i knew someone would bring up the PPG thing....he's still 3rd on his own team PPG.
to me its not about couturier being better or what degree of ok scheifele has been
to me its about professing to 'build through the draft'...which everyone here has bought hook line and sinker....and then reaching for a player who was an absolute flyer in most educated opinions.
they may luck out and he will be a world beater....they may not....but if their strategy is to gamble on long shot picks at the draft, then we are in for a long and bumpy ride on this old jet plane.
i dont really know where everyone here gets their blind faith in 'true north's player development'.....they havent earned it in any way.
until they do, i will criticise gambling high draft picks when more sure options are available.
i hope mark proves them right in the long run, but i still dont think the strategy is sound practice.
So basically, you ignored everything brought up against your argument and did a bunch of backtracking.
i knew someone would bring up the PPG thing....he's still 3rd on his own team PPG.
to me its not about couturier being better or what degree of ok scheifele has been
to me its about professing to 'build through the draft'...which everyone here has bought hook line and sinker....and then reaching for a player who was an absolute flyer in most educated opinions.
they may luck out and he will be a world beater....they may not....but if their strategy is to gamble on long shot picks at the draft, then we are in for a long and bumpy ride on this old jet plane.
i dont really know where everyone here gets their blind faith in 'true north's player development'.....they havent earned it in any way.
until they do, i will criticise gambling high draft picks when more sure options are available.
i hope mark proves them right in the long run, but i still dont think the strategy is sound practice.
Can you explain why Scheifele is a long shot?
Expected to go mid 1st round, mid 1st rounders aren't usually long shots and he was a riser who played junior B two years prior.
i knew someone would bring up the PPG thing....he's still 3rd on his own team PPG.
to me its not about couturier being better or what degree of ok scheifele has been
to me its about professing to 'build through the draft'...which everyone here has bought hook line and sinker....and then reaching for a player who was an absolute flyer in most educated opinions.
they may luck out and he will be a world beater....they may not....but if their strategy is to gamble on long shot picks at the draft, then we are in for a long and bumpy ride on this old jet plane.
i dont really know where everyone here gets their blind faith in 'true north's player development'.....they havent earned it in any way.
until they do, i will criticise gambling high draft picks when more sure options are available.
i hope mark proves them right in the long run, but i still dont think the strategy is sound practice.
Re; PPG - Your points are still completely irrelevant seeing as he had a great statistical season. You're ragging on the kid for it yet his statistics prove you wrong. If you "knew" someone would bring up the Points Per Game (PPG) argument, why would you make points that are entirely flawed?
Ryan Strome had nearly identical numbers to Scheifele on a much better team this year. I don't think you'll find anyone ragging on Strome using the points you are because Strome didn't put up 106 points like he did last season, or because he placed 5th on his team in points.
As you put it,
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter sullivan
he completely folded in the world juniors and has been average at best in the OHL....i expected more from him than being 4th on his own team in scoring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter sullivan
he's got fewer points in the OHL this year than he had last year for goodness sake...how is that not cause for concern?
Your complaints and points are completely invalid because you're just looking at what you want to look at. You're not taking into consideration games played. Do the math, Mark Scheifele had a better statistical season this year than he did last year and his Points Per Game Average is a clear indication of that.
Just because we took a "reach" on one player, you're making it out as though that will be our MO and game plan, our draft strategy. Again, you're being short sighted. This organization has been here for almost 10 months, how do you know this is going to be the rule and not the exception? I understand if it may worry you, but you make it much more than that, you make it as though this organization has been doing this for years, when in truth, they've been in business for 10 months, not even.
Perhaps management just know a little more than you do? Perhaps management saw something in Mark that they really liked and couldn't pass up on? You're writing your opinions up as if they the are the be all, end all and that's final. It's a process and one you clearly do not have the patience for.
This is no different than you getting upset that management didn't sign UFA's last summer or make trades last summer. You were pissed off then and you still complain about it to this day. Do you fail to see the plan in motion here? All of the info has been made readily available to anyone who chooses to read it, yet it's as though you're expecting something entirely different than what's being said to be the ACTUAL plan.
And I quote Jet on this one,
Quote:
"It's like having a cat as a pet and constantly berating it because it doesn't fetch a stick. It's a cat. It does not fetch sticks. Everyone knows it doesn't fetch, stop expecting it to. Love the cat for what it does, or get a dog."
Coutourier has better Jr numbers as a 17 yr old than Schiefle has now ???
He is also the top Defensive forward on a top team. Anyone who says Schiefle would have more points on Flyers is silly, he wouldn't make the Flyers. The only reason SC is on the team is the kid is ridiculously good defensively. His offensive numbers are related to playing low minutes with the Shelleys and Rinaldos of the team.
I think the arguement is no one other than the Jets had MS higher than SC, and nowhere has he out produced SC. If they really wanted him, they should of traded their pick and picked him a few spots lower. It is on record that multiple teams would of traded up to grab Coutourier or Hamilton in the Jets spot.
Peter never ceases to amuse me.
This whole thread is a re-hash of stuff we've already discussed. People are set in their opinions, though I think many are short sighted and a way to chirp management.
until they do, i will criticise gambling high draft picks when more sure options are available.
To date, the only evidence you've provided to support Couturier being a more sure option than Scheifele:
1) Scheifele is still playing in junior, whereas Couturier has a full-time NHL gig as of right now.
2) Most draft publications had Couturier ranked way ahead of Scheifele.
For the first point, I'll refer you to my last post. Nikita Filatov was a "more sure" option than Erik Karlsson on the basis of this logic. There's no such thing as a sure thing in the NHL Draft, it's a crapshoot. You can only hope to make more educated guesses by having a solid scouting system in place.
Regarding your second point, if you're going to go strictly based on magazines and Central Scouting, what's the point of having scouts employed by your organization? These guys base their livelihood on their ability to see talent and rank it. Moreover, many of these publications were woefully out of date and didn't see Scheifele dominate at the U18 tourney. The fact that THN has now ranked Scheifele #7 among NHL prospects is basically an admission that they ranked him too low in their 2011 Draft Preview.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16
Coutourier has better Jr numbers as a 17 yr old than Schiefle has now ???
He is also the top Defensive forward on a top team. Anyone who says Schiefle would have more points on Flyers is silly, he wouldn't make the Flyers. The only reason SC is on the team is the kid is ridiculously good defensively. His offensive numbers are related to playing low minutes with the Shelleys and Rinaldos of the team.
I think the arguement is no one other than the Jets had MS higher than SC, and nowhere has he out produced SC. If they really wanted him, they should of traded their pick and picked him a few spots lower. It is on record that multiple teams would of traded up to grab Coutourier or Hamilton in the Jets spot.
I don't think you'll find anyone here that argues Couturier is much further along in his development than Scheifele is. Furthermore, the Jets might very well have been working the phones to trade down, who knows?
Coutourier has better Jr numbers as a 17 yr old than Schiefle has now ???
He is also the top Defensive forward on a top team. Anyone who says Schiefle would have more points on Flyers is silly, he wouldn't make the Flyers. The only reason SC is on the team is the kid is ridiculously good defensively. His offensive numbers are related to playing low minutes with the Shelleys and Rinaldos of the team.
I think the arguement is no one other than the Jets had MS higher than SC, and nowhere has he out produced SC. If they really wanted him, they should of traded their pick and picked him a few spots lower. It is on record that multiple teams would of traded up to grab Coutourier or Hamilton in the Jets spot.
It's also on record that Carolina's table was upset to see Scheifele go as he was their guy, and I think they were picking 12th or 13th (correct me if I'm wrong).
Who knows if Chevy + co could've made a deal with the 5 teams between their pick and Carolina's. Sometimes you have to go with your guy and not risk losing him and adding a middle pick.
It's also on record that Carolina's table was upset to see Scheifele go as he was their guy, and I think they were picking 12th or 13th (correct me if I'm wrong).
Who knows if Chevy + co could've made a deal with the 5 teams between their pick and Carolina's. Sometimes you have to go with your guy and not risk losing him and adding a middle pick.
You are correct. Carolina's beat writer tweeted that there was a collective sigh at the moment the Jets drafted Mark Scheifele.
Carolina picked 12th overall, a whopping 5 spots after us. If there is a player you like, and you want, you don't jeopardize it. You take the player you want.
What's 5 spots in the draft? apparently enough to say Scheifele very well would/could have been gone to another organization because they liked him.
to me its about professing to 'build through the draft'...which everyone here has bought hook line and sinker....and then reaching for a player who was an absolute flyer in most educated opinions.
Please explain to me, who's are these educated people and what do you mean by a flyer?
A flyer to go seventh overall, to make it to the nhl one day, to go get drafted in the first round? It's statements like these that degrade your arguments, as they are broad, unexplained opinions without any sort of factual ground being presented.
Quote:
they may luck out and he will be a world beater....they may not....but if their strategy is to gamble on long shot picks at the draft, then we are in for a long and bumpy ride on this old jet plane.
Please point me in the direction of these various educated sources that call him a longshot. Preferably articles from January of his draft year on. Until then your literally just making things up, or not explaining yourself clearly. Long shot to make the nhl, or longshot to be picked 7th overall?
Quote:
i dont really know where everyone here gets their blind faith in 'true north's player development'.....they havent earned it in any way.
Well they did successfully run the farm system for consistent contender and league Powerhouse right now in the vancouver Canuks. But oh right, Van traded all their picks, rushed their 18 yearolds, and bought their contender status through free agencey...oh wait...
not to mention, various educated sources (i would assume the same ones that have mad scheifele a long shot) have said that they've done a great job developing vancouvers players.
Quote:
until they do, i will criticize gambling high draft picks when more sure options are available.
I hope mark proves them right in the long run, but i still don't think the strategy is sound practice.
I agree about reaching, I wanted couturier, but the fact that Scheifele is now regarded in the top 0-15 of ALL prospects through various ranking agencies, shows that it wasn't even a bad reach.
Hey, I too would have liked the surefire option, but those doing the drafting know more then we do... unless you do know more? Do you? because I'm pretty sure the people running the draft read all the rankings as well.
I can understand the frustration with gambling, it shocked me too. But I've come around, and it looks like it's paying off. As far as I'm concerned, they can keep gambling if every time it lands them a top 10-15 prospect league wide. Until they genuinely botch it, what's their to complain about. We can't compare the two because they've gone into completely different situations.
We waited 15 years to get a team, yet people are impatient and expect the world right away. As people have said, Scheifele was on a major trend upwards and Couturier was on a major slide. Let's not forget, Scheifele made the opening day roster as well. I'd be willing to bet he'd have close to 20 points right now too if the Jets had made the mistake of keeping him here.
Scheifele wasn't a reach. Sergei Bautin was a reach.
With everyone basically jumping on PSully for his opinions, I have to say.. I remember draft day and when Ottawa said "Mika Zibanijad" my phone rang right away. My buddy called and said "WOW, we're getting Couturier!"
When it was our turn to select, my guess is that half of you were convinced we were stealing SC, the other half thought Dougie Hamilton.
I remember the hugest "WTF" moment that was more than likely felt throughout the whole city.
We were shocked, taken aback, and it almost spoiled that day as instead of celebrating Couturier, the former #1 rated prospect falling to us we all had to log on and ask "Who is this Scheifele kid?"
To this day, I put my faith in True North because they are a proven top notch organization. We have all been forced to believe that Scheifele is the better pick but if we selected SC instead, there would never be a debate on whether or not we should've selected Scheif.
Couturier is an NHL'er, we still do not know if Scheif will/can be.
Hopefully in the next 3-5 years he WILL be that top 6 Center that we need!
There is no comparison between Scheifele and Couturier right now, simple fact is Couturier is BETTER.
One guy is playing in the NHL and having a pretty good rookie season while the other is playing the OHL having a so-so season tell me who the better player is right now? End of story.
This is so stupid its beyond me. So your telling me we should have taken the guy with a lower ceiling because Jeez he could have played on the 4th line for a 10th place team in the worst division in hockey? Oh my you are right that extra kick we would have gotten from having him centering the 4th line would have changed everything...... Come on, you draft for upside and Mark has top 3 upside is he a risk yes but you have to draft some risks. If you play it safe you end up with a team of 2nd and 3rd liners and then your stuck. I would have taken Hamilton personally as he has the highest upside, is there risk there? Yes there's a ton but those are the risks you have to take.
If you want to argue that Couturier has a higher ceiling then that's a debate I would engage in but these arguments are baseless fact less and rely on an archaic draft ideology.
With everyone basically jumping on PSully for his opinions, I have to say.. I remember draft day and when Ottawa said "Mika Zibanijad" my phone rang right away. My buddy called and said "WOW, we're getting Couturier!"
When it was our turn to select, my guess is that half of you were convinced we were stealing SC, the other half thought Dougie Hamilton.
I remember the hugest "WTF" moment that was more than likely felt throughout the whole city.
We were shocked, taken aback, and it almost spoiled that day as instead of celebrating Couturier, the former #1 rated prospect falling to us we all had to log on and ask "Who is this Scheifele kid?"
To this day, I put my faith in True North because they are a proven top notch organization. We have all been forced to believe that Scheifele is the better pick but if we selected SC instead, there would never be a debate on whether or not we should've selected Scheif.
Couturier is an NHL'er, we still do not know if Scheif will/can be.
Hopefully in the next 3-5 years he WILL be that top 6 Center that we need!
This is a great post, and I truthfully felt the same way. I thought we were indeed getting Couturier. I've also said as recently as a month ago that I would have been fine with Couturier and I do feel he is wrongfully accused of his flaws or why he slid in the draft. I think he is just as good as Scheifele and they both have promising futures, perhaps equally as promising. I also said I believe Couturier could have been on the team this year and we could have used him. He had 3 years junior experience under his belt, he likely could have been a player here by all indications. That's the truth in my opinion, and I won't deny it, it's my opinion. With that being said, I won't be shortsighted, I understand why we took Scheifele as well. For some however, they come off as being shortsighted and as if they view things through a tunnel. I respect all opinions, but some being thrown around here are factually incorrect in relation and comparison to the claims and points being made.
I think many here are questioning or disagreeing with peter sullivan and sipowicz based on not just what they are saying, but how they are saying it.
Saying Scheifele had a "so-so" year? Please, statistically speaking I would love for someone to explain why. Saying because "one (Couturier) is in the NHL right now means he is better" and will be better? Saying "he's got fewer points in the OHL this year than he had last year for goodness sake...how is that not cause for concern?", Saying "he has been average at best in the OHL....i expected more from him than being 4th on his own team in scoring" is both mind boggling and factually incorrect. Look at his numbers. Do the math.
These are mind boggling, short sighted points being made. Some even factually incorrect, yet there are some who like to rag on the kid for it or use it as a negative towards him.
Scheifele aside, I'm not too impressed with the rest of our 2011 draft.
Compare:
#67 Adam Lowry (Nick Cousins #68, Daniel Catenacci #77, Kyle Rau #91)
#97 traded to Montreal (John Gadreau #104, Michael St. Croix #106)
#108 traded to Montreal (Tobias Rieder #114, Marek Tvrdon #115, Martin Gernat #122, Seth Ambroz #128, Max Friberg #143)
#119 Zach Yuen
#149 Austen Brassard
#157 Jason Kasdorf (Matt Mahalak #163)
#188 Aaron Harstad (Brody Sutter #193, Ondrej Palat #208)
Apparently I missed the memo indicating draft picks must be thrown immediately into the team and if not they're failures.
I blame the internet.
Indeed, these sorts of threads are always silly though seemingly inevitable. Most people at least seem to be on the reasonable side of things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WJG
Scheifele aside, I'm not too impressed with the rest of our 2011 draft.
Compare:
#67 Adam Lowry (Nick Cousins #68, Daniel Catenacci #77, Kyle Rau #91)
#97 traded to Montreal (John Gadreau #104, Michael St. Croix #106)
#108 traded to Montreal (Tobias Rieder #114, Marek Tvrdon #115, Martin Gernat #122, Seth Ambroz #128, Max Friberg #143)
#119 Zach Yuen
#149 Austen Brassard
#157 Jason Kasdorf (Matt Mahalak #163)
#188 Aaron Harstad (Brody Sutter #193, Ondrej Palat #208)
Don't really agree with this either, I know some people don't particularly like Kasdorf, but all of our picks have played at or above expectations in their respective leagues this year.
The thing that really makes me guffaw about this is that people get all bent out of shape because we didn't take the next highest pick according to central scouting sources.
If teams are supposed to do that, why the hell have your own scouting staffs? Just print out CSS and go to the draft with that. Save your team hundreds of thousands of dollars.
First off, this conversation should be occuring in March, 2017, not 2012.
Schiefele was not a huge stretch at #7. It was a bit of a stretch, but not a huge one.
Blake Wheeler WAS a huge stretch at #5 and many of the guys who were supposed to be drafted ahead of him have no where near Wheeler's game. On the other hand, Radulov went 14th or 15th, and is a much more potent player today than Wheeler.
Moral of the story: the debate of Schiefle vs Courturier should occur in 2017.
Don't really agree with this either, I know some people don't particularly like Kasdorf, but all of our picks have played at or above expectations in their respective leagues this year.
Same, I'd like to know the basis for these. Are we down on lowry because he was injured?
What's really expected of picks made beyond the 4th round, and considering most picks made past that stage aren't anywhere close to even being locks to make the AHL, how are we upset?
Do we expect every pick to be a player that takes a monumental step forward the year after he's drafted?
These let's debate draft pick threads make me LOL.
First off, if anyone of us could even remotely predict with accuracy the future of any hockey player, we would be employed by some team in the NHL and not be posting here. The draft is an educated guess crap shoot. Nothing more.
How else do you explain things like:
- Martin St. Louis not even being drafted
- 1988 where every team in the draft passed over Mark Recchi at least twice
- 1983 where Minnesota picks Brian Lawton 1st overall instead of Steve Yzerman
- 1980 where Montreal picks Doug Wickenheiser instead of Denis Savard. The Habs are still hearing about that from thier fans.
- 1979 ( the draft that could have changed the Jets 1.0 franchise forever) where our own Jets picked Jimmy Mann ( I can't even say his name without crying ), with the next 2 picks being Michel Goulet and Kevin Lowe and the 48th pick was Mark Messier.
Again the point is it is a gamble. So let's give the Jets 2.0 and Mark S. the benefit of the doubt. No matter how bad the Jets 2.0 do/did with picking Mark, it will be better than 1979, and for that I can sleep in peace.
Indeed, these sorts of threads are always silly though seemingly inevitable. Most people at least seem to be on the reasonable side of things.
Don't really agree with this either, I know some people don't particularly like Kasdorf, but all of our picks have played at or above expectations in their respective leagues this year.
Kasdorf is the only pick I really didn't like. I felt it was like we had to take a Winnipegger, even though a better goalie (Mahalak) was selected only a few picks later.
Lowry is a toss up. He had pretty good stats before his injury, but some other guys drafted just after him (including the guy taken immediately after him) have arguably better stats.
Yuen and Brassard I have no problems with.
My biggest issue is that they traded two picks to Montreal in the 4th round when there were still a lot of good players left.
With everyone basically jumping on PSully for his opinions, I have to say.. I remember draft day and when Ottawa said "Mika Zibanijad" my phone rang right away. My buddy called and said "WOW, we're getting Couturier!"
When it was our turn to select, my guess is that half of you were convinced we were stealing SC, the other half thought Dougie Hamilton.
I remember the hugest "WTF" moment that was more than likely felt throughout the whole city.
We were shocked, taken aback, and it almost spoiled that day as instead of celebrating Couturier, the former #1 rated prospect falling to us we all had to log on and ask "Who is this Scheifele kid?"
To this day, I put my faith in True North because they are a proven top notch organization. We have all been forced to believe that Scheifele is the better pick but if we selected SC instead, there would never be a debate on whether or not we should've selected Scheif.
Couturier is an NHL'er, we still do not know if Scheif will/can be.
Hopefully in the next 3-5 years he WILL be that top 6 Center that we need!
To your top point, when the Jets were up I was fist pumping as I thought the Flyers were getting Hamilton, then when Jets didnt pick SC I knew there was no way the Flyers would pass, as they essentially replaced the 2 centers they lost. Hindsight I am still thrilled, although Hamilton is going to be a stud imo.
But to most, you do have to wait to truly evaluate the picks for at least 2 more years. That being said, after watching every Flyer and Jets game this year, the Jets would be in the playoffs if SC was in their line up this year imo, it is incredible how good he is on PK and at shutting down top players. He shut Malkin right down on Sunday and his only goal came when he was out vs Roo. Couts is the 2nd most valuable fwd on the Flyers already and that is damn impressive.
This is so stupid its beyond me. So your telling me we should have taken the guy with a lower ceiling because Jeez he could have played on the 4th line for a 10th place team in the worst division in hockey? Oh my you are right that extra kick we would have gotten from having him centering the 4th line would have changed everything...... Come on, you draft for upside and Mark has top 3 upside is he a risk yes but you have to draft some risks. If you play it safe you end up with a team of 2nd and 3rd liners and then your stuck. I would have taken Hamilton personally as he has the highest upside, is there risk there? Yes there's a ton but those are the risks you have to take.
If you want to argue that Couturier has a higher ceiling then that's a debate I would engage in but these arguments are baseless fact less and rely on an archaic draft ideology.
Please explain how Couturier has a lower ceiling than Scheff if he was ranked higher in the draft.
There is NO statistical evidence to suggest that Mark Scheifele regressed this year. Disagreements over the pace or level of his development can be made but there is not a single piece of evidence that supports the theory that he has somehow regressed this year.
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