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Kessel is a franchise player

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Old
04-05-2012, 07:14 AM
  #551
ITM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSeguinEra2010 View Post
Your delusional...ofcourse how the teams fare means more to a trade than individual stats. Bruins fans dont give a flying ******* how many goals Kessel scores because we all know that as long as the Leafs dont do anything spectacular those stats are irrelevant...U got me all wrong and I apparently am not as misguided as u.

I didn't get "u" wrong at all, but apparently, you cannot see how your belief is completely untenable.

I didn't agree or disagree as to the importance of team's gain versus individual gain. I said in essence that individual stats are important whether a team wins or loses, and I maintain that position. I think your problem is, you see the debate in two options, and the truth of the matter is, it's not an either/or discussion.But you're apparently incapable of seeing how they're supplemental and complimentary to one another. Point is, individual production is important, if it wasn't, you could make the argument that Daniel Paille is more valuable than Phil Kessel. And given that you also apparently believe that Seguin is the tipping point to their Cup run, which necessarily removes the importance of performances from players like Chara and Thomas,etc...As a Leafs fan I guess that makes you delusional and at the very least, makes me rational in a cursory review of your club's success.

If the discussion was about Chiarelli vs. Burke, then there would be a hint of legitimacy to the point you apparently need to make despite not being in the appropriate conversation in which to impose the point.

This discussion is about "the trade", not "the end result of multiple trades that did or did not yield a championship".

Because on any number of points, "U" my Bruins friend are having a discussion that matters only to "U" in a Leafs forum...so if like facts, Bruins fans also don't give a flying **** about personal dignity, by all means remain in the discussion you think is happening outside of your head, while Leaf fans take turns trying their respectable best, not to use your demonstrable delusion, like one giant collective pinata.

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04-05-2012, 08:03 AM
  #552
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Originally Posted by TheSeguinEra2010 View Post
Not as much as you are putting them out to be...some of you Leafs fans think just because Kessel scores a lot of goals taht u have the upper hand...but if Kessel was really, truly that good your team wouldnt finish in lottery zone every year...the success of the teams Boston and Toronto means more to this trade than who scores more goals and this and that. Get it through your head!!!
Is Stamkos a franchise player?

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04-05-2012, 08:07 AM
  #553
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I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long. Kessel is not a franchise player, period. He's a complementary player, albeit a damn good one. And then we have threads popping up saying Kessel is the best winger in the league! It's hard being a Leafs fan because there are so many homers.

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04-05-2012, 08:13 AM
  #554
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Originally Posted by TheSeguinEra2010 View Post
Not as much as you are putting them out to be...some of you Leafs fans think just because Kessel scores a lot of goals taht u have the upper hand...but if Kessel was really, truly that good your team wouldnt finish in lottery zone every year...the success of the teams Boston and Toronto means more to this trade than who scores more goals and this and that. Get it through your head!!!
Interesting.

So what you're saying is that if a young player spends 3 years, in his early 20's, being unable to singlehandedly lift his POS team to a playoff position, then he won't be able to experience any success whatsoever down the road.

Forget the fact that he'll get better as he gets older, gets more mature, might even pick up some major hardware... like you know a Norris or a Richard or something like that. Maybe even win a Cup someday. Or Captain a team to a Cup someday.

Surely we're missing somebody... You're an intelligent person. You wouldn't go around mouthing off unless you knew what you were talking about... and certainly wouldn't miss any obvious in your face examples.

Let's think....








Nope... I've got nothing.

You're right.

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Old
04-05-2012, 08:15 AM
  #555
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Chara is amazing. Probably my favorite player in the league.

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04-05-2012, 08:42 AM
  #556
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Originally Posted by ITM View Post
I never absolved Burke of accountability, nor would I want to convey the appearance of it, and I'm not certain how my comment could be correctly inferred as implying it.

At the time of the deal, did Burke and Co. project the picks to both be Top 10? As far as I know, they didn't. Did they account for the possibility? As far as I know, Burke commented that that possibility was considered. But musing about hypothetical percentages still doesn't equate to describing the deal between Boston and Toronto as Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton and Knight, because it was a deal involving potential assets, yet to be enumerated and draftable and a known, proven, rare asset in Kessel. It became that, but that wasn't the deal. It doesn't change Burke's position, it doesn't change the fact he's responsible for it, and it also doesn't change the fact that he didn't actually trade Seguin or a 2nd or Hamilton or a 9th overall, AT THE TIME OF THE DEAL. And that HAS to matter in the conversation, otherwise we're ascribing a kind of foreknowledge that wasn't present in that deal, or any other like exchange,and in my humble opinion that only respects the event...something I know I would want if I was being misrepresented or maligned in a conversation.

Wouldn't you?
why is it so important to stress the fact that it was only draft picks at the time of the deal? your only reason for stressing this point is to absolve burke of blame.

the result is the only relevent aspect.

draft picks are intangible. they're nothing. if we want to, we can essentially say burke got kessel for nothing.

both gms took a risk, both are 100% responsible and accountable for the results of that risk.

Quote:
Always. Pieces that enhance other assets on a team in a sport that rewards winners. Obviously. Always. But you're not suggesting that without Tyler Seguin that Boston implodes and fails to win the Cup are you? By the same rationale,because Boston won the Cup, Daniel Paille is more valuable than Phil Kessel. When you answer, "No", the rest of the argument should seem illuminated that, in the case of The Boston Bruins Championship, Tyler Seguin was not the tipping point. That was a loaded, fantastically built club. I admire Peter Chiarelli like few other GMs,but there were a lot of moves he made well before, that as such, losing Seguin would not have derailed that club.
i'm saying we don't know if boston would have won the cup without seguin. we don't know his exact level of contribution. we don't know if they would have won the cup with kessel instead of seguin.

what we do know is that they won the cup, and seguin was part of it. they won the cup shortly after making that trade. that puts them miles ahead when judging the winner of the deal.

are the individual stats, and your opinion of the players involved, worth more than winning?

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04-05-2012, 09:59 AM
  #557
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what we do know is that they won the cup, and seguin was part of it. they won the cup shortly after making that trade. that puts them miles ahead when judging the winner of the deal.

are the individual stats, and your opinion of the players involved, worth more than winning?
Before we go to far off topic, what does have to do with original post.

We are discussing whether Kessel is a franchise player in this thread.

Keep all "Kessel trade" talk in the multitudes of threads already discussing that.

Do we really need to talk about this right now? Another 2 years might be a good time to revisit this.

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04-05-2012, 05:31 PM
  #558
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For all those saying Kessel can't lead a team to the playoffs, he led Boston to the playoffs for 2 years in his first 3.

For those of you who will say "Oh, well he had a good team around him", that's irrelevant. According to you, only one player leads a team to the playoffs.

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04-05-2012, 05:38 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
For all those saying Kessel can't lead a team to the playoffs, he led Boston to the playoffs for 2 years in his first 3.

For those of you who will say "Oh, well he had a good team around him", that's irrelevant. According to you, only one player leads a team to the playoffs.
Even if that's true, Kessel sure as hell wasn't a leader on Boston either. He was basically a 2nd line player.

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04-05-2012, 05:42 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
For all those saying Kessel can't lead a team to the playoffs, he led Boston to the playoffs for 2 years in his first 3.

For those of you who will say "Oh, well he had a good team around him", that's irrelevant. According to you, only one player leads a team to the playoffs.
he didn't "lead" the Bruins to the playoffs either of those years especially not in 07-08...

Chara, Savard, and Thomas were the leaders both of those years...

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04-05-2012, 05:45 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
For all those saying Kessel can't lead a team to the playoffs, he led Boston to the playoffs for 2 years in his first 3.

For those of you who will say "Oh, well he had a good team around him", that's irrelevant. According to you, only one player leads a team to the playoffs.
You are saying Kessel was the Bruins mvp in '07-08 and '08-09? lol.
In '07-08 Savard more than doubled Kessel in points, in '08-09 Chara won the Norris, Thomas won the Vezina.

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04-05-2012, 05:59 PM
  #562
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Well hey, Seguin apparently won the cup for Boston despite only showing up for one period, so how can we say that Kessel wasn't a significant factor?

In 2008-2009, Kessel scored the most goals on the team (9 more than anyone else in less games), so he did a hell of a lot to lead Boston to the playoffs. And scored the most goals both years in the playoffs.

Or are these methods of evaluation only valid when arguing against Kessel?

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04-05-2012, 06:04 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by Komodo View Post
I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long. Kessel is not a franchise player, period. He's a complementary player, albeit a damn good one. And then we have threads popping up saying Kessel is the best winger in the league! It's hard being a Leafs fan because there are so many homers.
It's hard to not get Leaf homers saying that when everyone else is portraying Phil as a useless piece of dog doody.

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04-05-2012, 06:13 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Well hey, Seguin apparently won the cup for Boston despite only showing up for one period, so how can we say that Kessel wasn't a significant factor?
More of you making stuff up I see. Expert of hyperbole. Clearly your gimmick on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
In 2008-2009, Kessel scored the most goals on the team (9 more than anyone else in less games), so he did a hell of a lot to lead Boston to the playoffs. And scored the most goals both years in the playoffs.

Or are these methods of evaluation only valid when arguing against Kessel?
Nobody said he didn't contribute. Fact is there were more important pieces both of those years. When you say that somebody "led" their team to the playoffs that would imply they were the most valuable... Kessel was not even close to the most valuable player either of those years.

Also he tied for the most playoff goals in '09 but don't let facts get in the way... Only reason I even bother pointing this out is you seem to have a habit of twisting the facts to support your points.

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04-05-2012, 06:22 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Well hey, Seguin apparently won the cup for Boston despite only showing up for one period, so how can we say that Kessel wasn't a significant factor?

In 2008-2009, Kessel scored the most goals on the team (9 more than anyone else in less games), so he did a hell of a lot to lead Boston to the playoffs. And scored the most goals both years in the playoffs.

Or are these methods of evaluation only valid when arguing against Kessel?
Just saying Kessel didn't come remotely close to 'lead Boston to the playoffs' either year. True, he was certainly their best goal scorer in '08-09 but also that is framing it in the best possible light, Chara, Thomas, Savard (it sure didn't hurt Kessels goal scoring to play with one of the leagues top playmakers that year) and even very arguably Krejci (who put up 73 points, led the league in +/- and came 5th in the Selke voting) were more valuabal overall.

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04-05-2012, 06:26 PM
  #566
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Lot of bitter Boston fans here.

Kessel was our leading goal scorer in 08-09 and was within 1 goal of the scoring leader in 07-08. To say he "led the team into the playoffs" isn't inaccurate. Savard's PPG went into the toilet after he moved on. And he freaking well earned his keep in the playoffs both of those years. We like to downplay his role because it doesn't fit into the narrative we like to tell ourselves, but Kessel was a significant factor in those two seasons.

Never understood why Boston fans couldn't admit that Kessel was a good player after Burke overpaid for him.

The problem he's having with the Leafs is that the Leafs can't cover for him defensively. Not built for it. Especially defense among the top 6. And it's something Kessel needs, because he's never going to be a great defensive forward. Left to his own devices he'll blow or fail enough coverage defensively to make up for his offense so you have to match him up with at least some defensive ability to offset that.

Until they commit to 2 way play, I'm guessing that the Leafs won't go much of anywhere. One of the reasons I really suspect the Leafs will come down with Chris Kelly if the Bruins can't re-sign him. He'd be a perfect fit for what the Leafs really need.

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04-05-2012, 08:56 PM
  #567
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Phil could be a franchise player, it all depends what perspective you have of a franchise player.

But most people will not have that perspective.

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04-05-2012, 09:50 PM
  #568
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I'm sorry but you just dont build your franchise around Kessel. He's not a franchise player.

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04-05-2012, 09:52 PM
  #569
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Lot of bitter Boston fans here.

Kessel was our leading goal scorer in 08-09 and was within 1 goal of the scoring leader in 07-08. To say he "led the team into the playoffs" isn't inaccurate. Savard's PPG went into the toilet after he moved on. And he freaking well earned his keep in the playoffs both of those years. We like to downplay his role because it doesn't fit into the narrative we like to tell ourselves, but Kessel was a significant factor in those two seasons.

Never understood why Boston fans couldn't admit that Kessel was a good player after Burke overpaid for him.

The problem he's having with the Leafs is that the Leafs can't cover for him defensively. Not built for it. Especially defense among the top 6. And it's something Kessel needs, because he's never going to be a great defensive forward. Left to his own devices he'll blow or fail enough coverage defensively to make up for his offense so you have to match him up with at least some defensive ability to offset that.

Until they commit to 2 way play, I'm guessing that the Leafs won't go much of anywhere. One of the reasons I really suspect the Leafs will come down with Chris Kelly if the Bruins can't re-sign him. He'd be a perfect fit for what the Leafs really need.
I think getting a competent goalie would do wonders.

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04-05-2012, 10:19 PM
  #570
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I think getting a competent goalie would do wonders.
It's amazing how much better your goaltending looks when your forwards are helping the defense and your team is executing a good system properly. I speak from experience. Check out Tim Thomas' numbers in the David Lewis era compared to what Julien has gotten out of him.

If you think only your D is supposed to defend you could Henrik Lundqvist to Toronto and you'd still have goalie troubles.

Personally I think the Leafs should bring in Jaques Martin. That's just another team's fan's opinion, but I think Martin never should have been fired and plays a big role in how good Carey Price looked last year. Commit to proper two way play from at least your centers, and put a good coach who can get coherent defensive effort out of the forwards, and the Leafs instantly look a ton better even with the same personnel.

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04-05-2012, 10:25 PM
  #571
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He is the highest scoring winger in the league....Thats like pretty good right?

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04-05-2012, 10:57 PM
  #572
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Said it before and I'll say it again. Put Kessel on a line with Lucic and Bergeron and you'd have the best line in hockey. Love Kessel but he's not great on defense and he isn't physical. Put him with two dudes that can cover for his shortcomings, and he'd be even better than he was this year. And he was GREAT this year.

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04-06-2012, 12:08 AM
  #573
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As for the franchise player thing?

It really depends on what you mean by "franchise player."

He can lead the franchise in the things he does well. But he isn't going to lead the franchise, or even the forward corps, in all aspects of the game. and he isn't a charismatic leader who will inspire others to better themselves.

Kessel is an extremely good goal scorer. That's about the extent of his abilities, attributes and assets that he will bring to your team. In a number of situations that would be enough. I'm not sure it is for the Leafs right now. They need something a bit more substantial girding up their team infrastructure. They need some more meat on their bones, and I'm not just talking about player size. I'm talking about substance to go with the flash and style a guy like Kessel can bring. Without the backbone of good defense and fundamental play, trying to live off Phil Kessel is like trying to live for an extended period of time on nothing but white sugar.

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04-06-2012, 12:21 AM
  #574
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On the one hand, he is a top 10 scorer in the NHL that most teams would love to have on the team.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if Kessel is the player you want to build your franchise and team around. He is a great complementary player (much like mogilniny was to Sundin) but he is not "franchise" centre piece.

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04-06-2012, 12:33 AM
  #575
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i wish kessel was an equal hockey player to tyler seguin...

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