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Leafs fans now chant ‘Fire Burkie'

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Old
03-22-2012, 08:22 AM
  #301
The Management
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Originally Posted by pucky View Post
I guess if it helps you sleep better at night to believe that.
It's easier to point fingers and cry for Burke's termination than it is to realize the problem is more diffuse, and that some (most) of the guys we cheered for earlier this season, night in, night out, haven't been playing up to snuff in the second-half.

Some fans won't be satisfied unless Brian Burke marches out onto the ice and blocks a shot. Sorry to say, he can't score Nik Kulemin's goals for him or make a big save for Reimer in the third period.

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03-22-2012, 08:25 AM
  #302
John-Eric Iannicello
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I'm as dissatisfied and disgusted with this season as anyone, so much so that I can barely bring myself to turn on a Leafs' game lately.

But I cannot understand pinning this on Brian Burke.
I agree with you for the most part. When problems like this happen ('this' being how the season turned over) it's hard to pin the blame on just one person.

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He wasn't exactly given an optimal situation to work with when he came to Toronto (our previous core being locked into no-trade-clauses), and he preached patience the moment he stepped into the management position. Frankly, this team was going off the rails with or without Brian Buke, and everyone in the hockey world knew Big Blue was due for an overhaul, much like how folks seem to (generally) agree that Calgary and Montreal are liable for a change in vision. Would you rather have Gauthier at the helm? I sure wouldn't. How about Calgary's management? No thanks.
He preached patience, but it's hard to preach that and then make the Kessel deal. Not only that, but come out and say I don't want a 5 year rebuild. So there's patience to turn it around, but then there's moves made that negate that in certain ways. I know he's sort of tried to shuffle sideways with the team a bit (acquiring players for the now and for the future at the same time - trying to be competitive).

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As for the roster itself, he brought in players with proven track-records to establish a reasonably competitive core...

And therein lies the unmitigated disaster that is the current Toronto Maple Leafs. Players underperforming: Kulemin has been ice cold all year, Schenn has struggled, Grabovski only really elevated his game in the second half, MacArthur came back down to earth... Both goalies have struggled, despite Reimer's show-stopping performance last year. Connolly has not played like the top-six center we brought him in to be, Lombardi and Armstrong have brought mixed qualities at best, and Phaneuf has been all over the place... and we blame the GM? No, finger-pointing requires we first look to the coach. And to be fair, the system might've had a lot to do with it: run-and-gun small bodied forwards and a big defense with an average to below-average transition game. There were asymmetries in the system implemented by the coach - a coach, by the way, that had an impressive work history before Brian Burke hired him.
Yeah I don't think many expected Kuelmin to drop off so much this year. MacArthur, I'm not too sure about. I mean, he's OK in a depth scoring role - but many people around here were saying to trade him last season ('sell high'). I don't know the exact stat, but I remember him fading really fast down the stretch when the team needed his offense. I understand why they didn't trade him (because of the lines cohesiveness), but those are the gambles you make/don't that potentially hurt you. When it's a team that's been in the bottom-10 for the past few seasons I'd rather risk the trade. I mean, at the end of the day MacArthur isn't the biggest issue anyways so it's not a big deal.

Burke really should have anticipate the Reimer issue in this market. You can't go into a season after the types of seasons this team has had, and really pin the hopes on a goaltender with X amount of games experience. Not only that, but when you have a UFA goaltender like Gustavsson who came over to make a name for himself in the NHL I don't know how that's a healthy tandem for a young goalie like Reimer. You need someone to give you guidance, to settle you down if you have a bad game. I don't think Gustavsson is that type. Heck, I think Gustavsson needs that type too. To allow a tandem where one guy really needs his next NHL contract probably doesn't build the best tandem relationship. This isn't a normal goaltending case where it's a UFA who's been in the NHL for years and is just starting to 'slow down'. Gustavsson's leash is extremely short for an NHL future and he probably knows this too.

I do think you are spot on with the system.

The team is in a state of flux where it has players that Burke brought in primarily to play that 'tough, truculent style' (i.e. the Komisarek's, Armstrong's, Brown's, Beauchemin's) and then that wasn't working out under Wilson's system. Then it came out that Wilson didn't like that tough, truculent style and was more run-and-gun. So Burke goes out and acquires more puck-moving/quicker types to compliment the system (Lombardi's, Franson's, Lebda's, Connolly's, MacArthur's) and then Wilson is fired, Carlyle's brought in and he's the guy now who wants to play that truculent style..well now you just have too much of a mix/mash of players who don't really compliment each other or the new system. Perhaps that's where off-season house cleaning will come in. People want the big names, and this team needs them no doubt, but at the same time you need players who can fit the system properly. That makes a dramatic change on any team. No more square peg/round hole mentality.

I remember Beauchemin being a specific player in his first year that really had to adjust his game to fit Wilson's style - I think Burke even said as much when people were getting on him for pinching/jumping up offensively at the wrong times. Burke said something along the lines of that not being Beauchemin's game and he has to adapt to the new style. IMO that's the wrong thing to do. Don't bring players in at 30+yrs and expect them to change their game that's made them successful NHL players. Bring in players that suit your teams/coaches philosophy. Now he's playing very well for Anaheim (as much as I heard - don't follow closely enough to make my own opinion) so where was the real issue?

PS: I think it's very strange that when Wilson was fired it came out that he didn't like to play the style Burke wanted. Well then why didn't Burke fire him sooner? Why did he bring in those players without consulting Wilson? Seems there was a disconnect between the coach and GM there - which doesn't help your team.

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03-22-2012, 08:33 AM
  #303
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Everybody in Leafs nation said they needed a full rebuild and were ready for it, Burke came in and said instead of a new foundation I'm just going to replace the windows and redo the siding and that should be good enough.

Now it's tough. I think a new GM is needed just to come in with a clean slate and be real. Just press reset.

- We may lose Kessel in 2 years and the fan base has not embraced him, let's deal him and get some draft picks.
- I need a legit #1 goalie
- My top priority is a #1 Center
- I need a coach that can teach kids and be patient, like a Jacques Martin
- I'm buying out Komiserek.

Burke is to stubborn to admit he was wrong and only did when he traded Versteeg (poor move) Wilson should of been gone last summer but Burke gave him a raise.

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03-22-2012, 08:49 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by John-Eric Iannicello View Post
He preached patience, but it's hard to preach that and then make the Kessel deal.
I don't see how trading for a 21 year old and signing him for 5 years is supposed to be a win-now move.

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03-22-2012, 08:53 AM
  #305
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I don't see how trading for a 21 year old and signing him for 5 years is supposed to be a win-now move.
So Burke acquired Phil Kessel to win in only the 4th and 5th year of Kessel's contract? Keep rationalizing.

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03-22-2012, 08:57 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by JesseV87 View Post
I don't see how trading for a 21 year old and signing him for 5 years is supposed to be a win-now move.
Its not necessarily win-now, but it certainly lacks the patience you would need to not mke the move.

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03-22-2012, 08:57 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by The Management View Post
It's easier to point fingers and cry for Burke's termination than it is to realize the problem is more diffuse, and that some (most) of the guys we cheered for earlier this season, night in, night out, haven't been playing up to snuff in the second-half.

Some fans won't be satisfied unless Brian Burke marches out onto the ice and blocks a shot. Sorry to say, he can't score Nik Kulemin's goals for him or make a big save for Reimer in the third period.
But the GM is ultimately responsible for bringing in the players or re-signing the ones he inherited. After 4 years this is 100% "his" team.

So he's either miscalculated their talent, miscalculated their character, miscalculated the team's needs, or not created the right environment or system for them to succeed. Blame the players all you want, but they are, at the end of the day, "his" players and the ultimate responsibility lies with him.

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03-22-2012, 09:00 AM
  #308
John-Eric Iannicello
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Originally Posted by JesseV87 View Post
I don't see how trading for a 21 year old and signing him for 5 years is supposed to be a win-now move.
It's certainly more of a move that screams 'win now' than waiting on a draft pick(s).

I'm not trashing Burke for making that move (the pick could have landed anywhere) - it was a risk and it hasn't exactly worked out for the team. It's worked out in terms of Kessel's individual success - he's continued to become a more dangerous player in each season he's been here, but it hasn't brought us to where Burke had intended to be at this time. That's not on Kessel though.

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03-22-2012, 09:07 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by JesseV87 View Post
I don't see how trading for a 21 year old and signing him for 5 years is supposed to be a win-now move.
We were like an expansion franchise. We had exactly one building block (Schenn) but other than that the cupboard was pretty bare. Many people were kind of iffy on the Kadri selection. Burke didn't have to go out and sign Komisarek and Beauchemin in his first offseason, when the foundation for sustainability (the core) was not in place. If RFA Kessel was offered to an expansion team they would say he's a good, young player, but that's just too much to give up. He's a damn good complementary sniper, but that's just too high a price. We would entertain it for one 1st round pick, but even then not we're not sold, because that pick(s) could turn out to be a franchise player or maybe two good complementary players. It just makes no sense for a team to do that at the beginning of a rebuild, when the foundation was not there and when the cupboard was empty.

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03-22-2012, 09:10 AM
  #310
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I think the trade was premature, but he's a good asset.

Kulemin was the key flop this year. With his cold hands, bad luck, and situation his line was not very good for most of the season and although Kessel's line scored it needed support from Kulemin.

Additionally, there is very little support scoring. The team lacks quality depth, and lacks skilled prospects who are demanding of playing time.

The teams appears to have little leadership on the ice.

When you look at the squad what name jumps out at you saying winner?

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03-22-2012, 09:10 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by John-Eric Iannicello View Post
It's certainly more of a move that screams 'win now' than waiting on a draft pick(s).

I'm not trashing Burke for making that move (the pick could have landed anywhere) - it was a risk and it hasn't exactly worked out for the team. It's worked out in terms of Kessel's individual success - he's continued to become a more dangerous player in each season he's been here, but it hasn't brought us to where Burke had intended to be at this time. That's not on Kessel though.
It definetely is not on Kessel, he had character issues before he came here and that is why Boston traded a 20 year old with so much skill.

If you missed the playoffs and your team has significantly improved, and you trade away two 1st and a 2nd - you better be trading for a player who is more then just a sniper, you want leadership, a future Captain, somebody who is good in the Toronto market, big and tough and probably at #1 D or a #1 Center - wingers aren't building blocks they are the final pieces.

Kessel is not to blame, Burke is.

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03-22-2012, 09:29 AM
  #312
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This whole mess is all Burke. This team is Burkes team, the management team is Burkes, scouting and everything. If he didn't like Wilson's style then his reluctance to deal with it earlier is all him as well, then throw on the extension.

Since Burke has come to town he has blown off his mouth on every occasion, picked fights with any media member that even questioned him. Every FA signing has been a bust. The Kessel deal was a disaster. Going into the year with two young goalies was a disaster. When this team was winning they still had the highest GA of any team that was in the playoffs, should have been a warning sign long ago. He said last year that picking up a vet goalie would be easy, wasn't all that easy.

My opinion. He needs to go, sooner rather than later. We had the perfect candidate here in Joe Niewendyk and we let him go. The quiet cerebral type that thinks out situations and doesn't blow off in the media. A GM that FA's respect and can talk to. A former Stanley Cup Winner with three different organizations and a local product. We had it and we let it go again.

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03-22-2012, 09:35 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
This whole mess is all Burke. This team is Burkes team, the management team is Burkes, scouting and everything. If he didn't like Wilson's style then his reluctance to deal with it earlier is all him as well, then throw on the extension.

Since Burke has come to town he has blown off his mouth on every occasion, picked fights with any media member that even questioned him. Every FA signing has been a bust. The Kessel deal was a disaster. Going into the year with two young goalies was a disaster. When this team was winning they still had the highest GA of any team that was in the playoffs, should have been a warning sign long ago. He said last year that picking up a vet goalie would be easy, wasn't all that easy.

My opinion. He needs to go, sooner rather than later. We had the perfect candidate here in Joe Niewendyk and we let him go. The quiet cerebral type that thinks out situations and doesn't blow off in the media. A GM that FA's respect and can talk to. A former Stanley Cup Winner with three different organizations and a local product. We had it and we let it go again.
well said!

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03-22-2012, 09:37 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
This whole mess is all Burke. This team is Burkes team, the management team is Burkes, scouting and everything. If he didn't like Wilson's style then his reluctance to deal with it earlier is all him as well, then throw on the extension.

Since Burke has come to town he has blown off his mouth on every occasion, picked fights with any media member that even questioned him. Every FA signing has been a bust. The Kessel deal was a disaster. Going into the year with two young goalies was a disaster. When this team was winning they still had the highest GA of any team that was in the playoffs, should have been a warning sign long ago. He said last year that picking up a vet goalie would be easy, wasn't all that easy.

My opinion. He needs to go, sooner rather than later. We had the perfect candidate here in Joe Niewendyk and we let him go. The quiet cerebral type that thinks out situations and doesn't blow off in the media. A GM that FA's respect and can talk to. A former Stanley Cup Winner with three different organizations and a local product. We had it and we let it go again.
I agree, Burke mad his bed, now will his bosses please make him lie in it!

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03-22-2012, 09:55 AM
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I agree, Burke mad his bed, now will his bosses please make him lie in it!
He's here until Rogers/Bell take over in June. I think he needs to go but he will have 1 more year at least. I like Burke but 4 years with no results and no elite talent besides Kessel is very troubling.

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03-22-2012, 10:21 AM
  #316
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So Burke acquired Phil Kessel to win in only the 4th and 5th year of Kessel's contract? Keep rationalizing.
So Phil is guaranteed to leave after 5 years? Keep speculating.

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03-22-2012, 10:30 AM
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It's worked out in terms of Kessel's individual success - he's continued to become a more dangerous player in each season he's been here, but it hasn't brought us to where Burke had intended to be at this time.
And where would we be now without making the Kessel trade? We'd have Seguin putting up inferior numbers to Kessel, and an extra prospect in Dougie Hamilton 2-3 years away from making any sort of contribution to the team. We'd still suck, and people would still be calling for Burke's head. So no I don't think the Kessel trade is the reason he should be fired, hell I don't think he should be fired at all, but if people want to cite anything it should be that in 3 years he hasn't managed to surround Kessel with the right personnel.

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03-22-2012, 10:41 AM
  #318
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I don't see how trading for a 21 year old and signing him for 5 years is supposed to be a win-now move.
Burke traded for a player coming off of a 36 goal 60 point season. He brought instant goals overnight and delivered 3 straight 30 or more goal season and was Leafs best player upon arrival.

You don't bring in that kind of player during a rebuild if the goal isn't to win-now. Look at it the other way around a team certainly doesn't need to trade multiple 1st round picks in order to finish 29th overall. You can finish at the league bottom without the need for a 30 goal scorer in your immediate line-up. Heck you didn't even need to fire GM JFJ and hire Burke to finish 2nd last overall.

If you want to suggest that because of Kessel's age the deal was done intended to win-now + win-later, not just for the present, than you would have few that would disagree that it had short and long term intended benefits.

The reason the "fire Burke" chant bell is ringing is because of the teams poor results in the standings, and Kessel's production is doing very little to change any of that.

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03-22-2012, 10:41 AM
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Just an observation, but if Burke was fired, I'm thinking Nonis would be appointed GM? Shades of Vancouver. How would Nonis fair? I understand part of the reason he was fired as GM was he was almost the opposite of Burke-he never tried to make "BIG" moves, but rather was the "slow and steady" type (though wasn't he the one who got Lou from Florida?).

I almost see a combination of Van and a bit of Anaheim (only in Burke's case it would be someone else coming in and "putting a few pieces in")-and Like the Murray/Burke debate in Anaheim, it would be Burke/Nonis (or whoever if Nonis was fired) debate.

Interesting other note, Burke signed Carlyle for 3 more years-wouldn't that be when Burke ends as well? Seems determined to make sure that if Burke doesn't resign, Carlyle would be gone at same time.

My final thought, if Toronto starts with a "clean slate" and a GM DID do a total rebuild, would Toronto fans in general tolerate ANOTHER 5 years (which would make it 12-13 years without a playoff?

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03-22-2012, 10:52 AM
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Just an observation, but if Burke was fired, I'm thinking Nonis would be appointed GM? Shades of Vancouver. How would Nonis fair? I understand part of the reason he was fired as GM was he was almost the opposite of Burke-he never tried to make "BIG" moves, but rather was the "slow and steady" type (though wasn't he the one who got Lou from Florida?).
If history repeated itself and Burke was fired and Nonis was his replacement than the first thing Nonis would likely do is seek out a #1 goalie, just like he did with Lou, and Leafs would be better instantly for it, just like Vancouver was.

Ferguson and Burke's firings would parallel each other on the simple fact that neither GM was able to bring in competent experienced goaltending required to make the playoffs.

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03-22-2012, 10:56 AM
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If history repeated itself and Burke was fired and Nonis was his replacement than the first thing Nonis would likely do is seek out a #1 goalie, just like he did with Lou, and Leafs would be better instantly for it, just like Vancouver was.

Ferguson and Burke's firings would parallel each other on the simple fact that neither GM was able to bring in competent experienced goaltending required to make the playoffs.
Luongo fell into Nonis' lap despite your efforts to paint the acquisition as a talent that Burke and Ferguson didn't have.

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03-22-2012, 10:58 AM
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I guess if it helps you sleep better at night to believe that.
Yes, seeing the whole picture requires the entire brain and therefore makes me sleepy which is probably why you don't do it.

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03-22-2012, 11:02 AM
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If history repeated itself and Burke was fired and Nonis was his replacement than the first thing Nonis would likely do is seek out a #1 goalie, just like he did with Lou, and Leafs would be better instantly for it, just like Vancouver was.

Ferguson and Burke's firings would parallel each other on the simple fact that neither GM was able to bring in competent experienced goaltending required to make the playoffs.
What makes you think Nonis doesn't already a large influence on the team's direction? I highly doubt for the last 3 years Nonis has been recommending a #1 goalie only for Burke to promply tell him to **** and go back to his corner.

Luongo was a complete gift.

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03-22-2012, 11:11 AM
  #324
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Luongo fell into Nonis' lap despite your efforts to paint the acquisition as a talent that Burke and Ferguson didn't have.
Same thing can be said of Pronger AND Neidermeyer in Anaheim

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03-22-2012, 11:14 AM
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Same thing can be said of Pronger AND Neidermeyer in Anaheim
What does that have to do with anything? I think most people would agree Brian Murray was responsible for most of that team, Burke added those 2 guys and some other pieces.

Burke and Nonis were also responsible for most of Vancouver. It just so happens in both cases the GM's were fired before the fruits of their labour were realized. In both cases the rebuilds took a hell of a long time.

It's nice to know that Toronto is learning from history.

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