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Are 'The Suits' the Source of Our Futility?

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Old
03-23-2012, 03:29 PM
  #76
rojac
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Technically yes, but really Burke has made his own bed.

People were prepared to wait and he just flew off the handle on his own.
Some people were prepared to wait. Show me any kind of statistically valid poll that says a majority of people that identify as Maple Leaf fans were prepared to wait.

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03-23-2012, 03:31 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
When you look at it that way one must conclude that Burke had his rebuild, in less than 5 years like he promised, but the result was very different than in Anaheim.
It's 3.5 years. At the end of next season, it will still be less than 5 years.

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03-23-2012, 03:39 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Popular opinions are really starting to change. 45% say they would not re-sign Burke. There are Fire Burke chants at the ACC. This is all going to escalate, especially when the math officially says Burke has failed yet again. New ownership will have to make a move. They don't want the Fire Burke chants at the ACC next season.
45% of people voting in a poll on an Internet board that is highly populated by members of the noisy lunatic fringe of Leafs Nation. So, the majority want to keep him.

The "Fire Burke" chants are by a very small percentage of fans in attendance.If I get the same number of people to chant "Keep Burke as GM" does that mean he should kept?

I don't know about the new owners not wanting "Fire Burke" chants, it gives them good fodder for the sports news shows on their networks. What they don't want is people not buying tickets. But if they buy tickets and chant "Fire Burke", I'm not sure they care.

I suspect the "Fire Burke" chants, such as they are, only serve to be an annoyance to those in attendance trying to enjoy a hockey game rather than have a significant impact on ownership.

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Old
03-23-2012, 03:56 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/...ss_92/doom.gif

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03-23-2012, 03:59 PM
  #80
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Nope.

I believe its the media and fans that are to blame.

check out this article: Toronto Maple Leafs Fans Deserve Exactly What They Are Getting

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03-23-2012, 04:08 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
It's 3.5 years. At the end of next season, it will still be less than 5 years.

I checked it out, it is 3 years, 3 months and 23 days but that somehow transpires into a failed 5 year plan by Gatorade, who is spewing his venom in every thread possible.

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03-23-2012, 04:09 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by pooleboy View Post
10/10 post. u should be GM since u have hindsight to help u out along the way.
Hindsight? What the EF are you talking about? I am simply giving you a synopsis of what Burke said he would do and has actually done The results of which speak for themselves. What planet are you people from seriously? I don't understand you. You speak in some robotic brainwashed fashion always using words like "hindsight" and "prospect pool" and "improved"... I'm not sure any Burke supporters even know what these words actually mean. .......Can you not witness the uninspired lacklustre, heartless display before your eyes or are you just really a masochist and actually love it?

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03-23-2012, 04:10 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Northern Dancer View Post
I checked it out, it is 3 years, 3 months and 23 days but that somehow transpires into a failed 5 year plan by Gatorade, who is spewing his venom in every thread possible.
There was no five year plan. Burke said he was not interested in one. This is the fourth April of darkness for Burke.

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03-23-2012, 04:11 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
There was no five year plan. Burke said he was not interested in one. This is the fourth April of darkness for Burke.
Look out world Gatorade has a new quote.

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03-23-2012, 04:14 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Some people were prepared to wait. Show me any kind of statistically valid poll that says a majority of people that identify as Maple Leaf fans were prepared to wait.
Where were they going if they weren't prepared to wait? They are still here still waiting. Now if there were 12,000 fans in the seats I'd say yeah people are not going to wait.

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03-23-2012, 04:19 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
It's 3.5 years. At the end of next season, it will still be less than 5 years.
The end of next season will conclude five seasons. Calendar years are irrelevant since the season doesn't start jan 1.

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03-23-2012, 04:22 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Northern Dancer View Post
I checked it out, it is 3 years, 3 months and 23 days but that somehow transpires into a failed 5 year plan by Gatorade, who is spewing his venom in every thread possible.
Yes calendar years. This is actually the 4th season as Leafs GM.

Hired November 29th, 2008.

08-09 1st season. (34-35-13) 12th
09-10 2nd season (30-38-14) 15th
10-11 3rd season (37 34 11 ) 10th
11-12 4th season (32 34 8)14th
12-13 5th season. ????????

This will be his FOURTH draft and Free Agency kick at the can. Fourth off-season. He will only be 2 months short of 4 full seasons as the GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

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03-23-2012, 04:26 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Yes calendar years. This is actually the 4th season as Leafs GM.

Hired November 29th, 2008.

08-09 1st season. (34-35-13) 12th
09-10 2nd season (30-38-14) 15th
10-11 3rd season (37 34 11 ) 10th
11-12 4th season (32 34 8)14th
12-13 5th season. ????????

This will be his FOURTH draft and Free Agency kick at the can. Fourth off-season. He will only be 2 months short of 4 full seasons as the GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Yes exactly. Since Burke was not interested in a five year rebuild now is time for evaluation.

Not sure why people are using five years in the first place cause Burke said five years was too long because of his age and that it didn't take five years in Anaheim.

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03-23-2012, 04:35 PM
  #89
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I actually agree that ownership may have a stake in this. Ferguson kept signing old guys to try for the playoffs instead of building properly through the draft. The Burke makes his own equivalent of the Toskala deal and follows up with the similar miscalculation that is the Kessel deal.

Maybe ownership won't allow for a full rebuild and will want an "accelerated retool" so they can get that playoff revenue. Only problem: They have no ****ing hockey sense. They are betting on a high risk retool which MAY get them 3 years of playoffs then back into mediocrity. It also may not pan out and land flat on its ass, which will happen more often than not and is exactly what is going on. If they had any brains, they could realize the need of a full rebuild enough to wait out maybe 2 years more of what a panning "retool" would be in a full rebuild, which is much less riskier and can also have very high and accessible potential of a perennial playoff team, and thus more revenue.

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03-23-2012, 04:41 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Swervin81 View Post
I actually agree that ownership may have a stake in this. Ferguson kept signing old guys to try for the playoffs instead of building properly through the draft. The Burke makes his own equivalent of the Toskala deal and follows up with the similar miscalculation that is the Kessel deal.

Maybe ownership won't allow for a full rebuild and will want an "accelerated retool" so they can get that playoff revenue. Only problem: They have no ****ing hockey sense. They are betting on a high risk retool which MAY get them 3 years of playoffs then back into mediocrity. It also may not pan out and land flat on its ass, which will happen more often than not and is exactly what is going on. If they had any brains, they could realize the need of a full rebuild enough to wait out maybe 2 years more of what a panning "retool" would be in a full rebuild, which is much less riskier and can also have very high and accessible potential of a perennial playoff team, and thus more revenue.
The one thing I keep thinking about is MLSE hired Burke because they knew he wasn't patient. They knew he was egotistical. So they didn't have to actually tell him to get in the playoffs right away. They knew he would try. So maybe they are at fault. I can't believe Burke is not running this ship.

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Old
03-23-2012, 05:48 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Yes calendar years. This is actually the 4th season as Leafs GM.

Hired November 29th, 2008.

08-09 1st season. (34-35-13) 12th
09-10 2nd season (30-38-14) 15th
10-11 3rd season (37 34 11 ) 10th
11-12 4th season (32 34 8)14th
12-13 5th season. ????????

This will be his FOURTH draft and Free Agency kick at the can. Fourth off-season. He will only be 2 months short of 4 full seasons as the GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Right, but Burke has only really built the team for the last three seasons -- the 08-09 team was built by Fletcher. Most moves towards building a team are accomplished during the draft and the summer. Surely you agree with that.

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Old
03-23-2012, 05:53 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Hockeyhopeful View Post
The one thing I keep thinking about is MLSE hired Burke because they knew he wasn't patient. They knew he was egotistical. So they didn't have to actually tell him to get in the playoffs right away. They knew he would try. So maybe they are at fault. I can't believe Burke is not running this ship.
When they fired JFJ and put Fletcher in as interim GM, Peddie said something to the effect that the next GM would be one who was both a short term fixer and a long term builder. So, I've never understood why anyone is surprised by Burke's approach.

To me, it's just a bunch of people whining that they didn't get their way.

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03-23-2012, 06:26 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by pooleboy View Post
this is what i thought the thread was going to be about.

then gatorade came in and made it a burke bashing thread!

Burke bashing in ALL the threads!
Wrong.

The OP's choice of title is misleading, I'll admit.

But his desire, as clearly expressed in his initial post, was to discuss the ownership, and not the attendees.

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Old
03-23-2012, 07:15 PM
  #94
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The Leafs, honestly, have the best ownership you could hope for and have for a number of years. People complained about the teachers, but they were silent partners in Leaf ownership. They let the hockey people run the hockey show. You can blame Larry Tennenbaum for being too friendly with some of the veteran players, but that happens in non-corporate environments as well.

JFJ's big failing was not fully appreciating the new CBA would completely change the landscape, and didn't prepare for it, and still didn't seem to understand it after it was signed. And for that he was fired.

Burke, however, has been operating with an ownership group that has given him carte blanche. Despite what movies may tell you, you don't want owners storming down from their box seat and telling the GM what to do. That leads to dumb decisions. You let you GM do his job, and if he fails, then you replace him.

That is what the 'suits' have been doing. Letting the GM do his job. If it is failing, then it the fault of the President and his hired team.

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03-23-2012, 07:25 PM
  #95
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The suit problem also known as the Richard Peddie problem has been removed.

The damage that was done from Peddie's influence on the team specifically the fiasco that was the puppet GM JFJ is still being felt and will be for a few more years. People can blame Burke or the suits of MLSE right now but the damage was done long before Burke came to town. Burke certainly has made some mistakes but he has also done a lot of good work and we probably won't see the results until next season if we're lucky but more likely the season after that.

And I also don't blame JFJ nearly as much as I blame Peddie. JFJ tried to convince the board and the strongest member of that Peddie that this team needed to be rebuilt and they said no. So JFJ was forced to do what his employer told him to do.

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Old
03-25-2012, 04:55 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Right, but Burke has only really built the team for the last three seasons -- the 08-09 team was built by Fletcher. Most moves towards building a team are accomplished during the draft and the summer. Surely you agree with that.
So because Burke didn't change much in his first season...it doesn't count? So basically no I don't agree with that. He took over a hockey team in November....2 months into the season. He had a trade deadline that year did he not? He had 5 months to make deals. Doesn't count against his record of GM?

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03-25-2012, 05:58 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Yes exactly. Since Burke was not interested in a five year rebuild now is time for evaluation.

Not sure why people are using five years in the first place cause Burke said five years was too long because of his age and that it didn't take five years in Anaheim.
I think it is the anti-Burke crowds spewing this 5 year nonsense. I cannot speak for all Burke fans but I do not hold him to that schedule. As long as I see improvement and building blocks for a better future I am OK.

Am I disappointed with the results to date? Absolutely! Do I think we are on the right path? Absolutely!

I repeat the positives:

1) seven 1st round draft picks from the past 4 drafts in the system
2) one of the youngest rosters in the NHL
3) a player in the top 5 scoring
4) another player who until injured was in the top 10
5) a chance at a top 5 pick
6) the baby Leafs are in 1st place and have a real shot at the Calder Cup

If anyone had predicted the above situation when Burke was 1 day into his job in mid 2008 I think you would have been shipped off to the Donwood Clinic.

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03-25-2012, 06:09 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Northern Dancer View Post
I think it is the anti-Burke crowds spewing this 5 year nonsense. I cannot speak for all Burke fans but I do not hold him to that schedule. As long as I see improvement and building blocks for a better future I am OK.

Am I disappointed with the results to date? Absolutely! Do I think we are on the right path? Absolutely!

I repeat the positives:

1) seven 1st round draft picks from the past 4 drafts in the system
2) one of the youngest rosters in the NHL
3) a player in the top 5 scoring
4) another player who until injured was in the top 10
5) a chance at a top 5 pick
6) the baby Leafs are in 1st place and have a real shot at the Calder Cup

If anyone had predicted the above situation when Burke was 1 day into his job in mid 2008 I think you would have been shipped off to the Donwood Clinic.
Agreed.

I think some people are focusing on the failure of the stop gap solutions that BB put in place and are overlooking the long term. There's a reason why he signed Connolly to only 2 years, Lambordi also I think has 1 more year on his contract. Gus shouldn't be with this team any longer. Army is also entering his final year.

I think he's been drafting pretty good and developing them. Some might be ready for the year after next when all these contracts are off the books. Then they'll be a young core of 1st rounders that hopefully pan out.

In the mean time though, It's a definite pain.

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Old
03-25-2012, 06:11 PM
  #99
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So because Burke didn't change much in his first season...it doesn't count? So basically no I don't agree with that. He took over a hockey team in November....2 months into the season. He had a trade deadline that year did he not? He had 5 months to make deals. Doesn't count against his record of GM?
Only problem with your argument is that it takes two to make a trade. You can't flat out blame Bourke if no one wanted to trade for the mediocrity and junk he was given. Re-builds take time, he eventually got around and started clearing the slate, that former Calgary GM lost his job for taking them off our hands.

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03-25-2012, 06:19 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
There was no five year plan. Burke said he was not interested in one. This is the fourth April of darkness for Burke.
Of course there wasn't, everything came to a grinding halt because you said so. We're going to forfeit our lottery pick this year if we're to believe your ideology.

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