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So IS Giroux a top 5 player in the NHL?

View Poll Results: Is Claude Giroux a top 5 player in the NHL?
Yes 63 36.42%
No 110 63.58%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-25-2012, 10:57 PM
  #51
Wheatking
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First 34 games- 18 goals and 48 points
Prorated: 82 games- 43 goals and 116 points

Last 37 games- 9 goals and 38 points
Prorated: 82 games- 20 goals and 84 points

I can see settling into more of a 30 goal/85 point player.

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Old
03-25-2012, 11:04 PM
  #52
TopShelfYzerman
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hes #8 as a forward worst if you include all positions....

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03-25-2012, 11:10 PM
  #53
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I reserve the top spots for those who are undoubtably one of the best at something for a period of time, not 1 season. Just like those claiming Perry was a top 5 player last year after a Hart worthy year yet nobody would put him in the top 20 this year. The players who have had strings of great seasons meaning trophies or high point totals or a combination of both should be reserved for the top 5. Maybe if he got 1 trophy after this year you could argue he's top 5 but I choose to go with those that have a reputation and still dominating the game. Datsyuk, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Sedins, Toews.

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Old
03-25-2012, 11:12 PM
  #54
Tad Mikowsky
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
I would loooooooove to see your top 30 sir
that's the same guy who considers RNH to be a below average player.

He's not exactly a good judge on talent.

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03-25-2012, 11:50 PM
  #55
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Put it this way, if Giroux was a legit top 5 player there wouldn't be much doubt. I think most people concede Ovechkin is no longer a top 5 player but it's clear when he was at his best, he was top 5. Same for Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Joe Thornton etc. Giroux has not reached those levels yet. People are throwing all these names out there, to me it's just common sense he's not on the same level as Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos. An argument can be made that he's 4 or 5 but it's a pretty weak argument if you ask me. The sedins are still better than Giroux imo, I would take Tavares' potential over Giroux's as well. I haven't even started talking about defensemen. Everyone knows Weber, Suter, Chara etc. What about Pietrangelo? You're the GM of the blues and Holmgren calls you with an offer of Giroux for Pietrangelo straight up. Do you take it? I think most people would if Giroux was a bonafide top 5 player, the fact that he is not makes you step back and think a little.

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03-25-2012, 11:52 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Immanuel View Post
It can be held against them if you use perspective. A player like Datsyuk helps his team more compared to a specialist like Malkin. Since Datsyuk plays hard minutes it trickles down and makes it easier on the depth players. That effect is real and must be accounted for.
Well yeah i obviously agree with that if you look at my comments.lol

My point is it still takes a special player to put up those points, a guy like Sedin is still an 80-90 point guy without Kesler. It's why i think guys like Toews and Koivu are better players than Giroux.

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03-26-2012, 12:05 AM
  #57
Sasso09
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Originally Posted by BautistaBOMB View Post
Put it this way, if Giroux was a legit top 5 player there wouldn't be much doubt. I think most people concede Ovechkin is no longer a top 5 player but it's clear when he was at his best, he was top 5. Same for Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Joe Thornton etc. Giroux has not reached those levels yet. People are throwing all these names out there, to me it's just common sense he's not on the same level as Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos. An argument can be made that he's 4 or 5 but it's a pretty weak argument if you ask me. The sedins are still better than Giroux imo, I would take Tavares' potential over Giroux's as well. I haven't even started talking about defensemen. Everyone knows Weber, Suter, Chara etc. What about Pietrangelo? You're the GM of the blues and Holmgren calls you with an offer of Giroux for Pietrangelo straight up. Do you take it? I think most people would if Giroux was a bonafide top 5 player, the fact that he is not makes you step back and think a little.
I can see the blues saying no because they already have him.. But if you're asking what player a neutral GM would take out of Giroux and Pietrangelo there's no hesitation... Giroux is a top 5 center signed for 3.75 for 3 more years

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03-26-2012, 12:19 AM
  #58
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Ovechkin will be back

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03-26-2012, 12:20 AM
  #59
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I don't see the point in ranking forwards and dmen together, some I'm going to pretend this thread is about "top 5 forwards." I would say *ALMOST* but not quite. My top 5 forwards right now, in no particular order, are Malkin, Crosby, Toews, Datsyuk and Stamkos. Giroux is 6th for me, I have him just a bit ahead of guys like the Sedins, Spezza, Hossa and Kovalchuk.

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03-26-2012, 12:23 AM
  #60
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Top 5 forward maybe top 5 player no way

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03-26-2012, 12:46 AM
  #61
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Malkin, Sid, Datsyuk, Stamkos, Giroux. They have complete offensive skillsets. And are gamebreakers.

Ovy's making a case to get back in there though.

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03-26-2012, 12:47 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Immanuel View Post
It can be held against them if you use perspective. A player like Datsyuk helps his team more compared to a specialist like Malkin. Since Datsyuk plays hard minutes it trickles down and makes it easier on the depth players. That effect is real and must be accounted for.
Leading the scoring race for 10+ points with having played 8-10 games less than other competition is pretty impressive. Easy points or not. If your statement holds any kind of water, the specialists playing defensive hockey would be much higher regarded than the offensive superstars. The reason why J. Staal does not put up 100+ seasons, is cause he can't not cause he does not want to.

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03-26-2012, 01:17 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopShelfYzerman View Post
I reserve the top spots for those who are undoubtably one of the best at something for a period of time, not 1 season.
So basically you find it impossible to ever make a top 5 or top 10 list. I fail to see how what a player did two years ago has anything to do with what is going on in the world right now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TopShelfYzerman View Post
Maybe if he got 1 trophy after this year you could argue he's top 5 but I choose to go with those that have a reputation and still dominating the game. Datsyuk, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Sedins, Toews.
So if, based on one season of play (this season), Giroux is awarded a piece of hardware that would somehow change or alter in some way what we've all seen him accomplish this season? And even then you'd only think about it? It sounds like you place entirely too much of your analysis on the shoulders of others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BautistaBOMB View Post
Put it this way, if Giroux was a legit top 5 player there wouldn't be much doubt.
Really? So each and every year there should be a general consensus as to a clear cut top 5 and top 10 players. Most years it's pretty obvious who is above all the rest, occasionally there will be years when it's two guys head and shoulders above the rest of the league. But never is there a clear cut top 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BautistaBOMB View Post
What about Pietrangelo? You're the GM of the blues and Holmgren calls you with an offer of Giroux for Pietrangelo straight up. Do you take it? I think most people would if Giroux was a bonafide top 5 player
Incorrectly answering your own hypothetical isn't helping your case.


I really don't see why or how people are saying that 'one season a player does not make'. His production has steadily increased each year he's been in the league and as a sub-24 year old has compiled a playoff resume of 38 points in 40 games. He's been a bigger game player than either of the Sedins or Stamkos. I also wouldn't consider Toews ahead of him definitely, it's more of a personal preference thing if anything. I take Giroux because I think he has the higher end offensive skill set.

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Old
03-26-2012, 01:21 AM
  #64
billybudd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Immanuel View Post
Malkin is not as good as the players I listed.

The points he gets are extremely easy compared to most other players. For one it's easier to get points in the east. For two it's easier to get points when you start 65% of your shifts in the offensive zone because Jordan Staal does the real work for you.

He's very good, sure, but he's not among the best IMO. Not all points are equal in value. A similar situation exists in Vancouver. Kesler does the real work and the Sedins finish the job.
Advanced stats are a useful supplemental resource, but they're still a supplemental resource. If you try to use them as a primary method of analysis, you will come to bizarre conclusions like "Scott Gomez is better than Brad Richards" or, well, this.

If Malkin were worse than the players you mentioned they would see shadows regularly and he would not. It's the other way around. And only someone who is using things like zone starts as a primary method of player analysis, rather than for a bit of context in terms of usage, could claim a guy who sees shadows is playing easy minutes. When you have a shadow, no points are easy to come by, no matter what your "qualcomp" is. Shea Weber just being on the ice at the same time is not a situation that makes it more difficult to produce than Paul Gaustad following you everywhere you go at all times on every shift.

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03-26-2012, 01:35 AM
  #65
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The only defenseman I take over him is Weber.
And I'd take Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Datsyuk over him as well.
Questionables are Sedins, Tavares, and Toews.

Top 10? Definitely, top 5? Very close but I wouldn't put him there quite yet.

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03-26-2012, 01:35 AM
  #66
Chain Attack
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
So basically...



So if,....




Really? So each and every year...
So what you're saying is you don't agree with me.

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03-26-2012, 01:40 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by BautistaBOMB View Post
So what you're saying is you don't agree with me.
Preeeetty much.

I think the idea that a consensus top 5 exists is a rather zealous position. I'm even willing to be gracious with the definition and say that there are probably 6-8 players who one could make legitimate cases for belonging in the top 5. Obviously, I have my own top 5 but I'm willing to make a distinction between "my list" and a "reasonable list." There are probably 6-8 legitimate "top 5" players.

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03-26-2012, 01:42 AM
  #68
Chain Attack
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Preeeetty much.

I think the idea that a consensus top 5 exists is a rather zealous position. I'm even willing to be gracious with the definition and say that there are probably 6-8 players who one could make legitimate cases for belonging in the top 5. Obviously, I have my own top 5 but I'm willing to make a distinction between "my list" and a "reasonable list." There are probably 6-8 legitimate "top 5" players.
Honestly, I don't care about it as much as you do. I'm open to the possibility of Giroux as a top 5 future player. He's just not there for me yet.

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03-26-2012, 01:45 AM
  #69
Ched Brosky
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people keep forgetting the 2 guys that most recently won the art ross.
How bout once Giroux wins one we put him ahead of those 2

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03-26-2012, 02:03 AM
  #70
TopShelfYzerman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
So basically you find it impossible to ever make a top 5 or top 10 list. I fail to see how what a player did two years ago has anything to do with what is going on in the world right now.




So if, based on one season of play (this season), Giroux is awarded a piece of hardware that would somehow change or alter in some way what we've all seen him accomplish this season? And even then you'd only think about it? It sounds like you place entirely too much of your analysis on the shoulders of others.




Really? So each and every year there should be a general consensus as to a clear cut top 5 and top 10 players. Most years it's pretty obvious who is above all the rest, occasionally there will be years when it's two guys head and shoulders above the rest of the league. But never is there a clear cut top 5.



Incorrectly answering your own hypothetical isn't helping your case.


I really don't see why or how people are saying that 'one season a player does not make'. His production has steadily increased each year he's been in the league and as a sub-24 year old has compiled a playoff resume of 38 points in 40 games. He's been a bigger game player than either of the Sedins or Stamkos. I also wouldn't consider Toews ahead of him definitely, it's more of a personal preference thing if anything. I take Giroux because I think he has the higher end offensive skill set.
you think.... Toews still has a much better career up till this point. Toews easy.

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03-26-2012, 02:31 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by BautistaBOMB View Post
Honestly, I don't care about it as much as you do.
Yeah I'm losing sleep over this one.

I think the whole idea of ranking players, which is a bit of a circle jerk around here, is a tad silly anyways. I don't really think in those terms when I watch hockey games or individual players.

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03-26-2012, 02:36 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by TopShelfYzerman View Post
you think.... Toews still has a much better career up till this point. Toews easy.
On the 'higher end offensive skill set' part I think the majority of people would agree with me.

And the question of career is different than a question of current standing within the hockey world.

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03-26-2012, 07:46 AM
  #73
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Well hey, maybe I'm not wrong after all!

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03-26-2012, 08:30 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Advanced stats are a useful supplemental resource, but they're still a supplemental resource. If you try to use them as a primary method of analysis, you will come to bizarre conclusions like "Scott Gomez is better than Brad Richards" or, well, this.

If Malkin were worse than the players you mentioned they would see shadows regularly and he would not. It's the other way around. And only someone who is using things like zone starts as a primary method of player analysis, rather than for a bit of context in terms of usage, could claim a guy who sees shadows is playing easy minutes. When you have a shadow, no points are easy to come by, no matter what your "qualcomp" is. Shea Weber just being on the ice at the same time is not a situation that makes it more difficult to produce than Paul Gaustad following you everywhere you go at all times on every shift.
ugh, I know how to use statistics. Thanks though, for your concern.

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Old
03-26-2012, 08:46 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
You can't be a top 5 player after 1 great year.I don't even think he's top 10

Crosby
Weber
Malkin
Datsuyk
Stamkos
Toews
Chara
Thomas
Perry
Miller

and there are plenty of others. If he has another outstanding year or two he's in the conversation, but i don't think he'll ever be that good. Top 10-15 longterm yeah, but in the conversation for best player in the world, not too likely IMO.
So Miller is the best goalie?

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