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Are the Flames better off under Sutter than they were under Keenan?

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Old
03-20-2012, 08:17 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by HighLifeMan View Post
@ CGYPUKSUX Lets face the facts here, he inherited a perennial playoff team.
You lost me right there. A perennial playoff team? Winning a division and then limping into the playoffs three straight years and then getting beat in the opening round doesn't constitute a perennial playoff team. If anything, this team has become a perennial underachiever since they won the division.

The results between Sutter's, Sutter's and Playfairs and Keenan's teams weren't that much different. Brent had the lowest total with 90 points, but his team's 94 points last season were the same as what Darryl earned before the run to the cup and what Keenan earned to make the post season. The difference is that other teams got better and the loser points and three point games fell away from the Flames' favor.

You really want to know what has killed the team? It is the early season act of mailing in games and the belief that certain players not being ready to play hockey until November or December is okay. Those games blown in October and November are what has cost this team. It is consistent and independent of the guy behind the bench.

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03-20-2012, 10:30 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by CGYPUKSUX View Post
You lost me right there. A perennial playoff team? Winning a division and then limping into the playoffs three straight years and then getting beat in the opening round doesn't constitute a perennial playoff team. If anything, this team has become a perennial underachiever since they won the division.

The results between Sutter's, Sutter's and Playfairs and Keenan's teams weren't that much different. Brent had the lowest total with 90 points, but his team's 94 points last season were the same as what Darryl earned before the run to the cup and what Keenan earned to make the post season. The difference is that other teams got better and the loser points and three point games fell away from the Flames' favor.

You really want to know what has killed the team? It is the early season act of mailing in games and the belief that certain players not being ready to play hockey until November or December is okay. Those games blown in October and November are what has cost this team. It is consistent and independent of the guy behind the bench.
I agree. Sutter may not be the best coach in the league, but he has to deal with a bunch of crap every year.

When your best player and captain doesn't show up until mid February you are going to have a serious problem.

Sutter IMO is a lot better then Keenan. If this team is going to continue to get younger in the offseason Sutter would probably make a great coach. It's pretty hard to get great results when the only players that are willing to buy into a team concept are boarderline NHLers.

The one thing that really bugs me about Sutter is how he shuffles the lineups constantly throughout the game when things are looking rough.

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03-20-2012, 10:35 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by CGYPUKSUX View Post
You really want to know what has killed the team? It is the early season act of mailing in games and the belief that certain players not being ready to play hockey until November or December is okay. Those games blown in October and November are what has cost this team. It is consistent and independent of the guy behind the bench.
QFT

The other consistency is playing down to teams much lower in the standings. Columbus, Edmonton (recently) Islanders, etc. and for some reason struggling to even show up in those games. The points squandered in the 1-1-2 record against Columbus alone might easily mean the difference between 8th and 9th.

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03-20-2012, 12:58 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
QFT

The other consistency is playing down to teams much lower in the standings. Columbus, Edmonton (recently) Islanders, etc. and for some reason struggling to even show up in those games. The points squandered in the 1-1-2 record against Columbus alone might easily mean the difference between 8th and 9th.
This season the Flames' best divisional record has been against the NW, thanks to Vancouver being the only good team in the entire division. It's literally the only division where they're above a .500 win rate. It might feel like they're playing down to the competition on occasion, but quite honestly they're just kind of bad, and they get beaten down by any above average team in the league more often than not.

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03-20-2012, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
This season the Flames' best divisional record has been against the NW, thanks to Vancouver being the only good team in the entire division. It's literally the only division where they're above a .500 win rate. It might feel like they're playing down to the competition on occasion, but quite honestly they're just kind of bad, and they get beaten down by any above average team in the league more often than not.
is that so?

vs Blues: 1-3-0 (all close games but 1)
vs Vancouver: 2-2-0
vs Dallas: 0-0-2
vs Nashville: 1-3-0 (all close games but 1)
vs Detroit: 2-2-0

for being "beaten down more often than not" they have a pretty good record against 3 of the top 5 teams in the west, and against the other 2 teams only 1 game in each of those season series wasn't close.

unless of course close games are getting "beaten down" now

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03-20-2012, 02:46 PM
  #31
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My short answer, is no they are not better off. With that said, both coaches have flaws and holes in their coaching styles for different reasons. Keenan was clearly at the end of his coaching career where Brent is still growing as a coach.

Regarding whether or not they keep Sutter around and sign him to an extension, I think that depends on what is done with the roster at the end of this season. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sutter stay TBH, Feaster seems to love him and I do not know that there are alot better available options than Sutter at this point either, at least coaches that are proven.


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Old
03-20-2012, 03:15 PM
  #32
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Regarding whether or not they keep Sutter around and sign him to an extension, I think that depends on what is done with the roster at the end of this season. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sutter stay TBH, Feaster seems to love him and I do not know that there are alot better available options than Sutter at this point either, at least coaches that are proven.
What makes you think that??

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03-20-2012, 03:44 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
My short answer, is no they are not better off. With that said, both coaches have flaws and holes in their coaching styles for different reasons. Keenan was clearly at the end of his coaching career where Brent is still growing as a coach.

Regarding whether or not they keep Sutter around and sign him to an extension, I think that depends on what is done with the roster at the end of this season. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sutter stay TBH, Feaster seems to love him and I do not know that there are alot better available options than Sutter at this point either, at least coaches that are proven.
Pretty much what I'm thinking. If a better coaching candidate is out there then great, if not, then re-up Sutter.

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03-20-2012, 04:16 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by FLAMES666 View Post
What makes you think that??
Past comments he's made about him. Saying that he feels Brent is an elite coach, and that the Flames problem with inconsistency has not been Brent, its been on the players.

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03-20-2012, 04:42 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
Past comments he's made about him. Saying that he feels Brent is an elite coach, and that the Flames problem with inconsistency has not been Brent, its been on the players.
Like the way Burke always supported Wilson? Or like every GM supports their coach? (because what else could they say?)

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03-20-2012, 05:37 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by CGYPUKSUX View Post
You lost me right there. A perennial playoff team? Winning a division and then limping into the playoffs three straight years and then getting beat in the opening round doesn't constitute a perennial playoff team. If anything, this team has become a perennial underachiever since they won the division.

The results between Sutter's, Sutter's and Playfairs and Keenan's teams weren't that much different. Brent had the lowest total with 90 points, but his team's 94 points last season were the same as what Darryl earned before the run to the cup and what Keenan earned to make the post season. The difference is that other teams got better and the loser points and three point games fell away from the Flames' favor.

You really want to know what has killed the team? It is the early season act of mailing in games and the belief that certain players not being ready to play hockey until November or December is okay. Those games blown in October and November are what has cost this team. It is consistent and independent of the guy behind the bench.
"Perennial" may not have been the appropriate word to use, but he inherited a team that had made the post season for five consecutive seasons...hardly "trash or garbage" in relation to the majority of the league.

You can try to bend and manipulate his success here any way you want, but he is now on the verge of missing the playoffs for three years in a row on a cap ceiling team. That is simply unacceptable.

The parity around the league has grown tremendously over the past three years, all Calgary has done under Brent Sutter is remain at a standstill. Is it solely his fault? absolutely not, but why should he deserve an extension...

You can simply point to any time frame throughout the season in which the Flames have struggled and say that is the reason they might miss the playoffs. The responsibility is on both the players and the coaching staff to make sure those slip ups do not occur. We have seen a ton of player personal moved over the past season, it's now Brent's turn.

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03-20-2012, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by HighLifeMan View Post
"Perennial" may not have been the appropriate word to use, but he inherited a team that had made the post season for five consecutive seasons...hardly "trash or garbage" in relation to the majority of the league.
Perennial is the perfect word, it means it happens on a yearly basis. Don't let the ignorance of others change something you were right about

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03-20-2012, 05:55 PM
  #38
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Perennial is the perfect word, it means it happens on a yearly basis. Don't let the ignorance of others change something you were right about
Well everyone is certainly entitled to interpret a word as they see fit, but in this case I fully agree with you.

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03-20-2012, 06:04 PM
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Well everyone is certainly entitled to interpret a word as they see fit, but in this case I fully agree with you.
lol the definition of a word is not up for interpretation, especially one such as this. When describing a perennial plant do you no longer consider one perennial because one year it grew sideways and died early? Nope, you don't, its perennial as long as it sprouts out of the ground.

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03-20-2012, 06:10 PM
  #40
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You can try to bend and manipulate his success here any way you want, but he is now on the verge of missing the playoffs for three years in a row on a cap ceiling team. That is simply unacceptable.
The problem is that his teams are not that much different from any of the other coaches. Taking away the team that won the division, that's a spread of six points top to bottom. Not a significant number when you weigh it out. Not good enough, but not enough to tar and feather a guy when he's been in the same boat as the other coaches. The major problems are elsewhere and it seems that maybe management is cluing in.

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03-20-2012, 06:21 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
Perennial is the perfect word, it means it happens on a yearly basis. Don't let the ignorance of others change something you were right about
Sure thing Superfan. What about those seven long years before that? Perennial losers? In sports perennial means always in contention, not popping up for a short period of time, then going dormant again. The Boston Bruins were a perennial playoff team, making it for 29 consecutive years. The Flames are the punchline to a joke in comparison.

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03-20-2012, 09:31 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by CGYPUKSUX View Post
Yeah, horrible manager. Don't have a clue. I guess being contracted by companies to fix their dysfunctional business units gives me no unique perspective on the issue and you with your wealth of expertise in human and organizational psychology are probably more equipped to make the call. Say, Dr. Gio, what do you focus on when the company in question has gone through four line managers in a short period of time? Is it likely a problem with the line managers or a bigger problem, like the workers or the culture established by the workers?
Hehe. You're telling me that a theory X manager who doesn't even know the biological pathway of memory formation would actually receive money from the builder's of our economy? Rigggghhtt.... I could cut a cheque to down-syndromed chimp and get a more intellegent ramble than that.

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Originally Posted by CGYPUKSUX View Post
Watch #12 during a game. Cherry picks at the blueline. Think that is part of the game plan? Crosses the blueline and curls on the half boards as his team mates go to the net, but waits too long and loses the puck. Think that is part of the game plan? Enters the zone and then attempts to over-handle the puck and beat the defender by himself, usually resulting in a turnover. Think that is part of the game plan? This is the leader on the team and he never complies with the game plan. If any of these behaviors were the game plan you'd see other players on other lines exhibiting the same behaviors. You don't. There are others that are doing stupid things as well, and not following the plan, so it isn't just Iginla. Every player has his warts, but not all of them are in leadership roles or carry such responsibility.
Did you ever stop to think that Iggy is asked to bring this team offense? A team that is struggling for goals? I remember when Sutter was calling out leadership in December, but funny, I haven't heard that lately... I wonder why? Why don't you actually bring some stats with you next time you make a claim. I brought Sutter's stats about being offensive one year, defensive the next, etc., while you argued rhetoric because you got nothing to back up your claims.

You want to talk about consistent losers, why don't check which player has been is matched up against Iginla every night? Let's be honest, if Iggy wasn't bringing his effort, he wouldn't be scoring against the best defensive lines in the league. Otherwise, you are insulting the top 4 defenders of each team thinking that a guy, who could easily be another Dustin Penner, gets 30 ****ing goals for 11 straight seasons. Yeah, he's a real bum.

I could see where people are coming from when they say Iggy needs to show up all year and not just after November, but besides that, there's a reason Iggy will be in the HOF. You know the HOF right? That organization that selects the best hockey players who ever played the game.


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Old
03-20-2012, 09:58 PM
  #43
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Like the way Burke always supported Wilson? Or like every GM supports their coach? (because what else could they say?)
Exactly like how Burke supported Wilson! If you followed the situation with the Leafs, Burke went with Wilson until the bitter end and until he had no other choice because he respected him so much. Your example was a better argument for what I was saying about Feaster.

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03-20-2012, 10:00 PM
  #44
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I don't understand why people think Iginla is suppose to be Wayne Greztky. Yes Iggy has a slow start, but so do a lot of players. Perry had a slow start, Kessel is having a slow finish, while Eric Staal had a disaterous start. Selanne and Geztlaf are having off years, so is Pat Kane and Marleau. Should these player's get traded?

Iggy is in the top 30 in points, top 15 in goals, and he's having a freaking career low. Iggy competes with the leagues best year after year after year after. And guess what?!? He's played for the Calgary ****ing Flames his entire career. Not the Detroit Red Wings, but the perpetual mediocre Calgary Flames that haven't been a favorite for anything since the 80's! He's the only elite talent we ever owned, and you guys jump down his throat like he's Matt Stajan! Spoiled *****es if I ever seen any.

Ugh. Maybe Iggy should be traded to a team that can appreciate what he brings. His own fans toss him aside like last week's leftovers after he spent his entire working career trying to win hockey games in this disrespectful city. From being a bloody teenager until his retirement, he has given this city absolutely everything he has. While Lebron James type players seek the big bucks and fame and don't give a **** about the fans. **** people, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Disgusting...

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03-20-2012, 10:02 PM
  #45
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Exactly like how Burke supported Wilson! If you followed the situation with the Leafs, Burke went with Wilson until the bitter end and until he had no other choice because he respected him so much. Your example was a better argument for what I was saying about Feaster.
C'mon dude. No GM is going to say that they're confidence in the coach is shaky. Even the game before they fire the coach the GM's stay true to their coach.

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03-20-2012, 10:26 PM
  #46
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I don't understand why people think Iginla is suppose to be Wayne Greztky. Yes Iggy has a slow start, but so do a lot of players. Perry had a slow start, Kessel is having a slow finish, while Eric Staal had a disaterous start. Selanne and Geztlaf are having off years, so is Pat Kane and Marleau. Should these player's get traded?

Iggy is in the top 30 in points, top 15 in goals, and he's having a freaking career low. Iggy competes with the leagues best year after year after year after. And guess what?!? He's played for the Calgary ****ing Flames his entire career. Not the Detroit Red Wings, but the perpetual mediocre Calgary Flames that haven't been a favorite for anything since the 80's! He's the only elite talent we ever owned, and you guys jump down his throat like he's Matt Stajan! Spoiled *****es if I ever seen any.

Ugh. Maybe Iggy should be traded to a team that can appreciate what he brings. His own fans toss him aside like last week's leftovers after he spent his entire working career trying to win hockey games in this disrespectful city. From being a bloody teenager until his retirement, he has given this city absolutely everything he has. While Lebron James type players seek the big bucks and fame and don't give a **** about the fans. **** people, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Disgusting...
I heartily endorse the sentiments of this post.

Too many Flame fans expect Iginla to single-handedly lead the team to a Cup and anything short of that seems to nullify any all all of his previous accomplishments or contributions. The NHL does not work that way.

Score 43 goals and finish 6th overall in points? "Meh, should have scored 60 goals and 120 points to get the team into the playoffs." Heck of an entitlement culture.

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03-20-2012, 11:01 PM
  #47
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C'mon dude. No GM is going to say that they're confidence in the coach is shaky. Even the game before they fire the coach the GM's stay true to their coach.
Yes and no, specifically to the Burke/Wilson situation Burke was always very candid of supporting his coach saying he was going no where. It wasn't up until the last 2 weeks of Wilson's tenure with the Leafs that Burke was not to be found by the media. It was only then that his silence inidicated that Wilson's time with the Leafs may be nearing an end.

Every coach in the NHL has a shelf life, its as sure a thing as death and taxes. I am just indicating that Feaster has only ever shown strong support of Sutter and has always given him his stamp of approval, and has done it in a stronger fashion than Brent's own brother Darryl ever did. Again, if they miss the playoffs a change wouldn't surprise me in the least. However, at the same time I would not be surprised to see Feaster bring Sutter back because he may feel he is the best available option.

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03-20-2012, 11:16 PM
  #48
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Yes and no, specifically to the Burke/Wilson situation Burke was always very candid of supporting his coach saying he was going no where. It wasn't up until the last 2 weeks of Wilson's tenure with the Leafs that Burke was not to be found by the media. It was only then that his silence inidicated that Wilson's time with the Leafs may be nearing an end.

Every coach in the NHL has a shelf life, its as sure a thing as death and taxes. I am just indicating that Feaster has only ever shown strong support of Sutter and has always given him his stamp of approval, and has done it in a stronger fashion than Brent's own brother Darryl ever did. Again, if they miss the playoffs a change wouldn't surprise me in the least. However, at the same time I would not be surprised to see Feaster bring Sutter back because he may feel he is the best available option.
Well, I haven't heard from Feaster in a while about the subject. Maybe he's avoiding the media for a reason....

And we really don't know the options yet. In the other thread, there's a whole wack of names that could be potential head coaches. If Feaster claims that Sutter is the only option, then Feaster isn't doing his job. Maybe he's the best option now, but we'll have to wait till the season is over to really know if he's the best option for next season.

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03-21-2012, 12:00 AM
  #49
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Well, I haven't heard from Feaster in a while about the subject. Maybe he's avoiding the media for a reason....

And we really don't know the options yet. In the other thread, there's a whole wack of names that could be potential head coaches. If Feaster claims that Sutter is the only option, then Feaster isn't doing his job. Maybe he's the best option now, but we'll have to wait till the season is over to really know if he's the best option for next season.
Thats true actually, it also could be because Feaster's job may be in jeporady itself if the Flames miss the playoffs, although I don't believe that to be true. I think we can all agree that big changes are coming this offseason to the Flames and Brent Sutter leaving could very likely be one of those changes.

You are also right, we do not know yet who will be available this offseason. There are a bunch of contending teams in the NHL that are on the fringe of making the playoffs. It is likely to think that at least one of those coaches will be let go by their team if they come up short. That could really change our situation here in Calgary. Carlye would of been on the top of my list, but now that he is not available I'm not as inclined to Sutter walk until I see what coaches could be available come this offseason.

As I also said in another thread, if we go with a new coach Boughner and Ward would be my top choices.

Fenton would be my top choice for GM if some reason Feaster was let go.

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03-21-2012, 12:37 AM
  #50
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Keenan was horrible.

Sutter is a good coach. Would I want him back? I don't know, depends on the direction of the club next season.

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