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Kessel is a franchise player

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Old
03-23-2012, 11:42 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattVenca View Post
Lockerrom comment: So Ovechkin isn't a franchise player?

Physical comment: I'm not comparing Kess to Gretzky here. Just saying. If playing physical is the criteria, then Gretzky wasn't a franchise player either.

Nobody is saying Phil Kessel is a captain. Nobody is saying Phil Kessel is a power forward.

I'm saying, Phil Kessel is a franchise player.
No he is not. Thank you for proving my point. The Capitals will never win a cup with Ovechkin as their captain/franchise player.

I think another reason why we are disagreeing on this is that you think that the franchise player doesn't need to be captain, which IMO is ludicrous.

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03-23-2012, 11:42 AM
  #27
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imo kessel is a 1b franchise player. given that 1a franchise player and we will see some magic.

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03-23-2012, 11:43 AM
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A guy that keeps popping up in my head when I think of Kessel is Heatley. Supremely talented wingers, gift to score goals, have had seasons near the top in the scoring race, etc.

I wouldn't classify either as franchise players though. That's not a knock against them. I just view them more as excellent sidekicks as opposed to "the man".

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Old
03-23-2012, 11:43 AM
  #29
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A star player and solid complimentary top liner? absolutely. But a franchise player? Hell no. he has the talent to be one, but he lacks commitment, passion and strong drive that most franchise player possesses.

A franchise player is a serious label to consider giving one, and there are only a handful of few I would consider as a franchise player, Sundin was a solid example of a franchsie player who did it all on consistent except for the main hardware.

IMO, what u see with Kessel now is what u get, he will never be a true franchise player. At times, he is great when he is on his game but he is also one of the most frustrating player in the game when he doesn't care.

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03-23-2012, 11:43 AM
  #30
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What's this, a rational thread about Kessel? Nonsense, we don't need a young forward who's already top 5 in the world production wise. That's too good for the Leafs, only other teams are allowed to have franchise players.

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03-23-2012, 11:44 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eb View Post
I can see your point.

First off, a franchise player needs to be a lockerroom guy.

Second off, I see what you mean by him getting frustrating by losing all the time, but wouldn't you think if he was that pissed off, and was that good of a leader on the ice, then he would battle along the boards more and play more physical? Heck, back check more? Yes, he has gotten better as you stated above about his defensive play but he is nowhere near a franchise player.
A franchise is player who give it his all, people love and praise kulemin because of his on-ice work but as burke said, he wouldn't be able to lead a pack of bees to the bee-hive if it was in the lockerroom.

As they say Actions speak louder than words, and kessel does that without a doubt.

He's 4th in the point race in a non-stacked team. Compare Penguins, Flyers, Tampa Bay, Ottawa(ugh i hate to mention it but they have a good top six in spezza and michalek with alfie), Devils and Chicago?

That in my eye defines a franchise player, he found a top line player in lupul finally after a long time, now imagine him with a proper first line center, not a third liner center in a good team who has chemistry with him.

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03-23-2012, 11:45 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Kessel is an elite goal scorer and not a bad play maker. But it is hard to give a player without any physical element to his game and one who bails on contact the franchise label. If he was a franchise player Boston would have kept him around.
Kessel, as a winger, has more assists than:

Centre Brad Richards, Centre Stephen Weiss, Centre Paul Stastny, Centre Joe Pavelski, Centre Derek Roy, Centre Danny Briere

Wingers Alfredsson, Jagr, Iginla, Gaborik, Hemsky, Selanne, Parise, Heatley, Ovechkin

His assists totals continue to grow 18, 24, 25, 32 and 40+.

I think he's better than 'not a bad' playmaker.

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03-23-2012, 11:48 AM
  #33
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Here we go, continue throwing out stats.

You know your argument is lacking when you start throwing out stats when being a franchise player alludes much more to the intangibles.

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Old
03-23-2012, 11:48 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Doesn't a franchise player make every one around him better? Kessel is a talent, but franchise?
Lupul sure as hell looked better! And Bozak, well what are you goign to do with BOzak! He's may be a franchise player not a magician!

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03-23-2012, 11:51 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
A franchise is player who give it his all, people love and praise kulemin because of his on-ice work but as burke said, he wouldn't be able to lead a pack of bees to the bee-hive if it was in the lockerroom.

As they say Actions speak louder than words, and kessel does that without a doubt.

He's 4th in the point race in a non-stacked team. Compare Penguins, Flyers, Tampa Bay, Ottawa(ugh i hate to mention it but they have a good top six in spezza and michalek with alfie), Devils and Chicago?

That in my eye defines a franchise player, he found a top line player in lupul finally after a long time, now imagine him with a proper first line center, not a third liner center in a good team who has chemistry with him.
His on-ice work.

Phil was very inconsistent last year. This year he has been MUCH better POINTS wise, but some nights he takes off it seems.

I don't want it to sound like I am a Kessel hater, because I am not, I like him a lot, just trying to prove a point.

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03-23-2012, 11:53 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Eb View Post
Here we go, continue throwing out stats.

You know your argument is lacking when you start throwing out stats when being a franchise player alludes much more to the intangibles.
Should Vancouver have traded one of their franchise players (Daniel Sedin at age 24)? He wasn't even as a good as Kessel back then.

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03-23-2012, 11:54 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eb View Post
His on-ice work.

Phil was very inconsistent last year. This year he has been MUCH better POINTS wise, but some nights he takes off it seems.

I don't want it to sound like I am a Kessel hater, because I am not, I like him a lot, just trying to prove a point.
Yea that's called goal scorer's drought, but he was still producing points. If you were to look at the defensive game as well from phil kessel two years ago to last year and this year, you could see he is improving day by day, and under carlyle it will only get better.

This year he has been able to bring that goal scoring drought a lot more due to lupul, and if he has more of a solid group to work with I dont doubt he will able to bring down more.

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03-23-2012, 11:55 AM
  #38
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id say he is a franchise forward. When he was in Boston he definitely was.


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03-23-2012, 11:55 AM
  #39
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Not a franchise player.

He can't make others better around him. May be his linemates, but he can't lift up the mood of the team. Best example is last game. He opened up the scoring, but he can't lead the team the way a franchise player does. @LR: Regardless of whether he was acquired with 2 first round picks, or claimed on waivers, he is not a franchise player.

Having said that, he can definitely motivate the team at some stretches. ex. Bruins stretching playoff series with Habs to Game 7 since Kessel was inserted in lineup.

Not a franchise player, but he gets too much hate.

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03-23-2012, 11:57 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
What's this, a rational thread about Kessel? Nonsense, we don't need a young forward who's already top 5 in the world production wise. That's too good for the Leafs, only other teams are allowed to have franchise players.
Calling Kessel a franchise player is far from rational...

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03-23-2012, 11:57 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Doesn't a franchise player make every one around him better? Kessel is a talent, but franchise?
How the **** is Kessel supposed to make the 3rd and 4th lines score more or be actually effective defensively? How is he supposed to stop easy shots from going into the net? How is he supposed to improve some of the pylons we put out every night? Old cliche is old. Think it through before you post it next time. Oh and incase you really are extra bright, Bozak and Lupul are having career years but I'm sure Kessel (their actual linemate) had nothing to do with it.

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03-23-2012, 11:59 AM
  #42
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Interesting how people call Rick Nash a franchise player, generally that's undisputed.

He's only hit 70 points once in his NHL career and that was 3 full seasons ago.
He's on pace for 53 points and 28 goals this year.
He will be 28 at the start of next season.
Is a career -76.

Add up total goals in the last 4 years. Kessel has more.
Add up total points in the last 4 years. Kessel has only 5 less. With 6 less GP.
Add up total GWG in the last 4 years. Kessel has more.

And Kessel is 3 years younger.

Just because Nash was drafted 1st overall doesn't just make him a franchise player.

People want to talk about hits...
Kessel has 11. Malkin has 25. St Louis has 15. Loui Eriksson has 17. Daniel Sedin has 21. Teemu Selanne has 20. Like who the hell cares.

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03-23-2012, 11:59 AM
  #43
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Now if only he could play defense..
Kovalchuk doesn't play strong defense. Get a team with defense that play strong defense behind the sniper. That's what works.

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03-23-2012, 11:59 AM
  #44
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imo a franchise player is someone who can take his game to the next level when the team needs it, if there in a slump he will pull them out of it with a talk or a big goal to get everyone up. Pumping everyone up, i dont see Kessel like that. Kessel is a very talented player but we see it with Boston all the time, he just dissappearse some games and thats not what franchise players do, they push and push because at the end of the day every teammate is looking at u for that goal, and kessel (at least at this very moment) cannot take his game to that next level to be a franchise player. VERY good player tho.

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03-23-2012, 11:59 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
Should Vancouver have traded one of their franchise players (Daniel Sedin at age 24)? He wasn't even as a good as Kessel back then.
At the time was Sedin a franchise player? NO F-ING WAY!

We're not saying he can't become one, we're saying he isn't one now.

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Old
03-23-2012, 11:59 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by SundinOurOnlyChance View Post
Calling Kessel a franchise player is far from rational...
I backed up my claim.

Counter all my points and back up yours.

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Old
03-23-2012, 12:01 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Kessely Snipes View Post
Honestly Kessel is never going to be that good defensively. Obviously its easier said than done, but if the Leafs could ever got big 1 Center, he would not be exposed as much.
Its hard to be good defensively when the rest of the team is pretty ****** defensively as well.

Most our D have failed to impress(with exceptions of course). And our goaltending has been a disaster for a large majority of the year.

I see a 24 year old kid who has an excellent offensive game. Yea, he has lots of work to do on the D side but once again...He is 24.

We have a top 6 that can score(at times), but most don't like to go into the corners(hence why we never dump and chase). The neutral zone speed just doesn't cut it anymore which makes our core so predicable and very easy to play against.

We need guys with heart. Euro's, americans etc just don't know the history behind this team which is why we need good ontario boys who really know what its like. Need some grit, need guys to stand up and defend our young players, NEVER afraid to drop the mitts, and that starts with those ontario boys who grew up die hard leaf fans. And im sorry, but Don Cherry couldn't have said what he said better.

I rambled way of topic but I'm a frustrated fan, as many of you probably are. As for Kessel, he isn't a franchise player, maybe he will someday. He needs bodies around him who can stand up for this team, once we see that Kessel will see that and some leadership could flourish, it HAS to flourish.

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03-23-2012, 12:01 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by MattVenca View Post
Interesting how people call Rick Nash a franchise player, generally that's undisputed.

He's only hit 70 points once in his NHL career and that was 3 full seasons ago.
He's on pace for 53 points and 28 goals this year.
He will be 28 at the start of next season.
Is a career -76.

Add up total goals in the last 4 years. Kessel has more.
Add up total points in the last 4 years. Kessel has only 5 less. With 6 less GP.
Add up total GWG in the last 4 years. Kessel has more.

And Kessel is 3 years younger.

Just because Nash was drafted 1st overall doesn't just make him a franchise player.

People want to talk about hits...
Kessel has 11. Malkin has 25. St Louis has 15. Loui Eriksson has 17. Daniel Sedin has 21. Teemu Selanne has 20. Like who the hell cares.
stats dont mean everything bro. once people figure that out this board will be a much better place to have hockey conversations.

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03-23-2012, 12:01 PM
  #49
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He's not a Franchise player. But some people are saying you need to be physical to be a Franchise player? That's not true

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03-23-2012, 12:02 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattVenca View Post
Interesting how people call Rick Nash a franchise player, generally that's undisputed.

He's only hit 70 points once in his NHL career and that was 3 full seasons ago.
He's on pace for 53 points and 28 goals this year.
He will be 28 at the start of next season.
Is a career -76.

Add up total goals in the last 4 years. Kessel has more.
Add up total points in the last 4 years. Kessel has only 5 less. With 6 less GP.
Add up total GWG in the last 4 years. Kessel has more.

And Kessel is 3 years younger.

Just because Nash was drafted 1st overall doesn't just make him a franchise player.

People want to talk about hits...
Kessel has 11. Malkin has 25. St Louis has 15. Loui Eriksson has 17. Daniel Sedin has 21. Teemu Selanne has 20. Like who the hell cares.
Being a franchise player isn't all about points, I don't think Rick Nash is, but he is closer then Kessel because he wears the C and he doesn't hide from the media.

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