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05-07-2012, 11:59 PM
  #1
sobrien
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System Changes Next Season

The amount of defensive-minded teams that made it to the 2nd round has been talked about a lot, but what hasn't been talked about a lot (as far as I can tell) is how this may affect the NHL going further. But the Blues, Devils, and Kings are all still able to bring an exciting style of play every night, and other teams like the Coyotes and Devils don't have especially talented defenses, but seem completely impenetrable right now.

Two part question: Ignoring the "it's a boring style of play" garbage, is it possible to see a large collection of coaches overhaul their team's system next season to be heavily defensive?

What would you think if the Flyers went ahead with this change next season?

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05-08-2012, 12:04 AM
  #2
OriginJM
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Lavi loves the Run N' Gun method, and okay, sometimes that works. The problem is that he runs that method on every single line. If he gave the bottom two lines a more defensive mind set, then we would be far more balanced. There is a reason we have 4 scoring lines fellas, because we're only thinking about one side of the ice.

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05-08-2012, 02:26 AM
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zarley zelepukin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
The amount of defensive-minded teams that made it to the 2nd round has been talked about a lot, but what hasn't been talked about a lot (as far as I can tell) is how this may affect the NHL going further. But the Blues, Devils, and Kings are all still able to bring an exciting style of play every night, and other teams like the Coyotes and Devils don't have especially talented defenses, but seem completely impenetrable right now.

Two part question: Ignoring the "it's a boring style of play" garbage, is it possible to see a large collection of coaches overhaul their team's system next season to be heavily defensive?

What would you think if the Flyers went ahead with this change next season?
For now, it's only 1 season. I don't think it will be heavily imitated until it becomes a trend. All of the Cup winners since the lockout to this point have had top 10 offenses, and I think all but two have had top 10 defenses. Saying teams will need to be offensive or defensive is an oversimplification, because the teams that win it all are usually both. Lavi's been in the finals twice in recent years, so I don't think he should change his system because of this one (successful) season.

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Originally Posted by OriginJM View Post
Lavi loves the Run N' Gun method, and okay, sometimes that works. The problem is that he runs that method on every single line. If he gave the bottom two lines a more defensive mind set, then we would be far more balanced. There is a reason we have 4 scoring lines fellas, because we're only thinking about one side of the ice.
Yup. It worked much better in 2010 when our 4th line was actually a defensively responsible checking line. Luckily those types of players aren't as hard to find as gifted scorers, which we've got. Of course, we also had a few more strong 2-way players than we do now and that's Homer's job to fix.

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05-08-2012, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by OriginJM View Post
Lavi loves the Run N' Gun method, and okay, sometimes that works. The problem is that he runs that method on every single line. If he gave the bottom two lines a more defensive mind set, then we would be far more balanced. There is a reason we have 4 scoring lines fellas, because we're only thinking about one side of the ice.
Yep. That's why I'd like to see at least one true shutdown line that picks up and executes a proven defensive system.

I'm not sure if either Couts or Schenn are really a perfect fit for the shutdown center position because they both have a lot of potential in terms of setting up and scoring goals. Maybe Homer should take the job description and acquire someone who fits this shoe....


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05-08-2012, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dats81 View Post
Yep. That's why I'd like to see at least one true shutdown line that picks up and executes a proven defensive system.

I'm not sure if either Couts or Schenn are really a perfect fit for the shutdown center position because they both have a lot of potential in terms of setting up and scoring goals. Maybe Homer should take the job description and acquire someone who fits this shoe....
The problem with acquiring a true shutdown specialist is that you're looking at big bucks being allocated to one player who might play 12 to 13 minutes a night and contribute around 15 to 20 points per season. If the Flyers want a true shutdown specialist, then they need to start grooming a forward for that role. I still don't know why this franchise will not trust Ben Holmstrom in that role. That would be the answer with regards to looking for a shut down guy.

The other thing is that defense can be taught and right now, it seems, Laviolette has no interest in playing defense. It's all about the system and the system never changes with him, just the players. Now, I'm not saying I hate the system because I love the wide open game. The style that Laviolette wants the team to play harkens back to the late 80s and early 90s when the game had plenty of firepower and was fun to watch. However, I do realize that at playoff time, you have to tighten up a bit and I think the Flyers have actually become even looser as a unit. That falls on the coach. Hopefully this off season, Laviolette will change the game plan a bit and focus a bit on defensive positioning and defensive play a bit more. The year the Flyers went to the Finals with Laviolette, they really played great two way hockey. I'd like to see that come back.

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05-08-2012, 08:06 AM
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Imo, defensive systems are working now because interference is not being called consistently anymore...we're almost back to pre-lockout hockey in regards to this. These defensive systems thrive on it...it's subtle but enough slow down the game/opponent. If this is the direction the league is heading back to, then yes the Flyers will need to switch to a defensive system, they really won't have a choice.

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05-08-2012, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TheIceman26 View Post
Imo, defensive systems are working now because interference is not being called consistently anymore...we're almost back to pre-lockout hockey in regards to this. These defensive systems thrive on it...it's subtle but enough slow down the game/opponent. If this is the direction the league is heading back to, then yes the Flyers will need to switch to a defensive system, they really won't have a choice.
If obstruction and hooking were called on a consistent basis the game would have balance and probably a notch or two more scoring.

I also think goalie pads/equipment might stand to be toned down a notch or two...probably makes a difference for a goal here/there. Some of the goalies look like tanks out there.

League doesn't need to go back to run/gun 80's style hockey and with goalies as athletic as they are it's not likely to occur. That said, consistent officiating and some rule enforcement would go a long way to balancing the scoring out.

My fear is the NHL continues to trend back into dead puck/obstruction city and we're watching a bunch of 2-1 dump/chase festivals. The faster NHL is more exciting...it doesn't need to be 6-5 scores night after night around the league but the speed teams are a lot more fun to watch on the ice than the mucker/grinder teams.

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05-08-2012, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Poodle Lussier View Post
If obstruction and hooking were called on a consistent basis the game would have balance and probably a notch or two more scoring.

I also think goalie pads/equipment might stand to be toned down a notch or two...probably makes a difference for a goal here/there. Some of the goalies look like tanks out there.

League doesn't need to go back to run/gun 80's style hockey and with goalies as athletic as they are it's not likely to occur. That said, consistent officiating and some rule enforcement would go a long way to balancing the scoring out.

My fear is the NHL continues to trend back into dead puck/obstruction city and we're watching a bunch of 2-1 dump/chase festivals. The faster NHL is more exciting...it doesn't need to be 6-5 scores night after night around the league but the speed teams are a lot more fun to watch on the ice than the mucker/grinder teams.
That is my fear...penalties per game are already back to pre-lockout levels...that is concerning. There isn't as much blatant obstruction as there was pre-lockout but they are definitely a far cry away from 2006-2008 where almost every obstruction was called.

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05-08-2012, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
The problem with acquiring a true shutdown specialist is that you're looking at big bucks being allocated to one player who might play 12 to 13 minutes a night and contribute around 15 to 20 points per season. If the Flyers want a true shutdown specialist, then they need to start grooming a forward for that role. I still don't know why this franchise will not trust Ben Holmstrom in that role. That would be the answer with regards to looking for a shut down guy.

The other thing is that defense can be taught and right now, it seems, Laviolette has no interest in playing defense. It's all about the system and the system never changes with him, just the players. Now, I'm not saying I hate the system because I love the wide open game. The style that Laviolette wants the team to play harkens back to the late 80s and early 90s when the game had plenty of firepower and was fun to watch. However, I do realize that at playoff time, you have to tighten up a bit and I think the Flyers have actually become even looser as a unit. That falls on the coach. Hopefully this off season, Laviolette will change the game plan a bit and focus a bit on defensive positioning and defensive play a bit more. The year the Flyers went to the Finals with Laviolette, they really played great two way hockey. I'd like to see that come back.
Game 6 against the Pens seemed like a perfect example of playing Lavy's system, two-ways...when the Flyers forwards backcheck (in the N zone and D zone) with the same ferocity as their forecheck, the team is nearly unbeatable imo...past couple games looks like they've been employing the "nocheck", lol.

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05-08-2012, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by TheIceman26 View Post
That is my fear...penalties per game are already back to pre-lockout levels...that is concerning. There isn't as much blatant obstruction as there was pre-lockout but they are definitely a far cry away from 2006-2008 where almost every obstruction was called.
It's no coincidence that Lavy's teams were most successful then as well, including his cup win in 2005. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the NHL is entering another dead puck era. It's been my single biggest complaint about the postseason this year. Obstruction is back, and the NHL has shown no interest in limiting or penalizing it.

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05-08-2012, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by TheIceman26 View Post
That is my fear...penalties per game are already back to pre-lockout levels...that is concerning. There isn't as much blatant obstruction as there was pre-lockout but they are definitely a far cry away from 2006-2008 where almost every obstruction was called.
Power plays are at a 35 year low. The lack of consistency is the more infuriating aspect of officiating since there are some refs that are still applying the 06-08 standard and will call a lot more ticky-tack stuff...and others who will call some of it but not all of it.

To me, a hook is a hook is a hook...no matter where it occurs or how it happens. It shouldn't be subjective or enforced when a guy is making a hockey play or if he's only in the offensive zone, on a 3-on-2, or any sort of scoring chance. If he's obstructed via a hook or interfered with and the rule says it's supposed to be a penalty, then it needs to be called. If you're going to allow obstruction, come out and say it and allow the guys to muck up the ice...and then the NHL can live with 2-1 hockey again...

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05-08-2012, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by OriginJM View Post
Lavi loves the Run N' Gun method, and okay, sometimes that works. The problem is that he runs that method on every single line. If he gave the bottom two lines a more defensive mind set, then we would be far more balanced. There is a reason we have 4 scoring lines fellas, because we're only thinking about one side of the ice.
Whatever line briere is on is the one to watch out for.

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05-08-2012, 10:19 AM
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I'm ok with his system...and he finally has 4 lines of forwards that can play it. The problem is the D, homer needs to bring in a couple D men better fit to play Lavi's system.

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05-08-2012, 10:31 AM
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The system is fine. The personnel needs upgrading in a number of areas, defensemen being chief among them.

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05-08-2012, 10:47 AM
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The "system" needs tweaking and we def need a healthier D corps and some additions this offseason. Time to reconstitute the D like the O was revamped with the big trades last offseason. Having said this..doesn't really matter what we as the fans think. If the players start not believing in the system then Lavi better adapt and adjust.....

We also need some size down the middle or Couts will need to take weight gainer for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Schenn just needs more seasoning. I like how he takes the body. Briere...well he serves his purpose but obviously his lack of D prowess is sticking out more b/c of the lack of defensive specialists up front and the inexperience of those we do have tabbed for that role. Talbot is just fine but shouldn't have to take on anymore added responsibility than he has.

Finally, I really think Lavi should be pushed to unload Kevin McCarthy...don't care about the package deal and agreement he has with the organization. He's up for a new contract and Flyers should push him to part ways. I think the guy just blows. Mullen and Berube are fine...McCarthy..I'm just not sure how much added value he really provides. Also Reese has to be canned. Management needs some revamping ..shouldn't just be on the players especially after this past offseason and especially since the system is derived from management/coaching.

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05-08-2012, 01:38 PM
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Agreed on the D overhaul. Fine we are a run and gun system, most of us appreciate the up tempo style, all I'm saying is if that's the system we are going to war with, then why do we sign a goaltender who can't play the puck and defenceman that can't skate?

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05-08-2012, 03:52 PM
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Honestly, whatever line Briere is on needs to have 2 really good defensive forwards on it too. I want Briere/Couts to be on the same line next year, just because Briere is so bad in his own zone and Couts is so good. Keep in mind, our 'reliable' forwards are mostly rookies or under 25...

If we're gonna play "run 'n gun" we need reliable defensemen who make good decisions and all the forwards need to backcheck hard every shift.

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05-08-2012, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Teezax View Post
Agreed on the D overhaul. Fine we are a run and gun system, most of us appreciate the up tempo style, all I'm saying is if that's the system we are going to war with, then why do we sign a goaltender who can't play the puck and defenceman that can't skate?
I don't know about a complete overhaul, but definitely need them all healthy. We need another #1/#2 though. Someone like Suter. If we get him signed, just re-sign MAB for a few years and we should be good on the D end, but only if we can stay healthy.

Timonen-Suter
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05-08-2012, 06:06 PM
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Powerplays at 30 year low.

Goals at lowest since pre lockout.

Welcome back to dead puck era people.

Well done NHL. Well done.

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05-08-2012, 06:35 PM
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I don't know about a complete overhaul, but definitely need them all healthy. We need another #1/#2 though. Someone like Suter. If we get him signed, just re-sign MAB for a few years and we should be good on the D end, but only if we can stay healthy.

Timonen-Suter
Coburn-Grossmann
Mez-MAB
Lilja
Agreed about a new 1 or 2. The problem with that though is that once they sign their contract, what will Giroux be worth when it's time to negotiate his contract? That's the problem with a guy like Suter. Someone's going to over pay for him and it's going to be high. I'm sure Holmgren will be interested, but I think the cost in the end will be a detriment. I'm still thinking that the Flyers go the trade route for a defenseman. Right now, the only sure things are Timonen, Coburn, Grossman and Meszaros. The free agency pool for defensemen is rather weak this year and there are numerous teams with a glut of good young defensemen who will be looking to deal (Phoenix is the very first place I can think of). I could see the Flyers making some sort of deal to secure a 1 or 2 that way.

The only other thing I'd like to see is an assistant coach that knows a little bit about defensive formations and helping tighten up the defense a bit. McCarthy has done a good job working one on one with the defenders, but collectively, he's done a poor job overall on the d. That needs to be corrected. Just a thought, but if Pronger is done, I'd like to see him brought in as a coach. The guy knows Xs and Os with regards to defense and could definitely help solidify things there.

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05-08-2012, 06:38 PM
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Agreed about a new 1 or 2. The problem with that though is that once they sign their contract, what will Giroux be worth when it's time to negotiate his contract? That's the problem with a guy like Suter. Someone's going to over pay for him and it's going to be high. I'm sure Holmgren will be interested, but I think the cost in the end will be a detriment. I'm still thinking that the Flyers go the trade route for a defenseman. Right now, the only sure things are Timonen, Coburn, Grossman and Meszaros. The free agency pool for defensemen is rather weak this year and there are numerous teams with a glut of good young defensemen who will be looking to deal (Phoenix is the very first place I can think of). I could see the Flyers making some sort of deal to secure a 1 or 2 that way.

The only other thing I'd like to see is an assistant coach that knows a little bit about defensive formations and helping tighten up the defense a bit. McCarthy has done a good job working one on one with the defenders, but collectively, he's done a poor job overall on the d. That needs to be corrected. Just a thought, but if Pronger is done, I'd like to see him brought in as a coach. The guy knows Xs and Os with regards to defense and could definitely help solidify things there.
Also Timonen's contract is up after next season and Giroux doesn't need to be signed/extended until during or after the 2013-14 season is done. If we do re-sign Timonen, he would go for a lot less I would say.

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05-08-2012, 08:52 PM
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For now, it's only 1 season. I don't think it will be heavily imitated until it becomes a trend. All of the Cup winners since the lockout to this point have had top 10 offenses, and I think all but two have had top 10 defenses. Saying teams will need to be offensive or defensive is an oversimplification, because the teams that win it all are usually both. Lavi's been in the finals twice in recent years, so I don't think he should change his system because of this one (successful) season.


Yup. It worked much better in 2010 when our 4th line was actually a defensively responsible checking line. Luckily those types of players aren't as hard to find as gifted scorers, which we've got. Of course, we also had a few more strong 2-way players than we do now and that's Homer's job to fix.

The 4th line is fine defensively. The problems in this series have stemmed from puck movement at the blue-line. The Flyers D have been overwhelmed by the Devils forwards and haven't been making good plays with the puck or without it. Only Coburn has been solid at both ends.

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05-08-2012, 09:56 PM
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I'm actually surprised everyone is cool with the system (so far). I'd be intrigued to see how we'd do in a defensive system. It'd certainly benefit our goaltending and defense, but we still have so much skill up front, we could still pot 3 gpg at least. The Devils system was phenomenal, I'd like to see us give it a shot.

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05-08-2012, 09:59 PM
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We just have bad luck at the blue line with injuries.

I mean we were giving Matt Carle top mins for petes sake.

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05-08-2012, 11:00 PM
  #25
zarley zelepukin
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
The 4th line is fine defensively. The problems in this series have stemmed from puck movement at the blue-line. The Flyers D have been overwhelmed by the Devils forwards and haven't been making good plays with the puck or without it. Only Coburn has been solid at both ends.
The 4th line is fine defensively for a 4th line, that's not really my point. Before our fourth line was a checking line, one that was often used to start periods against good lines on the opposition. We don't have that from any line right now. The blueliners are part of the issue but the defensive trouble extends to the forwards also.

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