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The Out of Town Thread part XXXV (All non Habs related news here)

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Old
03-20-2012, 11:01 AM
  #201
Miller Time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chewBACHa View Post
Toronto made the same thing with Wilson ^^

you just listed the negatives
compare it with the positive (not listed all)

Eller for Halak
The Rivet trade (2007) (Max Pac + Gorges)
Subban
Price

At the end, you evaluate with the plus and the minus

the results are atrocious, so time out for PG
I don't see how Subban/Price can be reflections of Gauthier, or his influence prior to being GM. While it's pretty reasonable to associate the director of pro scouting with personnel moves involving pro players (that is what the role is for), trying to connect him to the draft would be pushing it.

Gauthier would have had input in the Gorges part of the Rivet trade... same with the Kovalev trade, the Hamrlik signing...
He brought in Diaz, got emelin to come over, made a good move in adding Wiz, the halak return was good value (though questionable decision making in not fully canvasing what offers were out there).

while some posters live firmly in a world of black and white, it goes without saying to anyone with common sense that no GM ONLY makes bad moves/decisions... heck even Milbury had a good moment or two.

The question is one of comparing the track records of Burke & Gauthier, and for the reasons I've stated, I don't think the two are even in the same ball park as GM's... despite Burkes recent (and therefore fresh-of-mind) struggles. Amazingly people seem to forget that even with an epic late-season collapse, the laffs are still sitting ahead of Gauthier's team!


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Originally Posted by Go Habs Go View Post
Once Hamilton and Knight develop, Burke will be treated like JFJ. Leaf fans are already getting sick of him and regretting the Kessel trade. Just wait until they see Hamilton and Knight realize their potential. Grass always looks greener on the other side but the situation in Toronto right now is not much different then Montreal. Not as bad but its definitely getting there. I live in Toronto and everybody I encounter and discuss hockey about end up bashing Burke and the whole organization right now.
It's amazing that the situation isn't even more bleak than that in Toronto these days... Habs have been futile since the mid-90's, Laffs haven't even sniffed at a cup in decades.

and yes, the Kessel trade was god-awful. Burke took a big swing, and whiffed royally, though the trades biggest problem lies in his overestimation of how quickly his roster would improve, not so much in the return he got.

I still maintain that the Gomez trade dwarfs the Kessel deal in its sheer folly.

Hamilton may end up a stud dman, much like what McDo has turned into (and unlike Burke, we actually had the player in our organization as opposed to gambling on a pick).

Seguin looks headed to being the superior player to Kessel, but let's not forget how good Kessel is... he's pretty much exactly what Burke believed he'd be, ppg 30+ goal scorer, and he's only 24.

Knight could, as you point out, further make the trade look bad for the Laffs... just as Valentenko (who has improved steadily with the Rangers AHL team), could further deepen the misery of the Gomez experience.

then there was higgins...

Unlike the Kessel deal, in the Gomez trade we gave up a blue-chip prospect, a solid young roster player & a prospect with intriguing upside, while taking on a complete bust of a player with a 7.4M$ cap hit & two other players we didn't see fit to retain in the organization. No value for us, great value for the Rangers.

At least Burke got something to show for his blunder.


Situation for both teams is dismal right now, but I'd wager that if both men keep their jobs, I don't like our odds of getting out of this mess anytime sooner than the laffs

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03-20-2012, 11:38 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Go Habs Go View Post
Once Hamilton and Knight develop, Burke will be treated like JFJ. Leaf fans are already getting sick of him and regretting the Kessel trade. Just wait until they see Hamilton and Knight realize their potential. Grass always looks greener on the other side but the situation in Toronto right now is not much different then Montreal. Not as bad but its definitely getting there. I live in Toronto and everybody I encounter and discuss hockey about end up bashing Burke and the whole organization right now.
Once you make a trade that is that bad for an organization, it's awfully hard to recover from it.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
How exactly do you figure that?
I'd do the Gomez deal over the Kessel one any day of the week.
Not to mention, takeaway Kessel from the Leafs, and they might end up with higher picks.
Sorry man, but I'd be a lot more pissed to have let go Seguin and Hamilton, not to mention the 2nd rounder they got as well (Jarred Knight) than just McDo.
There really isn't much of a reason to say the Gomez deal is worse. It isn't.
There's one area where it's far worse. The Gomez trade made no sense. It just can't be explained.

At least with Burke you could argue that he was getting a 23 year old player and didn't foresee himself finishing as low as he did. I didn't agree with the trade at the time and thought it could be very bad when it was made but I never saw that it would be THIS bad. Unfortunately for Burke though the team tanked and they wound up trading 2nd overall and then a high pick again next year. Disaster.

Secondly, the Leafs actually got something good in return at least. We got stuck with Mr. I Can't Score In 50 Games for a stud blueliner and we took on a huge cap hit and freed up money for our rival to go after a UFA we could've approached ourselves. Not to mention we just could've hung onto Koivu for peanuts.

Just mindblowingly stupid.

All that said though, I would be more pissed if we made the Kessel trade too. I think you're right, that trade is far worse in terms of hurting them than Gomez hurt us. The Gomez trade set us back and McD will remind us this over the next decade+ but it's not going to hurt nearly to the extent that the Kessel one will hurt the Leafs. That one has the potential to be one of THE worst trades of all time.

Seguin is almost surely going to be better than Kessel and is younger. Hamilton could turn out to be McD or better plus there's Knight... terrible move.

God I wouldn't want to be a Leaf fan right now.

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03-20-2012, 11:43 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
There's one area where it's far worse. The Gomez trade made no sense. It just can't be explained.

At least with Burke you could argue that he was getting a 23 year old player and didn't foresee himself finishing as low as he did. I didn't agree with the trade at the time and thought it could be very bad when it was made but I never saw that it would be THIS bad. Unfortunately for Burke though the team tanked and they wound up trading 2nd overall and then a high pick again next year. Disaster.

Secondly, the Leafs actually got something good in return at least. We got stuck with Mr. I Can't Score In 50 Games for a stud blueliner and we took on a huge cap hit and freed up money for our rival to go after a UFA we could've approached ourselves. Not to mention we just could've hung onto Koivu for peanuts.

Just mindblowingly stupid.

All that said though, I would be more pissed if we made the Kessel trade too. I think you're right, that trade is far worse in terms of hurting them than Gomez hurt us. The Gomez trade set us back and McD will remind us this over the next decade+ but it's not going to hurt nearly to the extent that the Kessel one will hurt the Leafs. That one has the potential to be one of THE worst trades of all time.

Seguin is almost surely going to be better than Kessel and is younger. Hamilton could turn out to be McD or better plus there's Knight... terrible move.

God I wouldn't want to be a Leaf fan right now.
I can agree with that.

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03-20-2012, 12:16 PM
  #204
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Burke is a living nightmare compared to Gauthier. Gauthier might not have gotten perfect value for some of the 3rd liners he has dealt but he hasn't given up someone like Seguin/Hamilton. Kessel is a streaky goalscorer who brings nothing else, a nice piece but not something to build around. Not only did he screw up but he screwed up in his own division, Seguin and Hamilton will now be wreaking Toronto 6 times a year for the next 10 years possibly.

This trade reminds me of Gainey trading Grabovski to toronto for a bag of junk. I wanted Grabs traded at the time but after the trade I hated it and was attacked for calling out gainey on the basis the trade was in the division and we didn't know Grabs ceiling. needless to say Grabs went on to be a decent 2nd line centre and on top of that injured Markov.

Gauthier has made better moves that will pay off in the long run. Cole has already had massive influence on Pacioretty not to mention the scoreboard and out playstyle. The team is getting bigger and we have acquired a pile of draft picks in the first two rounds of the next two drafts. Kaberle we got for a song and could turn into a real steal if he keeps up or improves his production. Tell me how much a 40-50 point dman goes for at the trade deadline? Bourque is a third liner winger depth, he can go either way and for 3.3million who cares? Low risk, high reward, these are the kind of moves that will bring about success.

We still have all of the best pieces, nothing has been lost.

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03-20-2012, 01:02 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Burke is a living nightmare compared to Gauthier. Gauthier might not have gotten perfect value for some of the 3rd liners he has dealt but he hasn't given up someone like Seguin/Hamilton. Kessel is a streaky goalscorer who brings nothing else, a nice piece but not something to build around. Not only did he screw up but he screwed up in his own division, Seguin and Hamilton will now be wreaking Toronto 6 times a year for the next 10 years possibly.

This trade reminds me of Gainey trading Grabovski to toronto for a bag of junk. I wanted Grabs traded at the time but after the trade I hated it and was attacked for calling out gainey on the basis the trade was in the division and we didn't know Grabs ceiling. needless to say Grabs went on to be a decent 2nd line centre and on top of that injured Markov.

Gauthier has made better moves that will pay off in the long run. Cole has already had massive influence on Pacioretty not to mention the scoreboard and out playstyle. The team is getting bigger and we have acquired a pile of draft picks in the first two rounds of the next two drafts. Kaberle we got for a song and could turn into a real steal if he keeps up or improves his production. Tell me how much a 40-50 point dman goes for at the trade deadline? Bourque is a third liner winger depth, he can go either way and for 3.3million who cares? Low risk, high reward, these are the kind of moves that will bring about success.

We still have all of the best pieces, nothing has been lost.
Grabovski fetched a 2nd rounder and a prospect as a 24 year old with 9 NHL points in 27 career games...more than what Gauthier got for any of the players he traded. If that return is junk, then what Gauthier returned is more than junk.

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03-20-2012, 01:13 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Grabovski fetched a 2nd rounder and a prospect as a 24 year old with 9 NHL points in 27 career games...more than what Gauthier got for any of the players he traded. If that return is junk, then what Gauthier returned is more than junk.
Yes because the leafs were known to be so schrewd with their draft picks.

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03-20-2012, 01:50 PM
  #207
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Yes because the leafs were known to be so schrewd with their draft picks.
What does that have to with saying the pick+ is a bag of junk? Don't you see your double standard?

Gainey: Acquiring 2nd round pick+ for a disgruntled talented, unproven, unsigned player with KHL risk = "bag of junk"

Gauthier: Acquiring Dustin Boyd for a younger disgruntled, arguably more talented, more proven (at the times of each deal), unsigned player with less KHL risk = "nothing has been lost"

I'm not even defending Gainey here, my point is we need better management than we've had this past decade. When the players you're praising as good added future pieces are approaching their mid 30s and we're currently sitting 3rd last in the NHL, you know there's a problem.

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03-20-2012, 01:53 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Grabovski fetched a 2nd rounder and a prospect as a 24 year old with 9 NHL points in 27 career games...more than what Gauthier got for any of the players he traded. If that return is junk, then what Gauthier returned is more than junk.
Grabovski was a young player with potential.

The players Gauthier traded are older (we know their ceilings) and are UFAs.

The Grabovski trade was a very short sighted move..

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03-20-2012, 02:10 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Grabovski was a young player with potential.

The players Gauthier traded are older (we know their ceilings) and are UFAs.

The Grabovski trade was a very short sighted move..
Grabovski was 24.

Pouliot was 24 when he was let go for nothing.
S.Kostitsyn was 23 when he was let go for Boyd.
D'Agostini was 23 when he was let for for Palushaj.
Lapierre was 25 when he was let go.
Pyatt was 24 when he was let go.

Not commenting on the moves itself, but if trading Grabovski for a 2nd+ was shortsighted, so are these.

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03-20-2012, 02:26 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
What does that have to with saying the pick+ is a bag of junk? Don't you see your double standard?

Gainey: Acquiring 2nd round pick+ for a disgruntled talented, unproven, unsigned player with KHL risk = "bag of junk"

Gauthier: Acquiring Dustin Boyd for a younger disgruntled, arguably more talented, more proven (at the times of each deal), unsigned player with less KHL risk = "nothing has been lost"

I'm not even defending Gainey here, my point is we need better management than we've had this past decade. When the players you're praising as good added future pieces are approaching their mid 30s and we're currently sitting 3rd last in the NHL, you know there's a problem.
You missed the whole point. Trading him was fine, trading him to TORONTO was not fine. Toronto should have paid a premium or no trade, as much as I like 2nd round picks that was not a time to collect one.

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03-20-2012, 04:07 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Grabovski was 24.

Pouliot was 24 when he was let go for nothing.
S.Kostitsyn was 23 when he was let go for Boyd.
D'Agostini was 23 when he was let for for Palushaj.
Lapierre was 25 when he was let go.
Pyatt was 24 when he was let go.

Not commenting on the moves itself, but if trading Grabovski for a 2nd+ was shortsighted, so are these.
None of those guys are big pieces. Guys like Tom Pyatt Lapierre SK Pouliot and Dagostini litterally grow on trees in the NHL. Grabovsky is a pretty good player but we got a pick and a prospect for him, we had centers ahead of him at the time in Koivu and Plekanec.

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03-20-2012, 04:15 PM
  #212
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You missed the whole point. Trading him was fine, trading him to TORONTO was not fine. Toronto should have paid a premium or no trade, as much as I like 2nd round picks that was not a time to collect one.
Toronto paid more than I was expecting at the time. Garbovsky was unproven at the NHL level, was already 24 and had the threat of KHL if he got traded somewhere he didn't want to go.

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03-20-2012, 04:53 PM
  #213
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All of those fights you showed Lucic losing were at least 2 years ago when he was only 21, since last year he has been beating everyone including Matt Carkner who most considered the top fighter last year , especially after he beat down the guy who was considered the #1 guy, the late Derek Booregard. If you noticed, some of the guys who Lucic tangled with when he was young, i.e Chris Neil ( draw) Brandon Prust (loss), in the rematch, Lucic destroyed them, he is now 23 and there is not one guy who he can't take. There is a reason why his fellow players voted him as the toughest guy in the NHL.

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03-20-2012, 05:05 PM
  #214
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All of those fights you showed Lucic losing were at least 2 years ago when he was only 21, since last year he has been beating everyone including Matt Carkner who most considered the top fighter last year , especially after he beat down the guy who was considered the #1 guy, the late Derek Booregard. If you noticed, some of the guys who Lucic tangled with when he was young, i.e Chris Neil ( draw) Brandon Prust (loss), in the rematch, Lucic destroyed them, he is now 23 and there is not one guy who he can't take. There is a reason why his fellow players voted him as the toughest guy in the NHL.
Don't forget Lucic takes on women every summer...now that's tough...

All kidding aside, he is a tough customer, but he will get his one day...

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03-20-2012, 05:16 PM
  #215
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Don't forget Lucic takes on women every summer...now that's tough...

All kidding aside, he is a tough customer, but he will get his one day...
Are you saying he doesn't play the white way?

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03-20-2012, 05:20 PM
  #216
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Toronto paid more than I was expecting at the time. Garbovsky was unproven at the NHL level, was already 24 and had the threat of KHL if he got traded somewhere he didn't want to go.
It ended up costing us didn't it? He hated Montreal and we had to play him 6-8 times a year when he hurt markov. Wasn't worth the risk. Trading inside divisions is risky and stupid all for a 2nd round pick.

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03-20-2012, 05:31 PM
  #217
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It ended up costing us didn't it? He hated Montreal and we had to play him 6-8 times a year when he hurt markov. Wasn't worth the risk. Trading inside divisions is risky and stupid all for a 2nd round pick.
He could have hurt Markov playing for San Jose.

I'm sure they wanted more from Toronto to trade him in division, just like Kessel cost an arm and a leg for Toronto.

I find it dumb that people evaluate the Grabovsky trade for what he is doing now rather than what he was then. It's somewhat like trading a draft pick for player X and the pick becomes a Zetterberg. Grabovsky wouldn't have scored 50+ points playing on our 3rd line.

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03-20-2012, 05:34 PM
  #218
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I could understand the Grabo trade at the time. We were coming off a first place year, and we traded a future asset for short term help, because remember we traded that 2nd round pick for Robert Lang who was having a very good year until his Achilles injury. In hindsight, yea bad trade, at the time people were happy with Lang over Grabovski heading into the year.

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03-20-2012, 05:34 PM
  #219
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You missed the whole point. Trading him was fine, trading him to TORONTO was not fine. Toronto should have paid a premium or no trade, as much as I like 2nd round picks that was not a time to collect one.
This is a valid argument. In hindsight, the Leafs got a better player than what their return tends to fetch. However, you said nothing even remotely close to that in your previous comments to suggest this was your point. First was saying the return was a "bag of junk", next was suggesting that getting picks wasn't hard since it was Toronto. You also fail to comment on the similarities of the Grabovski/S.Kostitsyn trades of which Grabovski returned much more. Whether people want to admit it or not, SK is a top 6 forward (even led a playoff team in scoring) that plays all situations. Frankly, it isn't far fetched to suggest he's better or will be better than Grabovski.

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None of those guys are big pieces. Guys like Tom Pyatt Lapierre SK Pouliot and Dagostini litterally grow on trees in the NHL. Grabovsky is a pretty good player but we got a pick and a prospect for him, we had centers ahead of him at the time in Koivu and Plekanec.
Is there really a tree that literally bears player fruit?

Kidding aside, the point of my list was to point out that Gauthier has gotten rid of young players around the age Grabovski was at the time who haven't exactly shown their peak. If you read the response I was quoting he said, "The players Gauthier traded are older (we know their ceilings) and are UFAs." I don't think it was the case for the players I listed.

D'Agostini put up 21g and 46pts after being traded.
S.Kostitsyn put up 23g and 50pts after being traded (continuing pace and still playing top 6 minutes on a playoff team)
Pouliot and Lapierre are bottom 6 guys on playoff teams. I mean would you really be surprised if Pouliot breaks out next season and puts up 20+g and 40-50pts?

I think my list of players justifiably meets the criteria that would refute the statement "The players Gauthier traded are older (we know their ceilings) and are UFAs."

I'm not saying keep D'Agostini, Pyatt, Lapierre (although I do believe we should have kept Pouliot and SK and they are wasted assets).

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03-20-2012, 05:36 PM
  #220
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He could have hurt Markov playing for San Jose.

I'm sure they wanted more from Toronto to trade him in division, just like Kessel cost an arm and a leg for Toronto.

I find it dumb that people evaluate the Grabovsky trade for what he is doing now rather than what he was then. It's somewhat like trading a draft pick for player X and the pick becomes a Zetterberg. Grabovsky wouldn't have scored 50+ points playing on our 3rd line.
No he would have moved on and there wouldn't have been a problem. Instead he went to our bigest rivals and those matches intensified the animosity. He goes to SJ and we never hear from him again.

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03-20-2012, 05:36 PM
  #221
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He could have hurt Markov playing for San Jose.

I'm sure they wanted more from Toronto to trade him in division, just like Kessel cost an arm and a leg for Toronto.

I find it dumb that people evaluate the Grabovsky trade for what he is doing now rather than what he was then. It's somewhat like trading a draft pick for player X and the pick becomes a Zetterberg. Grabovsky wouldn't have scored 50+ points playing on our 3rd line.
20 points in 12 AHL games, 3rd highest P/60 after his callup at the deadline.

I don't think we gave him up cheap either, it's just the way trades for young, unproven players go.

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03-20-2012, 05:54 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by TheBuriedHab View Post
I could understand the Grabo trade at the time. We were coming off a first place year, and we traded a future asset for short term help, because remember we traded that 2nd round pick for Robert Lang who was having a very good year until his Achilles injury. In hindsight, yea bad trade, at the time people were happy with Lang over Grabovski heading into the year.
Lang has nothing to do directly with the Grabovsky trade. We got a 2nd rounder and a prospect, what we did with those 2 assets has no bearing on the initial trade.

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03-20-2012, 05:55 PM
  #223
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20 points in 12 AHL games, 3rd highest P/60 after his callup at the deadline.

I don't think we gave him up cheap either, it's just the way trades for young, unproven players go.
He was playing in the AHL as a 24 year old. If he had those numbers at 20 then it makes no sense to trade him unless the return in huge.

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03-20-2012, 06:17 PM
  #224
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Burke is a living nightmare compared to Gauthier. Gauthier might not have gotten perfect value for some of the 3rd liners he has dealt but he hasn't given up someone like Seguin/Hamilton. Kessel is a streaky goalscorer who brings nothing else, a nice piece but not something to build around. Not only did he screw up but he screwed up in his own division, Seguin and Hamilton will now be wreaking Toronto 6 times a year for the next 10 years possibly.

This trade reminds me of Gainey trading Grabovski to toronto for a bag of junk. I wanted Grabs traded at the time but after the trade I hated it and was attacked for calling out gainey on the basis the trade was in the division and we didn't know Grabs ceiling. needless to say Grabs went on to be a decent 2nd line centre and on top of that injured Markov.

Gauthier has made better moves that will pay off in the long run. Cole has already had massive influence on Pacioretty not to mention the scoreboard and out playstyle. The team is getting bigger and we have acquired a pile of draft picks in the first two rounds of the next two drafts. Kaberle we got for a song and could turn into a real steal if he keeps up or improves his production. Tell me how much a 40-50 point dman goes for at the trade deadline? Bourque is a third liner winger depth, he can go either way and for 3.3million who cares? Low risk, high reward, these are the kind of moves that will bring about success.

We still have all of the best pieces, nothing has been lost.
No idea how you can call Kessel streaky.

He's on track for 40 goals this year.

Are you saying if he was consistent he would score 80 goals?

*********

With respect to the Grabovski trade, it turned into Robert Lang, who was a fantastic pickup until his leg got injured. It could have also turned into Mats Sundin which was an intelligent risk to take ...

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03-20-2012, 06:18 PM
  #225
overlords
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Cheering on the leafs in their own GDT is both hilarious and (technically?) not trolling.

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