Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated"Rated PG13, unmoderated but threads must stay on topic - that means you can flame each other all you want as long as it's legal
The whole thing was designed to push both parties to the middle, and it succeeded impressively. Truth be told, there is very, very little radicalization in either political party right now -- by design. The Republicans get a horrible rap because of a few loudmouths, but when you look at what they actually do they're really not all that far right compared to your standard right wing core party in Europe.
There is nothing near the level of organization of either the GOP or the Dems as there is in equivalent parliamentary parties, and crossing the aisle, which would be a near-heresy within a parliamentary party, is actually encouraged. Bipartisanship you know. It can be the only way to get things done at times. So everything turns into a compromise and neither side is particularly good at "holding the party line."
It's just a different system altogether.
You seriously have no idea what you are talking about.
Party and political elite polarization in US politics has been increasing dramatically since the early 70s, within both parties. The last 2 or 3 decades have been one of the most polarized periods of the history of the country.
Even the second paragraph is way off the mark. Since the mid 70s congressional reforms aimed at maiming the South Democrat stronghold on committee chair positions, the Speaker of the House and his gang of whips have become the central organization of the parties. Among other factors, this in turn has resulted in a massive shift to alignment and party loyalty within the rank and files of each party. The Gingrich congress era for example was very strongly centralized, and actually resembled more of a parliamentary system than the traditional decentralized compromise congress of the past.
Keep in mind that I just wrote a 40 page thesis on polarization in US politics, so if you want to rebut me, you better bring something worthy to the table.
Where you're wrong is thinking that everything Republican is right wing.
Remember that the two American political parties are not based on ideological purity. This is not the NDP or the Greens or the Canadian Conservatives. These are both would-be ruling coalitions in their own right made up of a number of splinter factions, such as the Christian moral right, the pro-military faction, and an industrialist coalition that feels turned off by the Democrats' dual alliance with the environmentalists and the labor unions.
You aren't going to be able to look at Republican policy proposals and decide that anything they put forward is the rightest of all right wing ideas. That would be foolish, and is in fact badly mistaken. Occasionally you get the radicals running the party for awhile, like in the Contract with America, but that's by and large the exception. Anything that gets out of the Republican caucus, with a few exceptions, has already been vetted by a number of factions within the party and is a compromise proposal right out the gate between moderates and hardliners within the party -- far more so than a conventional Parliamentary system.
Palin was a Vice Presidential candidate behind one of the most centrist Republicans of his generation. Seriously, if you can't at least concede that McCain's as moderate as Republicans get, I don't know what to say.
And her policies didn't entitle the media to haul off and murder her image like they did. If you don't like her policies, focus on her policies, don't pick on her appearance and verbal tics, that's just shallow
McCain shifted quite right between 2004 and 2008, and Palin had extremist connections.
"Extreme" "extremists" are words that are thrown around way too easy in politics.
No one in their right mind wants to live in a place where freedoms are limited or don't exist. At the same time, you can't put out a 5 Alarm Fire with a fire extinguisher either.
It takes extreme in order to defeat extreme.
You imply that extremism is bad. Yet wour way to fight it is extremism.
Good god, you think the Democrats are center right?
Where the heck is the center of your axis????????? Complete state ownership of all property??????
Obama is a boilerplate left wing politician, probably the furthest left of any American President in history with the possible exception of Jimmy Carter, I guess you'd call him a centrist????
This is ludicrous, I'm sorry.
Take a look at Europe and then tell me that Obama is a leftie. That's beyiond ridiculous.
Good god, you think the Democrats are center right?
Where the heck is the center of your axis????????? Complete state ownership of all property??????
Obama is a boilerplate left wing politician, probably the furthest left of any American President in history with the possible exception of Jimmy Carter, I guess you'd call him a centrist????
This is ludicrous, I'm sorry.
On a global scale, he is correct. The American Democratic party would be considered right wing in most other 1st world nations.
The American left and right are both wildly different from where they are in other parts of the world.
You can't nearly judge American politics by European or even Canadian standards. Different rules apply, and the two permanent alternating coalitions that govern American politics make radicalization a great deal harder than it could ever possibly be in a parliamentary system.
The whole thing was designed to push both parties to the middle, and it succeeded impressively. Truth be told, there is very, very little radicalization in either political party right now -- by design. The Republicans get a horrible rap because of a few loudmouths, but when you look at what they actually do they're really not all that far right compared to your standard right wing core party in Europe.
There is nothing near the level of organization of either the GOP or the Dems as there is in equivalent parliamentary parties, and crossing the aisle, which would be a near-heresy within a parliamentary party, is actually encouraged. Bipartisanship you know. It can be the only way to get things done at times. So everything turns into a compromise and neither side is particularly good at "holding the party line."
It's just a different system altogether.
That is entirely incorrect.
The GOP of Goldwater is dead. They have become a party run by religion and have actively sought to enforce their religious views through government.
Need an example? The party is trying to ammend the constitution to ban gay marriage in this country. Let that sink in a little bit... they want to strip away state rights... not even interracial marriages were constitutionally banned.
The GOP has really gone off the rails in the last 20-30 years.
Don't get me started on Palin. She wasn't a very good candidate at all, but the hatchet job done on her by the media was just embarrassing. She wasn't as articulate as I wanted a Vice Presidential candidate to be, but she didn't deserve to be made a household name or the picture in the dictionary under the word "ditz" like she was.
Oh come on...
Asking a person what they read isn't a gotcha question. Palin wasn't a hatchet job, it was putting an idiot on stage and letting then letting her embarrass herself.
That Palin remains a darling to the radical right is a scary thought.
You could argue that Obama is right of Nixon. He only appears to be so far "left" because the Republicans keep moving further to the right.
This.
The GOP has made a significant shift over the last 20-30 years. The historical GOP wouldn't impose their will in the bedroom or constitutionally strip states of their rights.
Asking a person what they read isn't a gotcha question. Palin wasn't a hatchet job, it was putting an idiot on stage and letting then letting her embarrass herself.
That Palin remains a darling to the radical right is a scary thought.
Just got done watching Game Change. She didn't even know why Korea was 2 different countries, thought the political leader of Britain was the Queen and believed like all idiot wing nuts that Iraq attacked us on 911. Her foreign policy knowledge was zilch.
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History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.
Palin was a Vice Presidential candidate behind one of the most centrist Republicans of his generation. Seriously, if you can't at least concede that McCain's as moderate as Republicans get, I don't know what to say.
And her policies didn't entitle the media to haul off and murder her image like they did. If you don't like her policies, focus on her policies, don't pick on her appearance and verbal tics, that's just shallow
True, but because McCain was so centrist, he really didn't have a hope in the race unless he picked someone as extremely far right as Palin as his running mate. The fact that McCain was in his 70s didn't help matters, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dojji
Don't get me started on Palin. She wasn't a very good candidate at all, but the hatchet job done on her by the media was just embarrassing. She wasn't as articulate as I wanted a Vice Presidential candidate to be, but she didn't deserve to be made a household name or the picture in the dictionary under the word "ditz" like she was. Frankly Biden was worse as a candidate and as a human being (was actually convicted of plagarism back in the day). But you wouldn't know that to watch on the telly, would you?
Watch this and then tell me Palin is a better human being and a better candidate:
Last edited by Leafsdude7: 03-24-2012 at 06:08 PM.
The GOP of Goldwater is dead. They have become a party run by religion and have actively sought to enforce their religious views through government.
Need an example? The party is trying to ammend the constitution to ban gay marriage in this country. Let that sink in a little bit... they want to strip away state rights... not even interracial marriages were constitutionally banned.
The GOP has really gone off the rails in the last 20-30 years.
While I am not going to disagree with this at all, it has largely been a two-sided phenomenon. The Republicans have indeed shifted to the right at a faster rate, but the Democrats have shifted to the left in unison.
The realignment of the Southern Democrats carved out much of the moderate base of the Democrat Party, along with the isolation of the neoconservatives after/during the Vietnam War.
Asking a person what they read isn't a gotcha question. Palin wasn't a hatchet job, it was putting an idiot on stage and letting then letting her embarrass herself.
That Palin remains a darling to the radical right is a scary thought.
This. Although it's interesting to see an acolyte of Big Phil here. The similarities are impressive.
Obama is a boilerplate left wing politician, probably the furthest left of any American President in history with the possible exception of Jimmy Carter, I guess you'd call him a centrist????
well you quite obviously don't have a clue about anything.
The GOP of Goldwater is dead. They have become a party run by religion and have actively sought to enforce their religious views through government.
Show me once. One time. When Republican politicians have sought to enforce their religious views through government.
The closest you're going to get is the gay marriage debate. And in case you've forgotten, the gay marriage issue is the DEMOCRATS and their leftwing allies attempting to push through changes to the law, frequently through the court system, bypassing the democratic process altogether, and the sum total of Republican involvement is to resist the change.
Heck, that's pretty much all the Republicans ever do these days, is try to undo changes the Democrats make.
Quote:
Need an example? The party is trying to ammend the constitution to ban gay marriage in this country. Let that sink in a little bit... they want to strip away state rights... not even interracial marriages were constitutionally banned.
I hope you're not a Democrat making this argument. Because Democrats stopped believing in states rights at about the time of John C Calhoun.
I learned long ago that states have no actual rights, just powers granted by courtesy from the federal government until they'd rather take a facet of government over themselves. The Department of Education was the last death knell of any form of states rights. Education had always been the virtually exclusive purview of the states. There was no need, cause, or Constitutionally ordained authority required to make that exclusively completely cease to exist. Just legislative fiat and completely ignoring the outrage of Constitutionalists.
Where was your states rights argument on the helth care debate, or on the education debate, or when they legalized abortion by federal judicial fiat?
Trying to go back to the issue of states rights now is just a bad joke. It's an argument of convenience or nothing else.
Quote:
The GOP has really gone off the rails in the last 20-30 years.
Honestly? I feel the same way about the Democrats.
Show me once. One time. When Republican politicians have sought to enforce their religious views through government.
The closest you're going to get is the gay marriage debate. And in case you've forgotten, the gay marriage issue is the DEMOCRATS and their leftwing allies attempting to push through changes to the law, frequently through the court system, bypassing the democratic process altogether, and the sum total of Republican involvement is to resist the change.
You ask for one example and then provide one, pretty self-defeating argument you have there.
Gay marriage. Creationism. Roe v. Wade. The agenda of the GOP fell in lock step with the religious right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dojji
Heck, that's pretty much all the Republicans ever do these days, is try to undo changes the Democrats make.
Really? So which ammendment to the Constition did the Democrats push through that recognized gay marriage?
that is because you are quite obviously a conservative who likes to think of himself as an independent moderate.
I never said I was a moderate. Frankly, I think the Republicans are much too indecisive. I could forgive them more for being actual radicals, than I could for vacillating the way they have in the last 20 years.
Given the bias of the media, the Republicans need to accept that they'll never get good press, and stop trying to seek it so desperately. They have their own ways to get their message out, such as talk radio. They're not going to win the media when the media is 70% registered Democrats. Go and do what you have to and deal with the consequences. It's what the left has been doing.
The Southern Democrats weren't necessarily more centrist on issues, it's way too complex to say that the Southerners flocking to the GOP suggests a policy postion issue. It had more to do with the Christian Right organizing and leading to southern voters' priorities changing from economics to social issues. FDR's largest base in support was in the deep south, as was Kennedy's.
FDR's largest base in support was in the deep south, as was Kennedy's.
That has more to do with hereditary politics than it does with actually agreeing with Democratic leadership.
The Solid South was solid because the Republicans were the ones who inflicted Reconstruction on the South, and the memories of the old school South are very, very long.
