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Mario Lemieux or Wayne Gretzky?

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11-24-2004, 08:08 AM
  #76
Habsology
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskhab
First off, Jagr didn't join the NHL until 1990-91, and was on the 3rd line for his rookie year.

That means that you are comparing Jagr as a 19 year old in 1992 and 20 year old in 1993 to Kurri, Nicholls, and Robitaille in their prime years.

Also, in case you didn't realize, there was actual good goaltending and defence in the 1990s, something glaringly absent from the 1980s with a handful of exceptions (one being Fuhr, who Gretzky never had to face; the others being Smith, Vernon, Roy, and Lindbergh; where Smith was only dominant for the first half of the 80s, and Vernon and Roy for the 2nd half, and Lindbergh for about 2 seasons). Lemieux had to score on the likes of Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, Richter, Vanbiesbrouck, Potvin... not to mention the current younger group of highly talented netminders. Goaltending was WAY better in Lemieux's prime years than Gretzky's, as scores from around the league indicate (huge drop in GPG, still dropping today). Have you honestly looked at who scored 50 goals in one season from 1980 to 1987? Some "amazing" players hit that milestone...

As for Lemieux in this past World Cup not being dominant, you're right. He's finally now slowing down. At age 39!!!! Gretzky started slowing down throughout his last DECADE playing the game.

I don't have the exact number, but Gretzky's +/- after 1992 was autrocious. He simply became a PP specialist.

As for LEmieux being a floater and Gretzky a "master of takeaways", I don't know what games you were watching. Gretzky was always bashed for being out beyond the blueline looking for breakaways. Seeing him inside his own team's hashmarks? That's a picture I'd love to see!

Gretz was a top notch player, and one of the all-time greats. But Lemeiux had so much to offer. I'd take him on my team over Gretz any day. That reach, those dekes, that wrist shot, his hits, his skating, his courage... Unbelievable what he was able to accomplish.
if you look here :

1992-1993
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...l19271993.html

1988-1989
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...l19271989.html

(2 year of a lot of the offensive record in the NHL of all time, especialy 1992-1993, so don't talk about defensive 90's.... only late 90's)

You will see that Mario Lemieux produce when its an offensive year in the NHL and all other player gets his best year... and he play in very offensive year... like 1992-93.

Only Gretzky played 200 pts/year year after year... with a good team I agree but he did it.

If you look at other years you will see good year of Mario Lemieux but not has 200 pts per year like Gretzky.

Mario play with Jagr at his best (his best was : 1992-2001).... and the rookie year of Jagr was in 1990-91 :
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php3?pid=2497

I agree that Mario seems to get more points later in his carreer than Gretzky, (Gorie Howe made 103 in 68-69 at 41 years old) his he better then Lemieux?

And thats doesn't explain why other player like Jagr doesn't produce like player who play with Gretzky (Kurri 71 goals, Nicholls 70 goals, Robitaille 63 goal). And Rob brown got some good time ouside of pittsburg like :
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000461991.html
but Rob Brown was having problem outside of the ice and big problem to fit in teams most of the time, but he was talented.

And it doesn't explain why Mario didn't make twice the number of points of other player in his team if Penguins was so bad, like Gretzky did in 1981-1982 :
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000411982.html

And if you look here you will see that Mario's last best year was in : 1995-96 and 30 years old.

I agree in the fact that he was more injured then Gretzky but thats the problem of big power foward who need to overuse there body... see Lindros and Leclair infury... They play too physical, other team ajust there strategy bye hitting them... (i am talking about player who overuse there body, not soft player like Jagr, Kovalev, etc.) and those player wouldn't be so good without overusing there body...

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11-24-2004, 08:23 AM
  #77
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[QUOTE=mark0v]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
How is noone close to Gretzky?

Gretzky wasnt the most natural player ever, nor was he the most pure goal scorer ever, he wasn't the best stick handler ever, nor was he the best deker ever, played with some great players over the course of his career and nobody is close to Gretzky? [/QUOT

pure scorer ; who else get a 92 goals season ?

is by far the best playmaker
have the best vision and the best hockey '' brain ''

Lemieux is the best stick handler , the most spectaculor and the best '' how you look ridiculous on that one ''




Mike Bossy is the best pure goal scorer.

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11-24-2004, 08:49 AM
  #78
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Time to take a break from the who was better talk to sit back and realize that if a few things went in the habs favour...both Wayne Gretzky AND Mario Lemieux would of been Montreal Canadiens.

Sam Pollacks acquisition of the first overall pick for the 1980 draft was done with the understanding that the 1980 draft would be the 'Wayne Gretzky' draft, and if not for the WHA and the fact that the draft age was dropped from 19 to 18, Montreal would of been in line to draft The Great One first overall in the 1980 draft. Imagine the line of Gretzky, Lafleur and Shutt.....*drool*

Now, many in the habs organization had an eye of Mario Lemieux 4 years before he was drafted. The acquisition of what turned out to be the fifth overall pick in the '84 draft was part of an attempt to land the first overall pick. Not being successful in landing the first overall pick, the habs made some very serious offers to the Pens to acquire their pick. Mario himself, as you all know, wanted to play for the habs dearly, and was so disappointed that the pens didn't trade the pick that he didn't even come down from the stands to meet the pens brass after they announced his name.

Now just imagine, with a little luck, how the past 20-25 years would of been like with both superstars sporting habs jerseys.

*Darz drools uncontrollablely*

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11-24-2004, 02:30 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darz
Time to take a break from the who was better talk to sit back and realize that if a few things went in the habs favour...both Wayne Gretzky AND Mario Lemieux would of been Montreal Canadiens.

Sam Pollacks acquisition of the first overall pick for the 1980 draft was done with the understanding that the 1980 draft would be the 'Wayne Gretzky' draft, and if not for the WHA and the fact that the draft age was dropped from 19 to 18, Montreal would of been in line to draft The Great One first overall in the 1980 draft. Imagine the line of Gretzky, Lafleur and Shutt.....*drool*

Now, many in the habs organization had an eye of Mario Lemieux 4 years before he was drafted. The acquisition of what turned out to be the fifth overall pick in the '84 draft was part of an attempt to land the first overall pick. Not being successful in landing the first overall pick, the habs made some very serious offers to the Pens to acquire their pick. Mario himself, as you all know, wanted to play for the habs dearly, and was so disappointed that the pens didn't trade the pick that he didn't even come down from the stands to meet the pens brass after they announced his name.

Now just imagine, with a little luck, how the past 20-25 years would of been like with both superstars sporting habs jerseys.

*Darz drools uncontrollablely*
How depressing can things get around here,
So what your saying is that gretzky started in the WHA?

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11-24-2004, 02:40 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisson11
How depressing can things get around here,
So what your saying is that gretzky started in the WHA?
Yes, he played 8 games and got 6 points as a 17 years old with Indiannapolis! The year later, still in the WHA, he made more than 100 points in around 70 games for Edmonton. Crazy...

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11-24-2004, 02:47 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69
Yes, he played 8 games and got 6 points as a 17 years old with Indiannapolis! The year later, still in the WHA, he made more than 100 points in around 70 games for Edmonton. Crazy...
Close. He only played one year in the WHA...the first 8 with the Racers (Indy) and then he along with Eddie Mio were sold to Edmonton.



1978-79 Indianapolis Racers 8 games 3 goals 3 assists 6 points 0 PIM
1978-79 Edmonton Oilers 72 games 43 goals 61 assists 104 points 19 PIM

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11-24-2004, 02:49 PM
  #82
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Wayne Gretzky!!!1!!!

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Old
11-24-2004, 02:50 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darz
Close. He only played one year in the WHA...the first 8 with the Racers (Indy) and then he along with Eddie Mio were sold to Edmonton.



1978-79 Indianapolis Racers 8 games 3 goals 3 assists 6 points 0 PIM
1978-79 Edmonton Oilers 72 games 43 goals 61 assists 104 points 19 PIM
Oups, my bad. I checked an old hockey card and didn,t realize it was the same year. I was surprise, tho : I tought I heard somewhere that he played some pro games at 16 years old.

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11-24-2004, 02:59 PM
  #84
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Hey! Darz! I knew about the way Grundman trade for a first round pick, trying to have the eventual no 1 pick in the Lemieux's year draft. If I remember, I think they trade Larouche to Hartford (and maybe someone else), but it turns out to be the fifth choice (Petr Svoboda).

But man, you got me on the '80 draft. I didn't know it was made in the eventuality of drafting Gretzky. How did they get this first overall pick anyway?

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11-25-2004, 12:54 AM
  #85
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1) Mario
2) Wayne
3) Orr
4) Forsberg (iv never seen howe or bossy play but there's no doubt in my mind that forsberg is the best player I'v seen besides maybe Jagr.)

Also, would mario or gretkzy score 150 points in today's NHL. In the 80s the goalies were pathetic, any 4th liner could easily score 20 goals.

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11-25-2004, 01:41 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyjoe21
any 4th liner could easily score 20 goals.
Just not true. Gotta reply...

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11-25-2004, 09:13 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69
But man, you got me on the '80 draft. I didn't know it was made in the eventuality of drafting Gretzky. How did they get this first overall pick anyway?
In 1976 (four years before the 1980 draft) the habs sent Ron Andruff & Sean Shanahan to Colorado for the option to switch first round picks in the 1980 draft. At the time the draft age was 19, so Wayne Gretzky's draft year would of been 1980. So if not for the WHA the habs would of ended up selecting Wayne Gretzky first overall in the 1980 draft, and the trade made in September 1976 would of went down in history as one of the best trades in NHL history (for the habs).

Sam Pollack - greatest GM of all time.

...and as far as Grundman trading to try to nab the 1st overall pick in the 1984 draft, that was based on advice he recieved from Pollack.


Last edited by Darz: 11-25-2004 at 01:21 PM.
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11-25-2004, 10:44 AM
  #88
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Thanks...

Well, it was a good trade anyway. Too bad we end up with Wickenheiser insted of Savard (or D. Babych, as a matter of fact), but still, it's a good trade. I know that Andruff played some seasons (without too much success), but I never knew about Sean Shanahan.

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