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A Look Ahead: 2012 NHL Entry Draft Pt. 2

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03-29-2012, 02:19 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by forthewild View Post
murray was injured for a good bit there and his team is beyond ****ing bad, you know unless you are bobby ****ing orr you need a good group for forwards to help you as a defenseman.

his is the best dman available and the one with the highest ceiling and the one who is most likely to reach his ceiling. i see him going number 2 to eddy, but if he is there when we pick we take him with a grin on our face.

he is smart, moves the puck, has offense him and brodin in 3 years could be hanging 25 min a game making sure the other team is shut down, you have that with the forward group we could have and we could be a dangerous team to play against.
Not having other talent on the team goes a ways, but how much talent did Burns have around him last season? He still managed to put up career highs in goals, assists, and points. It was more or less a contract year for him, but it's draft year for Murray and he hasn't shown the ability to step up and be a game breaker. I'm sure he'll be a good #2 or #3 defender in the NHL eventually, but despite being given a huge chance, he hasn't shown the ability to step up and be the sort of guy you have to be to be an NHL #1. He doesn't have that game changing ability.

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03-29-2012, 02:19 PM
  #277
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Link to the Ryan Murray thread in the Prospects Forum.

There's good points to select both Dumba and Murray in this thread, but if I had to choose I'd go with Murray. Yes, there's a chance that Murray could turn into a Nick Schultz, but there's also a chance he turns into an Alex Pietrangelo. For the record though, I won't be disappointed if we get Dumba, I'd just prefer Murray.

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03-29-2012, 02:21 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by forthewild View Post
murray was injured for a good bit there and his team is beyond ****ing bad, you know unless you are bobby ****ing orr you need a good group for forwards to help you as a defenseman.

his is the best dman available and the one with the highest ceiling and the one who is most likely to reach his ceiling. i see him going number 2 to eddy, but if he is there when we pick we take him with a grin on our face.

he is smart, moves the puck, has offense him and brodin in 3 years could be hanging 25 min a game making sure the other team is shut down, you have that with the forward group we could have and we could be a dangerous team to play against.
Yep.

Murray, Brodin, and Scandella would be an awesome top-half of a blueline for a very, very long time.

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03-29-2012, 02:58 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
Not having other talent on the team goes a ways, but how much talent did Burns have around him last season? He still managed to put up career highs in goals, assists, and points. It was more or less a contract year for him, but it's draft year for Murray and he hasn't shown the ability to step up and be a game breaker. I'm sure he'll be a good #2 or #3 defender in the NHL eventually, but despite being given a huge chance, he hasn't shown the ability to step up and be the sort of guy you have to be to be an NHL #1. He doesn't have that game changing ability.
Burns actually had a decent team for first half of the year and slowed down quite a bit the 2nd half, also an NHL team is a bit different then a WHL team where most players will be lucky to play in a Croatian B league after they are no longer eligible to play there.

Murray has a legit and attainable chance to be a number 1 guy. you can hate on him all you want because "stats" but he is a far better and more complete player then dumba. His hockey iq is high, his sense is high, his skating is amazing, his decision making is great and he even has some offensive tools to develop.

this almost feels like a "brodin can't score why did we pick him over x" from last year. Murray is hands down the best dman in the draft and he showed it, the only way Everett scored in the playoffs was if Murray was doing it.

Also if Dumba is this "amazing talent" why did his team miss the playoffs? yeah because they ****ing sucked. saying "burns had a career year on NHL team" to compare a prospect who isn't anything like Burns is questionable logic.

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03-29-2012, 03:01 PM
  #280
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Also this "we need a number 1 dman" how many teams in the NHL have legit number 1 dman vs how many have a number 1 dman on their team who is a good dman but not elite.

it's all reminiscent of the "we need a number 1 center" when we ****ing have one, Murray would be an amazing now and future addition to our team.

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03-29-2012, 03:07 PM
  #281
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It may be worth noting, on Murray, that while his total points project to be similar to last year, his goals would increase by a lot. 6 goals in 70 games last year vs. 9 in 36 this year. This would mean that his assists would be way below last year's total, which kind of supports the "lack of surrounding talent" argument. I don't know, as of now, I think I'd be happy with either Murray or Galchenyuk. Those would be my 1a and 1b right now.

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03-29-2012, 03:09 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Not that this is a major consideration, but I think it is easier to sell the Wild to Parise and Suter if we drafted Galchenyuk over say Murray or Dumba.

"Hey Parise, how would you like to play with Koivu, Granlund, or Galchenyuk for the next 8 years?"

"Hey, Suter, you'll get all the minutes you want, have a decent young supporting cast behind you, and play with a really impressive group of forwards."
Hey Parise, how would you like to play for [insert Pittsburgh roster] or [insert Boston roster] or [insert Philadelphia roster] etc...

Realistically, our roster isn't going to persuade any high profile free-agent players.

Also, travel in the West sucks when compared to the East.

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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
I like how Dumba would look next to Brodin, but don't really like him as a player. I think he's a perfect fit, but just don't care for him. Also, his size terrifies me (unless he's grown a bit). I'm not a fan of Murray. He's way too defense first, and I don't want to just assume he'll suddenly "get over that" if we bring him in.
I completely agree. Dumba would compliment Brodin, but I'm not a huge fan of his game, especially when he's not particularly large. How's he going to fair against a 6'4" 215lb power-forward? Not very well. I could also see his game leaving him vulnerable to injuries in the future.

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03-29-2012, 03:16 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by forthewild View Post
Burns actually had a decent team for first half of the year and slowed down quite a bit the 2nd half, also an NHL team is a bit different then a WHL team where most players will be lucky to play in a Croatian B league after they are no longer eligible to play there.

Murray has a legit and attainable chance to be a number 1 guy. you can hate on him all you want because "stats" but he is a far better and more complete player then dumba. His hockey iq is high, his sense is high, his skating is amazing, his decision making is great and he even has some offensive tools to develop.

this almost feels like a "brodin can't score why did we pick him over x" from last year. Murray is hands down the best dman in the draft and he showed it, the only way Everett scored in the playoffs was if Murray was doing it.

Also if Dumba is this "amazing talent" why did his team miss the playoffs? yeah because they ****ing sucked. saying "burns had a career year on NHL team" to compare a prospect who isn't anything like Burns is questionable logic.
Terrible strawman is terrible.


Just watch Murray play. That's all it takes.

He's a defense first, defense minded, defenseman, who plays defense, for the sake of defense. His theoretical ability to completely and utterly change the focus, direction, and intent of his entire game may exist. But with Murray, you're taking a defensive defenseman who may have the potential to add some offense, and trying to force him to be a different player. It could work. It could be fantastic, but that's a case of drafting a player for different reasons than where they're ranked. If you're planning on doing that, you had better rank Reinhart above him because it's the exact same story there, except Reinhart has even greater physical tools to work with.

The fact of the matter is, Murray is not far and away better than the other defensemen in this draft. If you want pure offense, Rielly is far and away the best at that. If you want pure physicality, look no further than Dumba. If you want size, build, and physical features which can't be taught, Reinhart is your man. Murray is a solid 2-way guy who looks at his own end first. He's a Suter type, not a Doughty, Weber, or Chara. Maybe one day he could jump over the hump and actually develop his offensive game. He has the tools to work with. Right now he doesn't have his head there. Like Scandella, he sees his defensive responsibility first, second, and probably third. If the offensive opportunity is there for him, he might jump on it, but not if it gives away protection on the back end. If we want a pure #1 defenseman, we need to select a guy who's willing to jump into the offensive play, even though a bobbled puck means an odd man rush the other way. We need a guy who's going to rush it up into the offensive zone without worrying too heavily if he can get back. We need the guy who rips a shot from the point instead of pushing a fancy pass down to his winger.

Maybe Murray can adapt that into his game, but he hasn't yet, and relying upon changing the way he views the ice is an extremely tenuous position. He could be Suter, or he could be Schultz. If he can't be a difference maker on his current team at the CHL level, why would we think he's suddenly going to be one in the NHL?

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03-29-2012, 03:23 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
Terrible strawman is terrible.


Just watch Murray play. That's all it takes.

He's a defense first, defense minded, defenseman, who plays defense, for the sake of defense. His theoretical ability to completely and utterly change the focus, direction, and intent of his entire game may exist. But with Murray, you're taking a defensive defenseman who may have the potential to add some offense, and trying to force him to be a different player. It could work. It could be fantastic, but that's a case of drafting a player for different reasons than where they're ranked. If you're planning on doing that, you had better rank Reinhart above him because it's the exact same story there, except Reinhart has even greater physical tools to work with.

The fact of the matter is, Murray is not far and away better than the other defensemen in this draft. If you want pure offense, Rielly is far and away the best at that. If you want pure physicality, look no further than Dumba. If you want size, build, and physical features which can't be taught, Reinhart is your man. Murray is a solid 2-way guy who looks at his own end first. He's a Suter type, not a Doughty, Weber, or Chara. Maybe one day he could jump over the hump and actually develop his offensive game. He has the tools to work with. Right now he doesn't have his head there. Like Scandella, he sees his defensive responsibility first, second, and probably third. If the offensive opportunity is there for him, he might jump on it, but not if it gives away protection on the back end. If we want a pure #1 defenseman, we need to select a guy who's willing to jump into the offensive play, even though a bobbled puck means an odd man rush the other way. We need a guy who's going to rush it up into the offensive zone without worrying too heavily if he can get back. We need the guy who rips a shot from the point instead of pushing a fancy pass down to his winger.

Maybe Murray can adapt that into his game, but he hasn't yet, and relying upon changing the way he views the ice is an extremely tenuous position. He could be Suter, or he could be Schultz. If he can't be a difference maker on his current team at the CHL level, why would we think he's suddenly going to be one in the NHL?
I'm not going to argue with anything else you said, because a lot of it makes sense. I haven't watched a lot of Murray's games (except the WJC semi against Russia which was forgetable) so I'll defer to you as you appear to have seen a lot of his games. However, I chuckled at the bolded portion, because that can be said about 99.9% of all prospects ever drafted.

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03-29-2012, 03:33 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
I'm not going to argue with anything else you said, because a lot of it makes sense. I haven't watched a lot of Murray's games (except the WJC semi against Russia which was forgetable) so I'll defer to you as you appear to have seen a lot of his games. However, I chuckled at the bolded portion, because that can be said about 99.9% of all prospects ever drafted.
In the general sense, yes. But it's a bit different with what I'm trying to say. Murray's floor is very very high. He will be an NHL defenseman. He will almost certainly be a top 4 defenseman. The question then is "will he be a top pairing guy" followed by "will he be a #1 guy?" To me, the answer to the first question is "maybe" while the answer to the second one is "no." He's ranked as high as he is not for his ceiling, but for his floor.

Like Schultz, he's a guy who thinks about the responsibility in his own end first, and everything else comes way after. Schultz put up 11 goals and 33 assists on a terrible WHL team in his draft year, although he didn't have the same success the year prior. They're about the same size, and were even both born in SK and nearly the same month 8/25 vs 9/27. A better Schultz is what I expect out of him, and that still only makes him a #2 guy. Sure, he could go all Suter on us, but I'd say it would be a great mistake to assume he will.

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03-29-2012, 03:58 PM
  #286
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Well his coach does compare him to Ray Bourque and his skating has been compared to Scott Niedermayer. I honestly don't think he's going to be as "bad" as Schultz.

There's parts that worry me but so much good that I don't think anyone can draw a conclusion right now, especially since we're desk jockeys and not pro scouts.

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03-29-2012, 04:16 PM
  #287
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You could say... We're in no hurry to pick Murray.

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03-29-2012, 04:16 PM
  #288
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Honestly, I rather have a defense like Detroit, full of smart, puck-movers, than a blueline filled with offensive wizards. If you want a team that always has the puck, you build it through guys like Brodin and Murray.

I mean, does Lindstrom have an explosive shot, dazzling hands, or lightening feet?

No.

He just has the most brilliant defenseman mind to play the game in the last 20 years. He grasped the idea that Dmen aren't just forwards who skate backwards from time to time. He understood that if you just make the right play 95% of the time, you keep control of the puck, which creates offense, which creates points for you.

I'm not saying Brodin or Murray is Lindstrom 2.0. But that's why you draft very smart Dmen. They create offense just by being on the ice.

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03-29-2012, 04:25 PM
  #289
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Has been highly touted and scouted for years, already representing Canada at three major U-18 tournaments and this year's WJC. Was barely 15 when he made his WHL debut in the 2008-09 WHL playoffs. Strengths: A real 'Steady Eddie' on the blue line; rarely makes a mistake and displays a poise well beyond his years. Smart, dependable rearguard who will be on the ice protecting leads at the end of games. Strong skater with a powerful stride. A team leader with high character. He moves the puck with short, accurate passes. Hard to beat one-on-one. Weaknesses: He's not a punishing guy who will provide a physical presence while his offensive skills may be limited and he may be more of a stay-at home defender. NHL upside: A No. 2 or No. 3 defenceman with leadership qualities who will be relied upon to shut down team's top players, kill penalties and protect leads.
This does sound exactly like Schultz. When you're picking in the top-5, you don't pick stay-at-home defenders. You just don't. When you do, you risk ending up with a Cam Barker type scenario.

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03-29-2012, 04:29 PM
  #290
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Squidz you say he thinks defense firat, second third but call him a two way in the same sentance?

Also if he is defense first, second, third why did he score 3/6 goals for his team in the playoffa and have 5/6 piloints?

Murray is a two way dman who is excellent in his own zone and can contribute offensively. Ryan murphy was a pure offense guy and he went after 3 two way dman who are better then him.

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03-29-2012, 04:33 PM
  #291
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TSN


This does sound exactly like Schultz. When you're picking in the top-5, you don't pick stay-at-home defenders. You just don't. When you do, you risk ending up with a Cam Barker type scenario.
Barker was nearly a PPG in the WHL, I thought he was hyped as an offensive Dman, not a stay at home guy.

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03-29-2012, 04:47 PM
  #292
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Barker was nearly a PPG in the WHL, I thought he was hyped as an offensive Dman, not a stay at home guy.
He was.

Murray is the opposite of Barker. Barker was hyped as the next Chris Pronger. Scouts looked at his size, and he was pretty good at using it at the junior level, where the game was a lot slower and he was way more physical. And then they looked at his shot, and the guy had a complete cannon. A huge bomb from the blueline. They added those two together and thought he could pick up the rest.

Murray is the opposite. He plays the high-speed game.

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03-29-2012, 04:47 PM
  #293
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Honestly, I rather have a defense like Detroit, full of smart, puck-movers, than a blueline filled with offensive wizards. If you want a team that always has the puck, you build it through guys like Brodin and Murray.

I mean, does Lidstrom have an explosive shot, dazzling hands, or lightening feet?

No.

He just has the most brilliant defenseman mind to play the game in the last 20 years. He grasped the idea that Dmen aren't just forwards who skate backwards from time to time. He understood that if you just make the right play 95% of the time, you keep control of the puck, which creates offense, which creates points for you.

I'm not saying Brodin or Murray is Lidstrom 2.0. But that's why you draft very smart Dmen. They create offense just by being on the ice.
I agree very much with this, Brodin's play, especially at the WJC was incredibly cerebral and on another level completely compared to the other players on the ice, very very lidstrom-esque. Not to say he will be that good but having seen a lot of prospects throughout the past decade, Brodin, to me, embodies the talent and understanding of the game of an elite defender. His game also reminds me a lot of Koivu in that its about making the right decision all the time, while that may not be flashy its incredibly effective when the whole team plays that style. Murray would just add to that smart decision making in my opinion and the kid is definitely a stud, would love to get him.

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03-29-2012, 04:50 PM
  #294
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Barker was nearly a PPG in the WHL, I thought he was hyped as an offensive Dman, not a stay at home guy.
Barker looks clueless on the ice where murray has the iq to go with.his amazing skating, also barker cant skate well at all.

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03-29-2012, 04:52 PM
  #295
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Look, I've been a defender on a bad team. There is not much you can do. You can't "go offensive". There is never a good time. Because the moment you take the puck up, you just have a forward or two get confused and stand in no-man's land, trying to figure out how he's supposed to cover for you. They don't rush with you and they don't get back.

So, from an offensive stand-point, you are at the same position or even worse than if you had just passed the puck to the forwards. And then from a defensive standpoint, you are in a much worse scenario, but there is a good chance a 3 vs. 1 is going back the other direction if you lose possession.

All you can do in those situations is just play a simple game and hope your forwards chip in enough goals for you to win.

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03-29-2012, 04:59 PM
  #296
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I mean, does Lindstrom have an explosive shot, dazzling hands, or lightning feet?
He's rarely the flashiest guy, but Lidstrom has amazing physical skills. Don't sell him short. His skating, shooting, and puck handling skills are all excellent. His unmatched hockey sense simply puts all that together.

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03-29-2012, 05:05 PM
  #297
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Squidz you say he thinks defense firat, second third but call him a two way in the same sentance?

Also if he is defense first, second, third why did he score 3/6 goals for his team in the playoffa and have 5/6 piloints?

Murray is a two way dman who is excellent in his own zone and can contribute offensively. Ryan murphy was a pure offense guy and he went after 3 two way dman who are better then him.
They're not mutually exclusive. He thinks defense, and is able to chip in offensively, but only when it doesn't sacrifice his defense. He's two-way in the sense that Brodin is two-way, plays defense-defense-defense-first but contributes when the team is in the offensive zone. Nick Schultz is his floor. Nick Schultz + first pass is his expectation. Suter is his ceiling.

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03-29-2012, 05:08 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Look, I've been a defender on a bad team. There is not much you can do. You can't "go offensive". There is never a good time. Because the moment you take the puck up, you just have a forward or two get confused and stand in no-man's land, trying to figure out how he's supposed to cover for you. They don't rush with you and they don't get back.

So, from an offensive stand-point, you are at the same position or even worse than if you had just passed the puck to the forwards. And then from a defensive standpoint, you are in a much worse scenario, but there is a good chance a 3 vs. 1 is going back the other direction if you lose possession.

All you can do in those situations is just play a simple game and hope your forwards chip in enough goals for you to win.
Yep, why I like Murray as a player is his ability to make plays in his own zone, he's shifty enough to beat the forechecker 1 on 1 and actually get off good crisp passes to the open man up ice. That kind of ability is highly sought after in the NHL and it creates its own offense. Dan Boyle is a prime example of a guy who didn't have all world skill but he just knew how to beat a single guy, in his own zone and on the offensive blueline and find his skill guys.

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03-29-2012, 05:34 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
They're not mutually exclusive. He thinks defense, and is able to chip in offensively, but only when it doesn't sacrifice his defense. He's two-way in the sense that Brodin is two-way, plays defense-defense-defense-first but contributes when the team is in the offensive zone. Nick Schultz is his floor. Nick Schultz + first pass is his expectation. Suter is his ceiling.
Both murray and brodin have somerhing that schultz hasnt ever had and thats thie iq, schultz was brain dead outside our blue line, neither brodin nor murray are.

Murray may focus on defense because you need to stop the opponent from scorimg to win the game, but he is no slouch when it comes to offense either.

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03-29-2012, 06:15 PM
  #300
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Both murray and brodin have somerhing that schultz hasnt ever had and thats thie iq, schultz was brain dead outside our blue line, neither brodin nor murray are.

Murray may focus on defense because you need to stop the opponent from scorimg to win the game, but he is no slouch when it comes to offense either.
Have you seen Schultz in Edmonton? He's jumping into the play and actually showing some offense. Too bad his shot is terrible.

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