When trying to blame the demise of the Habs on a GM, let's not let Serge Savard off the hook entirely either. He did win 2 Cups, but accelerated the run into mediocrity with a few terrible moves like:
-Chelios for Savard - Denis was eventually dispatched to the Lightning for no return, this was far worse than the Gomez trade IMO
-Desjardins, LeClair, Dionne for Recchi - didn't work out so well
-Guy Carbonneau for Jim Montgomery - yes this actually happened
-Bellows for Marc Bureau - Bellows got more points with the Lightning the following season than Bureau got in 3 years for the Habs
-Lebeau for Tugnutt - before Tugnutt was anywhere close to decent
-Muller & Schneider for Turgeon & Malakhov - Turgeon was the best player at that point, but the D really suffered losing Schneider after Desjardins was gone too
And let's not forget his draft record. Here's his first round picks:
Alfie Turcotte
Petr Svoboda
Shayne Corson
Jose Charbonneau
Tom Chorske
Mark Pederson
Andrew Cassels
Eric Charron
Lindsay Vallis
Turner Stevenson
Brent Bilodeau
David Wilkie
Saku Koivu
Brad Brown
Terry Ryan
I count 3 decent NHL'ers out of 15 first round picks.
He also drafted Roy and Richer in the same draft as Corson.
When trying to blame the demise of the Habs on a GM, let's not let Serge Savard off the hook entirely either. He did win 2 Cups, but accelerated the run into mediocrity with a few terrible moves like:
-Chelios for Savard - Denis was eventually dispatched to the Lightning for no return, this was far worse than the Gomez trade IMO
-Desjardins, LeClair, Dionne for Recchi - didn't work out so well
-Guy Carbonneau for Jim Montgomery - yes this actually happened
-Bellows for Marc Bureau - Bellows got more points with the Lightning the following season than Bureau got in 3 years for the Habs
-Lebeau for Tugnutt - before Tugnutt was anywhere close to decent
-Muller & Schneider for Turgeon & Malakhov - Turgeon was the best player at that point, but the D really suffered losing Schneider after Desjardins was gone too
And let's not forget his draft record. Here's his first round picks:
Alfie Turcotte
Petr Svoboda
Shayne Corson
Jose Charbonneau
Tom Chorske
Mark Pederson
Andrew Cassels
Eric Charron
Lindsay Vallis
Turner Stevenson
Brent Bilodeau
David Wilkie
Saku Koivu
Brad Brown
Terry Ryan
I count 3 decent NHL'ers out of 15 first round picks.
Savard made a lot of good trades too. You are omitting them for some reason? Richer for Muller was a steal. Kordic for Courtnal was one of best trades in our history. Bobby Smith for 2 average players. Roy, LeClair, Schneider, Odelein, all excellent draft picks. Houle maybe won 1 out of 10 trades.
Grundman is in the discussion because of Wickenheiser?
Doug Wickenheiser was big, strong, a center and had just scored 89 goals and 170 points in the WHL. He looked a damn good bet!
Denis Savard was a great choice and in fact had slightly better number (181 points but significantly less goals). But he had enough question marks that he wasn't even second overall but third choice of the draft. He was smaller, a wingman, had posted his numbers in a slightly weaker league etc. He seemed to have a bit less value. In hindsight, he had the runaway best career of the draft but I don't see how picking Doug was dumb given what he had shown. Today's crowd would scream bloody murder if we let passed someone like him at the draft ('Big center! Big Center! Arg! *stroke*).
When you get pocket aces preflop, you gotta bet them. If pocket kings break them, so be it, you still can't second guess your bet.
Houle was the worst, no Question. Gainey was actually above average in his first few years. He did improve the team a lot from the Houle mess. Then it sadly went downhill. We all know the events it coincided with so I'll cut him a break.
Gauthier on the other hand might be solidifying his hold on the number two spot.
I think he gets a pass on Wickenheiser too. A lot of folks haven't forgiven him for it though.
Grundman though should get roasted for what he did to Guy Lafleur. We bring in Lemaire with his defensive system and they basically alienate Lafleur as he no longer fits on the team. They'd just bench him and the crowd would be screaming Guy to no avail.
Instead of trading him and cashing in on what was still a very valuable asset, we drove him into retirement. For political reasons they wanted Lafleur to retire a Hab (whether he wanted to retire or not) and basically forced it on him. So we lose him for nothing and then watch him come back four years later as a point per game player. THAT was dumb.
When you look back on the team we had in the 70s and what we got in return for those guys when they left it was shameful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by idk
Houle. Far and away Houle is the worst GM in recent history. You can discuss the reasons behind this all you want (little experience, meddling upper management) but the fact remains that Houle took a team that had been a contender for for at least two decades and systematically destroyed it. Even setting aside the Roy trade - Odelein for a broken down Richer? Turgeon, Fitzpatrick and Conroy for a broken down Corson and Murray Baron? Bure for Zalapski and Hoglund? Brashear for Cullimore? Acquiring Juha Lind for Scott Thornton (not an offensive dynamo himself, but he would score in his next season more than Juha Lind scored in the rest of his career)? A first round pick (10th overall) for a Trevor Linden that hadn't broken 20 goals in four years?
Sorry - we can bemoan the Gomez signing and the Kaberle trade but those have nothing, nothing on the farce that was the Rejean Houle era.
If you limit it to our history I think you're right. Maybe I should create a new poll with Houle vs. JFJ vs. Milbury vs. Stellick... all horrific GMs.
This is only the latest of a series that does an elimination style playoff of bad GMs. Note that this one only covers post-lockout, so the likes of Houle are not included.
This is only the latest of a series that does an elimination style playoff of bad GMs. Note that this one only covers post-lockout, so the likes of Houle are not included.
That is awesome. It's like a fight club for bad GMs.
Edit: Tallon actually forgot to tender offer sheets to RFAs? Holy smokes... And Ferguson vs. Millbury will be epic. Pretty sure Mad Mike is going to take it though. Probably the worst GM in history.
Edit again:So... the Islanders are STILL playing Yashin 2.2 million not to play until 2015?
Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 03-23-2012 at 09:43 AM.
This is only the latest of a series that does an elimination style playoff of bad GMs. Note that this one only covers post-lockout, so the likes of Houle are not included.
Interesting but Tallon should not be there he is a pretty decent GM and it is missing Houle.
When trying to blame the demise of the Habs on a GM, let's not let Serge Savard off the hook entirely either. He did win 2 Cups, but accelerated the run into mediocrity with a few terrible moves like:
-Chelios for Savard - Denis was eventually dispatched to the Lightning for no return, this was far worse than the Gomez trade IMO
-Desjardins, LeClair, Dionne for Recchi - didn't work out so well
-Guy Carbonneau for Jim Montgomery - yes this actually happened
-Bellows for Marc Bureau - Bellows got more points with the Lightning the following season than Bureau got in 3 years for the Habs
-Lebeau for Tugnutt - before Tugnutt was anywhere close to decent
-Muller & Schneider for Turgeon & Malakhov - Turgeon was the best player at that point, but the D really suffered losing Schneider after Desjardins was gone too
And let's not forget his draft record. Here's his first round picks:
Alfie Turcotte
Petr Svoboda
Shayne Corson
Jose Charbonneau
Tom Chorske
Mark Pederson
Andrew Cassels
Eric Charron
Lindsay Vallis
Turner Stevenson
Brent Bilodeau
David Wilkie
Saku Koivu
Brad Brown
Terry Ryan
I count 3 decent NHL'ers out of 15 first round picks.
God... this thread is brining back horrible memories
Corson and Koivu were great... Cassels too (732 points in 1015 NHL games)
Vallis? Charbonneau? Ryan?
I am not as down on Gainey as most (He was just too effective as a championship player in the Glory Years).
I've said it before, he gambled that Gomez had 5 great years left in him... and lost the bet.
Ribero had to go. Definitely a cancer.
Last edited by Born in 1909: 03-23-2012 at 10:32 AM.
I voted for Houle. Others made some trades that would go in the best trades articles. Savard and Gainey fall in that category. Hard to find good trades from Houle. Except maybe the Hackett Weinrich Naseradine for Thibault Brown Manson.
As a GM Houle earned his nickname of Ragin Foule. The only worst GM I can see in hockey history is Mad Mike Milbury.
Ribeiro was one of our leading scorers making 1.8M at the time.. where JN made 2.2 and wasn't even close to an impact player. In a cap world it made no sense.
Higgins, Mcdonagh and company for Gomez is completely stupid.. and everyone on this board knew it the moment the trade happened.. I remember being livid that day.
Why didn't gainey use his head?
The only good thing Gainey did for me was bring in Kovalev for Balej and a 3rd.
I voted for Houle. Others made some trades that would go in the best trades articles. Savard and Gainey fall in that category. Hard to find good trades from Houle. Except maybe the Hackett Weinrich Naseradine for Thibault Brown Manson.
As a GM Houle earned his nickname of Ragin Foule. The only worst GM I can see in hockey history is Mad Mike Milbury.
Damphousse was a bad trade. Yet, I will not hold a GM responsible for bad draft picks. That's all on the head scout. So getting a 1st that was pretty good. And if that 1st would have been Orpik.....or Volchenkov...Williams to an extent or a few others, that would have sweeten the deal. But it was a mistake to let Damphousse go.
Interesting but Tallon should not be there he is a pretty decent GM and it is missing Houle.
Houle is out as the whole thing is post-lockout, and Tallon did a bunch of doozy mistakes. Some people over there thought he should have been seeded higher for such beauties as failing to get qualifying offers to RFAs in time, forcing the club to pay them as UFAs.
Houle is out as the whole thing is post-lockout, and Tallon did a bunch of doozy mistakes. Some people over there thought he should have been seeded higher for such beauties as failing to get qualifying offers to RFAs in time, forcing the club to pay them as UFAs.
True but I think a lot of what he has done in Florida has made up for that.
Ribeiro was one of our leading scorers making 1.8M at the time.. where JN made 2.2 and wasn't even close to an impact player. In a cap world it made no sense.
Higgins, Mcdonagh and company for Gomez is completely stupid.. and everyone on this board knew it the moment the trade happened.. I remember being livid that day.
Why didn't gainey use his head?
The only good thing Gainey did for me was bring in Kovalev for Balej and a 3rd.
But he did something good! Going back to the Serge Savard era every GM save one has made a deal that you can say we were clear cut winners on. Savard has a couple - Kordic and a sixth for Courtnall. Richer and Chorske for Muller and Melanson. Corson, Vujtek and Gilchrist for Damphousse and a fourth. Andre Savard had a short tenure, but he still managed to move a limping Linden, Zubrus and a second for Zednik, Bulis and a first (Perezhogin). Gainey has the Kovalev trade, the gorges trade and the Huet trade. Gautheir has the Gill for a second and a feel-good story. But Houle?
Best trade was either Malahkov to the Devils (which we didn't outright win, but was better for us long term with the younger guy) and the Thibault trade (which again wasn't an outright win so much as not an absolute disaster).
True but I think a lot of what he has done in Florida has made up for that.
Florida is actually not very good. Their non-shootout goal-differential is -15 (-19 if you cut out empty-netters) -- compare to Montreal's -11/-5. Their 5-on-5 goal ratio is in the bottom 5 of the league. And they do this playing the weakest division in hockey.
And Tallon invested tons of money in UFAs to get them there. The comment I made during the off-season is that he'd spent a crapton of money building the 10th-best team in the East. And probably would have been there in the standings save that the Caps, the Habs, and the Bolts were better clubs that spectacularly imploded for various reasons.
Their underlying numbers are okay, but it's not a great team.
When trying to blame the demise of the Habs on a GM, let's not let Serge Savard off the hook entirely either. He did win 2 Cups, but accelerated the run into mediocrity with a few terrible moves like:
-Chelios for Savard - Denis was eventually dispatched to the Lightning for no return, this was far worse than the Gomez trade IMO
-Desjardins, LeClair, Dionne for Recchi - didn't work out so well
-Guy Carbonneau for Jim Montgomery - yes this actually happened
-Bellows for Marc Bureau - Bellows got more points with the Lightning the following season than Bureau got in 3 years for the Habs
-Lebeau for Tugnutt - before Tugnutt was anywhere close to decent
-Muller & Schneider for Turgeon & Malakhov - Turgeon was the best player at that point, but the D really suffered losing Schneider after Desjardins was gone too
And let's not forget his draft record. Here's his first round picks:
Alfie Turcotte
Petr Svoboda
Shayne Corson
Jose Charbonneau
Tom Chorske
Mark Pederson
Andrew Cassels
Eric Charron
Lindsay Vallis
Turner Stevenson
Brent Bilodeau
David Wilkie
Saku Koivu
Brad Brown
Terry Ryan
I count 3 decent NHL'ers out of 15 first round picks.
1984 and 1987 were two of the best drafts by any team ever...both under Savard.
1984 and 1987 were two of the best drafts by any team ever...both under Savard.
1984:
Svoboda
Corson
Roy
Richer
1987
Cassels
Desjardins
Leclair
Schneider
Years ago the Hockey News did a review of the best drafting GMs, based on how many players they generated that played 80 NHL games (40 for goalies.) Savard and Sinden were basically in a class by themselves among their peers. Interestingly, Bowman's hit rate in Buff was off the charts but he didn't last long enough to qualify for their ranking.
Savard's first round picks were often busts, but he worked the rest of the draft exceptionally well (or his scouts did.) His trades were sometimes terrible, but he made a lot of great moves too. Most importantly, he put together competitive teams with skill, size and grit the entire time he was in charge. I think he's badly underrated. He was actually a top-tier GM, in hindsight. Really, really good.
The guy who hired Houle is more incompetent than Houle himself.
But yeah, Houle, by a landslide.
That would be Ron Corey, who is also responsible for the carousel of captains (including Chelios). He pretty much ran off everyone who didn't act like Jean Beliveau.
That is awesome. It's like a fight club for bad GMs.
