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Old
03-22-2012, 08:39 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Bone for your jar View Post
I was going to say that too....

Seriously though. There's this common refrain about "talentless goons" in the league... guys called up just for a fight. But these guys aren't talent-less.... we just don't happen to approve of the talents they do have. We celebrate skating and puckhandling skills but not fighting skills. We celebrate play-making skills but not acting skills, or the ability to enact code-bound rituals, or a certain flair for performance that revs up the crowd. It's ok to ooh and ahh when somebody dekes out a defenseman, but not when someone stays standing after a stunning uppercut to the chin. Why not? Those are talents too. And in fact, there ARE plenty of people who appreciate them.
We are talking about boxing right?
Truth is these goons are punks who would get their ***** whipped if they had to fight on the street.

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03-22-2012, 08:41 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Brooklanders View Post
We are talking about boxing right?
Truth is these goons are punks who would get their ***** whipped if they had to fight on the street.
I'd appreciate it if you provided evidence. Especially personal. I eagerly await your research.

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03-22-2012, 08:50 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Brooklanders View Post
What skilled does Trevor Gillies and other goons have?
Did you read my post? I just explained how not every guy on your team needs to be a skill guy and if they all were you wouldn't be successful.

Also, why do people keep bringing up Gillies? The dude has played 3 games this year...

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03-22-2012, 08:51 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Lesser of two evils my friend, lesser of two evils.


If you could get rid of fighting and not have players seek retribution at the end of a stick, that would be peachy. But as thet say, if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle.

Perpaps i have it all wrong, that the ani fighting crowd is not against fighting per se, they are just mad that fightings presence has largely prevented things like maki, boom boom and perezhogin.
maybe you do have it all wrong and maybe you don't but I'm sure one day you will find out.

well of fighting is the less of two evils, how'd you feel about having some ape swing his stick at your head.

really all I want is for the NHL to step up and stop being half pregnant with everything. Let's face it, if they did not want all this going on it could stop with bigger fines and more missed games.

Fighting is just the tip of the iceberg. Fighting is not even needed in the game to make it interesting and enjoyable, it's been proven. Fighting does not add to the game, it's a sideshow to the game.

I'm not saying cut out fighting, all i'm saying is cut out the goons and guy who do nothing but fight. You can replace those goons with grinders with offer more.

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03-22-2012, 08:53 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Yeti of the Flow View Post
The good teams are.
ummm yeah but the whole league is not balanced.

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03-22-2012, 08:55 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Brooklanders View Post
We are talking about boxing right?
Truth is these goons are punks who would get their ***** whipped if they had to fight on the street.
Why would they have to fight on the street ? These guys dont fight to show they are tough, hell they rarely even fight for themselves.

Tough guys probably would not fare well "on the streets" but the would fare a hell of a lot better than a "street" guy would on the ice.

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03-22-2012, 08:56 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Landeskog View Post
Fighting does not add to the game, it's a sideshow to the game.
.
This statement is false. This is something that the anti-fighting crowd always claims, but it is simply not true.

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03-22-2012, 09:05 AM
  #133
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of course it's true. saying it's not is just something the fighting fans don't want to believe.

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03-22-2012, 09:05 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Why would they have to fight on the street ? These guys dont fight to show they are tough, hell they rarely even fight for themselves.

Tough guys probably would not fare well "on the streets" but the would fare a hell of a lot better than a "street" guy would on the ice.
I'm imagining Sidney Deane (Wesley Snipes' character in White Men Can't Jump) talking about playing against NBA players.

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03-22-2012, 09:08 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Landeskog View Post

Fighting is just the tip of the iceberg. Fighting is not even needed in the game to make it interesting and enjoyable, it's been proven. Fighting does not add to the game, it's a sideshow to the game.

I'm not saying cut out fighting, all i'm saying is cut out the goons and guy who do nothing but fight. You can replace those goons with grinders with offer more.
You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to point out that your opinion is held by an extreme minority of people who are charged to oversee the game. You can keep whining and beleiving that if you ***** enough that your squeaky wheel might get some grease, feel free. Im just saying you might want to pull up a chair, it might be a while.

The guys who do nothing but fight, who would they be ? Big mac ( ahl), colton orr ( ahl). how many games has gillies played this year ? Fights are way down, there are no more bench clearing brawls and yet the anti fighting whiners keep braying that the sky is falling. You say that you dont want to cut out fighting, but despite he fact that frequency is WAY down, it appears your protestations are way up.

Who is the enforcer on the habs, the wings? The guy with the most fightson the bruins is a good solid 3rd 4th line guy. You are pretty much getting what you claim to want ( guys who fight but can play) and still you squeal like a little girl. How about waiting for fights to actually increase before reanimating this whine fest ?

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03-22-2012, 09:10 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Landeskog View Post
of course it's true. saying it's not is just something the fighting fans don't want to believe.
If you've ever seen a live fight, or even watched a fight on TV, you'd see how a fight actually has an impact on the game. Just watch the crowd and benches. If you ever listen to guys in the dressing room talk about their fighters they'll talk about how it gets the guys going/shows that particular guy really wants to win etc. It builds a lot a lot of camaraderie and trust in the players, something that isn't particular obvious at the time.

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03-22-2012, 09:13 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Landeskog View Post
Olympic hockey is some of the bet hockey in town.
Olympic hockey means basically 6 teams of the best players out of the entire world hockey talent pool, playing a 2-week tournament.

If instead it involved 30 equal teams playing for 8 months, it would be no better than the NHL.

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03-22-2012, 09:15 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by WordsOfWisdumb View Post
Game misconduct for fighting.

If the fight occurs in the third period or overtime, it will be accompanied by a one game suspension. (That way you stamp out all the end of game brawling that would otherwise occur.)


If the NHL put this in place by itself it could claim to be taking a harsh stance on fighting without really taking a hard-line stance at all. (The NHL typically plays lip-service to various things and pretends to care by taking actions and setting rules that don't actually accomplish their original objective.)

You could rub it out for good by increasing the duration of the suspensions, but even a game misconduct for fighting would be a great improvement to the reputation of the game and would allow the NHL to take the moral high ground on fighting and preach about safety while at the same time still seeing fights occur on occasion.
Why?Is that to save a team like the canucks when the going gets rough?Blame Gillis

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03-22-2012, 09:34 AM
  #139
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Olympic hockey sucks. It's slow, laboured hockey with star line-ups against each other. It's essentially a glorified all star game in a tournament format.

I love the fact that we have the 82 game schedule. When you have to play the same team 6 times a year, bad blood, tensions, cheap shots, big hits, guys that hate each other. That is hockey!

Another great fact thrown out by the anti-fighting crowd. "it's not in the play-off and the play-offs are much better because of it".

False

Goons don't dress in the play-offs. But are you seriously trying to tell me that because there is no fighting, the games are better? It couldn't possibly be anything to do with the added importance of each game in a knock-out series could it? the relaxed rules, the increased hitting, the crowd, players playing through rediculous injuries, the hype, the chance at winning it all.

No clearly not, it's just better because there is no fighting...............

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03-22-2012, 09:36 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Landeskog View Post
maybe you do have it all wrong and maybe you don't but I'm sure one day you will find out.

well of fighting is the less of two evils, how'd you feel about having some ape swing his stick at your head.

really all I want is for the NHL to step up and stop being half pregnant with everything. Let's face it, if they did not want all this going on it could stop with bigger fines and more missed games.

Fighting is just the tip of the iceberg. Fighting is not even needed in the game to make it interesting and enjoyable, it's been proven. Fighting does not add to the game, it's a sideshow to the game.

I'm not saying cut out fighting, all i'm saying is cut out the goons and guy who do nothing but fight. You can replace those goons with grinders with offer more.
SO much wrong in this post. And Gretzky and Selanne are two guys who greatly disagree. Not to mention the long list of legends who've dropped the gloves.

Fighting's here to stay.

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03-22-2012, 09:39 AM
  #141
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Wasn't aware it was a problem we needed to get rid of

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03-22-2012, 09:42 AM
  #142
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Wasn't aware it was a problem we needed to get rid of
It's been part of the game for 100 years, but some people don't like it, so it's a 'problem'.

Maybe the problem is the people who don't like the fighting?

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03-22-2012, 09:54 AM
  #143
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doesn't matter fighting is on it's way out. Jr leagues are taking fighting out of the game and you can't fight in NCAA. I give fighting in the NHL another 10-20 years. hockey is evolving and I'm not sure fighting is coming with it. Maybe, it does but it's won't be like it is now.

And to the ones who don't Olympic hockey, clearly skill is not what your getting from hockey. If you want fights, there is blood sports.

UMMMM what ever happened to that guy who was holding or started a hockey fights league? anybody remember that?

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03-22-2012, 09:58 AM
  #144
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Thats a freaking lie and you know it. More than 95 percent of the players want it and this number has been +/- 3%. For as long as they have polled the players.

The nhl is a gate driven league, when fights happen your saying half the stadium turns away in horror or goes and gets a hot dog ? When has a fight ever been booed in an nhl arena ?

The 50 number only has any legs if you include people who cant tell a wrist shot from a wrist watch and are against fighting in principle but would not follow hockey ever, so screw them. I hate opera but i dont go around demanding that they start singing in english,

50 percent, hardy har har.
Who said anything about players? I didn't.

Here's an excerpt from "Total Hockey" (first edition), page 110, written by Dan Diamond. It references a speech to the Canadian Club at the Royal York Hotel in Toronto, held on April 15 1998.

"The inquisitor wanted to know what the league intended to do about fighting in hockey.
Without hesitation, Bettman proceeded to stun the audience by asking for a show of hands as to who in the audience wanted to keep fighting in the NHL and who wished to have it eliminated. The result of this informal poll? Approximately half of the gathering in the room were for fighting and the other half wished to see it eliminated.
The room was polarized: Canadian television network executives voted both for and against its abolishment; executives from some of the country's biggest corporations also were split on fighting's value; members of the fifth estate - some for and some against; and most importantly, some of the most knowledgeable hockey fans in the world were also divided as to what place, if any, fighting should hold in their beloved game."

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03-22-2012, 10:12 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Who said anything about players? I didn't.

Here's an excerpt from "Total Hockey" (first edition), page 110, written by Dan Diamond. It references a speech to the Canadian Club at the Royal York Hotel in Toronto, held on April 15 1998.

"The inquisitor wanted to know what the league intended to do about fighting in hockey.
Without hesitation, Bettman proceeded to stun the audience by asking for a show of hands as to who in the audience wanted to keep fighting in the NHL and who wished to have it eliminated. The result of this informal poll? Approximately half of the gathering in the room were for fighting and the other half wished to see it eliminated.
The room was polarized: Canadian television network executives voted both for and against its abolishment; executives from some of the country's biggest corporations also were split on fighting's value; members of the fifth estate - some for and some against; and most importantly, some of the most knowledgeable hockey fans in the world were also divided as to what place, if any, fighting should hold in their beloved game."
So how many of those people present were your average die-hard fan that attends the games. Forgive me if i'm wrong, but that is the audience you want to preach too, not the big wigs. You mentioned that there was a clear 50/50 split between fans. Still waiting for that

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03-22-2012, 10:20 AM
  #146
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So how many of those people present were your average die-hard fan that attends the games. Forgive me if i'm wrong, but that is the audience you want to preach too, not the big wigs. You mentioned that there was a clear 50/50 split between fans. Still waiting for that
No, I did not. Feel free to re-read my original post on the matter.

We don't know who exactly was in that audience. Their money spends just as good as anyone else's does, and a TV executive with a luxury suite is putting more money into his NHL team than the guy in the nosebleeds. Him having money and a position of influence doesn't make him any more or less of a fan.

In my own experience, there's about 5% of the fans who would absolutely quit being a fan of the game if fighting were outlawed. There's probably another 20% who would quit if fighting were outlawed and if there were undesirable side effects that made the game more dangerous. Everyone else is ambivalent; they'll stand up at the game if there's a fight, but don't really care one way or another.

My stance has been made clear over my time on these boards. I have no problem with fighting as a natural outburst of the emotion of the game. That constitutes less than 5% of the fights. The rest of it is either staged to some extent or totally insignificant to the idea of "policing the game". A second-liner who hammers the other team's star has absolutely nothing to do with each team's tough guy fighting a full period later.

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03-22-2012, 10:23 AM
  #147
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Who said anything about players? I didn't.

Here's an excerpt from "Total Hockey" (first edition), page 110, written by Dan Diamond. It references a speech to the Canadian Club at the Royal York Hotel in Toronto, held on April 15 1998.

"The inquisitor wanted to know what the league intended to do about fighting in hockey.
Without hesitation, Bettman proceeded to stun the audience by asking for a show of hands as to who in the audience wanted to keep fighting in the NHL and who wished to have it eliminated. The result of this informal poll? Approximately half of the gathering in the room were for fighting and the other half wished to see it eliminated.
The room was polarized: Canadian television network executives voted both for and against its abolishment; executives from some of the country's biggest corporations also were split on fighting's value; members of the fifth estate - some for and some against; and most importantly, some of the most knowledgeable hockey fans in the world were also divided as to what place, if any, fighting should hold in their beloved game."

So you feel that it is ok to essentially force players to go against their desires and risk their safety in order to sate you ideal of the game. How magnanamous of you.

I have no problem with people who oppose fighting for whatever reason. what I do have a problem with is people, such as yourself, who will absolutely invent lies to support their opinions ( presumably because they need all of the bolstering they can get) and when this is pointed out, they claim that for some reason the people asked wont speak their true feelings.

I went to the local pacifist club and found out that 100 % of them are opposed to fighting in the NHL. I also found out that they have never been to a game, and have no intentions of ever going even if fighting were banned. Soccer moms in minivans around the world are universally opposed to fighting, many dont know that Gretzky has retired. What matters are the opinions of the fans, not the people who oppose fighting because it makes them feel more refined but couldn't pick Henrick Lundquist out of a two person lineup ( and come on with those dreamy eyes its not even fair)

If the proportion of fans that oppose fighting is anywhere near what you say, can you pass this little message on to them from me ? get off your cans and go to a game or two and support the league. Organize something, get people in the stands to turn their backs during fights and we can then see how many people who spend their own hard earned money are in your camp. Its easy to say that all of the antifighting crowd stays away from the game but the other alternative is that they represent about the same proportion as the separatists demanding a french coach for the habs. Prove me wrong. You say you love the game and that there are others in the same boat, prove it. Do something to show everyone how many of there you are, or is it just easier to piss and moan from the sidelines and invent numbers like 50 % of the fans dont want fights.

One more question, about the vote you mentioned, how many times did Ken Dryden and Damien Cox vote ?

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03-22-2012, 10:48 AM
  #148
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So you feel that it is ok to essentially force players to go against their desires and risk their safety in order to sate you ideal of the game. How magnanamous of you.
You once again make the assumption that banning the action of punching each other in the face is going to make the game more dangerous. Across many threads on this very issue, I've proposed a number of rule adjustments that would ensure that this would not happen, and if it did, that the penalty handed down would be swift and severe. The NHL doesn't need fighting to be replaced with a bunch of other crap.

Second, every Western society has thousands of laws on the books that specifically fly in the face of personal freedom in order to ensure a desirable societal outcome. The idea that personal freedom should trump everything else is not a part of North American law or history, and never has been. This exact ideal carries over to sports as well.

In basketball, there's a shot clock. There didn't used to be. Undertalented teams used to get possession of the ball and simply hold on to it, or maybe pass it back and forth. After several minutes, maybe they shot and maybe they didn't. Good strategy under the rules of the time, horrible for the game. When talk of a shot clock was implemented, plenty thought that it would destroy the essence of the game rather than preserve it. They were wrong.

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I have no problem with people who oppose fighting for whatever reason. what I do have a problem with is people, such as yourself, who will absolutely invent lies to support their opinions ( presumably because they need all of the bolstering they can get) and when this is pointed out, they claim that for some reason the people asked wont speak their true feelings.
The only thing I have in common with such people is that we are all people. What I referred to is a well-known issue called response bias, where someone responds to a survey or poll with an answer that is not reflective of their true beliefs. This doesn't even cover the issues with how a survey question is worded.

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If the proportion of fans that oppose fighting is anywhere near what you say, can you pass this little message on to them from me ? get off your cans and go to a game or two and support the league. Organize something, get people in the stands to turn their backs during fights and we can then see how many people who spend their own hard earned money are in your camp. Its easy to say that all of the antifighting crowd stays away from the game but the other alternative is that they represent about the same proportion as the separatists demanding a french coach for the habs. Prove me wrong. You say you love the game and that there are others in the same boat, prove it. Do something to show everyone how many of there you are, or is it just easier to piss and moan from the sidelines and invent numbers like 50 % of the fans dont want fights.
Again, I never said 50% of fans. Who's making up things now?

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One more question, about the vote you mentioned, how many times did Ken Dryden and Damien Cox vote ?
Ken Dryden is a former NHL player and a Hall of Famer, and according to the idea that "only those who ever played the game at a high level can really answer this question", should automatically be given infinitely more influence in the matter.

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03-22-2012, 10:58 AM
  #149
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You once again make the assumption that banning the action of punching each other in the face is going to make the game more dangerous. Across many threads on this very issue, I've proposed a number of rule adjustments that would ensure that this would not happen, and if it did, that the penalty handed down would be swift and severe. The NHL doesn't need fighting to be replaced with a bunch of other crap..

I never made any such assumption, although I think that this one has validity. My support for fighting, was, is and always will be at the discretion of the players. If they decided to stop fighting, then I am fine with that.

And to assume that the rules you proposed would " ensure" that these things would not happen, takes a level of self-aggandizement that I cannot fathom.

For more than one hundred years, literally thousands of GM/owners and players have made changes to the game as setwards of the games best interest. We should abandon all of this because some internet jabrone is really convinced that his system would work, if they only gave it a chance.

Sorry but in a battle of ideas, I chose the players.

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03-22-2012, 11:03 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Given the choice between retiring at 17 or learning to fight and continuing to play, what's a kid going to do?

Given the choice between retiring at 20 or accepting a permanent role as "enforcer", what's a minor league player going to do?

Given the choice between retiring at 26 or making millions of dollars to ignore the constant signs of brain trauma, what's an NHLer going to do?
Here, you said it not once, not twice but three times and I'll even "caps-lock" it for you. GIVEN THE CHOICE!

And the answer to all of those questions is: All options are up to them. Play the game that is required from you or drop out and pursue another career of your choice. Hey, here's that word again. Choice. CHOICE. CHOICE!!!!

Hypothetically, the 3 players you mentioned above made their teams because they bring physicality and intimidation. They all seem to seriously lack skill and are relying on their punishing style to help their teams. Wouldn't all three players be out of their jobs if you ban fighting? You know, replaced with more skilled but soft players.

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