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Mario Lemieux or Wayne Gretzky?

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Old
11-19-2004, 03:57 AM
  #1
Mr. Hab
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Mario Lemieux or Wayne Gretzky?

Whenever the topic comes up (who was better?), it is always Gretzky by a landslide. I personally think Mario is #1 in NHL history. Gretzky's #2. Who would you choose?
The #3 spot can go to whoever you choose!: Orr, Messier, Forsberg, Howe...or others...
I always gave Gretzky credit (it's impossible not to, with all the records!), but I think Lemieux deserves way more credit than he has received. We all know Gretzky's record breaking season point totals, but what about Lemieux's 199 pt season? Lemieux can still dominate now (if 100% healthy) and is months away from 40! During his peak years, Mario had everything (incredible/supreme slapshot, one timer, wristshot, stickhandling, smooth skating, style, size...the whole package). If he's 100% healthy now he can still demonstrate up to 90% of those skills just mentioned.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, this is not an Ontario vs Quebec issue! For example, I'd rather have Joe Thornton instead of Lecavalier. They are both great players, but Thornton has produced more consistently. Lecavalier has a Cup, though, and is catching up in the consistency department...


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 11-19-2004 at 04:17 AM.
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Old
11-19-2004, 06:21 AM
  #2
RaTcine
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1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux

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Old
11-19-2004, 07:17 AM
  #3
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My top five:

1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Richard

maybe Orr & Lemieux should be ranked higher if strictly on skills and their play at their peak, but imo, when discussing the 'best' you must take into consideration longevity and ability to stay healthy, etc. Can't includes 'if's', 'and's' and 'but's'.

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11-19-2004, 09:02 AM
  #4
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Lemieux is/was better than Gretzky. Gretzky wasn't the best player in the NHL after about age 28. Lemieux led the league in PPG just two years ago (at age 37), and would've won the Art Ross if his team hadn't blown itself up. Lemieux, therefore, had more longevity than Gretzky.

Orr is tougher, since he flat out retired at a young age.

Lemieux was more skilled, mainly because of his size, and that amazing reach. He was also tougher than Gretz, and was better in the playoffs than him. The 1991 playoffs was perhaps the most dominating anyone has played any sport, at any time in history.

Oh yeah, and Lemieux nearly hit 200 points without guys named Paul Coffey, Jari Kurri, and Mark Messier on his PP unit.

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Old
11-19-2004, 09:56 AM
  #5
Darz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskhab
Oh yeah, and Lemieux nearly hit 200 points without guys named Paul Coffey, Jari Kurri, and Mark Messier on his PP unit.
Don't mean to nitpick but during Lemieux's 199 point season Coffey WAS on the Pens PP unit.

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11-19-2004, 10:25 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskhab
Lemieux is/was better than Gretzky. Gretzky wasn't the best player in the NHL after about age 28. Lemieux led the league in PPG just two years ago (at age 37), and would've won the Art Ross if his team hadn't blown itself up. Lemieux, therefore, had more longevity than Gretzky.

Orr is tougher, since he flat out retired at a young age.

Lemieux was more skilled, mainly because of his size, and that amazing reach. He was also tougher than Gretz, and was better in the playoffs than him. The 1991 playoffs was perhaps the most dominating anyone has played any sport, at any time in history.

Oh yeah, and Lemieux nearly hit 200 points without guys named Paul Coffey, Jari Kurri, and Mark Messier on his PP unit.
How can you call Lemieux tougher? He's the one who had to end his career to injury a couple of times, and the one who has to take games off just to rest himself now. That's why Gretz still has all the records, is because Lemieux wasn't tough enough to handle the NHL for 20 years or so.

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Old
11-19-2004, 10:34 AM
  #7
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First of all NOBODY HIT GRETZKY IN HIS PRIME! How many times did u see Lemieux getting hit or cross checked from behind while making a play or many times on breakawys and he still used to score despite these things. Secondly Lemieux would play when he couldnt even bend over to tie his frikin skates and still lead the league in scoring. Also if Gretzky was tougher then Lemieux then why didnt Gretzky EVER stand in front of the net?

Now my top 10 would be:

1- Lemieux
2- Orr
3- Gretzky
4- Richard
5- Howe
6- Lafleur
7- Beliveau
8- Bossy
9- Dionne
10- Mahovlich

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11-19-2004, 10:39 AM
  #8
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That's not a very good argument: he did not stand in front of the net because, when they had the puck going in the offensive zone, he was standing BEHIND the net! His office, if you will. Then, he'd make a nice pass to an open guy IN FRONT of the net, and scores! Don't confuse Gretz with a power-forward.

Gretzky had the most outstanding career in NHL history, Lemieux was the most physically talented, Orr revolutioned the way defensemen play the game. However, you have to take durability into account when you compare careers. In this case, Gretz wins hands down.

Saying that Mario Lemieux is #1 is like saying Jason Allison is currently top 5 in the league.

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Old
11-19-2004, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-D
That's not a very good argument: he did not stand in front of the net because, when they had the puck going in the offensive zone, he was standing BEHIND the net! His office, if you will. Then, he'd make a nice pass to an open guy IN FRONT of the net, and scores! Don't confuse Gretz with a power-forward.
You just furthered my point. Gretzky didnt stand in front of the net but Lemieux did which means that Lemieux is tougher then Gretz.

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11-19-2004, 10:44 AM
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Who cares. Don't tell me Wayne wasn't effective that way. Who REALLY cares about toughness when you are THE EFFING GREAT ONE???!!!

Mario was a cherry-picker while Wayne was the master of takeaways.

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11-19-2004, 10:51 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-D
Who cares. Don't tell me Wayne wasn't effective that way. Who REALLY cares about toughness when you are THE EFFING GREAT ONE???!!!

Mario was a cherry-picker while Wayne was the master of takeaways.
Quand' est-ce que je t'ai dis que Gretzky n'était pas productive quand il jouait derriere le but? My point is Gretzky had the better career but when it comes to talent, Lemieux gets the nod. If the game was on the line and I had some great wingers on my team's first line, then I would choose Gretzky to be the play maker. However if I had average wingers on my first line or a little above average then I would choose Mario as he could score more.

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11-19-2004, 11:17 AM
  #12
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Nothing was better than Orr.

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Old
11-19-2004, 11:48 AM
  #13
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Look, to say Lemieux has never had anyone to play with is total bull. By 1991, he had the team around him to reach his potential but injuries and hodgkin's disease slowed him down a bit. I don't think supporting casts including scorers like Cullen, Rob Brown, Bob Errey, Warren Young, Wayne Babych, Tocchet, Recchi, Jagr, Kovalev, Straka, Lang, Coffey, Murphy, Francis, Mullen and Stevens is that much weaker than Blair MacDonald, Callighen, Hagman, Coffey, Kurri, Anderson, Messier, Simpson, Tikkanen, Robitaille, Nicholls, Sandstrom, Granato, Blake, Hull, Sundstrom, Kovalev and a few others. The argument, to me, doesn't work because although Mario had nothing to work with for 6 years, Gretzky's first 3 years as a pro were the same. People want to say that Lemieux made his linemates, but Gretzky's linemates made him. Not true. The only Gretzky-like year Mario could muster with his weaker Pens teams was 88-89 until the Pens were stacked and he could average 2.5 pts. a game.

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11-19-2004, 12:21 PM
  #14
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I would have like it so much if Lemieux could have been healtly all his career.

200 points in a season? He would have got this as often as Gretzky.

The guy was putting over 2ppg while he was not even able to laced up his SKATES for god sake because his back was hurting too much.

What is disapointing is that it will remained IF forever...

In the end: Lemieux - Gretzky or Gretzky - Lemieux ??

I dont care since for me it's more like
1) Lemieux
1) Gretzky

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11-19-2004, 12:25 PM
  #15
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I don't like to compare guys like Lemieux and Gretzky because you enter in the ''What if'' territory. You just can't compare an injury prone god with a non-injury prone god. Same thing with Orr.

I prefer to compare guys that have similar game played in similar era.

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11-19-2004, 01:27 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darz
Don't mean to nitpick but during Lemieux's 199 point season Coffey WAS on the Pens PP unit.
And Jagr, anyone remember him? Recchi? Stevens ? Tochet ...Lemieux was just as surrounded as Gretz

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11-19-2004, 01:38 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-D
That's not a very good argument: he did not stand in front of the net because, when they had the puck going in the offensive zone, he was standing BEHIND the net! His office, if you will. Then, he'd make a nice pass to an open guy IN FRONT of the net, and scores! Don't confuse Gretz with a power-forward.

Gretzky had the most outstanding career in NHL history, Lemieux was the most physically talented, Orr revolutioned the way defensemen play the game. However, you have to take durability into account when you compare careers. In this case, Gretz wins hands down.

Saying that Mario Lemieux is #1 is like saying Jason Allison is currently top 5 in the league.
?????????????????????
How about if someone said: base on talent, Lemieux is #1...

I mean come on, Saying that Saying that Mario Lemieux is #1 is like saying Jason Allison is currently top 5 in the league is much more ridiculous than saying that Mario Lemieux is #1 is like saying Jason Allison is currently top 5 in the league. (ouch, a little bit too much of saying for my liking )

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Old
11-19-2004, 06:21 PM
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I have to agree with most of what J-D said. I agree that Mario was the most talented but that doesn't settle the issue, you have to go with Gretz for his multitude of records and Orr's abilities were, and still are, unequalled.

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11-19-2004, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskhab
Lemieux is/was better than Gretzky. Gretzky wasn't the best player in the NHL after about age 28. Lemieux led the league in PPG just two years ago (at age 37), and would've won the Art Ross if his team hadn't blown itself up. Lemieux, therefore, had more longevity than Gretzky.

Orr is tougher, since he flat out retired at a young age.

Lemieux was more skilled, mainly because of his size, and that amazing reach. He was also tougher than Gretz, and was better in the playoffs than him. The 1991 playoffs was perhaps the most dominating anyone has played any sport, at any time in history.

Oh yeah, and Lemieux nearly hit 200 points without guys named Paul Coffey, Jari Kurri, and Mark Messier on his PP unit.

ya, but theres that "if" again.........

Perhaps, Lemieux would'nt have produced even when healthy?

Who knows..............

Oh, and my list.......

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Super Mario

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11-19-2004, 06:33 PM
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Gretsky,Ribeiro
Lemieux ,Orr



















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Old
11-19-2004, 06:41 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0v
Gretsky,Ribeiro
Lemieux ,Orr


















:lol

oh man.....why oh why did you have too do that....

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Old
11-19-2004, 06:53 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tritone
And Jagr, anyone remember him? Recchi? Stevens ? Tochet ...Lemieux was just as surrounded as Gretz

Ever since I've been watching the game, mario was the player that scared me the most when he had the puck.

Lemieux had a good supporting cast for a while but it didn't last as long as Gretzky's cast in edmonton and it wasn't quite as good.

Its a tough comparison cuz they are 2 different styles of players but I've never seen a man dominate the playoffs like mario did in his back to back cups.

I'll also never forget when lemieux missed a chunk of the season to cancer and still came back to win the scoring title.

My vote goes to lemieux. This arguement is ageless and its tiring because everybody is stubborn with their best player pick.

No matter what we say, its all been said before.

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11-19-2004, 07:07 PM
  #23
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Mario was the most talented player and Gretzky the best. Mario was routinely brutalized and the refs allowed it. If you breathed on Wayne you were 1) going to the penalty box or 2) getting pummeled by Dave Cementhead or Marty McSorley.

I do know this, Wendell Young scored 40 goals playing with Mario which is pretty darn good.

Hall of Fame players Gretzky played with- Kurri, Coffey, Messier, Fuhr. Close to Hall of Fame players- Anderson & Lowe.

Hall of Fame players Mario played with- Jagr, Murphy. Close to Hall of Fame- Recchi.

I think we should all be happy that we had a chance to see them both play. Canada Cup 1987 was absolutely "GREAT & MAGNIFICENT" seeing Wayne is his priime and Mario coming into his own.

Bottom line- that was hockey at its best and hockey in the 70's and 80's was classic. Just my opinion.

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11-19-2004, 07:16 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hab
Whenever the topic comes up (who was better?), it is always Gretzky by a landslide.
Hardly ever a landslide, which is why this topic is debated every two weeks or less on these HF Boards. Exhibit A: saskhab's quote, which is reproduced here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saskhab
Lemieux is/was better than Gretzky. Gretzky wasn't the best player in the NHL after about age 28. Lemieux led the league in PPG just two years ago (at age 37), and would've won the Art Ross if his team hadn't blown itself up. Lemieux, therefore, had more longevity than Gretzky.

Orr is tougher, since he flat out retired at a young age.

Lemieux was more skilled, mainly because of his size, and that amazing reach. He was also tougher than Gretz, and was better in the playoffs than him. The 1991 playoffs was perhaps the most dominating anyone has played any sport, at any time in history.

Oh yeah, and Lemieux nearly hit 200 points without guys named Paul Coffey, Jari Kurri, and Mark Messier on his PP unit.
Gretzky wasn't the best after age 28? He turned 28 in 1989. After that year, he got four 100 point seasons and three scoring titles and took his team to the Stanley Cup finals.

Lemieux had more longevity? Gretzky played nearly 1500 games and was still averaging over a point a game in his last three seasons. Mario has not even broken 900 games.

Lemieux was better in the playoffs? How? By scoring half the number of points in the playoffs than Gretzky and half the number of Stanley Cups?

And of course Lemieux never ever played with good players. No Jagrs, Stevenses, Francises, Murphys, Coffeys, etc. Even when Wayne was scoring those insane numbers, just look at how many points the next closest guy had.

I am too young to comment on Orr or Howe, but I am fortunate enough to have followed Gretzky's and Lemieux's. Both were godsends to the game, but I give the edge to Gretzky, who in my opinion has done more as an ambassador to the sport, played so many more games, did more to define the way the game is played, and won so much more hardware, namely the Stanley Cup.

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Old
11-19-2004, 08:02 PM
  #25
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you're right , anon

when you look at the number of Gretsky , you realise that it was not only that he was leading , but for how much points he was leading...

in 81-82, he got 205 points and the number 2 of the team , Anderson had 105 points....wow !

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