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The Rebuild Thread-"You be the GM"

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Old
03-20-2012, 11:22 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by JF Omalycat View Post
I'd start with getting rid of Stinger and adding a lot of hard hitting metal to the playlist. Get them mofo's pumped up, dammit!
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Originally Posted by FunkyColdHrdina View Post
Agreed, complete rebranding.
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Love it!

Heretics, the lot of you.

I'm forwarding this thread to the Department of Homeland Security.


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03-20-2012, 11:27 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Problem--you are factoring in Rick Nash. Ain't gonna be here. And the chances that whoever replaces him is going to put up 30 goals is not good.
Nash staying or going is dependent on what other teams are offering. That's why this year's playoff race in the West is so intriguing...who knows what obscene offers will come along if teams either miss entirely or go down early?

Quote:
The overall problem is that in order to even attempt to test your hypothesis we'd need depth. Something this team lacks. Consider the flip side to your Weaver platoon situation--injuries. What happens if one of those defensemen you named goes down? Will their replacement be able to produce an equivalent amount?

I'm still not convinced the defense (and certainly not the goaltending) is as close to fixed as some seem to think. And a good part of that is depth. Witness Nikitin's performances sans Tyutin, which are all over the place--they work as a pair, but when one of them is without the other the results have not been as good. You could argue the same with Wiz pre-Johnson. There is a fragility to our defense that is troubling.
7th defenseman on my list would be Methot, and that's not including anyone currently in Springfield (or on another team).

Fragility or simply poor chemistry?

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03-20-2012, 11:41 AM
  #28
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I would plan around 2 scenarios:

Trade Nash:

If you trade the Capt, get a reliable #1 Netminder, and a top 6 forward that can score 25+ goals in return.
UFA's: Go shopping for another top 6 forward to round out your skaters first, then look to upgrade your defense.



Keep Nash:

UFA: Shop for a #1 Netminder first, then address your needs for skaters and defenseman equally.



Draft: Dumba may be a Jack Johnson in the making, but Yakupov is too good to pass up and we have a pair of defenseman in the pipeline that look promising. The needs for this team, especially if Nash is moved, and going to be offense over defense going forward.

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03-20-2012, 11:54 AM
  #29
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Well, I see this as a "big picture" mess/crisis/problem. Picking good players vs. dumping bad players; rebranding the team; improving our reputation across the NHL; and for Chrissake, bring in new management. I think we all know this is going to take years to do. We'll probably just have to be content with a few playoff runs where we get swept. I do remain optimistic we can get some management shake-up this year.
To me, it isn't necessarily a good players versus bad players problem. It is a pieces / parts problem.

Ideally, management would put together a TEAM that is greater than the sum of its parts. The TEAM we had this season was much better on paper than on the ice (for whatever reason). They have been playing far below their potential (except for a handful of guys) individually, and for the most part, have not elevated the play of their line-mates.

TEAMS that are successful have smaller groupings within them that work well together. We've seen it a bit with the Tyutin - Nikitin and J Johnson - Wisniewski pairings. Vyborny (sp?) and Nash had it. The Sedins have it.

Some individuals in the league are capable of elevating the play of those around them - Datsyuk, Lidstrom, and Crosby for example. We don't have "that guy" here.

I agree with Mayor Bee to some extent. It would be better to have 4 guys that could put up 20 goals than one guy who can pot 45. If you end up with an average team in ALL categories, you at least have a chance rather than playing with one superstar and a bunch of scrubs.

We do need much better goaltending next year though.

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03-20-2012, 12:01 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by cbjgirl View Post
I agree with Mayor Bee to some extent. It would be better to have 4 guys that could put up 20 goals than one guy who can pot 45. If you end up with an average team in ALL categories, you at least have a chance rather than playing with one superstar and a bunch of scrubs.

We do need much better goaltending next year though.
Like St Louis and Detroit, both teams that won't likely finish the season with a 30 goal scorer. We don't have to replace Nash with a super star, but we need 1 or 2 skilled forwards that can finsh (20-30 goal a year guys).

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03-20-2012, 01:47 PM
  #31
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You think we are bad now? I have a hard time even contemplating this team without Nash. A lot of Nash haters out there, I guess, but watching him play for the CBJ has been the difference most nights for this fan.

We are gonna be one terrible bad team if this goes full blown nuclear. Even worse to watch than now, if possible.

Lose Nash? Be careful what you wish for. I still think there is a chance, albeit small, that he stays. I sincerely hope he does.

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Old
03-20-2012, 01:57 PM
  #32
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Over compensate on defense. Keep strengthening the top 6, adding to depth, repeating.

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Old
03-20-2012, 02:04 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Derby View Post
You think we are bad now? I have a hard time even contemplating this team without Nash. A lot of Nash haters out there, I guess, but watching him play for the CBJ has been the difference most nights for this fan.

We are gonna be one terrible bad team if this goes full blown nuclear. Even worse to watch than now, if possible.

Lose Nash? Be careful what you wish for. I still think there is a chance, albeit small, that he stays. I sincerely hope he does.
You know, I almost want to trade Nash for the sole reason of proving that this team can get along just fine without him.

I think Nash's reputation exceeds his actual impact by a wide margin. Now if they started playing him 23 minutes a night in all situations, that opinion of mine might change.

Want to discuss mismanagement of players, add Nash to the top of the list.

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03-20-2012, 02:33 PM
  #34
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You know, I almost want to trade Nash for the sole reason of proving that this team can get along just fine without him.
I'm sure the Blue Jackets COULD survive trading Nash, but I'm not confident that they WOULD. Especially not with the jokers we have calling the shots. What is your definition of "get along fine" and what is the timeframe for that?

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Old
03-20-2012, 03:06 PM
  #35
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Draft Nail Yakupov

to VAN: Juice, Boll, 1st(LA)
to CBJ: Roberto Luongo

to NJD: Steve Mason, 2nd
to CBJ Marek Zidlicky

Sign Olli Jokinen 3 year deal

Re-sign Sanford 1 year deal


Umberger - Jokinen - Nash
Prospal - Johansen - Yakupov
Atkinson - Brassard - Dorsett
Gillies - Letestu - Calvert
Boyce

JMFJ - Wiz
Nikitin - Tyutin
Zidlicky - Methot
Moore

Luongo
Sanford

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Old
03-20-2012, 03:18 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by TimberWoRlfe View Post
Draft Nail Yakupov

to VAN: Juice, Boll, 1st(LA)
to CBJ: Roberto Luongo

to NJD: Steve Mason, 2nd
to CBJ Marek Zidlicky

Sign Olli Jokinen 3 year deal

Re-sign Sanford 1 year deal


Umberger - Jokinen - Nash
Prospal - Johansen - Yakupov
Atkinson - Brassard - Dorsett
Gillies - Letestu - Calvert
Boyce

JMFJ - Wiz
Nikitin - Tyutin
Zidlicky - Methot
Moore

Luongo
Sanford
While that certainly looks better than what we have now, I'd guess there's virtually no chance Luongo would wave his NTC to come here.

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Old
03-20-2012, 03:22 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TimberWoRlfe View Post
Draft Nail Yakupov

to VAN: Juice, Boll, 1st(LA)
to CBJ: Roberto Luongo

to NJD: Steve Mason, 2nd
to CBJ Marek Zidlicky

Sign Olli Jokinen 3 year deal

Re-sign Sanford 1 year deal
Wow.
I've got a pocket knife with one broken blade, a tiger-eye marble and a big hunk of string in my pocket. What can you get me for those?

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Old
03-20-2012, 03:55 PM
  #38
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While that certainly looks better than what we have now, I'd guess there's virtually no chance Luongo would wave his NTC to come here.
Consider the scenario if Luongo struggles in the first round and Vancouver loses. Or just as bad, Luongo struggles and Schneider then carries the team through the playoffs.

I would guess that the sale on torches and pitchforks would be so brisk in Vancouver that he would waive to go just about anywhere. There would be only a couple of teams who could take Luongo and that crazy contract. The Jackets are in such bad shape at that position that it could actually work for them.

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Old
03-20-2012, 04:23 PM
  #39
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I'm sure the Blue Jackets COULD survive trading Nash, but I'm not confident that they WOULD. Especially not with the jokers we have calling the shots. What is your definition of "get along fine" and what is the timeframe for that?
I do not believe the team performance, on-ice or off-ice, will be negatively impacted in any meaningful way. Nor do I think it would negatively impact the amount of time it would take to put a playoff team on ice.

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03-20-2012, 05:02 PM
  #40
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I do not believe the team performance, on-ice or off-ice, will be negatively impacted in any meaningful way. Nor do I think it would negatively impact the amount of time it would take to put a playoff team on ice.
Well, how could a last-place team be negatively impacted in a meaningful way? Without Nash we may lose a few more games here and there but in the grand scheme of things we still are at the bottom of the barrel, regardless.

I agree with the trading Nash comment not negatively affecting the amount of time it will take to put a playoff team together. In fact, if we trade him away for junk and get a top 2 pick again next season we'll likely be closer to being a playoff team.

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Old
03-20-2012, 05:15 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Derby View Post
You think we are bad now? I have a hard time even contemplating this team without Nash. A lot of Nash haters out there, I guess, but watching him play for the CBJ has been the difference most nights for this fan.

We are gonna be one terrible bad team if this goes full blown nuclear. Even worse to watch than now, if possible.

Lose Nash? Be careful what you wish for. I still think there is a chance, albeit small, that he stays. I sincerely hope he does.

If this team didn't have Nash, they might finish in last place overall! How much worse can they get?

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Old
03-20-2012, 05:47 PM
  #42
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If this team didn't have Nash, they might finish in last place overall! How much worse can they get?
If the current team didn't have Nash, they'd be bad beyond even the current depths of awful, they'd be historically bad. The question I prefer, though, is what can the team look like next year with what we get in return for Nash?

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Old
03-20-2012, 08:29 PM
  #43
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Fragility or simply poor chemistry?
Both. I've said repeatedly Howson has done a poor job with factoring in chemistry. This is the guy who threw Moreau and Clark at the wall to see if they solved the leadership problem simply because they were Captain's elsewhere. Reality is that what type of leader works sometimes depends on the group being led--you wouldn't pick General Patton to lead a Girl Scout troop. I don't think chemistry was factored in when Wiz was acquired either--I never thought Tyutin was ideal as his defensive partner and yet that was the initial plan.

But this issue also manifests itself as a depth issue if you don't have some utility players that can fill a spot when someone goes down. Look at how this defense has looked since the Tyutin injury--not so hot. We don't have a guy to step in and be serviceable paired with Tyutin. Not sure we have someone serviceable to pair with Wiz if JJ were to go down. Etc.

Bottom line, the defense still needs work so that if an injury occurs the team isn't completely SOL and, personally, I'd consider overhauling it further over time even if not this off-season. I like the JJ and Wiz pair as a starting point and, notwithstanding their struggles, I think Savard and Moore have potential. Methot shouldn't be a part of the team going forward (that contract was a mistake) and I'd argue we can do better than Tyutin with that kind of cap hit. As such, I wouldn't be afraid to use the likes of Methot and Tyutin as bait for help at forward so long as part of the haul in a Nash trade (or a trade of the #1 pick) is a top defender.

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Old
03-20-2012, 08:30 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
If the current team didn't have Nash, they'd be bad beyond even the current depths of awful, they'd be historically bad. The question I prefer, though, is what can the team look like next year with what we get in return for Nash?
If that is all that is changed, moderately worse than the current team because the short term result of the Nash trade will be a decrease in offensive talent.

The question is what else is acquired in the off-season to off-set that.

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03-20-2012, 08:45 PM
  #45
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Both. I've said repeatedly Howson has done a poor job with factoring in chemistry. This is the guy who threw Moreau and Clark at the wall to see if they solved the leadership problem simply because they were Captain's elsewhere. Reality is that what type of leader works sometimes depends on the group being led--you wouldn't pick General Patton to lead a Girl Scout troop. I don't think chemistry was factored in when Wiz was acquired either--I never thought Tyutin was ideal as his defensive partner and yet that was the initial plan.
I was REALLY hoping to find the old Johnny Carson clip where he does the famous opening speech from "Patton", ending with the camera panning out and the realization that he's firing up a Girl Scout troop to go sell as many cookies as possible. And judging from how quickly they moved, he did a great job of motivating them.

Chemistry is something that may or may not be possible to determine beforehand, particularly with defensive pairings. Even then it's an issue of trying to strike a balance. When Scott Niedermayer (a longtime favorite of mine) first joined the Devils, Herb Brooks paired him with Scott Stevens and loved the dual threat. Niedermayer could join the rush and Stevens would cover. When Jacques Lemaire took over, he paired Bruce Driver with Stevens and then had Ken Daneyko with Niedermayer. It gave opposing forwards more headaches because the pairs weren't so top-heavy.

Of course, the job of the GM is to acquire the talent, and the job of the coach is to develop talent and chemistry. That's the biggest difference between Hitchcock and Arniel, and this year between Davis Payne and Hitchcock. I'd argue that failure to develop chemistry and properly prepare players for the game is what can make excellent tacticians poor coaches, and what can make average tacticians excellent coaches. My favorite comparison is that between (college football, now) Bill Snyder at Kansas State and Bill Callahan at Nebraska. Few people in the world of football know more than Callahan, and his reign was a complete disaster. Bill Snyder, from everything I've ever heard, isn't a great tactician and seems to struggle with basic points, but Kansas State became an excellent program under his watch. And when Ron Turner was ineffective after Snyder's retirement, Snyder returned and took those same players and put that team right back near the top of the conference. Or to back up just a year ago, look at the Devils under John MacLean compared to Lemaire.

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Old
03-21-2012, 01:06 PM
  #46
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Of course, the job of the GM is to acquire the talent, and the job of the coach is to develop talent and chemistry. That's the biggest difference between Hitchcock and Arniel, and this year between Davis Payne and Hitchcock. I'd argue that failure to develop chemistry and properly prepare players for the game is what can make excellent tacticians poor coaches, and what can make average tacticians excellent coaches. My favorite comparison is that between (college football, now) Bill Snyder at Kansas State and Bill Callahan at Nebraska. Few people in the world of football know more than Callahan, and his reign was a complete disaster. Bill Snyder, from everything I've ever heard, isn't a great tactician and seems to struggle with basic points, but Kansas State became an excellent program under his watch. And when Ron Turner was ineffective after Snyder's retirement, Snyder returned and took those same players and put that team right back near the top of the conference. Or to back up just a year ago, look at the Devils under John MacLean compared to Lemaire.
Good post, dead on. We have the ingredients to make something good on this team, with a few adjustments (namely goaltending). The trick is to find the chef (coach) that can cook with these ingredients.

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Old
03-21-2012, 01:15 PM
  #47
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No, we don't.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:01 PM
  #48
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Of course, the job of the GM is to acquire the talent, and the job of the coach is to develop talent and chemistry. That's the biggest difference between Hitchcock and Arniel, and this year between Davis Payne and Hitchcock. I'd argue that failure to develop chemistry and properly prepare players for the game is what can make excellent tacticians poor coaches, and what can make average tacticians excellent coaches. My favorite comparison is that between (college football, now) Bill Snyder at Kansas State and Bill Callahan at Nebraska. Few people in the world of football know more than Callahan, and his reign was a complete disaster. Bill Snyder, from everything I've ever heard, isn't a great tactician and seems to struggle with basic points, but Kansas State became an excellent program under his watch. And when Ron Turner was ineffective after Snyder's retirement, Snyder returned and took those same players and put that team right back near the top of the conference. Or to back up just a year ago, look at the Devils under John MacLean compared to Lemaire.
I'm not sure I agree. Chemistry isn't something that can be forced. Many players have had one great season on a line that worked, gone out and got a big UFA contract and never replicated it with new linemates. The trick as a GM is to really get a sense of what a player's skills are to do your best to figure out where a player fits. At the extremes, you wouldn't acquire Marc Andre Bergeron as a shutdown defensemen or Samuel Pahlsson as your first line center.

Honestly the Blues are a team in some ways that is tailor made for Ken Hitchcock. Backes, Perron, Stewart, Arnott, Langenbrunner, Pollack, Jackman--these are the types of players I'd expect to do well on a Hitchcock coached team. By contrast, we saw Hitchcock struggle here when he and his GM diverged on the direction of the team further aided by Mike Priest's decision that it was better for guys like Commodore to eat donuts and bet the ponies in the off-season than train. Hitchcock didn't change as a coach during his time here and this was part of his downfall. But the other part of the equation was Howson's failure to give Hitchcock a roster that he was capable of coaching.

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Old
03-21-2012, 03:17 PM
  #49
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Both. I've said repeatedly Howson has done a poor job with factoring in chemistry. This is the guy who threw Moreau and Clark at the wall to see if they solved the leadership problem simply because they were Captain's elsewhere.
Perhaps that additional "leadership" was just enough to prevent the epic collapse that we witnessed this year. I get the feeling all we did the last three years is manage our own decline.

There is a problem when you allow those that managed your decline to stay in power.

At any rate this is the wrong thread for this discussion.

To the original topic.

1. Free up cap room while acquiring assets. This includes trading the captain and, if possible, RJ. Trade Methot.
3. UFA's. Sign MacKenzie and Boyce to a two year deal. Investigate what it would take to bring back Juice on a two year deal. If it's Prospal or less, bring him back. AJ is gone. Lebda, depends on what is available in the FA market for a #7 D. Russell to a two-way deal.
4. RFA's. Dorse to a three year deal. Boll to a two year deal. Nikitin to a two year deal.
5. Sign Sanford to a two year deal as the backup. Acquire a starting goal tender. Send Mason to the AHL.
6. Listen to offers for Tyutin and Brassard.

Roster makeup of "keepers".

Prospal/Huselius - xxxx - xxxx (2.5 Cap)
Huselius/Prospal - Johansen - Atkinson (5.25 Cap)
Gillies - Letestu - Dorsett (2.5 - 3.0 Cap)
Boll/Calvert - MacKenzie - Boll/Kubalik (2.0 Cap or so)
Boyce (13th forward)

JMJF - xxxx (4.3 Cap)
Wiz - Nikitin (7.5 - 8.0 Cap)
Moore - Savard/Golo/FA (2 - 3 Cap hit)
1 mill cap or less for 7th D

xxxx
Sanford (1 - 1.5 Cap hit)

Around 13 million on Forwards
Around 15.5 million on Defense
Around 1.5 on backup Goal Tender

30 million entering FA, depending on what we get back for traded assets. Return assets could impact other signings on the team or dictate other moves.

Forwards I would consider on the FA Market, realizing there is little chance of any of them.

Jones, Boyes, Stoll, Kostitsyn, Hudler, Kelly

Defense, same conditions.

I would throw the farm at Suter. Carle, Oduya, Jackman, O'Brien, Lundin

Goaltenders - Vokoun, Harding

My preference would be on acquiring forwards and goaltender via trade, defense via FA.

There is your "reshape". I would consider next year a transitional year. I would not be opposed to throwing Nail to the wolves if that situation became a reality. My primary focus would be on goal tending and defense. I would get as much NHL depth as possible on the blue line. That could mean signing 3 defensemen.

Oh, one important note. My target for cap hit would be around 52 million.


Last edited by blahblah: 03-21-2012 at 03:28 PM.
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03-21-2012, 03:47 PM
  #50
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My rebuilding:

1. Trade Umberger, Nash for a good value
2. Give chance youngs
3. Get a new goalie
4. Dorsett to the fourth line.

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