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The Leaf Fans Version of the "Are We There Yet" Whine

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Old
03-27-2012, 11:56 AM
  #101
Mowerman
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Burke will eventually be fired for the results on the ice. Wait and see.
I'll eventually die as well. If Burke was going to be fired, of course he'd be fired for the results on the ice. What a pathetic "claim". You've stated absolutely nothing beyond something a 5 year old could reason. Step it up a notch please.

Who says bringing in Kessel was only a quick fix move? He's an incredibly young and incredibly gifted offensive player who is contributing huge numbers for us. What makes you think Kessel wouldn't resign with us? You haven't debunked a single point I made, or even responded to them. They are still valid. If you want to debate, actually make it interesting please.

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03-27-2012, 11:56 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
exactly!!!!
You realize that is Kessel, right?

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03-27-2012, 11:57 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
It back fired because it was a quick fix move that has resulted in zilch. Zippo. 5 year deal, 3 are done. Results...nadda.
A) If we drafted Seguin, we'd only have him for 2 more years guaranteed.

B) How is a 21 year old a "quick fix"??? Connelly is a "quick fix" to buy time for guys like Colborne, sure - but Kessel?

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03-27-2012, 11:57 AM
  #104
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You realize that is Kessel, right?
Didn't your mother teach you that it was wrong to pick on children with special needs?

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03-27-2012, 11:58 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by WendelBrown View Post
I'll eventually die as well. If Burke was going to be fired, of course he'd be fired for the results on the ice. What a pathetic "claim". You've stated absolutely nothing beyond something a 5 year old could reason. Step it up a notch please.

Who says bringing in Kessel was only a quick fix move? He's an incredibly young and incredibly gifted offensive player who is contributing huge numbers for us. What makes you think Kessel wouldn't resign with us? You haven't debunked a single point I made, or even responded to them. They are still valid. If you want to debate, actually make it interesting please.
You aren't debating. You are asking me to make projections. I did. Burke will be fired and Kessel will walk after this 5 yr deal. Both will likely occur around the same time. Although a poor start next season will fire up the Fire Burke chants and maybe that will expedite part of the process of cleansing the club.

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03-27-2012, 11:58 AM
  #106
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You don’t have to like Burke. You can complain all you want about a sentence he said 3.5 years ago. You may not like the way the organization is going – and that’s cool. But all I’m asking is can we at least get back to reasonable discussions? Sure the team has needs. Sure there is a ways to go, but are the people who are calling for Burkes head really saying that NOTHING has improved in the past 3 years? That there has not been a single good move? I've heard how the Prospect pool hasn't improved, the organization hasn't improved, the Marlies season means nothing, and the talent of the Team is worse. Seriously???
Do you understand the difference between what Burke intended to do with his accelerated re-tooling on the fly and a true draft rebuild process?

Those that support Burke and his short-term fix plan to expected earlier success, by trading and signing & buying his intended success rather than patiently drafting and developing it, have suddenly switched sides and telling draft rebuild fans to have patience and give the prospects in the system time to develop.

Do you not see the irony of that ?

We have been saying draft and play the kids from the start and realize that path is the longer road, but at least then the current struggling team during a long-term draft rebuild is acceptable if that was the course taken as its also understandable why its happening. Draft rebuild fans have always held true to belief that a quick fix patch work scheme was doomed to fail from the start.

The good news is that Burke is serving up the best of both Worlds for fans that believe in different rebuilds. Burke comes out declaring a short-term road to success because of fan impatience in a true draft rebuild, and then because of his failures as a GM to deliver on his very own promises of accelerated success, is serving up high draft picks for draft rebuild fans in the process.

Burke can run around claiming "draft schmaft, and July 1st is our entry draft" all he wants and believing he is icing a playoff team instead.. His failures however as a GM to turn the team around after 4 seasons, is the reason draft rebuild fans are excited about the future because of the hope for the future this year's draft pick holds. That might be bad for Burke's own tenure as his time is running short, but the more his current team struggles the higher the draft pick becomes which brings "tanking" like results without actually intending it to happen.

The prospect pool belongs to the draft rebuild gang that supports "play the kids" not the Burke quick fix supporters who excitedly await UFA season to open each year, to bring instant improvements.. We were always in favour of being sellers of vets Kaberle, Beauchemin, Antropov etc for futures and happy with the returns of Colborne, Gardiner, Blacker etc, to fuel the rebuild in addition to the draft picks of Kadri, Mckegg, 2012 1st & 2nd rounders. The Kessel deal really the only Burke orchestrated sabotage to a draft rebuild that cost us Seguin and 2011 high 1st rounder. A true draft rebuild fan only hopes it could better still with higher and more picks and prospects for the future.

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Signature: There is no greater demonstration of Fan patience then to suggest to "Play the Kids " and be willing to accept the consequences of those actions..
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03-27-2012, 11:59 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Drew75 View Post
A) If we drafted Seguin, we'd only have him for 2 more years guaranteed.

B) How is a 21 year old a "quick fix"??? Connelly is a "quick fix" to buy time for guys like Colborne, sure - but Kessel?
Under this CBA drafted players are under control for 7 years. I have no idea what you are talking about.

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03-27-2012, 12:00 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by WendelBrown View Post
Didn't your mother teach you that it was wrong to pick on children with special needs?
Care to elaborate on that?

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03-27-2012, 12:04 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
You realize that is Kessel, right?
Yes!!! We still have two more years to see success and for this team to grow before Kessel needs to be resigned and we have to worry about retaining him! A lot can happen in two years! No sense worrying about it now?

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Didn't your mother teach you that it was wrong to pick on children with special needs?
Are you suggesting I'm a special needs child?

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03-27-2012, 12:07 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
You aren't debating. You are asking me to make projections. I did. Burke will be fired and Kessel will walk after this 5 yr deal. Both will likely occur around the same time. Although a poor start next season will fire up the Fire Burke chants and maybe that will expedite part of the process of cleansing the club.
No. You made a claim about Kessel being a "quick fix", and I denied the validity of it. Give me a legitimate source that indicates Kessel has any intention of leaving the Leafs and I'll take that one seriously. There is absolutely nothing, as far as I'm concerned, that indicates Kessel is merely a "quick fix". Other than a brief hiccup with the media which was quickly addressed by Kessel clarifying that he wants to be a Leaf for a long time, there has been nothing from either the Leafs or Kessel that indicates that they do not want this to be a long term arrangement. The onus is on you to demonstrate otherwise. Please substantiate your claim.

Other than that you had merely said that Burke will be fired because of lack of performance on the ice. That isn't a projection, that's stating the rationale behind basically every firing of an NHL General Manager.

Now at least you've given a rough timeframe. Again, do you have anything outside of your own inane ramblings or the verbal diarrhea of other insignificant people to back up your projection?

^ Of course not sweetie.

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03-27-2012, 12:11 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Do you understand the difference between what Burke intended to do with his accelerated re-tooling on the fly and a true draft rebuild process?

Those that support Burke and his short-term fix plan to expected earlier success, by trading and signing & buying his intended success rather than patiently drafting and developing it, have suddenly switched sides and telling draft rebuild fans to have patience and give the prospects in the system time to develop.

Do you not see the irony of that ?

We have been saying draft and play the kids from the start and realize that path is the longer road, but at least then the current struggling team during a long-term draft rebuild is acceptable if that was the course taken as its also understandable why its happening. Draft rebuild fans have always held true to belief that a quick fix patch work scheme was doomed to fail from the start.

.
Patience!?!?!?! You want to draft players and throw them in the mix right away? How is that patient?? That is a horrible idea! You draft players, let them play in the minors while they can, then let them develop in the AHL while do some call-up duties. Very few players just come straight to the NHL.

Do you know the difference between draft rebuild and a tanking draft rebuild???

Last time I checked Burke has a long list of drafted players. More than the previous management systems!

But you are talking about tanking and drafting, not a draft rebuild! You just want the opposite of whatever happend because you have a serious case of 'Greener Grass" sydrome!!

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03-27-2012, 12:12 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by WendelBrown;46800427[B
]No. You made a claim about Kessel being a "quick fix", and I denied the validity of it. [/B]Give me a legitimate source that indicates Kessel has any intention of leaving the Leafs and I'll take that one seriously. There is absolutely nothing, as far as I'm concerned, that indicates Kessel is merely a "quick fix". Other than a brief hiccup with the media which was quickly addressed by Kessel clarifying that he wants to be a Leaf for a long time, there has been nothing from either the Leafs or Kessel that indicates that they do not want this to be a long term arrangement. The onus is on you to demonstrate otherwise. Please substantiate your claim.

Other than that you had merely said that Burke will be fired because of lack of performance on the ice. That isn't a projection, that's stating the rationale behind basically every firing of an NHL General Manager.

Now at least you've given a rough timeframe. Again, do you have anything outside of your own inane ramblings or the verbal diarrhea of other insignificant people to back up your projection?

^ Of course not sweetie.
You can deny it but Burke's own words and actions refute that denial.

"I'm not interested ... in a five-year rebuild like some of these teams have done," said Burke. "Maybe because of my age, maybe just because I know it doesn't have to be five years because it wasn't in Anaheim."

That is not the words of a man looking to slowly build. By his actions and words there is ample evidence that he wanted to "win now" and thought he could based on past experiences. He said it himself and acquired assets to try and do so. It didn't work.

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03-27-2012, 12:13 PM
  #113
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If you want to know what Burke was planning with his accelerated rebuild just look at the Florida Panthers under Dale Tallon. Quick massive turnover and a cupboard full I prospects overnight. Problem is Burke brought in the wrong NHLers and the youth he has brought in has been unspectacular through the lost wallet program and wasted tank years. Kessel is a fine player but his presence only accelerated expectations when Hall/Seguin would have been given an Anthropoulous breadth of patience. Oh wellzzzz...

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03-27-2012, 12:14 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
Patience!?!?!?! You want to draft players and throw them in the mix right away? How is that patient?? That is a horrible idea! You draft players, let them play in the minors while they can, then let them develop in the AHL while do some call-up duties. Very few players just come straight to the NHL.

Do you know the difference between draft rebuild and a tanking draft rebuild???

Last time I checked Burke has a long list of drafted players. More than the previous management systems!

But you are talking about tanking and drafting, not a draft rebuild! You just want the opposite of whatever happend because you have a serious case of 'Greener Grass" sydrome!!
Those in favor of the draft rebuild have patience. Burke admitted that he didn't and burned assets. It is clear as day what his approach was and he outlined it.

"I'm not interested ... in a five-year rebuild like some of these teams have done," said Burke. "Maybe because of my age, maybe just because I know it doesn't have to be five years because it wasn't in Anaheim."

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03-27-2012, 12:20 PM
  #115
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And exactly what standings are you basing the Nik Antropov/Matt Stajan team on? Woudlbe pretty hard to find a standing for a team that doesn't exist?
the 08-09 "garbage" team that burke inhereted. his current team needs 6 points in its last 6 games to be as good as that garbage.

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03-27-2012, 12:23 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
You can deny it but Burke's own words and actions refute that denial.

"I'm not interested ... in a five-year rebuild like some of these teams have done," said Burke. "Maybe because of my age, maybe just because I know it doesn't have to be five years because it wasn't in Anaheim."

That is not the words of a man looking to slowly build. By his actions and words there is ample evidence that he wanted to "win now" and thought he could based on past experiences. He said it himself and acquired assets to try and do so. It didn't work.
That has nothing to do with Kessel being a long term asset for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Burke didn't want to do an incredibly long and grueling rebuilding process by repeatedly failing. While you can criticize that all you want, the end result isn't bad. We have a team that for the majority of the year was producing and competing in a playoff position, great depth in our prospect pool, a host of young and talented players who are either playing in the NHL or close to being NHL ready, and will be adding at least one incredibly talented and promising prospect this year.

We have an incredibly young team that for the majority of the year was playing competitive, playoff-calibre hockey. The collapse was absolutely horrendous, granted, but you can't deny what we saw for the majority of the year. We'll probably have a few more solid additions, a healthy and conditioned Reimer with a veteran back up, and maybe Colbs/Kadri will be up with the big club producing.

I don't know what you see, but I see a cohesive and consistent plan. We've been adding NHL ready or close to NHL ready young players for a few years now and we're starting to see the returns of that. That is consistent with what Burke has been stating.

Now that we have that out of the way, can we not lose focus? I asked you to demonstrate, with evidence, why you believe Phil Kessel is a short-term asset for the Toronto Maple Leafs. He is a long term, elite asset as far as I'm concerned. Again, substantiate your claim and show me why I should believe otherwise.

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03-27-2012, 12:23 PM
  #117
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Phil Kessel will never be good enough for the Leafs. He could win the Ross, the Hart, and the Rocket trophy in one year, and people would STILL complain about how soft he and his defensive abilities are.
you know when he'll be good enough? when he wins the stanley cup in toronto.

you're actually right, i couldn't care less about his individual stats and awards. just help us win the stanley cup.

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03-27-2012, 12:25 PM
  #118
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you know when he'll be good enough? when he wins the stanley cup in toronto.

you're actually right, i couldn't care less about his individual stats and awards. just help us win the stanley cup.
"We could have won two cups already with Seguin!!!"

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03-27-2012, 12:26 PM
  #119
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That has nothing to do with Kessel being a long term asset for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Burke didn't want to do an incredibly long and grueling rebuilding process by repeatedly failing. While you can criticize that all you want, the end result isn't bad. We have a team that for the majority of the year was producing and competing in a playoff position, great depth in our prospect pool, a host of young and talented players who are either playing in the NHL or close to being NHL ready, and will be adding at least one incredibly talented and promising prospect this year.

We have an incredibly young team that for the majority of the year was playing competitive, playoff-calibre hockey. The collapse was absolutely horrendous, granted, but you can't deny what we saw for the majority of the year. We'll probably have a few more solid additions, a healthy and conditioned Reimer with a veteran back up, and maybe Colbs/Kadri will be up with the big club producing.

I don't know what you see, but I see a cohesive and consistent plan. We've been adding NHL ready or close to NHL ready young players for a few years now and we're starting to see the returns of that. That is consistent with what Burke has been stating.

Now that we have that out of the way, can we not lose focus? I asked you to demonstrate, with evidence, why you believe Phil Kessel is a short-term asset for the Toronto Maple Leafs. He is a long term, elite asset as far as I'm concerned. Again, substantiate your claim and show me why I should believe otherwise.
He has two years left on his contract and will be an UFA. Now you demonstrate to me the evidence that he has any longer.

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03-27-2012, 12:28 PM
  #120
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Those in favor of the draft rebuild have patience. Burke admitted that he didn't and burned assets. It is clear as day what his approach was and he outlined it.

"I'm not interested ... in a five-year rebuild like some of these teams have done," said Burke. "Maybe because of my age, maybe just because I know it doesn't have to be five years because it wasn't in Anaheim."
I don't see in there anywhere where he says he isn't going to draft players????


People seem to think that this team hasn't drafted anyone sicne trading those two picks???

Since 2009 Burke has drafted 23 times and Edmonton has drafted 27 times.
We had 3 first round picks while they had 4, they had 2 more 2 round picks than us and one more third.

This doesn't exactly spell two teams building in a vastly different manner! You can say Edmonton picked higher and had higher draft choices but one can not control that! One can only control how many picks you have and we have to a point kept pace!

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03-27-2012, 12:30 PM
  #121
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I don't see in there anywhere where he says he isn't going to draft players????


People seem to think that this team hasn't drafted anyone sicne trading those two picks???

Since 2009 Burke has drafted 23 times and Edmonton has drafted 27 times.
We had 3 first round picks while they had 4, they had 2 more 2 round picks than us and one more third.

This doesn't exactly spell two teams building in a vastly different manner! You can say Edmonton picked higher and had higher draft choices but one can not control that! One can only control how many picks you have and we have to a point kept pace!
I can't help you if you think late first round picks are equivalent to top 5 and in this case 1st overalls.

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03-27-2012, 12:31 PM
  #122
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I don't see in there anywhere where he says he isn't going to draft players????


People seem to think that this team hasn't drafted anyone sicne trading those two picks???

Since 2009 Burke has drafted 23 times and Edmonton has drafted 27 times.
We had 3 first round picks while they had 4, they had 2 more 2 round picks than us and one more third.

This doesn't exactly spell two teams building in a vastly different manner! You can say Edmonton picked higher and had higher draft choices but one can not control that! One can only control how many picks you have and we have to a point kept pace!
Sure they can control it. The Leafs traded away their high picks and acquired late round picks. They controlled the entire thing.

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03-27-2012, 12:32 PM
  #123
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I can't speak for you (nor would I want to face the repercussions of that), but at the end of the day I'd rather be in the position we are in than Boston in regards to those trades. We got the best asset far and away, a big bodied, skilled prospect who will be playing in our top 6 in a year or two most likely, etc etc.
this is amazing. you do know that boston just won the stanley cup after making those trades, right?

you'd rather have what you consider to be great players and prospects than to actually win the stanley cup. you're missing the point of the entire league.

anyone else not really interested in the stanley cup? more interested in having players who, in our opinion, are great?

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03-27-2012, 12:35 PM
  #124
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I can't help you if you think late first round picks are equivalent to top 5 and in this case 1st overalls.
They are 1st round picks? Burke can only build through the draft dependent on where his team finishes or the team he acquired the pick from finishes?

You suggested Burke is not building through the draft, clearly he is! He's just not tanking and building through the draft as you would like?

You can say he could've not made the Kessel deal and had 26 picks but 23 picks + Kessel is a very nice consolation prize.

You have suggested Burke shoudl have made those deals to acquire the 4 first rounders which would be at best mid level firsts? Now you say those are no good for a rebuild???? So why trade proven players for them?

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03-27-2012, 12:40 PM
  #125
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this is amazing. you do know that boston just won the stanley cup after making those trades, right?

you'd rather have what you consider to be great players and prospects than to actually win the stanley cup. you're missing the point of the entire league.

anyone else not really interested in the stanley cup? more interested in having players who, in our opinion, are great?
Yes...most of Leafs nation. Thats why the Leafs have the longest Cup drought. They will shatter the Black Hawks futility record. The team is so far from contending, it is depressing. Yet we have more than half the Leaf fans on this forum who are content with the GM. With the team. This organization has to rank up there in all of sports as one of the most inept sports franchises. Stanley Cup? Toronto just wants to make the playoffs and they will crown Mr. Burke as the greatest GM of all time. In fact many of the Burke lovers have already done so. I want to puke. Ooooh I cant wait until Brad Ross tears up the league.

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