Good progression because the first year was so poor , he never should have been in the NHL his first year imo.
IMO Scheifele would easily have had more than 6 goals if he was kept up with the big club . He was sent down for a reason , for his best interests and that of the team. Short term pain for long term gain. You can be a huge fan and want the best for a player and not feel the need to not be honest with on ice evaluations.
You're mistaking a comment on his progression with me thinking that he should have been in the NHL last year. I agree with you - he shouldn't have been. Not much we can do to change that now, and we can't send him down to the AHL for seasoning during the IceCaps playoff run. As Yoda would say: "Words in my mouth don't put please".
I was also happy to see Scheifele sent back down. I'd be OK with him spending another year in the OHL, to be honest. As a 19 year old, I think he'll be able to make a MUCH larger impact down there, and in the WJC.
Unfortunately, it is what it is with Burmi - I think having him down on the 3rd line, and being pushed to tighten up his defensive responsibilities was probably making the best of a not perfect situation.
His offensive output is very very minimal. To me he has not created plays nor finished them , certainly not to the level that was hoped for or expected. At a lower level of competition he can develop those aspects , get confidence and move his game forward. Work on penetrating tougher areas , get a split second more time to read a play , to see open ice. Thousands of athletes in all sports have developed this way why Burmistrov has a free pass I have no idea. Not all prospects can nor should start immediately at the highest level they aspire to. It may also instill a harder , stronger work ethic.
Again not saying it is a MUST , but if anyone is satisfied and happy with his on ice performance and accepts that as where they want him to be , then we vehemently disagree. I don't think spending pick 8 equates to a third line forward. To justify his selection as a success he will have to dramatically improve his on ice play , imvho.
What is the best way for him to do that? Is it to keep playing at the NHL level? perhaps , but to date I would have to say it hasn't been. A stint in the minors isn't a divorce , it is a step in a progressive development plan.
Taking a step to dominating on ice time , realizing offensive production , achieving distribution skills can indeed come from playing at a lower level. Not every player is good enough to step in right away and from all I have seen Burmistrov wasn't . We can't go back and change that , but going forward moves certainly can be made for the best interests of the player and the team . I belief a stint in the AHL would let him develop skills the Jets want and need from him , and I do think that occurs more quickly than in the NHL. He could elevate his game much like so many other athletes have done at one step below the highest level in their sport , then take that and apply that at the NHL level.
You're saying his output is very minimal yet he is 74th in league scoring for centres. That puts him at the upper end of #3C's in the league. For a guy who's only recently turned 20 years old, in his second season, and is also counted on to be one of our primary penalty killers, I think that is pretty good.
As for sending him down to the AHL at this point I don't believe that it would have the desired affect.
From Sweech's post:
"I do believe Burmi would be the huge #1 guy for the Ice Caps if he was sent down, but I think it would have the opposite effect on him that we want. Lets face it the AHL is mostly filled with grinders and Burmistrov could dipsy-doodle his way to success down in the AHL. He could also continue playing his perimeter game and rack up a ton of points. This is what I think his downfall would be as I think it would only continue to breed his bad habits if he were to be sent down."
If Burmistrov was buried on our roster and getting 5 minutes a game I would be on board with sending him to the AHL to get 20 minutes a night. The fact that he is already getting 17 minutes a night in the NHL does not give me any indication that sending him to the AHL will somehow speed up his development.
I do agree with you that it would have been better for him to remain in junior last year, but that can't be changed.
You're saying his output is very minimal yet he is 74th in league scoring for centres. That puts him at the upper end of #3C's in the league. For a guy who's only recently turned 20 years old, in his second season, and is also counted on to be one of our primary penalty killers, I think that is pretty good.
As for sending him down to the AHL at this point I don't believe that it would have the desired affect.
From Sweech's post:
"I do believe Burmi would be the huge #1 guy for the Ice Caps if he was sent down, but I think it would have the opposite effect on him that we want. Lets face it the AHL is mostly filled with grinders and Burmistrov could dipsy-doodle his way to success down in the AHL. He could also continue playing his perimeter game and rack up a ton of points. This is what I think his downfall would be as I think it would only continue to breed his bad habits if he were to be sent down."
If Burmistrov was buried on our roster and getting 5 minutes a game I would be on board with sending him to the AHL to get 20 minutes a night. The fact that he is already getting 17 minutes a night in the NHL does not give me any indication that sending him to the AHL will somehow speed up his development.
I do agree with you that it would have been better for him to remain in junior last year, but that can't be changed.
This is my sentiment to a T. Pulled those stats myself for an earlier post. Again, i don't know what kind of offensive dynamo we're expecting? No one disagrees that he would have been better served in juniors but alas he wasn't sent down. Now he's in the show and in the top 75 centers in the league. That is pretty good.
To jetkarma:
I think you have an unrealistic idea of how hockey players progress. Most rookies and sophomores do not immediately put up 40+ point campaigns, the truly special ones do.
This is beyond development strategies, it's about appropriate expectations. As stated previously, Datsyuk, at 23 (ie: 3 years older then Burmi), played through the minors, was brought along slowly and guess what? he put up comparable figures to Burmi this year (with an extra three years of that instant elixir of progression "the minors"!).
You seem to think that he needs to be playing like one of the top 50 players in the league to even be allowed in. How in the hell are you ever going to build a hockey team if that's your expectation?
You're saying his output is very minimal yet he is 74th in league scoring for centres. That puts him at the upper end of #3C's in the league. For a guy who's only recently turned 20 years old, in his second season, and is also counted on to be one of our primary penalty killers, I think that is pretty good.
As for sending him down to the AHL at this point I don't believe that it would have the desired affect.
From Sweech's post:
"I do believe Burmi would be the huge #1 guy for the Ice Caps if he was sent down, but I think it would have the opposite effect on him that we want. Lets face it the AHL is mostly filled with grinders and Burmistrov could dipsy-doodle his way to success down in the AHL. He could also continue playing his perimeter game and rack up a ton of points. This is what I think his downfall would be as I think it would only continue to breed his bad habits if he were to be sent down."
If Burmistrov was buried on our roster and getting 5 minutes a game I would be on board with sending him to the AHL to get 20 minutes a night. The fact that he is already getting 17 minutes a night in the NHL does not give me any indication that sending him to the AHL will somehow speed up his development.
I do agree with you that it would have been better for him to remain in junior last year, but that can't be changed.
We'll agree to disagree then . I do not at all see above average offensive production or upper end anything to be frank , at this point.
[mod edit] Burmistrov needs development at the A level , his standard is if you aren't top 5 ( roughly) as an underager or very very young player ( Burmistrov) then you don't elevate that player to a higher level. That is what has happened to Burmistrov and the on ice progression just has not been there to warrant that.
Last edited by Brogosian: 03-23-2012 at 11:38 PM.
Reason: If you aren't going to reveal and confirm your source you cannot use it in an argument.
This is my sentiment to a T. Pulled those stats myself for an earlier post. Again, i don't know what kind of offensive dynamo we're expecting? No one disagrees that he would have been better served in juniors but alas he wasn't sent down. Now he's in the show and in the top 75 centers in the league. That is pretty good.
To jetkarma:
I think you have an unrealistic idea of how hockey players progress. Most rookies and sophomores do not immediately put up 40+ point campaigns, the truly special ones do.
This is beyond development strategies, it's about appropriate expectations. As stated previously, Datsyuk, at 23 (ie: 3 years older then Burmi), played through the minors, was brought along slowly and guess what? he put up comparable figures to Burmi this year (with an extra three years of that instant elixir of progression "the minors"!).
You seem to think that he needs to be playing like one of the top 50 players in the league to even be allowed in. How in the hell are you ever going to build a hockey team if that's your expectation?
I have a very realistic expectation level from being involved in the game for a long time , and with young players that have developed to professional levels.
It is about development not statistics and that is the point you are choosing to dismiss. If you feel and you obviously do , that this method is going to provide the best return for both the player and the team , great. We will see , of course if he never pans out as being worth the selection , it is easy to say it would not have made a difference regardless of how he was handled , developed and nurtured. I disagree , delayed gratification , great organizations follow that to their and their players benefit.
As I have mentioned it is unlikely he may go down , that doesn't mean he shouldn't for the best long term results. I am looking forward to a a good season next year from him , if it happens , it will be his first and that is not right regardless of what youmay think , he simply has not yet had a good season in the NHL.
We'll agree to disagree then . I do not at all see above average offensive production or upper end anything to be frank , at this point.
[mod edit] Burmistrov needs development at the A level , his standard is if you aren't top 5 ( roughly) as an underager or very very young player ( Burmistrov) then you don't elevate that player to a higher level. That is what has happened to Burmistrov and the on ice progression just has not been there to warrant that.
I agree that the best thing for Burmistrov might have been to stay in the CHL for at least one more season, maybe two. But we are beyond that, so it's pointless to speculate on that now.
The idea is to decide what the best interest is in developing Burmistrov today. And I have seen no logical argument (besides Holden's), that would lead me to believe that a player that is already getting close to 17 minutes a night in the NHL would be better served going to the AHL to develop.
There are two separate ideas going on here.
1) How prospects "should" be handled and how they "should" progress through an org.
And
2) What should be done with Burmistrov now, or more importantly next season as he can't go down now.
I'm not disagreeing with you regarding point number 1. IMO, Burmistrov was rushed, and more time in developmental leagues (CHL, maybe AHL) might have been more beneficial.
It's number two where I still can't see a reason to send him down at this point.
I agree with Grind. I think your expectations are not realistic.
Now Nino Niederreiter, the guy drafted 3 spots ahead of Burmistrov, there's a guy that needs more time in the AHL. The guys a -24 and has 1 point in 48 games. Burmistrov is +5 on a team that has given up more goals then they have scored and has 28 points.
Last edited by Brogosian: 03-23-2012 at 11:39 PM.
Reason: qep
I have a very realistic expectation level from being involved in the game for a long time , and with young players that have developed to professional levels.
It is about development not statistics and that is the point you are choosing to dismiss. If you feel and you obviously do , that this method is going to provide the best return for both the player and the team , great. We will see , of course if he never pans out as being worth the selection , it is easy to say it would not have made a difference regardless of how he was handled , developed and nurtured. I disagree , delayed gratification , great organizations follow that to their and their players benefit.As I have mentioned it is unlikely he may go down , that doesn't mean he shouldn't for the best long term results. I am looking forward to a a good season next year from him , if it happens , it will be his first and that is not right regardless of what youmay think , he simply has not yet had a good season in the NHL.
I think I have been on the opposite side of this debate from you but in this post we have found a huge overlap and I find myself agreeing with you. I especially agree with the bold part and I think that is the rub here. I believe Burmi will represent the last of the players in our organization who was on the scrubs program (inside joke with former Thrasher fans). Between Burmi and Scheif is the dividing line and on a go forward basis I believe TNSE will be following the model you laid out of delayed gratification and I love it!! Burmi is the legacy asset who is grandfathered in from the old format and I think he is too far along right now to go back. We have to play it out now and see if he can progress next year. As much as you feel he might have been rushed and you have allot of backers on that point....he is where he is now which is that Alex is in the top 9 in our organization for offensive talent.
Going forward my hope is that we will not need to have this debate on our next prospect and my hopes is that the debate falls on the other side of the spectrum as in "isn't it time for Scheifele to play in the NHL now, he had two extra years in juniors and a transition year in the AHL" then when Mark finally hits the NHL he gets 45 to 55 points in his rookie year and we have him locked up until his 27th birthday
Edit: woosp seem like Huffer and I are overlapping a bit
We'll agree to disagree then . I do not at all see above average offensive production or upper end anything to be frank , at this point.
FWIW a very well known hockey guy ( playing and development ) also feels that Burmistrov needs development at the A level , his standard is if you aren't top 5 ( roughly) as an underager or very very young player ( Burmistrov) then you don't elevate that player to a higher level. That is what has happened to Burmistrov and the on ice progression just has not been there to warrant that.
Who is this very well known hockey guy? You have to be able to identify and confirm the source in order for this comment to stand.
I have a very realistic expectation level from being involved in the game for a long time , and with young players that have developed to professional levels.
It is about development not statistics and that is the point you are choosing to dismiss. If you feel and you obviously do , that this method is going to provide the best return for both the player and the team , great. We will see , of course if he never pans out as being worth the selection , it is easy to say it would not have made a difference regardless of how he was handled , developed and nurtured. I disagree , delayed gratification , great organizations follow that to their and their players benefit.
As I have mentioned it is unlikely he may go down , that doesn't mean he shouldn't for the best long term results. I am looking forward to a a good season next year from him , if it happens , it will be his first and that is not right regardless of what youmay think , he simply has not yet had a good season in the NHL.
I think we're at an impasse, and as you said earlier agree to disagree.
I haven't been disagreeing with you that he shouldn't have been here yet, I just think your being overly critical of a player that has statistically, and in my eyes "intangibly", proved that he can play in this league, and will likely become a great player.
I'm also of the idea that we won't see this anymore, and as one of the others posted, burmi is the "legacy" prospect.
If burmi capps out as permiter third line player, i will eat healthy plate of crow on this debate. But I find it unlikely that if a player at his age, can perform the way he can, being held back primarily by the decisions he makes, that something that can be developed/.
burmistrov seems to slow down when he has the puck and starts to skate east west more with it and ultimately loses it.needs to drive harder with the puck first and back off defenders then he can get more ice and do his stop and go curls and dish it off.
More fuel for the debate today , apparently those that think the AHL is a possibility are not alone , and that includes Jets management.
I agree burmi playing in the AHL isnt a bad idea... I thought he would be waiver eligible but apparently he has 12 games untill that happens so next year he can split time between here and on the Rock
The Big Show on 1290 this morning , reported that 2 sources mentioned the possibility of this for next year for the exact reasons that have been mentioned here.
While it may not happen , Burmistrov certainly can come to camp and leave no decision for the Jets with his on ice play and production , but the possibility is being considered. As it should me imho.
Best long term decision , don't let short term ones cloud those.
More fuel for the debate today , apparently those that think the AHL is a possibility are not alone , and that includes Jets management.
The Jets better be bringing in additional centres that are better than Burmistrov then, because we certainly don't have many on the NHL squad right now, and no one in the AHL.
The Big Show on 1290 this morning , reported that 2 sources mentioned the possibility of this for next year for the exact reasons that have been mentioned here.
While it may not happen , Burmistrov certainly can come to camp and leave no decision for the Jets with his on ice play and production , but the possibility is being considered. As it should me imho.
Best long term decision , don't let short term ones cloud those.
The Jets better be bringing in additional centres that are better than Burmistrov then, because we certainly don't have many on the NHL squad right now, and no one in the AHL.
You would rather not have Burmistrov play some games in the AHL and have him perhaps never reach close to his maximum potential for multiple years than than replace his roster spot for 30 games?
You would rather not have Burmistrov play some games in the AHL and have him perhaps never reach close to his maximum potential for multiple years than than replace his roster spot for 30 games?
First off, you can't guarantee with 100% certainty that by going to the AHL that he will all of a sudden become that player that you want him to be.
If you could give me a 100% ironclad guarantee that if you sent Burmistrov to the AHL for the 1st 30 games that he would come back and be playing at his max potential I would say sure.
But you realize that if Burmistrov is sent to the AHL and the Jets don't replace him with a better player somehow that it's hurting the team right?
That's what I am saying. We've already seen that the Jets need to improve up front for next year. So if Burmistrov is sent down, we need to improve our talent up front, and replace him as well.
Are you willing to sacrifice the success of the team, under the hope that a stint in the AHL will be the cure-all?
First off, you can't guarantee with 100% certainty that by going to the AHL that he will all of a sudden become that player that you want him to be.
If you could give me a 100% ironclad guarantee that if you sent Burmistrov to the AHL for the 1st 30 games that he would come back and be playing at his max potential I would say sure.
But you realize that if Burmistrov is sent to the AHL and the Jets don't replace him with a better player somehow that it's hurting the team right?
That's what I am saying. We've already seen that the Jets need to improve up front for next year. So if Burmistrov is sent down, we need to improve our talent up front, and replace him as well.
Are you willing to sacrifice the success of the team, under the hope that a stint in the AHL will be the cure-all?
You are sharp enough to know there are not guarantees. There are however probabilities and that is what management will base their decision on , as they should. They have lived this , and have a very clear understanding of both the benefits and negatives.
We don't know if Burmistrov being in the minors for a stint hurts the team , it may , it may not. He hasn't scored for what 15 games? Certainly a player like Cormier would not have impacted the outcome of games much less than that , as he is good defensively and better on faceoffs.
Even if you lose in replacing Burmistrov for a stretch , it isn't about the short term and fans better realize that is the mantra of this team. Would I rather players like Burmistrov , Scheifele , Telegin play in the minors or junior and ultimately be better and impact the success of the Jets in a more positive way than have them up in the NHL sooner but not make as much of difference to future wins and losses? Absolutely , and imo so will the management of this team.
This organization is run by people that have had ultimate success at the AHL level , you think they don't see the benefits of that method of development for some players? Vancouver's depth and production didn't just happen .
Perhaps it is just me , but if I have to say I feel Burmistrov substantially improved from the start of this year to now , I can't. He hasn't. Would he have been a better player and able to impact the success of the Jets more if he had played in the AHL? I believe so , but that doesn't matter. What matters is if the management of the Jets believe that for the future. Burmistrov can quell all this by producing next year in training camp and the exhibition season. If he does , no worries , everyone is happy and he stays, if he doesn't the Jets won't be afraid to make the decision they feel is best , imho.
First off, you can't guarantee with 100% certainty that by going to the AHL that he will all of a sudden become that player that you want him to be.
If you could give me a 100% ironclad guarantee that if you sent Burmistrov to the AHL for the 1st 30 games that he would come back and be playing at his max potential I would say sure.
But you realize that if Burmistrov is sent to the AHL and the Jets don't replace him with a better player somehow that it's hurting the team right?
That's what I am saying. We've already seen that the Jets need to improve up front for next year. So if Burmistrov is sent down, we need to improve our talent up front, and replace him as well.
Are you willing to sacrifice the success of the team, under the hope that a stint in the AHL will be the cure-all?
Lawless even said if this team comes back next season and Burmi is the 2nd line center they havent done enough too improve the team... and I agree with that
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