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University/College Questions Part III (incl. protest discussion)

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03-25-2012, 08:15 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Not everyone is destined for greatness. Sure, we can say the brightest students deserve praise, and that's fine by me. However, 3.4 is way above the average for engineering. So...you could be above average and not get an education, that doesn't make sense to me.
Look, I'm not stuck on the 3.4 GPA for every program. If everyone enrolled in the program gets an average of 3.0 then obviously something like this wouldn't work for that specific program.

That being said, I don't think a 3.4 is THAT outrageous. If you commit yourself to school and studying, it isn't impossible. It means less social time and less fun, but if you're asking someone else to help pay your education, this is a sacrifice you need to be willing to make.

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03-25-2012, 08:17 PM
  #152
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You won't see me often agreeing with you, but kudos, meme well used!

I totally agree that there should be a cut off for slackers and fly-by students.

Something along the lines of:

1. If you fail a class, expect to take it again out of your own $.

2. If you wish to move out-of-province within 3 years of your graduation, after taking advantage of our cheap education, expect to pay the real bill.
Just because I don't agree with the strike does not mean I don't agree with leaving education accessible.

As someone who had low marks myself, I completely understand if I were to be one to be penalized. It's only normal.

I think there should be more opportunity and more respect for those with higher marks, but if someone is inferior, refusing to teach them will only make the matter worse.

As of now, at concordia anyway, you need a 2.0 per year to be on good standing and 2.0 to graduate. Perhaps, they should make 2.0 min per year but 2.5 average at the end required. So maybe you get 2.7,2.8,2.0,2.5 and you're on the cutoff. I find that decent. Expecting 3.4 per year is rough, you have some good years and some bad years. A master's degree application cutoff is listed as 3.0 to 3.3 in most universities. If 3.4 is the minimum required for a bachelors then that's a little twisted.

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03-25-2012, 08:23 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Buy the slackers work boots for their sixteenth birthday, that is the ultimate solution for your problem.
Nothing wrong with being in the workforce if you don't have the brains for academia. The vast majority of these people will end up working that same type job after they slack off for 4 years through university anyways.

Can't have everything given to you. University is not super fun party time. At some point the money needs to come from somewhere...Either it comes from the students, at which point they can slack off to their hearts' content...Or it comes from the taxpayer. And I am not ok with my tax dollars funding super fun party time for some slacker kid who will just become a parking meter clerk after he's done school. Don't need to go to university for that and waste everyone else's time.

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03-25-2012, 08:24 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
You have to decide the purpose of university education,first.

Are the universities there for providing education for all or is to develop elite talent.

If the purpose is for developing the brightest, just restrict the number of seats available and the slackers and such will be weeded out naturally. When there a lack of seats in higher education in decades gone by, that is how things were done.

If you are going to provide education for all you'll need to develop community colleges or have several tiers of university courses.

Your problem isn't in the universities per se, but that parents are in denial that junior is none too bright and prone to lackadaisical effort.

Buy the slackers work boots for their sixteenth birthday, that is the ultimate solution for your problem.
Developing elite talent is what graduate school is for. And, say, law or medicine as well. Otherwise I'm inclined to say that widespread access could make a school more effective than elite access.

Cegeps partly fill the role of community colleges as far as vocational education is concerned.

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03-25-2012, 08:28 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Just because I don't agree with the strike does not mean I don't agree with leaving education accessible.

As someone who had low marks myself, I completely understand if I were to be one to be penalized. It's only normal.

I think there should be more opportunity and more respect for those with higher marks, but if someone is inferior, refusing to teach them will only make the matter worse.

As of now, at concordia anyway, you need a 2.0 per year to be on good standing and 2.0 to graduate. Perhaps, they should make 2.0 min per year but 2.5 average at the end required. So maybe you get 2.7,2.8,2.0,2.5 and you're on the cutoff. I find that decent. Expecting 3.4 per year is rough, you have some good years and some bad years. A master's degree application cutoff is listed as 3.0 to 3.3 in most universities. If 3.4 is the minimum required for a bachelors then that's a little twisted.
Come on man... A 2.0 cutoff is a joke. So is 2.5... You can get that without even going to class. What's the point of going to university if you're only going to put in the minimum effort required? It's a waste of time and money, for everyone. You're better off going to work for the city instead of going to school at that point...Chances are by the time you've put in a few years you'll be making more money than any kind of non blue collar job you'd get out of school with a 2.0 GPA.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe a 3.0+ GPA is some sort of stretch goal if you are willing to put in the work.

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03-25-2012, 08:32 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Come on man... A 2.0 cutoff is a joke. So is 2.5... You can get that without even going to class. What's the point of going to university if you're only going to put in the minimum effort required? It's a waste of time and money, for everyone. You're better off going to work for the city instead of going to school at that point...Chances are by the time you've put in a few years you'll be making more money than any kind of non blue collar job you'd get out of school with a 2.0 GPA.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe a 3.0+ GPA is some sort of stretch goal if you are willing to put in the work.
Depends on what discipline. Philosophy, history are distinct possibilities but engineering with a 2.0 GPA can still land one a job much better paid than most blue-collar jobs.

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03-25-2012, 08:34 PM
  #157
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Basing something like that on grades is discriminatory.

Just because someone gets a 3.0 does mean they are "slackers."

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03-25-2012, 08:36 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Basing something like that on grades is discriminatory.

Just because someone gets a 3.0 does not mean they are "slackers."
Fixed for you.

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03-25-2012, 08:41 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Depends on what discipline. Philosophy, history are distinct possibilities but engineering with a 2.0 GPA can still land one a job much better paid than most blue-collar jobs.
I think I've been pretty clear that I'm speaking in general here...I understand that every program is different, but in the end my point is the same...If the taxpayer is expecting to pick up the slack, then the minimums for school need to increase drastically.

Can't believe I'm getting so much resistance here...It really enrages me to see excuses being made for those that aren't willing to put in more than the minimum. I know it sucks to hear for those that don't get great marks, but lets be realistic for a minute. If you are truly doing your best and only getting mediocre marks, then I really don't think university is for you. You'd be saving yourself time and money working a trade.

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03-25-2012, 08:42 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Basing something like that on grades is discriminatory.
In what sense?

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03-25-2012, 08:45 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Basing something like that on grades is discriminatory.

Just because someone gets a 3.0 does mean they are "slackers."
wether it's because they're slackers or they just arent smart enough to get better grades, it's irrelevant...

they wont get the better jobs, and some of them wont even be good enough to work in the field they studied in anyway...

cutting off people who arent to make it anyway is doing them a favor, thinking it's discriminatory is stupid at best.

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03-25-2012, 08:47 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
In what sense?
Because grades are subjective?

Not to mention grades are not even close to the only thing that makes you a good student.

What is better? Some undergrad that graduates with a 3.8, or someone who graduates with 3.3 and works as a research assistant for a professor?

Or what about someone who has extensive volunteer working within the school, such as being in the Senate, or working in various departments, but has a lower GPA that someone who didn't?

What about students who work part-time, or live on their own, and don't have the time to spend on school like others who don't?

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03-25-2012, 08:48 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I think I've been pretty clear that I'm speaking in general here...I understand that every program is different, but in the end my point is the same...If the taxpayer is expecting to pick up the slack, then the minimums for school need to increase drastically.

Can't believe I'm getting so much resistance here
...It really enrages me to see excuses being made for those that aren't willing to put in more than the minimum. I know it sucks to hear for those that don't get great marks, but lets be realistic for a minute. If you are truly doing your best and only getting mediocre marks, then I really don't think university is for you. You'd be saving yourself time and money working a trade.
Meh, the more posts on the issue the clearer it become...

students are not interested in paying more, if at all.
students are not interested in working hard.

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03-25-2012, 08:51 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
wether it's because they're slackers or they just arent smart enough to get better grades, it's irrelevant...

they wont get the better jobs, and some of them wont even be good enough to work in the field they studied in anyway...

cutting off people who arent to make it anyway is doing them a favor, thinking it's discriminatory is stupid at best.
You have no idea what a university is for.

Don't bother replying to any of my posts, it will be a waste of time.

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03-25-2012, 08:51 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Look, I'm not stuck on the 3.4 GPA for every program. If everyone enrolled in the program gets an average of 3.0 then obviously something like this wouldn't work for that specific program.

That being said, I don't think a 3.4 is THAT outrageous. If you commit yourself to school and studying, it isn't impossible. It means less social time and less fun, but if you're asking someone else to help pay your education, this is a sacrifice you need to be willing to make.
You don't know engineering at Université Laval don't you ? 3,4 is elite here. You can enter the master's with 2,7 ! Professors are reckless.

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03-25-2012, 08:51 PM
  #166
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In what sense?
You don't seem to understand that some people have 4 classes per semester and don't work while they study. Meanwhile, some could have 5-6-7 classes and manage to work. That has a major impact on grades. I have several friends who were given a good amount of money from their parents for school, and yet they find a way to brag about how much better they are at school than I am. I only work 14 hours a week, though it is still 2 full days of studying. I don't buy you theory, you're rewarding richer people.

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03-25-2012, 08:53 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
wether it's because they're slackers or they just arent smart enough to get better grades, it's irrelevant...

they wont get the better jobs, and some of them wont even be good enough to work in the field they studied in anyway...

cutting off people who arent to make it anyway is doing them a favor, thinking it's discriminatory is stupid at best.
Most of my younger relatives either went to university or kept going back for extra years and extra degrees because there was a lack of decent jobs available for them when they graduated from high school or university.

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03-25-2012, 08:58 PM
  #168
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Come on man... A 2.0 cutoff is a joke. So is 2.5... You can get that without even going to class. What's the point of going to university if you're only going to put in the minimum effort required? It's a waste of time and money, for everyone. You're better off going to work for the city instead of going to school at that point...Chances are by the time you've put in a few years you'll be making more money than any kind of non blue collar job you'd get out of school with a 2.0 GPA.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe a 3.0+ GPA is some sort of stretch goal if you are willing to put in the work.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but last year I worked full time while going to school and suffered for it. I saved money from last year and I am doing a really heavy courseload this year and I am over 3.4. Some people don't have the luxury of not working a bit and living off savings. 2.0 is a joke, but I'm speaking in regards to my program, so obviously, 2.5 is a more reasonable cut off. Can't expect perfection. Saying 3.4 will only allow the people with aid from their parents or something to succeed and those who help themselves to be screwed. Look, I get it, you should be rewarded for your efforts, but there is a certain margin of error for your expectations. That's all.

Like I said, I have over 3.4 this year and I'm doing 40 engineering credits this year alone. Much higher than the average rate. Still, I've seen both ends of the spectrum and while someone may succeed will working full time, not everyone can.

Also, keep in mind, someone can work their ass off and get a 2.9. Someone can slack and get a 3.2. Marks don't say the full story. If you wanna argue that students below a certain grade get penalized by way of addition supplementary work to catch up, sure. I want to say, "they should pay more", but in the scenario i brought up, you work, you're behind, so work more? There was to be more flexibility, I obviously get what you're saying though, but I feel it should be a combination of things and not just 1 massive increase in one form of evaluation.

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03-25-2012, 09:00 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
wether it's because they're slackers or they just arent smart enough to get better grades, it's irrelevant...

they wont get the better jobs, and some of them wont even be good enough to work in the field they studied in anyway...

cutting off people who arent to make it anyway is doing them a favor, thinking it's discriminatory is stupid at best.
Honestly, a lot of what you learn isn't even applied. Odds are a kid can suck at advanced calculus and still thrive on the work force in an engineering discipline where he can reference books and his tools should he be a designer. You can't make it too simplistic, everyone is different.

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03-25-2012, 09:00 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Because grades are subjective?

Not to mention grades are not even close to the only thing that makes you a good student.

What is better? Some undergrad that graduates with a 3.8, or someone who graduates with 3.3 and works as a research assistant for a professor?

Or what about someone who has extensive volunteer working within the school, such as being in the Senate, or working in various departments, but has a lower GPA that someone who didn't?

What about students who work part-time, or live on their own, and don't have the time to spend on school like others who don't?
Good points, but at the end of the day if you are going to take on other activities, you should be working overtime on school to make sure it doesn't bring your grades down. Things like being a TA or student council are not excuses for lower grades...They are activities you take on voluntarily. Yes they provide a more enriching university experience, but if are bringing your grades down I'm not so sure you should be splitting your time like that.

Working part time and going to school is always tougher, but many people manage to do it while still maintaining top grades.

When I was in university, the TAs and the Student Councilmembers all graduated with top honours. Typically the students who take on roles like that are extremely hard working and dedicated...And if there was an imposed GPA minimum I am quite certain they'd just work harder to reach it.

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03-25-2012, 09:05 PM
  #171
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Most of my younger relatives either went to university or kept going back for extra years and extra degrees because there was a lack of decent jobs available for them when they graduated from high school or university.
Not surprised... you know, when everyone goes to university, having a Minor/Major in "whatever" doesnt give you much f an advantage... and if you have bad grades on "top" of that, well...

at some point, it would better for everyone (including the "future worker") to quit school, avoid the huge debt, buy a pair of working boots and start as a manoeuver... by the time these kids are 30, they'll earn 35$ an hour, charge 60/80$ an hour (cash, no bills) for side jobs, get two weeks off in July + some more weeks during winter depending on the specific field they work on...

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03-25-2012, 09:11 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Honestly, a lot of what you learn isn't even applied. Odds are a kid can suck at advanced calculus and still thrive on the work force in an engineering discipline where he can reference books and his tools should he be a designer. You can't make it too simplistic, everyone is different.

True, but if - overall- you arent that good at any of the things you're studying well...

but while in your example this person would have lower grades in calculus, chances are he'll be better in some other classes helping him achieve the "minimum requirement" for him/her to keep his privileges...

requirement is lets say 3.0 ? get a 2.4 in one class ? fine, get 3.2 in the 3 other classes you attend to...

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03-25-2012, 09:14 PM
  #173
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Sorry to derail more serious conversations but McGill is CIS hockey champions for the first time in history.

Go Redmen!

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03-25-2012, 09:16 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
You have no idea what a university is for.

Don't bother replying to any of my posts, it will be a waste of time.
Well, what is it for? Is it to create future productive members or society or is it an "experience" that will make one's life so much more enriching regardless of what you get out of it academically?

I'm willing to pay more taxes for the former. The latter? You guys find a way to pay for it yourselves. Honestly, what's next? Tax dollars paying for your vacation to Europe?

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Originally Posted by Stanley Cup View Post
You don't seem to understand that some people have 4 classes per semester and don't work while they study. Meanwhile, some could have 5-6-7 classes and manage to work. That has a major impact on grades. I have several friends who were given a good amount of money from their parents for school, and yet they find a way to brag about how much better they are at school than I am. I only work 14 hours a week, though it is still 2 full days of studying. I don't buy you theory, you're rewarding richer people.

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I'm not rewarding richer people. I'm rewarding people who are willing to put in the work required to succeed in university. I worked full time all through university and took classes at night, so I refuse to buy the excuse that life is just too hard to get good grades.

Why would someone take 7 classes and work at the same time anyways? When I was in university, taking more than 5 classes per semester required special permission from the school. If you can't handle 7 classes + a part time job, then you should probably lighten your workload. No point in trying to rush through university in 2 years or trying to do a double major in 3-4 years.

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I understand the point you're trying to make, but last year I worked full time while going to school and suffered for it. I saved money from last year and I am doing a really heavy courseload this year and I am over 3.4. Some people don't have the luxury of not working a bit and living off savings. 2.0 is a joke, but I'm speaking in regards to my program, so obviously, 2.5 is a more reasonable cut off. Can't expect perfection. Saying 3.4 will only allow the people with aid from their parents or something to succeed and those who help themselves to be screwed. Look, I get it, you should be rewarded for your efforts, but there is a certain margin of error for your expectations. That's all.

Like I said, I have over 3.4 this year and I'm doing 40 engineering credits this year alone. Much higher than the average rate. Still, I've seen both ends of the spectrum and while someone may succeed will working full time, not everyone can.

Also, keep in mind, someone can work their ass off and get a 2.9. Someone can slack and get a 3.2. Marks don't say the full story. If you wanna argue that students below a certain grade get penalized by way of addition supplementary work to catch up, sure. I want to say, "they should pay more", but in the scenario i brought up, you work, you're behind, so work more? There was to be more flexibility, I obviously get what you're saying though, but I feel it should be a combination of things and not just 1 massive increase in one form of evaluation.
At the end of the day, if we are asking the taxpayers to help fund it, university should be for those who have supreme work ethic and dedication. The taxpayers shouldn't have to pay to help support mediocrity.

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03-25-2012, 09:18 PM
  #175
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Well, what is it for? Is it to create future productive members or society or is it an "experience" that will make one's life so much more enriching regardless of what you get out of it academically?

I'm willing to pay more taxes for the former. The latter? You guys find a way to pay for it yourselves. Honestly, what's next? Tax dollars paying for your vacation to Europe?
To raise the education level of the populace? To push research in all subjects of scholarship?

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