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University/College Questions Part III (incl. protest discussion)

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Old
03-25-2012, 11:00 PM
  #201
waffledave
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Originally Posted by raz123 View Post
They're one Google away!
To be fair, you can't quote stats and then tell me to go find them when I ask where you got them...I'd say that's one of the first things you learn in university.

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You know, if FREE SCHOOL (as you put it) was such a crazy idea, we wouldn't be seeing it at the international level.

If FREE SCHOOL (as you put it) was such a crazy idea, we wouldn't be seeing it in elementary, high school, nor CEGEP.
Free school at the international level is not all roses though, even you can admit that. Given that these countries are heavily taxed, your university education isn't exactly getting you that much more money in the end. Plus they have severe issues with people benefitting from free school and then leaving the country, taking their education elsewhere. There are many in those countries protesting free school because it is hurting their society more than helping it.

Then there is the argument about the value of a degree when literally everyone has one. I have many friends from Europe who elected to come to Quebec to study because a post-secondary degree in their country has little value on the job market. When you make it accessible to everyone, you need to dumb it down for everyone too, and often the quality is impacted.

Quote:
Anyhow, the stats basically go like this:

A Univ graduate will be, on average, making $750k more in his lifetime than a non-univ graduate.

On $750k, about a third ($250k) will go back to society, paid in income taxes.

The Gov pays about $10k in yearly tuition per student. Let's grossly overestimate and say that the Gov pays $50k per student to go through Univ.

That's a $50k investment for a $250k return.
To be fair, $50k investment for a $250k return over the working lifetime of a student (say 40 years) is not really that great. We're talking around 3.5%. I'm hoping you factored in inflation because otherwise, it ends up being almost break even.

Quote:
»The truth is Quebec universities receive a lot of money, but are rather victims of an improper use of funding, or a misallocation of resources

A number of stakeholders, chief among them Conference of Rectors and Principals of Quebec Universities (CRÉPUQ), assert that universities suffer from “chronic underfunding.”

It is the main reason given to justify the tuition fee hikes: universities need money, so students have to do their part. Yet this alleged underfunding is actually a misleading construction built on a rather weak methodology. CRÉPUQ assesses this “underfunding” at $620 million. However, this figure is not based on an analysis of universities’ needs that points to a lack of resources, but rather on “the current difference between the financial resources Quebec universities have at their disposal compared to what institutions in other provinces have.”

As such, the CRÉPUQ figure does not actually reveal what universities are lacking, only the additional resources they would gain if Quebec raised its tuition fees to match the Canadian average. Do we really need this money? According to the Quebec government, in 2008–2009, overall university spending represented 1.94 % of Quebec’s GDP, compared to 1.76% in Ontario and 1.58% in Canada as a whole (excluding Quebec).

If we combine what the government, students, and the private sector invest in universities, we get a total of $29,242 in spending per student in Quebec compared to $26,383 for Ontario and $28,735 for the rest of Canada.

Out of all OECD member countries, only the United States and South Korea outstrip Quebec in terms of overall spending per student.
In the area of sponsored research, per-student spending is $7,878 in Quebec versus $6,225 in the rest of Canada. Quebec therefore already spends more per student—both in general and for research—than the rest of Canada. So why do universities need even more money?

Part of the answer lies in what they do with the money they already have. An examination of their budgets shows that more and more funds are being allocated to research, to the detriment of operating and teaching budgets. The amount of grants and research contracts allocated to universities has more than doubled from 1995–1996 to 2005–2006, swelling from $721 million to $1.276 billion in constant 2006 dollars.

This money is unevenly distributed. The fields of health science, pure science, and applied science alone received 75.8 % of the research grants and contracts awarded in 2005–2006. As for social and human sciences, in the same period they received only a scant 7.8 % of funds assigned to research.

In addition, this money is used less for fundamental research than applied or marketable research. Businesses are increasingly turning to universities to subcontract out their research and development activities. This takes the form of research partnerships or even university expertise farmed out to businesses.


Source
I had a nice chuckle when I saw the source of your article there...In any case, maybe because it's getting late I'm having a tough time reading, but I'm not really sure why it's being seen as a negative when universities are spending more towards research in medical and science related fields? Isn't a big part of your argument based on investments and returns to society? Is medical research not one of the biggest contributors to society? I am actually quite comfortable with schools allocating more money to this field...Especially compared to social sciences or arts.

Realistically, do you feel that universities should be cutting their research budgets in order to keep tuition fees low? Who does that benefit exactly, aside from the students (and then, only the ones not receiving the grants).

I also find that article to be a little misleading...They quote that Quebec has higher per-student spending than the rest of Canada, but then say that sponsored spending is again the highest in Canada on a per-student basis...Yet if we take away the sponsored spending from the overall spending, Quebec is actually below average compared to the rest of Canada. Now, that article is all over the place so I may have gotten mixed up, but if the big difference in spending is coming from the private sector, and going towards research grants, is there not still a deficit compared to the national average?

Another question...Are CEGEPs being used in any of these calculations?

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Originally Posted by raz123 View Post
Oh you, you're so hard headed .

The average student already works ~17 hours per week to live and pay tuition.
Research shows that anything over 15 hours is detrimental to studies.

Students today are the taxpayers of tomorrow. We will be paying for your late days, you know. Invest in us, produce more of us, and you'll have a better future, as we'll contribute many times more to society in tax $ than non-graduates.
The ones who are hard working and dedicated enough to put up a respectable GPA, maybe. The ones who treat university like a fun 4 year vacation that is an "experience" won't give me ****.

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Old
03-25-2012, 11:06 PM
  #202
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As you wish.

With an inversed population pyramid, the guys at the bottom will be contributing to a massive number of elderly dependents. The more education we have, the better salaries we make, the more $ we pay back in taxes, the more $ the Gov has to spend in health, etc.
I hate to tell you, but more education does not mean better salary...Especially when everyone and their mother has that education because it is virtually free. You get what you put into university, which is why I argue that you should be forced to put in a hell of a lot.

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03-25-2012, 11:10 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I hate to tell you, but more education does not mean better salary...Especially when everyone and their mother has that education because it is virtually free. You get what you put into university, which is why I argue that you should be forced to put in a hell of a lot.
Limiting access to education would destroy our economy. Although, I agree, there should be some competition for spots in university. If you fail to meet standards, a penalty should apply, but you need somewhat reasonable expectations is all. Setting the standard so high only elite can reach it would be a terrible idea. You have to breed competition but not destroy opportunity.

As for everyone having that standard, low costs and opportunity has allowed many to reach masters and PhD programs.

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03-25-2012, 11:27 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I hate to tell you, but more education does not mean better salary...Especially when everyone and their mother has that education because it is virtually free. You get what you put into university, which is why I argue that you should be forced to put in a hell of a lot.
The problem with what you're advocating is that when what you propose occurs, society tends to end up as an elitist society, where relatively small number of people of hold exclusive rights to knowledge and skills, like the church before the printing press and midieval guilds.

I'm not a big fan of the present education system but I do think we're better off with the education and money more evenly distributed among society.

With our modern manufacturing, farming and knowledge systems your argument has serious flaws in it, the premise being that we can't afford to clothe, feed and house young people for an extra couple of years longer than our grandparents generation could.

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03-25-2012, 11:44 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I hate to tell you, but more education does not mean better salary...Especially when everyone and their mother has that education because it is virtually free. You get what you put into university, which is why I argue that you should be forced to put in a hell of a lot.
there is come cases that this wouldn't apply, but look at this :

http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/a.../19192229.aspx

EDUCATION
Education Salary Entries Average Gross Salary
Less Than High School 27 52,126 CAD
High School 158 55,783 CAD
Some College 526 58,498 CAD
Bachelors Degree 737 69,544 CAD
Masters Degree 264 82,457 CAD
Doctorate Degree 44 106,155 CAD

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03-25-2012, 11:47 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Limiting access to education would destroy our economy. Although, I agree, there should be some competition for spots in university. If you fail to meet standards, a penalty should apply, but you need somewhat reasonable expectations is all. Setting the standard so high only elite can reach it would be a terrible idea. You have to breed competition but not destroy opportunity.

As for everyone having that standard, low costs and opportunity has allowed many to reach masters and PhD programs.
Reasonable expectations is fine. A culture of mediocrity is not. Low costs has made education more accesssible, yes, but it has also diluted the value of education as well. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but a degree only means so much...When I got out of school, the first job offer I got with a business degree was for $35,000. I held out until I got something for $40,000. I worked as a financial advisor for years, and the scope of my job was such that I had the opportunity to know the salaries of many different fields that my clients worked in.

I had many clients that worked as engineers at Bombardier. Most were making in the $60-$70k range. Good wages, no doubt, but I also had many city workers as clients, as well as STM bus drivers making $65k a year.

Today I work with clients from all over Canada. By far the best salaries tend to come from trade workers...Oil workers in Alberta, or construction related workers such as roofers or pipe layers. They all make over over $150k, and this is with no university education.

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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
The problem with what you're advocating is that when what you propose occurs, society tends to end up as an elitist society, where relatively small number of people of hold exclusive rights to knowledge and skills, like the church before the printing press and midieval guilds.
This isn't really a valid comparasion given that basic elementary and high school educations give most the ability to read and write, and learn a trade.

Quote:
I'm not a big fan of the present education system but I do think we're better off with the education and money more evenly distributed among society.

With our modern manufacturing, farming and knowledge systems your argument has serious flaws in it, the premise being that we can't afford to clothe, feed and house young people for an extra couple of years longer than our grandparents generation could.
All I'm saying is that those that we feed and clothe and house and educate should have a significant responsibility when it comes to making the most of the opportunities we give them.

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03-25-2012, 11:49 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
there is come cases that this wouldn't apply, but look at this :

http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/a.../19192229.aspx

EDUCATION
Education Salary Entries Average Gross Salary
Less Than High School 27 52,126 CAD
High School 158 55,783 CAD
Some College 526 58,498 CAD
Bachelors Degree 737 69,544 CAD
Masters Degree 264 82,457 CAD
Doctorate Degree 44 106,155 CAD
I have been in the job market and it is not as rosy as that chart indicates.

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03-26-2012, 12:02 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
2) It's intellectually dishonest of IRIS to include CEGEP students when they want to show that lower tuition fees increases participation (argument #7), but then exclude CEGEP students when comparing university spending between Quebec and other provinces. Per student spending is higher in Quebec universities because high-volume, low-level courses are given outside the system, in CEGEPs.
How exactly is it dishonest?
I fail to see.

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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
To be fair, you can't quote stats and then tell me to go find them when I ask where you got them...I'd say that's one of the first things you learn in university.
To be faire, I didn't quote -- Otherwise, I would have hyperlinked the source. I went from memory. I'll try to dig it later.


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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
There are many in those countries protesting free school because it is hurting their society more than helping it.
Source?

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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
When you make it accessible to everyone, you need to dumb it down for everyone too, and often the quality is impacted.
Why would you need to dumb it down?
We're asking for financial accessibility, not intellectual accessibility and vending machines selling degrees.


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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I had a nice chuckle when I saw the source of your article there...In any case, maybe because it's getting late I'm having a tough time reading, but I'm not really sure why it's being seen as a negative when universities are spending more towards research in medical and science related fields?
Glad to make you laugh

Give the paper a read. In essence, it states that the privatization of universities has made research heavily business-oriented. After law-related fees spent to commercialize research, it turns out that the net profits amount to ~$60k per univ, per year. Not so great, eh?


Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Realistically, do you feel that universities should be cutting their research budgets in order to keep tuition fees low? Who does that benefit exactly, aside from the students (and then, only the ones not receiving the grants).
I feel that putting the $ in the ever-increasing research budget is turning the University from an institution of teaching to a research farm. Mind you, a research farm that is bringing back very little to the table in terms of financial gains. Let the private sector take that risk, if it's a profitable one.

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03-26-2012, 01:24 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by raz123 View Post
As you wish.

With an inversed population pyramid, the guys at the bottom will be contributing to a massive number of elderly dependents. The more education we have, the better salaries we make, the more $ we pay back in taxes, the more $ the Gov has to spend in health, etc.

If you understand French, give the YT video I posted above a shot.

You're as hard headed as they come


EDIT: You know, this movement isn't asking for a larger taxpayer's $ contribution. This movement is arguing that a raise is not needed. This movement is saying that the money is there, and it's being mismanaged.
haha non, pas vraiment... you're just not trying hard enough

in a world of Corrupted politicians and baby boomer leaders (for the most part), saying "we'll do our part eventually" doesnt suffice...

Sure, I get that you're students and most of you cant contribute financially for the time being... but still, your best offer, so to speak, is "you'll see later"...

in these days and age, if you want people to believe and adhere to your cause you got to give them something tangible...

and I came that close to being conviced, really close, I followed closely the mouvement des indignés a few months ago, at first I thought it could be something special... but it didnt take long for all the participants to go back home la queue entre les jambes, and now everything is back to "normal", like nothing ever happened... (what, it's going to be different this time ? )

Sorry my friend, but if you think you can convince me and others by taking a walk on a sunny afternoon, by disturbing people who need to go to work to put food on their table or by saying "later"... you're wrong.

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03-26-2012, 07:51 AM
  #210
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I think that the CEUQ project, as advocated by the FEUQ, the CLASSE, and the TACEQ to a lesser extent, which is to implement an independent oversight agency for universities, would definitely help in making the freeze viable.

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Originally Posted by raz123 View Post
How exactly is it dishonest?
I fail to see.


Why would you need to dumb it down?
We're asking for financial accessibility, not intellectual accessibility and vending machines selling degrees.
1. Does having the high-volume, introductory-level courses given at cegeps help ensure high intellectual standards at the university level?

2. European countries whose universities are tuition-free are still held to similar standards to Quebecer ones.

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03-26-2012, 09:15 AM
  #211
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How dare we, taxpayers of tomorrow, ask that there be better management of public funds! How dare we say that the problem isn't a lack of money, but a mismanagement of it! This Gov clearly knows what it's doing!


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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
[...] or by saying "later"... you're wrong.
Damn it, I almost had you!

Yes, our secret plan is to get cheap degrees and then sit on welfare for the rest of our lives, never contributing back in taxes!

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03-26-2012, 01:14 PM
  #212
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How exactly is it dishonest?
I fail to see.
1) They want to show that "lower tuition = more participation". It doesn't work if you only look at Quebec universities because university participation is lower in Quebec vs other provinces (and obviously tuition is lower, so that would be lower tuition = lower participation). Oops. So they say "well the education system is different, and when you include CEGEPs, the argument works: Quebec postsecondary participation is higher than other provinces." (and obviously there's no tuition in CEGEP) Including CEGEPs helps their case, so they include them. (on that one, they are right)

2) Then they say "Quebec universities are overfunded because per student spending is higher than in other provinces". Why is that so? Because the education system is different! In Quebec, low-cost undergrad/general education teaching is outsourced out of universities and into CEGEPs. THAT's why per student spending is higher than the rest of the country. Including CEGEPs would hurt their case, so they don't include them. Dishonest. You can't use postsecondary participation in an argument and then use university spending in another. You have to use postsecondary spending too. They don't do that, not because they're stupid (they're pretty smart), but because it would hurt their case -- CEGEP spending is barely higher than high school spending and less than half of university spending (check their sources).

Look at #2 in another way: how is per student spending calculated? Total costs / # of students. A HUGE part of those total costs for universities is research. Elsewhere in Canada, when calculating per student spending, you get to spread those big research costs over all students who are enrolled in lower-level technical training or general education, i.e. CEGEP stuff. In Quebec, you DON'T get to spread those research costs to CEGEP students. Of course the resulting per student spending is going to be higher.

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03-26-2012, 02:57 PM
  #213
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Well, the CSU could not meet its quorum today and the vote to re-conduct the strike was not held. Not sure what that means, but it seems the strike at Concordia is over, unless your department's association voted to continue the strike, as mine did (JSA).

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03-26-2012, 03:31 PM
  #214
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Well, the CSU could not meet its quorum today and the vote to re-conduct the strike was not held. Not sure what that means, but it seems the strike at Concordia is over, unless your department's association voted to continue the strike, as mine did (JSA).
Usually when votes can not be held because of quorum, it means that the strike is automatically reconducted.

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03-26-2012, 03:55 PM
  #215
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Usually when votes can not be held because of quorum, it means that the strike is automatically reconducted.
depends on what they have voted

if they voted a Unlimited strike (geve general illimité (GGI)).
the strike dont have any expiration date. the only way to stop strike is to vote against.

so no quorom, no vote, strike aint expired. So there is strike.

If they voted a 1 week strike and they meet to renew the strike. The quorom not reached no voting, not renewed. Strike expired. back to school

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Originally Posted by Turtleneck Plek View Post
Well, the CSU could not meet its quorum today and the vote to re-conduct the strike was not held. Not sure what that means, but it seems the strike at Concordia is over, unless your department's association voted to continue the strike, as mine did (JSA).
look above..



my brother's cegep voted twice after the 1st was rejected.

they have a GGI and their 1st vote proposition was to wait the governement reaction before voting.

It was rejected.

they proposed to keep the strike for 2 week before voting.
it passed

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03-26-2012, 04:12 PM
  #216
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Concordia didn't vote for a GGI. They voted for a one-week strike, hence why I said the strike is over. I know my stuff.

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03-26-2012, 04:20 PM
  #217
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On a sidenote: the PHYSUM, on GGI, sent out ~15 students to City Hall to disturb Bachand's press conference, or ~10% of the entire mob at City Hall.

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Originally Posted by Turtleneck Plek View Post
Well, the CSU could not meet its quorum today and the vote to re-conduct the strike was not held. Not sure what that means, but it seems the strike at Concordia is over, unless your department's association voted to continue the strike, as mine did (JSA).
How much was the quorum?

But each association that didn't vote an UGS (unlimited general strike; grève générale illimitée/GGI in French) has to vote individually to go back to the picket lines so there may be departments back on strike over the next week or so.

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03-26-2012, 04:23 PM
  #218
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How much was the quorum?

But each association that didn't vote an UGS (unlimited general strike; grève générale illimitée in French) has to vote individually to go back to the picket lines so there may be departments back on strike over the next week or so.
495 students, they were missing a good 150. As I said, it's now up to departments to vote individually. My departmental association (Journalism Student Association) voted for another week of strike, so we're still on strike, but most of the university is no longer striking.

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03-26-2012, 05:00 PM
  #219
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University graduates give the province 35% of its budget, yet they only represent 15% of the taxpayer. % of the budget allowed to universities: 3.4%.

Extra revenue for the State per graduate on average: 250 000$.

One would think more education accessibility would benefit the entire society.

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03-26-2012, 05:08 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
University graduates give the province 35% of its budget, yet they only represent 15% of the taxpayer. % of the budget allowed to universities: 3.4%.

Extra revenue for the State per graduate on average: 250 000$.

One would think more education accessibility would benefit the entire society.
Education is already very accessible. It does benefit society, and that's why it's already (and will remain) heavily subsidized.

Also, it doesn't follow that lower or no tuition fees would automatically lead to higher attendance (it's not what has been observed elsewhere in Canada), nor that more people with higher education would automatically lead to extra revenue (it's not because more people with higher education are on the market that the demand for their work will also be there).

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03-26-2012, 05:11 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Education is already very accessible. It does benefit society, and that's why it's already (and will remain) heavily subsidized.

Also, it doesn't follow that lower or no tuition fees would automatically lead to higher attendance (it's not what has been observed elsewhere in Canada), nor that more people with higher education would automatically lead to extra revenue (it's not because more people with higher education are on the market that the demand for their work will also be there).
Really, Quebec and the rest of Canada have different approaches to education so there is no guarantee that what was observed in other provinces will also apply to Quebec.

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03-26-2012, 05:13 PM
  #222
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Really, Quebec and the rest of Canada have different approaches to education so there is no guarantee that what was observed in other provinces will also apply to Quebec.
Fair enough. What difference between the two systems would lead to a difference in how change in tuition cost would affect attendance?

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03-26-2012, 05:14 PM
  #223
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How dare we, taxpayers of tomorrow, ask that there be better management of public funds! How dare we say that the problem isn't a lack of money, but a mismanagement of it! This Gov clearly knows what it's doing!




Damn it, I almost had you!

Yes, our secret plan is to get cheap degrees and then sit on welfare for the rest of our lives, never contributing back in taxes!

you should try contributing intelligence... or go back to posting link since it seems to be the smartest things you can type.

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03-26-2012, 05:16 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
University graduates give the province 35% of its budget, yet they only represent 15% of the taxpayer. % of the budget allowed to universities: 3.4%.

Extra revenue for the State per graduate on average: 250 000$.

One would think more education accessibility would benefit the entire society.
Yup, and they also make more $ on average...


You would think an extra 1500 to make so much MORE money wouldnt be t hat much of a problem

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03-26-2012, 06:02 PM
  #225
InglewoodJack
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Châteauguay
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WELP, I hate to bust the debate, but I have a school-related question.

So I'm doing a group project in marketing, and my group is super unmotivated. I'm afraid it's going to show on my final mark, so I was wondering, how lenient are teachers to students who ask to be graded differently from the group? I hate to be that guy, but I'm tired of planning meetings, members fail to show up, set deadlines which aren't met, fail to hear from group members for weeks, sometimes months (some don't come to class?), etc. No one in the group looks like a freeloader, but I'm starting to think that not every section of the project will be... quality?
Anyways, I don't want to go up to my teacher and have her be like "LOL DEAL WITH IT YOU STUPID FIRST YEAR", so has anyone ever had to ask a teacher to be marked separately from the group?
No, this project is not one of those "mark your name on your contributions, you get a group and individual mark".

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