Every team that misses the playoffs is in the lottery. Just want to make sure that's clear. (Not that you don't understand that.) We could finish 6th worst and still jump to 2nd. It still would be a possibility.
I should have written "dropping out of the top 5 in the lottery".
Wanted to emphasize a spot with a 'legitimate' chance of moving up.
However, I did not know you could drop from 6th to 2nd. I thought an option like that was truly only in the top 5.
Was Jersey really 8th going into the lottery last April??? Thought they were 5th...
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Josh Bailey had a 5 point night. Kyle Okposo hit 20 goals. What do those things mean to those players and their confidence heading into next season? What does it make them feel when it comes time to train?
I love it statwise, but I'm a statguy.
But what will prevent them from starting next season like they did this season? Bailey ended last season much better than he began it.
I went into this season thinking they'd feed off of the momentum of last year and our young guys would be ready to win. Are we to believe the failure to begin this season was just an unexpected blip on the screen?
Or was it Snow's inability to add the right reinforcements to continual furthering the momentum of last season? If so, why should we believe it'll be any different this summer?
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Also, don't some of you know from competitive sports what it feels like to lose? Losing sucks. Losing a big game and coming back stronger is one thing. Losing so much as a team that you feel like your team will never win anything no matter what you do is something else entirely.
Then again, there are plenty who are most happy about getting their paycheck, winning and losing be damned.
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I completely understand people hoping the teams around us keep pace in order to keep our positioning high. I don't understand anyone who cheers a loss because they're not thinking about what negative effects losing has on the very important players who are already on the squad. It also requires one to equally ignore what positives the players on the squad may get out of winning. Not in the simplistic way of winning begets winning (which is really often does), but in that individual members of the team gain positives from winning hockey games.
The players on the ice should play to win - and they do. They have to if for nothing else than honoring the ticket-buying customers' financial contribution.
There's no reason for them to think about draft position. If they think the team needs to be better, then they expect the GM to go out and get some better players.
That's his job, regardless of draft position.
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During the season people *****ed at Bailey about his confidence. I always argued that he never had two legitimate linemates for any length of the time, but not scoring for a long period does bring an offensive player down. It's important that a player like Bailey "feels like he can score", same for Okposo and a lot of our players not named John Tavares who is one of the few who "knows he can score."
Especially for Bailey. He was doing a lot of things fairly well without getting results.
I really like the latest line and I think the team is learning that Bailey on the wing with two other guys who can play means a lot more points.
Lets just hope this is something the team can build on long-term.
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We're still getting a very good pick in this draft. It just may be a player that needs more time to develop and won't help immediately. The less help we gain immediately, the better we'll be drafting next season. However, the internal improvement of our current squad is more important than who we pick in any given draft. We have many players on this squad that are going to be here for the next few years. Do not neglect what losing or not performing does to them. Do not neglect what it means to them to have a "winning" record.
Agree that we're getting a good player. Could it be a star player? The names Yakupov, Grigorenko, Murray, Dumba and Galchenyuk are currently offering more promise of stardom, but maybe things look a lot different at the conclusion of the CHL playoffs and U18.
I don't however think what happens now will have much of an affect on how the team starts next season, much less than beyond that. It can, but it hasn't to date.
Lots of teams have looked to build on the development and continuity created at the end of a season, just to see it mean nothing once the next season was up and running.
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I want them to feel like they "just missed it" instead of feeling like they're one of the 5 worst teams in the league. It matters, whether some believe me or not.
It could. And that would be the case one way or the other if they continue winning everything.
Question is, will that feeling be worth picking say 13th as opposed to say 7th?
At least we have a scouting staff that has done some pretty good work in recent years.
Has anyone accused the Islanders of tanking the last five seasons or so? I didn't think so. Now, given that we have not tanked any of the recent seasons and no one is suggesting the players will tank this season, how many of the top free agents have wanted to sign with us? Answer=none. They want to play with good teams...teams with talent. Before you suggest they want to play with winning teams, you are correct, but those teams have talent. Now, we can debate how you get there, but few would argue that talent wins. OK, so how do you get talent? You can sign it (we have not been able to do so), you can trade for it (see previous answer), or you can draft and develop it. No matter how many guys point to Datsyuk and guys like him who were drafted late or others like Richards or Parise who were drafted in the middle of the first or later, the higher you draft, the MORE LIKELY you are to draft a stud. We need studs. End of story.
Um...yeah, go look at the trade board or prospect board.
I should have written "dropping out of the top 5 in the lottery".
Wanted to emphasize a spot with a 'legitimate' chance of moving up.
However, I did not know you could drop from 6th to 2nd. I thought an option like that was truly only in the top 5.
Was Jersey really 8th going into the lottery last April??? Thought they were 5th....
Yes they finish 8th and jumped 4 spots pushing us to 5th. Any team that wins the lottery can move a max 4 spots. Hence only team in the top 5 of the draft can get to the 1st overall. 5th moveing four spots to 1st, 15 to 11, etc.
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt
I love it statwise, but I'm a statguy.
But what will prevent them from starting next season like they did this season? Bailey ended last season much better than he began it.
I went into this season thinking they'd feed off of the momentum of last year and our young guys would be ready to win. Are we to believe the failure to begin this season was just an unexpected blip on the screen?
Or was it Snow's inability to add the right reinforcements to continual furthering the momentum of last season? If so, why should we believe it'll be any different this summer?
The team finished last season terribly, the last 5 games they played like a team beaten because like us they had seen themselves playing meaningless games.
This is an incredibly youung and fragile team. They need all the emotional ups they can get. Would you rather have an Okposo who is doubting that he can be effective at this level or knowing that he just scored 20g this season. Same for Bailey, do you doubt that he looks around the internet and sports groups and see what they say about him? He finishing incredibly strong shows us and them that he has what it takes. Would you rather have Nino think about his one goal this season or continue to watch he teammates suceed and try to be next?
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt
Then again, there are plenty who are most happy about getting their paycheck, winning and losing be damned.
Hasnt Garth tried to ride the team of them? IE, Comeau, Rolston, etc. In these past two games how many players did work the past two games vs the Pens?
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt
The players on the ice should play to win - and they do. They have to if for nothing else than honoring the ticket-buying customers' financial contribution.
There's no reason for them to think about draft position. If they think the team needs to be better, then they expect the GM to go out and get some better players.
That's his job, regardless of draft position.
Agreed
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt
Especially for Bailey. He was doing a lot of things fairly well without getting results.
I really like the latest line and I think the team is learning that Bailey on the wing with two other guys who can play means a lot more points.
Lets just hope this is something the team can build on long-term.
ANd for him to finally have tangable success is sometg\hing that will help him continue to push to be better and set example for his teammates to keep pushing. IE Developing. Dont you think if Nino scores a couple goals here at the end he will have something positive to take from this season pushing him to work harder intead imploading into self doubt
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt
Agree that we're getting a good player. Could it be a star player? The names Yakupov, Grigorenko, Murray, Dumba and Galchenyuk are currently offering more promise of stardom, but maybe things look a lot different at the conclusion of the CHL playoffs and U18.
I don't however think what happens now will have much of an affect on how the team starts next season, much less than beyond that. It can, but it hasn't to date.
Lots of teams have looked to build on the development and continuity created at the end of a season, just to see it mean nothing once the next season was up and running.
No matter who we choose, we will get a prospect whom will not impact this team for 2 or 3 years (even John Tavares took to the 3rd season before really makeing a major impact at this level, we was good before but now is an impact player). So taking a longer term project over someone that may not take as long isnt a reason to through out what could be a couple developmental games for our young team.
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt
Question is, will that feeling be worth picking say 13th as opposed to say 7th?
At least we have a scouting staff that has done some pretty good work in recent years.
We will never know, but id rather try to move forward with what weve got then trash our current players for future ones.
I would not be upset if we lost every game and made the top four again.
I got to see Cindy lose two embarrassing games. Philly is creeping up on them.
In the grand scheme of things, if we draft sixth or seventh and still get a smart skilled player like Forsberg or Dumba, swell. The only thing left if we can't nail Yakupov is for us to rely on our GM.
That means this summer, Snow has to grow up and do his job as the clock is ticking on this team.
You say the games are meaningless. I'm stressing that they're not. I've suggested the reasons why throughout this thread. You simply stating that they're meaningless does not make them so.
Semantics. Everything has meaning if you choose to argue for it, even doing nothing can be argued as meaningful somehow. My view is more a matter of relativity. Relative to the events I outlined such as building a good support structure with good vets, doing well in the standings is quite small in comparison. I would argue if you want to see a good season then the guy in the owner's suite needs to make the commitment to it to happen. A few wins at the end of the year when so much of the year was left in ruins is like polishing the tires on a car totaled in a head on collision with a bullet train. I don't really debate you for a reason Mitch on this because every positive is a positive, wining included. I care about the larger picture. 2nd draft position is better for the club, big picture, than a couple of late minute games when the fat lady has already sung. If you want me to flesh that out more, how should I? It is exactly that simple. Yak for 12 years helps more than a game they forget in 24 hrs particularly when we are staring at a probably-worse team next year when we don't just downgrade from the three ufas on defense, we plummet from them.
As for Bailey and his 5 point night, I think it was Carrol or Lane who recorded a three goal game once. It happens. His effort has been a positive even without the points one night which is what I am looking to when it comes to him. Regardless of our record these guys will improve., incrementally, which is a point you yourself hammer home. The record or the final ten games the season before having little to nothing to do with it. Instead maybe you could call them a bell weather, but it is a sign, not a cure.
You want change and improvement like we all do. It will have everything to do with June, July & August. That's my point. I get yours, do you get mine?
Last edited by A Pointed Stick: 03-30-2012 at 10:36 PM.
Um...yeah, go look at the trade board or prospect board.
Hmmm, am I understanding you correctly that you are citing general hockey fans on the general trade board or the general prospect board...Leafs fans, Rags fans, Habs fans, Canucks fans, Kings fans, etc...when saying that this team tanked?!?! You are basing your position on OTHERS opinions?!?! I have been following the Islanders for a very long time and I don't recall the Islanders ever being accused of tanking. With that said, yes, the Islanders don't proactively bring onboard the greatest talent. That is a fact. However, I don't think that equates to tanking. To me, tanking is a team basically giving up when it has no hope to really achieve anything (e.g., see the Pens in the 80s to get Lemieux). You are going to base your position on the opinions of guys who don't follow this team on a regular basis LIKE REAL ISLANDERS' FANS MIGHT?!?! I have NEVER read a post where an Islander fan on this board felt that this team was tanking. I strongly feel as though we could have ended up with a higher pick in several years had we not finished as strongly as we did. Yet, we ended up where we did and I don't believe it was because of tanking. This season is actually typical. We tend to win games when the season is over and usually finish a bit higher than we have been all season long. Show me which season this team tanked...lost a lot of games at the end...after we were higher in the standings...to end up with a much higher pick (not talking about dropping or raising a position or two).
Semantics. Everything has meaning if you choose to argue for it, even doing nothing can be argued as meaningful somehow. My view is more a matter of relativity. Relative to the events I outlined such as building a good support structure with good vets, doing well in the standings is quite small in comparison. I would argue if you want to see a good season then the guy in the owner's suite needs to make the commitment to it to happen. A few wins at the end of the year when so much of the year was left in ruin is like polishing the tires on a car totaled in a head on collision with a bullet train. I don't really debate you for a reason Mitch on this Mitch because every positive is a positive, wining included. I care about the larger picture. 2nd draft position is better for the club, big picture, than a couple of late minute games when the fat lady has already sung. If you want me to flesh that out more, how should I? It is exactly that simple. Yak for 12 years helps more than a game they forget in 24 hrs particularly when we are staring at a worse probable team next year when we don't just downgrade from the three ufas on defense, to something worse (ugh).
As for Bailey and his 5 point night, I think it was Carrol or Lane who recorded a three goal game once. It happens. His effort has been a positive even without the points one night. I will have more time to discuss later as I have to cut, so sorry for breaking off early in mid post.
You don't hold some kind of exclusivity over wanting to bring in support for the current members of this club. It's not like either of us have been shy about the hope for improving the club in that area. We disagree about some players, but generally speaking we're both for adding to the current lineup from outside of it. There's no reason to confuse the subject here.
The positives and negatives I'm talking about in this thread are actually amplified if the status quo is kept. Unfortunately, it's far too easy to focus on what is obvious (high draft position) than it is to think about what is hidden from view (effects on players from winning and losing hockey games over a period of time.) It's not semantics, but using the term "meaningless" on a broad swath of games is potentially rhetorical in nature.
How many games do you think we would have needed to lose in order to get a not quite 50% chance at Nail? What effect do those losses have on the players that are here? This team wasn't bad enough to unseat Columbus of having the only chance at picking either #1 or #2. In order to be that bad, the players on this team would had to have played even worse, correct? (Potentially, the team would actually had to have been a worse team, as well.)
So we're arguing over a greater chance to pick at #1 or #2? That's what's important to the folks here. That outweighs the effects that winning or losing might have on the important young players already in the lineup to many here. The effects of them producing or not producing is also outweighed by the chance to select the top player in the draft.
Is this team not better than last year? They've been more consistent. I think Josh Bailey is a better player. John Tavares definitely is. JT's linemates are having career years. Hamonic has become so steady that it's been amazing to watch him. Streit started off the season like garbage, but he actually looks more like his old self of late. AMac has been adding more offense in the latter half of the season. Even though his whole line sucked for the first part of the season, KO still hit 20 goals.
Why are so many people so sure that this production can easily be addressed by saying the games are "meaningless", even though the team is not mathematically eliminated. (Edit - Buffalo lost tonight. We're still in it.)
Has anyone ever thought that the slow start to the current season had something to do with the poor end of last season? We really didn't end the last season on a high note. (Feel free to go back in this thread to see what I've already discussed regarding this.) What about the 3-goalie problem we've dealt with? How is it that some are so sure that we aren't seeing a legitimate 2nd line that actually includes 3 of our top forwards that aren't playing on the 1st line playing together developing? What if those players finish the rest of the season strong? Is that not a positive for them heading into the off-season? Yes, the potential negative is that our current management uses that as an excuse not to add players... However, who really can sit there and say that's definitely going to happen either way?
Since I doubt there are many who have read my every post in this thread, I'll simplify the points I've been making here:
1.) Winning or losing matters. Every game matters. For young players, every game matters even more towards their development. Our team is filled with young players. Get the overall picture?
2.) With so many of our current players considered to be part of the core, it's imperative that they taste some success before they think the team will never win. Find ways to win games late instead of lose them. If it happens at the very end of the season, it still happens. One might say that there is "less pressure" on us, but that often ignores that the other teams so far are still trying to win the games and may be applying more pressure from their end of the ice.
3.) 10 games at the end of the season are still important towards development. Ignoring that we're still mathematically in contention is easy to do, but it still matters that the team didn't give up early.
4.) Too many are ignoring the potential positive and negative effects that winning/producing and losing/not producing have on the players of this hockey team. The argument is that simple. The counterargument that has often been brought about in this thread is for a "better chance at drafting a top-1, -2, or -3 player."
You're arguing for an easily quantifiable chance at a better pick. Yes, it's not complicated to see. Yes, you should understand that I realize that idea in all of its simplicity.
I'm (not as) simply saying that in order to improve that quantifiable chance of drafting higher, you have to lose hockey games. I'm saying that losing hockey games can easily have a negative effect on young players. I'm saying that winning hockey games and improving production can easily have a positive effect on young players. I'm saying that we ended last season poorly and it's not the same as this season. I'm saying that this team was never as bad as it was last year. We're improved. Believe it or not, we're improved. I want the players on this team to believe it and be hungry for something more.
Sucking your way to another top draft pick, isn't the way to do that.
Yes, you get the shiny pick. It comes at a cost. Just because that cost isn't as easily quantifiable as where we pick in the draft, it doesn't mean the cost is nonexistent.
I'm arguing that "improving our chance at a higher pick" in the past few games isn't worth "the chance of improving our players on the ice and the reduction of the chance of their regression."
The end. Agree or disagree, but at least accept the last few things I've said as being the case if you want me to take you seriously. Final Edit - I'm not saying people have to agree with me that what I'm saying is more important. I just want people to accept that there is a negative, or potentially negative, aspect to not winning hockey games even late in the season. I want people to understand that you have to weigh the effects (positive and negative) that these games have on the players that are here versus improving our draft status.
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Mitch
Last edited by mitchy22: 03-31-2012 at 02:40 AM.
Reason: a late night edit of there to their...why? because I care
You don't hold some kind of exclusivity over wanting to bring in support for the current members of this club. It's not like either of us have been shy about the hope for improving the club in that area. We disagree about some players, but generally speaking we're both for adding to the current lineup from outside of it. There's no reason to confuse the subject here.
I'm not trying to confuse, Mitch, just clarifying. And it is almost funny that we argue when we agree about just about everything.
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What if those players finish the rest of the season strong? Is that not a positive for them heading into the off-season? Yes, the potential negative is that our current management uses that as an excuse not to add players... However, who really can sit there and say that's definitely going to happen either way?
It is a real concern, but my first guess is that the record has nothing to do with what Wang spends right now. It will set up a convenient excuse for him not to spend, but if we lost every game the rest of this season, IMO, he would still have Garth spending to the floor and simply using a different set of reasons to tell Staple & company why they are starving the team of real help.
On your points yes I agree with them. If you look back I actually state I can't disagree with them, and I think I do it several times. I was shifting the onus on to what I see as a bigger problem, wins or losses having little to do with it.
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The end. Agree or disagree, but at least accept the last few things I've said as being the case if you want me to take you seriously. Final Edit - I'm not saying people have to agree with me that what I'm saying is more important. I just want people to accept that there is a negative, or potentially negative, aspect to not winning hockey games even late in the season. I want people to understand that you have to weigh the effects (positive and negative) that these games have on the players that are here versus improving our draft status.
I'm not trying to confuse, Mitch, just clarifying. And it is almost funny that we argue when we agree about just about everything.
It is a real concern, but my first guess is that the record has nothing to do with what Wang spends right now. It will set up a convenient excuse for him not to spend, but if we lost every game the rest of this season, IMO, he would still have Garth spending to the floor and simply using a different set of reasons to tell Staple & company why they are starving the team of real help.
On your points yes I agree with them. If you look back I actually state I can't disagree with them, and I think I do it several times. I was shifting the onus on to what I see as a bigger problem, wins or losses having little to do with it.
Just lol. A friendly lol though.
You called the last games of the season meaningless. I'd have to say that's disagreeing with me.
All joking aside, I only mean "serious" for here. If someone can't at least consider the other side of an argument, their view doesn't really require careful consideration for me. It's pretty simple.
Neither side can definitively say they're correct with any kind of certainty in this argument. I'll say the games matter and I've presented the reasons why. Others will mention draft position. One is more easily quantified than the other and will most likely win out among many. That's fine, and in the end it may be the correct position, but how we arrive at that position should matter.
We've now been mathematically eliminated. We lost to a team that is practically our antithesis. It's against teams like this that we're weak against. Big, strong teams that can skate and have a generally high skill level. We have skill, but physically we're not remotely close to competing with a team like this in the long run.
Look at the interview that John Tavares just gave. Tell me it doesn't sting to him. It's his 3rd season. It's the 3rd time he's felt that sting. I'm not worried about him trying to overcome it. I'm worried about the other players on the team doing so. If they feel like it's hopeless, then that can be a serious detrimental factor in their development. That's why losing can beget more losing. That's the fire we've been playing with. Winning some games at the end here matters. You don't want players going out on a completely down note. There can be positives if players themselves finish strong.
Just watch or listen to the interviews after this game. KO sounded the same way. I didn't listen to Cappy, but I was a bit pissed at the smile on his face even if there was a funny joke thrown at him prior to his post-game interview. Compare that to the dejected look of the two players I saw...
theyre gonna get a good pick anyways, and the choices in their area are pretty damned good. id like dumba or forsberg, but would honestly be happy with whoever. so win the rest, lose the rest, whatever the ****. im more concerned who will be coaching the team next year because it better not be senor flintstone.
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