive game only has one aspect - standing in front of the goal and scoring from in close. I wouldn't call him totally one-dimensional because he is loaded with grit and leadership. But his offensive game is very one dimensional. If guys like Russell Bowie and Marty Barry get the tag "shouldn't be the primary playmaker of a scoring line, but can pass well enough to get the puck to teammates," I'd question Starshinov's ability to do it at all. IMO, my team's biggest weakness last year was its 2nd line. Not that Starsh was bad - he's a good enough goal scorer to be a good second liner in a 32 team draft. , let alone a 40 team one. But his skillset is so unique and hard to build around, I had to get a pretty poor set of wingers for him for chemistry reasons.

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03-20-2012, 09:11 PM
  #196
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2) Starshinov's playmaking is best described as "nonexistent," as is his ability to carry the puck. His offensive game only has one aspect - standing in front of the goal and scoring from in close. I wouldn't call him totally one-dimensional because he is loaded with grit and leadership. But his offensive game is very one dimensional. If guys like Russell Bowie and Marty Barry get the tag "shouldn't be the primary playmaker of a scoring line, but can pass well enough to get the puck to teammates," I'd question Starshinov's ability to do it at all. IMO, my team's biggest weakness last year was its 2nd line. Not that Starsh was bad - he's a good enough goal scorer to be a good second liner in a 32 team draft. , let alone a 40 team one. But his skillset is so unique and hard to build around, I had to get a pretty poor set of wingers for him for chemistry reasons.
Yeah, I knew Starshi was a goal scorer with tunnel vision. I've got a wonderful playmaking RW in Rousseau, so it's all good for my 3rd line.

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03-20-2012, 09:27 PM
  #197
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Coach: Barry Trotz
Assistant coach: Larry Robinson

Frank Foyston - Peter Forsberg - Owen Nolan
Smokey Harris - Nels Stewart - Alf Smith
Tony Leswick - Mike Peca - Johnny Peirson
Ilya Kovalchuk - Red Sullivan - Bill Goldworthy
Garry Unger - Andre Boudrias

Nicklas Lidström - Larry Murphy
Harvey Pulford - Teppo Numminen
Kevin Hatcher - Jack Portland
Wade Redden

Martin Brodeur
Roger Crozier

PP1:
Nels Stewart - Peter Forsberg - Alf Smith
Ilya Kovalchuk - Nicklas Lidstrom

PP2:
Smokey Harris - Frank Foyston - Owen Nolan
Kevin Hatcher - Larry Murphy

Pk1:
Michael Peca - Tony Leswick
Harvey Pulford - Nicklas Lidstrom

PK2:
Red Sullivan - Johnny Peirson
Jack Portland - Teppo Numminen
I'm just doing forwards as a whole because I think this makes more sense:

I'd make a line: Kovalchuk-Stewart-Foyston as your first line and Harris-Forsberg-Smith your second line. Kovalchuk can carry the puck for the first line, Stewart stays in the slot and does some dirty work, and Foyston is the all-purpose guy, especially defensively, that those two need on their line. Harris-Forsberg-SMith would then become the fear of every single ****ing team in the ATD because that line is fearsome, tenacious, physical, and can score goals with any other second line.

Bottom six, I'd keep that third line together, and move Boudrias into the lineup at LW, keep Sullivan at center, and put Nolan on the 4th line RW.

Defense Top 4: Awesome first pairing. Defintie chemistry there obviously. It works. Pulford is a good #3, and Numminen is an okay 4 who fits with just about everyone with his all around solid game.

Bottom pair: Hatcher and Portland are good as a 5/6 pair. Classic offense/defense. Redden is an amazing 7 in my opinion.

Goaltending is obviously good: Brodeur is somewhere in that top 8 goalies of all time. Crozier a good backup.

Coaching: I think coaching is the weakness of this team. We've gone through this every possible which way. You're not going to convince people that believe Trotz just hasn't been successful enough in the playoffs to warrant a selection here. I think he's very similar to my assistant coach, Eddie Gerard: performed solidly with a lack of talent. I don't think Robinson provides enough to overcome this.

Overall: If you keep your team the way you have it forwards-wise I think you're wasting Kovalchuk, who is one of your most lethal goalscorers. I'm not a fan of your forwards as presently constructed, because Nolan is a weak top 6er, let alone top liner. I like your talent, just not exactly the way it fits chemistry wise. Defense is solid, and goaltending is strong though.

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03-20-2012, 09:41 PM
  #198
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
2) Starshinov's playmaking is best described as "nonexistent," as is his ability to carry the puck. His offensive game only has one aspect - standing in front of the goal and scoring from in close. I wouldn't call him totally one-dimensional because he is loaded with grit and leadership. But his offensive game is very one dimensional. If guys like Russell Bowie and Marty Barry get the tag "shouldn't be the primary playmaker of a scoring line, but can pass well enough to get the puck to teammates," I'd question Starshinov's ability to do it at all. IMO, my team's biggest weakness last year was its 2nd line. Not that Starsh was bad - he's a good enough goal scorer to be a good second liner in a 32 team draft. , let alone a 40 team one. But his skillset is so unique and hard to build around, I had to get a pretty poor set of wingers for him for chemistry reasons.
Bowie was second in his era for assists, it's BS to act like he's a puckhog.

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03-20-2012, 09:55 PM
  #199
Hawkey Town 18
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Chicago Shamrocks


Head Coach: Tommy Ivan
Goaltending Coach: Warren Strelow
Captain: Bill Cook
Alternate Captains: Reg Noble, Art Ross, Ching Johnson


Reg Noble - Howie Morenz - Vladimir Martinec
George Hay - Frank Fredrickson - Bill Cook
Marty Pavelich - Ken Mosdell - John "Pie" McKenzie
Tommy Smith - Doug Weight - Bruce MacGregor


Bill Quackenbush
- Ching Johnson
Art Ross - Bob Goldham
Brian Engblom - Ted Green


Tom Barrasso
Mike Liut


Spares: Metro Prystai (LW/C/RW), Mathieu Schneider (D), Joe Watson (D)


PP1
Vladimir Martinec - Howie Morenz - Bill Cook
Bill Quackenbush - Art Ross

PP2
Tommy Smith - Frank Fredrickson - George Hay
Ted Green - Doug Weight


PK1
Marty Pavelich - Ken Mosdell
Ching Johnson - Bob Goldham

PK2
Reg Noble - Bruce MacGregor
Brian Engblom - Ted Green

Extra PK F: Howie Morenz
Extra PK D: Bill Quackenbush


Estimated Regular Season Minutes
FORWARDS
Player ES PP PK Total
Noble 15.5 0 2.5 18
Morenz 15.5 4 1 20.5
Martinec 15 4 0 19
Hay 13.5 3 0 16.5
Frederickson 13.5 3 0 16.5
Cook 16 4 0 20
Pavelich 11 0 4 15
Mosdell 11 0 3.5 14.5
McKenzie 10 0 0 10
Smith 6 3 0 9
Weight 6 3 0 9
MacGregor 5 0 3 8
TOTAL 138 24 14 176
*Bill Cook will take occassional shifts on the 3rd and 4th lines and if the opportunity presents will play on the 1st line at the end of games/periods

DEFENSEMEN
Player ES PP PK Total
Quackenbush 19.5 4 0 23.5
Johnson 19.5 0 4 23.5
Ross 16 4 0 20
Goldham 14.5 0 4 18.5
Green 12 3 3 18
Engblom 10.5 0 3 13.5
TOTAL 92 11 14 117
*Ted Green will take occassional shifts with Art Ross

Grand TOTAL 230 35 28 293


Last edited by Hawkey Town 18: 03-21-2012 at 08:17 AM.
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03-20-2012, 09:57 PM
  #200
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West Island Lions



GM: Dwight
Coach: Joel Quenneville
Captain: Toe Blake
Alternate Captains: Ed Westfall, Doug Wilson

Brian Propp - Elmer Lach - Vaclav Nedomansky
Toe Blake - Phil Watson - Dave Taylor
J.P. Parise - Bob Bourne - Ed Westfall
Ab McDonald - Steven Stamkos - Bobby Schmautz
Glen Skov - Mickey Redmond

Doug Wilson - Tim Horton
Jean-Guy Talbot - Dave Burrows
Duncan Keith - Phil Russell
Andrei Markov - Roman Hamrlik

Jacques Plante
Olaf Kolzig

PP1: Toe Blake - Elmer Lach - Vaclav Nedomansky - Duncan Keith - Doug Wilson
PP2: Brian Propp - Steven Stamkos - Phil Watson - Jean-Guy Talbot - Tim Horton

PK1: Phil Watson - Ed Westfall - Tim Horton - Dave Burrows
PK2: Bob Bourne - Brian Propp - Jean-Guy Talbot - Phil Russell
I'll take a shot at my mate and my division rival.

First Line: Big fan of this line, I can definitely see it being under-appreciated due to having no real offensive superstar on the line. Elmer Lach is a fantastic two-way centre, I debated picking him when I went for Fedorov. Flanked by a guy who can essentially do it all, Brian Propp and a serious goal scorer in Nedomansky. Both Lach and Propp are strong playmakers which creates a strong offensive line where Nedo serves as the primary goal scorer.

Second Line: A pretty scrappy second line, I'd definitely like to see Blake with Lach, but the fact you split them up and made it work on different lines is impressive. Watson was rugged and a decent playmaker, and Taylor was a gritty, offensive threat. Good offensive line that plays with an edge.

Third Line: Really like this third line, one of the best defensive players of all time, Ed Westfall. The speedy two-way Bob Bourne, and J.P. Parise. Very effective line that will definitely give the opposition's top units a hard time.

Fourth Line: Not a traditional fourth line, but a surefire scoring threat. Stamkos is a great player to have for special teams, and can chip in timely offense in limited minutes. Ab McDonald is the perfect playmaking winger for Stammer and an abrasive defensive player in Schmautz, who provides the intangibles. I really think this line can work.

I like the forwards a lot, I think there is a lot of flow (no pun intended, Stamkos ) and consistency, and I think it's a fairly strong forward corps despite not having an offensive superstar.

First Pairing: Tim Horton is a solid #1 defenseman, and Doug Wilson is a decent #2. Horton is a complete defenseman, Wilson is a defensively effective defenseman with good offense as well, great first pairing.

Second Pairing: Predominantly defensive pairing, one-dimensional defensive defenseman Dave Burrows is very effective, paired with strong two-way pivot, Jean-Guy Talbot. I think this is also a good pairing that will give opposing forwards some headaches.

Third Pairing: I thought Phil Russell was still available at 778, I had to give my head a shake and realize his name was misspelled on the OP. A rough defenseman with adequate offense gives the bottom pairing a very physical asset, and Duncan Keith. A good two-way defenseman who is used to playing next to a predominantly defensive defenseman, so he will get his desired offensive opportunities.

Goaltending: top-5 all time goaltender in Plante, will steal games and be a huge asset in the post-season. Kolzig is a lower tier backup goalie, but he won't see much light with such a stellar starter.

Spares: Skov is a guy I looked at, wields intangibles and is versatile. Mickey Redmond is a good goal scorer, a nice piece to have if Taylor or Nedomansky go down. I like Markov, who can fill in for either an OFD or a DFD, as well as Hamrlik.

Coaching: Quenneville is a lower end coach, I'm not his biggest fan. Although he has a Cup victory and despite looking angry all the time, his players usually seem to be a big fan of his.

Good entry man, I really like the way your team shaped up.

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