Think the Isles would be further along in this rebuild, if they had been able to land the potential franchise d-man Larsson in last yr's draft?
I wanted Larsson as bad as most of us on here last year. Would he have helped this team? I think so, but he wouldn't have made us a surefire playoff team.
I'm a huge draftnik and I enjoy checking out prospects every year, but there are so many problems with this team from ownership, management, coaching, etc. - that one player will not put us over the top. The Draft is a nice time of year because optimism and hope reign supreme, but these are 17-18 year old kids we're talking about. You can scout them until you're blue in the face, but things can always go wrong.
Look at Taylor Hall, the kid is snakebitten so far. He would have looked really good in an Isles jersey alongside JT. Maybe we would have that dynamic duo or maybe he would still suffer the same freak injuries. Maybe, maybe, maybe.
Understandable, for the most part I feel the same way. I just can't help but think how different the direction we could be going in if we had one of those for mentioned players. If we somehow by the grace of god win the Lottery and have the chance to draft Yakupov we could be headed towards the playoffs as soon as next year. We need another can't miss pick, this way like Tavares even the Islanders couldn't mess it up. Yakupov has that talent, Murray and Grigrenko may have that talent as well.
I hear ya bro and I feel ya bro. I do it all the time too, all the 'ifs'. It makes me insane so I try to limit it.
I flip flop on whether we should tank all the time, but my desire for this team to win just trumps it EVERY time... even if I know losing might procure a brighter future. I just can't bring myself to do it. It's denial at it's finest.
The players should never tank. That's a given. They owe it to the paying fan to give it everything to win every night.
This said, your playoff spot is earned within the first 58 games of the season.
Why? Because that's when the trade deadline comes.
Management should decide by the trade deadline every season whether the team is a playoff team or not, then improve itself accordingly with additions or put the team in the position for a lottery pick while gaining assets for the future.
Everything else is useless. It's one or the other if you're looking to obtain long-term success.
Some think there are residual effects by finishing off strong, playing the spoiler well, and winning games when a playoff opportunity is more or less out of the picture. Some think it helps for the future, especially when the team is generally young. It's summed up as experience and character-building.
We did this over the last 45 games of last season after having lost a playoff spot within the first 30 games of the year. We were already out of it by then. Snow stood pat at the last trading deadline and we finished off the season in a less-than lovely fashion, then watched several UFAs simply walk, one having been a big part of the locker room.
Nonetheless, we entered this season with a better goalie, a healthy Streit and Okposo, and nominally better additions on the lower lines. A junior star 5th overall pick was joining the team and the line-up looked ripe to see no less than 11 players improve on their totals of last season, thus taking another step forward in their development.
The residual effects of last season's strong second half were seen within the first 20 games of the year as follows:
- Comeau zero points in 14 games. Waived.
- Okposo with 4 points in 20 games.
- Bailey with 3 points in 20 games.
- Grabner with 6 points in 20 games.
- Nielsen with 7 points in 20 games.
- Reasoner with 3 assists in 20 games.
- Rolston with 4 points in 20 games.
- Pandolfo with no points in 20 games.
- Junior star Niederreiter with 1 goal in 20 games.
- No consistant, nominal scoring of note from the blueline.
Yep, those were the great residual, character and confidence-building effects from our ending the season the 'right way' last year, giving it our all and management doing nothing of note at the trade deadline, i.e. neither improving the current team nor making moves to improve the future.
This year is pretty much a repeat of that, though we look to be ending a bit stronger than last season and also managed to stick around a bit longer in the playoff race, largely on the strength of Tavares, Moulson, Parenteau and Nabokov.
Our latest history would show that little will be done on the UFA market and that this team will once again enter next season looking to build on the strong end push to this season, i.e. on the residual effects.
Oh joy, and another 3 wins would all but assure us non-participation in the draft lottery.
Isles had a good record last year from Dec 16th to mid March before the injuries became too much and they dropped a bunch at the very end.
How did that turn out for this year?
In 2008 Isles won their last game. They lost out on the 4th pick, Pietrangelo and ended up with Bailey. Yeah, that last win means nothing now but having that Pietrangelo would mean so much more.
What if we won a bunch of games in the 09 draft? What if we lost out on Tavares?
In 2010 and 2011 the Isles got the 5th pick, well I guess that was fun. Give me a top 2 pick in both of those over Nino and Strome.
Yeah, I'll take the losses. I think I used to want wins but I defer to Isles Junkie on that one, that was with X amount of games left. Wins mean nothing now.
Sure a John Tavares strong performance that gets a win is ok. I'll take that Penguin victory any day.
But lose against Ottawa, Jackets, Bruins please. I'd like for them to beat the Jets in the last game and against the Pens but lose otherwise. Higher pick is definitely better. It would suck to lose out on Dumba or Murray.
Normally, I'd say finish strong. But look at this team's past few 1st rounders. They may one day be good players, but most of the players drafted ahead of them have made an immediate impact. Having a top 3 pick would help this team so much more than having a "positive vibe" at the end of yet another lost season.
I'd like to be a .500 (NHL 500) team or above. We have enough prospects and picking between 3 and 8 probably won't matter a whole lot.
Normally I would agree with these sentiments, but I hate seeing JT tethered to Moulson, Okposo, Parenteau. I see this lottery as our one and only chance at getting him a superior wing immediately. They made their point, they gave it the old college try, and they failed when it mattered. Finishing strong against teams with less and less to play for having made the playoffs already... I would much rather have a superior player for John over several meaningless wins in meaningless games.
IMO, they had the meaningful games to win the past month and they pretty much failed in all of those. Winning these games is pointless because they could win out but will still go into the summer as a bunch of gutless, spineless, hapless losers (with some exceptions of course.)
win games is the most important, build confidance and show us this team is a playoff team next season
and how did that turn out for us fans last year? the expectations were VERY high this year and the FIRST GAME OF THE YEAR, a sellout raucous crowd the islanders decided to play their hearts out rewarding the confidence their fans ha.....wait no, they **** the bed, beginning a season that a LOT of people called in the first five games(im going to wait until game 20 before i decide[game 20 arrives and they are still just ****], im going to wait until the all-star game[all-star game arrives and they are still just ****..] etc).
# RLR FC ISS Pos Name DOB HT WT
1 1 1 2 F Nail Yakupov 06-OCT-93 5.11 180 L
2 3 2 3 D Ryan Murray 27-SEP-93 6.00 182 L
3 2 4 6 D Nick Ebert 11-MAY-94 6.00 195 R
4 6 6 5 D Jacob Trouba 26-FEB-94 6.01 183 R
5 11 5 1 F Mikhail Grigorenko 16-MAY-94 6.02 192 L
6 4 8 7 D Griffin Reinhart 24-JAN-94 6.04 202 L
7 7 3 9 F Alex Galchenyuk 12-FEB-94 6.00 185 L
8 10 7 12 D Morgan Rielly 09-MAR-94 6.00 190 L
9 18 9 4 F Filip Forsberg 13-AUG-94 6.01 176 R
10 14 13 8 D Jordan Schmaltz 08-OCT-93 6.02 175 R
11 12 10 14 D Mathew Dumba 25-JUL-94 5.11 172 R
this is from the Prospects thread. i'm not a scout, so i would perceive that the combination of 3 different professional scouting services is a decent resource. Yakupov is the prize. Murray and Ebert seem like very good options. the next 8 prospects, i would lump together. some have their preferences, based on team need (Dumba, anyone?), but i really would not make a definitive statement on any of them being the obvious choice. Grigorenko is kind of a wildcard.
even if we do tank, there's no guarantee that the other teams that are close to us in points will surpass us. i'd just rather the 'kids' give 'er right till the end, and hope for the best.
# RLR FC ISS Pos Name DOB HT WT
1 1 1 2 F Nail Yakupov 06-OCT-93 5.11 180 L
2 3 2 3 D Ryan Murray 27-SEP-93 6.00 182 L
3 2 4 6 D Nick Ebert 11-MAY-94 6.00 195 R
4 6 6 5 D Jacob Trouba 26-FEB-94 6.01 183 R
5 11 5 1 F Mikhail Grigorenko 16-MAY-94 6.02 192 L
6 4 8 7 D Griffin Reinhart 24-JAN-94 6.04 202 L
7 7 3 9 F Alex Galchenyuk 12-FEB-94 6.00 185 L
8 10 7 12 D Morgan Rielly 09-MAR-94 6.00 190 L
9 18 9 4 F Filip Forsberg 13-AUG-94 6.01 176 R
10 14 13 8 D Jordan Schmaltz 08-OCT-93 6.02 175 R
11 12 10 14 D Mathew Dumba 25-JUL-94 5.11 172 R
this is from the Prospects thread. i'm not a scout, so i would perceive that the combination of 3 different professional scouting services is a decent resource. Yakupov is the prize. Murray and Ebert seem like very good options. the next 8 prospects, i would lump together. some have their preferences, based on team need (Dumba, anyone?), but i really would not make a definitive statement on any of them being the obvious choice. Grigorenko is kind of a wildcard.
even if we do tank, there's no guarantee that the other teams that are close to us in points will surpass us. i'd just rather the 'kids' give 'er right till the end, and hope for the best.
Didn't Ebert completely fall of the list? It's probably an old list from the beginning of the season. Shmaltz shouldn't be there either.
Well, I don't care about draft picks anymore. I just want to lord over my many Habs and Leafs friends that we finished higher than both their (much more expensive) teams and we are ascending whilst they are in decline. I can never root for my team to lose.
I've seen the Isles play well at the end of bad seasons and been disappointed, when it didn't carry over to next season.It happened last season.
Let them play competitively in these last 7 games,but let them lose and get that higher pick.
I think there's a lot more to carry over from this season to the next. You also don't want the team to be completely demoralized heading into the off-season. Fully healthy, I don't think last year's team was as bad as they were early last season or as good as they were semi-late. We weren't a team that was going to simply lose forever because there was still some talent and some care in the room. However, we were even more raw then.
I feel comfortable saying that the 2011-12 team is better overall than last year's squad just from watching them on the ice. Improved enough? Obviously not, but there is something there.
Islanders 2010-11 Season
We were 4-5-2 in October (4-5-2)
We were 1-7-3 in November. (5-12-5)
We were 6-7-1 in December. (11-19-6)
We were 4-8-1 in January. (15-27-7)
We were 8-5-1 in February. (23-32-8)
We were 7-4-4 in March. (30-36-12)
We were 0-3-1 in April. (30-39-13)
So March and April combined we were 7-7-5.
We were 3-6-1 in our last 10.
To me, that means we were "competitive" in March and April, but it's not like we finished the last 1/4 of the season on a run. If this team put together another "November 2010", who knows what it would have done to them for this season. While I can understand the team potentially "needing" a higher draft position, we can't ignore the potential negative effect of losing game after game to close out the season
The problem to me with last season was that we were "12 games under" at the end of January. I think there was more of an evening out effect than anything last season by the end of the year. We had a good run or two which had gone along with our multiple piss poor runs.
29-33-12 was the closest we got to the new ".500" last season.
That was on March 22, 2012. Instead of finishing strong, we actually finished how many would have hoped in terms of gaining draft position. To me, we had "nothing to lose" far earlier in the 2010-11 season. While we didn't exactly get over that hump and win those important games this season, we did generally improve.
This season:
We were 3-4-2 in October. (3-4-2)
We were 4-7-2 in November. (7-11-4)
We were 6-6-2 in December. (13-17-6)
We were 7-5-1 in January. (20-22-7)
We were 6-6-2 in February. (26-28-9)
We are 6-5-2 so far in March. (32-33-11)
Technically, our worst end of the month record was in November.
Like it or not, this year's team is better and has consistently shown so. While we have been somewhat treading water for the past few months, we still went further without drowning.
Short of an absolute miracle, our improvement won't get us into the playoffs. However, a winning record (even a ******** one) still matters for the guys on the squad to hold their head up high and have a good feeling heading into the off-season (while still having that bitter taste of not quite getting there.) Every day they survive is another day they don't see that "e" next to their team's name. I want them to taste how close they were. I want management and ownership to see it, too.
If the Islanders make it to the last 4 games of the season and they're still in the playoffs, and they did it while playing a very harsh March schedule, that matters to me. If it matters to me, I would bet that it matters to the players.
I want to see JT finish with a point per game. I want to see if any of our second liners can hit 20 goals. I want to see how high Moulson can get. I want to see Matt Martin set the record for hits and keep adding. If we manage to take two games from Pittsburgh when they're aiming for the #1 spot in the league, that isn't insignificant. That's also a team that we don't match up well against (which is also not insignificant.)
And if we fall short, and the odds say we will, then maybe we get lucky and win the lottery to jump into the top-5 this coming draft...
So yeah, I want us to finish above .500 and (failing a miracle during the season) win the lottery with a bit of luck after the season.
I think we all deserve to have our cake and eat it, too.
It doesn't matter how we finish the season, we're getting more of the same crap next season. If we finish strong, Garth and Chaz will hang their hats on the "strong finish" - that scares and frustrates me more than anything else.
If we get a top pick and don't blow it on Boston Bloodlust, Yakupov signals the end of the rebuild and a reason to sign top UFA's. If we nailed Yakupov, and Garth/Wang didn't work to build a contender from July 1 on, I'm pretty sure a fair and just God would just smote them both. We have to end this friggen joke of a rebuild ASAP for the survival of the franchise and the two decent to good looking defensemen (elite my eye - they could easily be Finley and Chynoweth redux the way they sound) aren't going to cut it. We need to be good next year, the third to last before the lease is up.
We have to look GOOOOOD. I don't endorse losing but losing games beats losing a franchise.
We need Nail or Grigorenko. The two exciting picks who can step in. I'd love a defensemen but we need the two best players. Murray if we pick three. (Dumba's size scares me)
It doesn't matter how we finish the season, we're getting more of the same crap next season. If we finish strong, Garth and Chaz will hang their hats on the "strong finish" - that scares and frustrates me more than anything else.
If we're going to depend too much on what we have here and place pressure on even more prospects in the future, then the results on the ice matter just as much as where and who we pick at the draft.
The last 6 games are still important for the current team's development. You don't want to demoralize the players we're over-depending on for next season.
Also, who is to say that Garth and Wang don't see it in the opposite way? Imagine the team finishes 2 points out of the playoffs. Does that not also tell them that they could have made it if they added? (Yeah, it's hard for me to even type that, but still.)
Besides, some other derivative of this team is going to be on the ice next season. It's probably not likely that we bring back every single expiring contract. Perhaps, against their better judgment, management and ownership will improve the mix of the team.
I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I give them the benefit of the doubt. However, one step forward for this season is still one step forward. Since all we appear to be taking is the incremental slow rebuild approach, then I still think we'll see one more step forward for next year.
On the Pittsburgh Penguins tanking time line, we're supposed to make the playoffs and lose in the 1st round next season. If we manage to keep the status quo or replace equal parts, I bet that's a likely scenario.
...if we actually attempt to improve our shortcomings, who the **** knows what will happen? It would be nice to find out...
,
Mitch
Last edited by mitchy22: 03-29-2012 at 01:08 AM.
Reason: fixing late night brain farts
Funny, the same people here who are saying finish off strong will be the same group who will ***** and complain when we don't get Murray or Dumba and still have a glaring whole in our top 4.
If we're going to depend too much on what we have here and place pressure on even more prospects in the future, then the results on the ice matter just as much as where and who we pick at the draft.
The last 6 games are still important for the current team's development. You don't want to demoralize the players we're over-depending on for next season.
Also, who is to say that Garth and Wang don't see it in the opposite way? Imagine the team finishes 2 points out of the playoffs. Does that not also tell them that they could have made it if they added? (Yeah, it's hard for me to even type that, but still.)
Besides, some other derivative of this team is going to be on the ice next season. It's probably not likely that we bring back every single expiring contract. Perhaps, against their better judgment, management and ownership will improve the mix of the team.
I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I give them the benefit of the doubt. However, one step forward for this season is still one step forward. Since all we appear to be taking is the incremental slow rebuild approach, then I still think we'll see one more step forward for next year.
On the Pittsburgh Penguins tanking time line, we're supposed to make the playoffs and lose in the 1st round next season. If we manage to keep the status quo or replace equal parts, I bet that's a likely scenario.
...if we actually attempt to improve our shortcomings, who the **** knows what will happen? It would be nice to find out...
,
Mitch
Momentum most certainly does not carry from the finish of one season to the beginning of the next. The strong finish from last year meant nothing.
We need Nail or Grigorenko. The two exciting picks who can step in. I'd love a defensemen but we need the two best players. Murray if we pick three. (Dumba's size scares me)
We can't finish with the worst record. It isn't likely that we're going to finish with the second worst record.
If the miracle (almost literally) of a playoff berth doesn't happen, then let the boys finish 6th and hope the NYI win the lottery. It's probably just as likely as us finishing 2nd to last. We're 4 points ahead of Edmonton and have an extra game to play with only 6 games left.
I could understand why some would have an argument for "not winning too many so we pick 3-5," or, "not putting up far too many points and picking 10th," but that's about it at this point. I disagree with it, but I can understand it. (I just can never hope for the team to lose. The pick is the consolation prize at the end of the season, not what you hope for during it.) Also, it's easy for everyone to sit here and say how "picking so-and-so is good for the team." However, that's easily seen. How losing to get that pick affects the current lineup, that is not easily seen. (Nod to Bastiat.)
I want to see some players hit personal goals. I want to see the team leave it all out on the ice.
If I'm going to "hope" for anything right now, it's still the miracle playoff berth. After that, I'm "hoping" the team finishes with a winning record for the positive effect that should have on the important players in our lineup and the personal goals they may reach in that time.
I'll "hope" that Garth and Wang will see the failure of missing the playoffs this season falls on them (assuming that they would ever care to add). If they'll never add, and it is a "draft only" rebuild, then it's just as important that the players here develop as anything else. It's a mistake to shave off the last 6 games of the season like they don't matter for the guys who are still playing. It's a mistake to ignore that potential negative. It's a mistake to ignore the potential positives still available in the final 6 games.
If we're going to depend too much on what we have here and place pressure on even more prospects in the future, then the results on the ice matter just as much as where and who we pick at the draft.
The last 6 games are still important for the current team's development. You don't want to demoralize the players we're over-depending on for next season.
Also, who is to say that Garth and Wang don't see it in the opposite way? Imagine the team finishes 2 points out of the playoffs. Does that not also tell them that they could have made it if they added? (Yeah, it's hard for me to even type that, but still.)
Besides, some other derivative of this team is going to be on the ice next season. It's probably not likely that we bring back every single expiring contract. Perhaps, against their better judgment, management and ownership will improve the mix of the team.
I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I give them the benefit of the doubt. However, one step forward for this season is still one step forward. Since all we appear to be taking is the incremental slow rebuild approach, then I still think we'll see one more step forward for next year.
On the Pittsburgh Penguins tanking time line, we're supposed to make the playoffs and lose in the 1st round next season. If we manage to keep the status quo or replace equal parts, I bet that's a likely scenario.
...if we actually attempt to improve our shortcomings, who the **** knows what will happen? It would be nice to find out...
,
Mitch
We're on the Atlanta Thrasher timeline, though. One star, a bunch of maybe's and no/little management help (I won't ignore Moulson and Streit additions). TWO stars......that helps.
We can't finish with the worst record. It isn't likely that we're going to finish with the second worst record.
If the miracle (almost literally) of a playoff berth doesn't happen, then let the boys finish 6th and hope the NYI win the lottery. It's probably just as likely as us finishing 2nd to last. We're 4 points ahead of Edmonton and have an extra game to play with only 6 games left.
I could understand why some would have an argument for "not winning too many so we pick 3-5," or, "not putting up far too many points and picking 10th," but that's about it at this point. I disagree with it, but I can understand it. (I just can never hope for the team to lose. The pick is the consolation prize at the end of the season, not what you hope for during it.) Also, it's easy for everyone to sit here and say how "picking so-and-so is good for the team." However, that's easily seen. How losing to get that pick affects the current lineup, that is not easily seen. (Nod to Bastiat.)
I want to see some players hit personal goals. I want to see the team leave it all out on the ice.
If I'm going to "hope" for anything right now, it's still the miracle playoff berth. After that, I'm "hoping" the team finishes with a winning record for the positive effect that should have on the important players in our lineup and the personal goals they may reach in that time.
I'll "hope" that Garth and Wang will see the failure of missing the playoffs this season falls on them (assuming that they would ever care to add). If they'll never add, and it is a "draft only" rebuild, then it's just as important that the players here develop as anything else. It's a mistake to shave off the last 6 games of the season like they don't matter for the guys who are still playing. It's a mistake to ignore that potential negative. It's a mistake to ignore the potential positives still available in the final 6 games.
,
Mitch
I just don't want to finish 5th or 6th worst. I want a shot at the lotto gold (Yak) and to not, as another poster put it, do a Jagr miss of Niedermayer miss. If we don't win the lotto, I'm happy so long as the kid isn't a Red Sox fan. But it's nice to think if we sucked this much this year this long, we have a chance at forcing Snow to make a potential Tavares - Yak/Grigorenko lineup stronger.
But then again, we might just have a GM who thinks Graheme can replace Montoya for all we know.....or who will give Eaton an extension.
No matter how hard I try, I cannot endorse tanking. The higher draft picks are shiny and beautiful, but one lottery pick is not going to solve the problems with this team.
The losing culture needs to change.
Sure it needs to change. but whether they win 35 games and finish above 500, it's still a losing season. any time you don't make the playoffs in a league where over half the teams make it, it's a bad year.
I really don't think there's anything to be gained by these players by winning their remaining games. not that i'm rooting for them to lose, but I stopped getting upset at losses over a month ago. they are what they are.
