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Recent prospects that have neither excelled or greatly disappointed can be considered somewhat relative in value to where they were drafted.
Until the Leafs see what they have in Kadri, they should value him relative to where they drafted him. If the Canucks don't see the value in Kadri then why would they want to acquire him? Why would the Leafs sell low on an asset this young?
Recent prospects that have neither excelled or greatly disappointed can be considered somewhat relative in value to where they were drafted.
Until the Leafs see what they have in Kadri, they should value him relative to where they drafted him. If the Canucks don't see the value in Kadri then why would they want to acquire him? Why would the Leafs sell low on an asset this young?
that's debatable - Ashton a recent 1st rounder was just traded for Aulie a recent 3rd or 4th rounder so apparently TB didn't subscribe to your theory of recent draft picks
I don't think Leafs really have much that we'd want, your 1st would be an asset we'd want, I don't want Schenn for Schneider as I don't think Schenn would fit into the Canucks system, Gillis let Mitchell go because of this. Gardiner would be solid but we have Edler, Hamhuis and Ballard on that side already and I don't see him beating out Hamhuis or Edler. Outside of their 1st what could the Leafs offer us of value for our young elite skilled goalie?
You call Schneider a Young (26 years old... Many good years left but certainly past "prospect" status by most definitions) elite (has only played 64 games so "elite" might be a stretch...) skilled (certainly skilled, but hard to know how he would perform with the number one role on a bottom 4-8 team in the league).
Of course the Canucks would want the Leafs first ... It has a great chance to be 6th overall if not a lottery pick. Schneider is very similar to a couple goalies the Leafs got burned by in the past, and it doesn't make sense for the Leafs to give up an asset they need and value higher than Schneider. Just because you, the Canucks, Canuck fans, or HF board posters want something doesn't make it more logical or realistic.
The Leafs won't and shouldn't trade their potential lottery pick for an unproven backup. In their situation it's just bad asset managment.
that's debatable - Ashton a recent 1st rounder was just traded for Aulie a recent 3rd or 4th rounder so apparently TB didn't subscribe to your theory of recent draft picks
Aulie had developed in relative comparison to Ashton.
Runblad for the pick that got Tarasenko is a good example. Runblad had neither raised or decreased his value and was moved for the pick pretty close to his draft position. What boils down to Hodgson for Kassian was a recent move of a 10th for a 13th.
The Leafs drafted Kadri 7th overall. They valued him as such at the time, and he has neither increased or decreased his value to the organization relative to that position. The Leafs value him as a 7th overall ... If the Canucks don't and now consider him a later pick and believe that's appropriate value for Schneider, then they should look elsewhere
You call Schneider a Young (26 years old... Many good years left but certainly past "prospect" status by most definitions) elite (has only played 64 games so "elite" might be a stretch...) skilled (certainly skilled, but hard to know how he would perform with the number one role on a bottom 4-8 team in the league).
Of course the Canucks would want the Leafs first ... It has a great chance to be 6th overall if not a lottery pick. Schneider is very similar to a couple goalies the Leafs got burned by in the past, and it doesn't make sense for the Leafs to give up an asset they need and value higher than Schneider. Just because you, the Canucks, Canuck fans, or HF board posters want something doesn't make it more logical or realistic.
The Leafs won't and shouldn't trade their potential lottery pick for an unproven backup. In their situation it's just bad asset managment.
Elite skilled, he isn't elite yet but his skill level is elite and next season he will be one of the better goalies in the league. He is still young, I don't see a problem with calling Schneider a young elite skilled goalie? every report on the kid has everyone in the NHL saying he is a #1 goalie now, NJD players kept talking abut how good he was after the game we played them. TSN was even pumping Schneider tires. Nikita Filatov was a 6th overall pick and he's a bust and that was in a deep and crazy good draft. Or the 5th overall in Luke Schenn he hasn't been anything close to the next Shea Weber from what we were told he was, he's a 3rd pairing D man right now who has had a tough season, so that pick has a much higher chance at busting than Schneider who is already one of the top younger goalies in the league.
Aulie had developed in relative comparison to Ashton.
Runblad for the pick that got Tarasenko is a good example. Runblad had neither raised or decreased his value and was moved for the pick pretty close to his draft position. What boils down to Hodgson for Kassian was a recent move of a 10th for a 13th.
The Leafs drafted Kadri 7th overall. They valued him as such at the time, and he has neither increased or decreased his value to the organization relative to that position. The Leafs value him as a 7th overall ... If the Canucks don't and now consider him a later pick and believe that's appropriate value for Schneider, then they should look elsewhere
would you trade kadri straight up for the 7th overall pick?
Value is close once you remove the conditional pick.
Guess it depends where Toronto picks... 4-7 I would do the deal, 8-10 I would look elsewhere.
Colborne over Kadri. Kadri isn't an upgrade over JS on our 3rd line.
Kadri is probably the better long term prospect but the Canucks already traded Hodgson, they would probably be looking more for a top 3 Dman than a C prospect.
Of course all of this depends on what happens in the playoffs and how the Canucks would feel about Kadri 9my guess is that he doesn't excite them) but they would need those 2 1st round picks coming back for Schneider who is a legit top flight starting goalie right now.
The real question in this deal is how important Burke thinks a top goalie is to TO (very important I'd say) compared to his trading another 2 top 1st rounders and looking like a fool like in the Kessel deal (his ego might make this even more important I'd say)
Elite skilled, he isn't elite yet but his skill level is elite and next season he will be one of the better goalies in the league. He is still young, I don't see a problem with calling Schneider a young elite skilled goalie? every report on the kid has everyone in the NHL saying he is a #1 goalie now, NJD players kept talking abut how good he was after the game we played them. TSN was even pumping Schneider tires. Nikita Filatov was a 6th overall pick and he's a bust and that was in a deep and crazy good draft. Or the 5th overall in Luke Schenn he hasn't been anything close to the next Shea Weber from what we were told he was, he's a 3rd pairing D man right now who has had a tough season, so that pick has a much higher chance at busting than Schneider who is already one of the top younger goalies in the league.
I left out the most recent picks as they have yet to develop. If I was the Leafs and I had OEL, Gagner, Michalek, Koivu, Hartnell I would not move any of those players for the CHANCE that Schneider works out. Brassard would be questionable with the need of a top C on the Leafs. On top of this the OP was suggesting there should be at least another first rounder included... That's nothing short of ridiculous.
Schneider is anything but proven. He has played what equates to less that a full season in the NHL, on a cup contender under what can be considered a sheltered situation in that it has not held the pressure of being #1.
The Leafs should not, and will not give up a top ten pick for Schneider. It does not make sense. Look elsewhere ... Perhaps TB? Or is their pick not high enough?
Last edited by Caius Merlyn: 03-27-2012 at 10:45 PM.
would you trade kadri straight up for the 7th overall pick?
Depends how the draft goes and who is left on the board at 7th... The Leafs need a big C most of all so if one was available then yes. If not, then likely no.
Of course all of this depends on what happens in the playoffs and how the Canucks would feel about Kadri 9my guess is that he doesn't excite them) but they would need those 2 1st round picks coming back for Schneider who is a legit top flight starting goalie right now.
The real question in this deal is how important Burke thinks a top goalie is to TO (very important I'd say) compared to his trading another 2 top 1st rounders and looking like a fool like in the Kessel deal (his ego might make this even more important I'd say)
At the age Reimer is now, Schneider had barely touched the NHL. Up until this season they had very similar numbers in the AHL and NHL despite one playing on a worse team at a younger age. Reimer had a good start to his NHL career, sidetracked by a significant injury. It's not the time to go all in on another goalie using high draft picks.
I have more faith Reimer will be a decent to good starting goalie, than I do someone in our organization can be the 1st line center we need. So we use our pick (and add other assets) to get a 1st line center, not a goalie.
At the age Reimer is now, Schneider had barely touched the NHL. Up until this season they had very similar numbers in the AHL and NHL despite one playing on a worse team at a younger age. Reimer had a good start to his NHL career, sidetracked by a significant injury. It's not the time to go all in on another goalie using high draft picks.
I have more faith Reimer will be a decent to good starting goalie, than I do someone in our organization can be the 1st line center we need. So we use our pick (and add other assets) to get a 1st line center, not a goalie.
Im just curious, from a leafs fan perspective, honestly when do you guys think you will make the playoffs again?
At the age Reimer is now, Schneider had barely touched the NHL. Up until this season they had very similar numbers in the AHL and NHL despite one playing on a worse team at a younger age. Reimer had a good start to his NHL career, sidetracked by a significant injury. It's not the time to go all in on another goalie using high draft picks.
I have more faith Reimer will be a decent to good starting goalie, than I do someone in our organization can be the 1st line center we need. So we use our pick (and add other assets) to get a 1st line center, not a goalie.
yea, good luck with that. Teams use a top pick hoping they can draft a 1st line center... what team is going to deal an established 1st line center for a pick that might turn out to be that good?
Even if you throw in other assets here. Your best bet would be to acquire a 1st line center with question marks, making him available for whatever reason (problems in the locker room, way too high cap hit vs performance, past his prime, etc).
Give me an example of any team out there that would deal their legit, established 1st line center for a top pick (in the 5-10 range) and whatever else you want to add to it?
Can't even see a team like SJ doing that, even though they might be tempted to make major changes and make Marleau and/or Thornton available - again this isn't a franchise that deals top players for picks, they want pieces back that can contribute right away as they are most definitely not a rebuilding team.
The type of #1 centers you'll find available are guys like Derek Roy... or you go to FA and find players like Connelly... is that the level of center you mean by acquiring a #1 center for your 1st + whatever else? You certainly aren't going to get players like Henrik Sedin or Kesler for that.
I left out the most recent picks as they have yet to develop. If I was the Leafs and I had OEL, Gagner, Michalek, Koivu, Hartnell I would not move any of those players for the CHANCE that Schneider works out. Brassard would be questionable with the need of a top C on the Leafs. On top of this the OP was suggesting there should be at least another first rounder included... That's nothing short of ridiculous.
Schneider is anything but proven. He has played what equates to less that a full season in the NHL, on a cup contender under what can be considered a sheltered situation in that it has not held the pressure of being #1.
The Leafs should not, and will not give up a top ten pick for Schneider. It does not make sense. Look elsewhere ... Perhaps TB? Or is their pick not high enough?
Sam Gagner? haha really? I'm sure Oiler fans would trade Gagner for Schenider, hell not too long ago Flyer fans were ok with Hartnell for Schneider trade. Not many players on that 6th overall list I'd pick over Schneider.. Upshall, Brule, Montoya, Filatov, Gagner, Brassard are players I'd take Schneider over and not look back.
I would say that for an unproven (take that with a grain of salt, we havn't seen how good he is as a full time starter) goalie, one of our top prospects would be fair value. We don't need mason raymond, we have him in Macarthur. With all that said, if Colbourne or Kadri is equal to Cory, then were trading a top 10 pick for a Macarthur?
The leafs should be done trading value for unproven goalies. We learned our lesson with Raycroft and Toskola. He looks good, but thats on a contending defense first team.
Kadri and Colbourne are more unproven than Schneider. Comparing him to Tosklala is laughable.
Not interested in them, they seem like busts to me. I want a potential top 6 player if thats the case.
yea, good luck with that. Teams use a top pick hoping they can draft a 1st line center... what team is going to deal an established 1st line center for a pick that might turn out to be that good?
I'm hoping to draft a 1st line center, and if we need to move up to do so we should use our additional assets to do that. I'm not interested in moving it for any other logical reason.
At the age Reimer is now, Schneider had barely touched the NHL. Up until this season they had very similar numbers in the AHL and NHL despite one playing on a worse team at a younger age. Reimer had a good start to his NHL career, sidetracked by a significant injury. It's not the time to go all in on another goalie using high draft picks.
I have more faith Reimer will be a decent to good starting goalie, than I do someone in our organization can be the 1st line center we need. So we use our pick (and add other assets) to get a 1st line center, not a goalie.
It's interesting how badly Canuck fans are trying to trade Schneider to the Leafs on multiple occassions...
Nuck fans: "Take Schneider, he's guaranteed to be a starter and can already be considered elite!"
Leaf fans: "We have other needs, however will give up some assets we have excess of"
Nucks: "We want quality assets cause we don't want or need to move him. He's elite so we want high quality in return!"
Leafs: "We will pass then as we are in no position to acquire him"
Nucks: "Pft, take him for your high assets ... You can use him no matter what your needs are!"
Im just curious, from a leafs fan perspective, honestly when do you guys think you will make the playoffs again?
You don't have to be a Leafs fan to know this as we've read enough threads on this to know... at the beginning of the season it was this year... at the beginning of last season, it was last season... there's no doubt in my mind that the majority of Leafs fans think their team will make the playoffs next year, now that this year is out again.
My guess is that it will be a few more years... I can't see Burke lasting much longer in TO. in a hockey mad market, to miss the playoffs for that many consecutive years, I'm surprised that Burke isn't out the door after this year. 4 straight non-playoff years in a die-hard rich organization would have the majority of GMs fired by now.... and when Burke is gone, the new GM will likely get some time to correct the previous regimes mistakes, as they always do, which then delays their playoff spot even further.
Burke had much less slack in Vancouver, which he took to the playoffs in his 3rd year, and kept improving in the standings every year. The fact he couldn't take his team past the 2nd round got him fired (or technically not re-signed) after his 6th season, the last 3 of which he took his team to the playoffs. He's done worse in Toronto, and I'd think that their market is much more demanding. I'm surprised there aren't more Leaf fans and Toronto media, asking for his head already.
Who knows, maybe they'll fire Burke this offseason, and give Nonis the temporary GM spot until they find a long-term solution... and then Nonis could go trade for the player he once referred to as the one guy in the league he would want to build a team around
It's interesting how badly Canuck fans are trying to trade Schneider to the Leafs on multiple occassions...
Nuck fans: "Take Schneider, he's guaranteed to be a starter and can already be considered elite!"
Leaf fans: "We have other needs, however will give up some assets we have excess of"
Nucks: "We want quality assets cause we don't want or need to move him. He's elite so we want high quality in return!"
Leafs: "We will pass then as we are in no position to acquire him"
Nucks: "Pft, take him for your high assets ... You can use him no matter what your needs are!"
Rinse. Repeat.
What high assets? The only ones they Leafs have are Kessel, Grabo maybe Lupul and their 1st round pick. I don't imagine they'd be willing to trade them anyway. None of your prospects are blue chip.
You don't have to be a Leafs fan to know this as we've read enough threads on this to know... at the beginning of the season it was this year... at the beginning of last season, it was last season... there's no doubt in my mind that the majority of Leafs fans think their team will make the playoffs next year, now that this year is out again.
My guess is that it will be a few more years... I can't see Burke lasting much longer in TO. in a hockey mad market, to miss the playoffs for that many consecutive years, I'm surprised that Burke isn't out the door after this year. 4 straight non-playoff years in a die-hard rich organization would have the majority of GMs fired by now.... and when Burke is gone, the new GM will likely get some time to correct the previous regimes mistakes, as they always do, which then delays their playoff spot even further.
Burke had much less slack in Vancouver, which he took to the playoffs in his 3rd year, and kept improving in the standings every year. The fact he couldn't take his team past the 2nd round got him fired (or technically not re-signed) after his 6th season, the last 3 of which he took his team to the playoffs. He's done worse in Toronto, and I'd think that their market is much more demanding. I'm surprised there aren't more Leaf fans and Toronto media, asking for his head already.
Who knows, maybe they'll fire Burke this offseason, and give Nonis the temporary GM spot until they find a long-term solution... and then Nonis could go trade for the player he once referred to as the one guy in the league he would want to build a team around
Im just curious, from a leafs fan perspective, honestly when do you guys think you will make the playoffs again?
I'm in a patient majority who expects another playoff bubble team next year, with another significant sell off at the mid season point next year. Assets such as MacA, Connolly, Army, Lombardi and maybe Lupul will be pending UFA's and shipped out to open space for our young guys to establish themselves. I don't think it is coincidence he has targetted players from 2008 (4 players from the top 35) and 2009 (2 1st rounders and a few 2nd rounders). Oh, and I don't expect huge returns for those guys.
Burke will then go into the summer of 2013 with a fully stocked cupboard and significant cap space. Hopefully, in the mean time we can make an upgrade here and there, and add some elite talent to compliment what we already have. Our 1st this year will sure help that.
So, I hope for playoffs next year, and expect them in 2014.
