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Enough is enough, give Kostitsyn more ice time!

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Old
11-22-2004, 03:20 PM
  #26
Leaf Army
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He can't be doing that bad for icetime since he was -4 last night.

Seriously though be patient. The kid's only 19 years old. He'll be fine and in the long run it's probably better off that they're breaking him in slowly.

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11-22-2004, 03:26 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
He can't be doing that bad for icetime since he was -4 last night.

Seriously though be patient. The kid's only 19 years old. He'll be fine and in the long run it's probably better off that they're breaking him in slowly.
Finally...............a usefull coment by a leaf fan

What a year of no hockey can do to a fan

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11-22-2004, 03:37 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan_Latulippe
Like you said, you cant score if you dont have the puck....so why dumping it? You are giving it away, thus allowing the opposing team a chance to score....No? The players that we have in Hamilton are not puck dumpers, so lets go with their strenght....Kats, Higgins, Thinel, Pleks, Locke etc... are all able to carry the puck. So the coach should adapt to the players and not the other way aroung. OF course if you are coaching a talentless bunch of players, dumping will allow you to win 2-0, 3-2 etc.... But right now, man we are rich in talent.

Other Question: If the guy is dumping the puck we are givinh him more icetime? It should be the other way around, you create offense, generate opportunities, then you have more ice time. Dont give icetime for puck dumpers.
Stephane,dumping the puck is a tactic, one that you don't like. If a team won't give you the blue line, dumping the puck in, strategically, and then forechecking, hopefully with 2 men becomes a viable option.This generates more chances than 1 guy trying to beat 3. Labelling a guy because his line forechecks more than tries one on one play is unfair. If a play isn't there, you take the option that is. Stephane it's cyclical, if you make a team respect your forecheck, you gain the line easier then you can make the plays you want to see.

I'll agree that there are some players in the league that really don't want the puck in open ice or only want it at the end of the play. Sundstrom's an example of a guy who just doesn't want it, while Dags is an example who you only want to have it in a shooting position. There aren't that many in Mtl. unwilling to make a play, in fact the problem is the lack of a physical forecheck, imo.

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11-22-2004, 03:46 PM
  #29
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Chris Higgins has 6 points in 18 games this year. In other words, I'm not too worried about AK.

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11-22-2004, 05:41 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatone
When Perezhogin first came here , He was already a little disciplined in the def zone.I read xomewhere that A russian coach leraned him how to play a great two way game.He has been more advantaged by getting a lot of icetime in the first half and in the second half of the season.He was getting first line pp icetime.Kost don't what's a defensive game.He isn't playing alot but He has to atleast learn how to play an decent def game before getting icetime.Jarvis will put him in the first line when Kost will impress him enough (talking about his defensive game).


Actually it was a Czech coach and former Pens coach the late Ivan Hilinka, who played a tight defensive system with Omsk, and helped Perezhogin to develop his 2 way game. His skating and speed help him a lot in this area. When he was 17, and playing in the Russian junior league, he racked up the goals (47) but was considered a project based on his size and having never played outside the Russian system, it was unknown what kind of success he would have in North America.

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Old
11-22-2004, 05:50 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal
Actually it was a Czech coach and former Pens coach the late Ivan Hilinka, who played a tight defensive system with Omsk, and helped Perezhogin to develop his 2 way game. His skating and speed help him a lot in this area. When he was 17, and playing in the Russian junior league, he racked up the goals (47) but was considered a project based on his size and having never played outside the Russian system, it was unknown what kind of success he would have in North America.
Thx for the info.So , would you agree with me if I would say Perezhogin had already an advantage while coming to N.A ???

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11-22-2004, 05:59 PM
  #32
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AND THIS IS THE PLAYER that Savard and Timmin's said was NHL ready
They must have meant a different NHL.

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11-22-2004, 06:08 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan
AND THIS IS THE PLAYER that Savard and Timmin's said was NHL ready
They must have meant a different NHL.
You're starting to be annoyiing.They didn't say He was NHL ready , They said that his arsenals of shots was already NHL caliber !!!!

Plz , stop trolling.


Last edited by CH Wizard: 11-22-2004 at 06:19 PM.
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Old
11-22-2004, 06:46 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
Stephane,dumping the puck is a tactic, one that you don't like. If a team won't give you the blue line, dumping the puck in, strategically, and then forechecking, hopefully with 2 men becomes a viable option.This generates more chances than 1 guy trying to beat 3.
IF like you said IF a team wont give you the blue line.....It seems to me that's the only tactic they are practicing. A team will give the blue line quite often, so why are we dumping it!!!!

You mean to tell me that Kats, Higgins and Pleks cant enter the zone without dumping it???????

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11-22-2004, 07:10 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatone
Thx for the info.So , would you agree with me if I would say Perezhogin had already an advantage while coming to N.A ???

No doubt he was much better in his own end, as Kostitsyn seems lost. Perezhogin was raised in the hockey schools of Kazakhstan, and back in '98 he made the move to go play in the Avanguard system with his coach from Kazakhstan. He had about 5-6 years of playing in a top notch hockey program. Kostitsyn was playing in the EEHL, up until 2+ years ago. (signed with CSKA summer of '02) I can't say I know much about the Belarus league, but it was at 17-18 when he finally entered the former Red Army teams program, and while he did struggle in the Super league, he excelled in the junior league and from reports did well in the Upper league.

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Old
11-22-2004, 07:29 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal
No doubt he was much better in his own end, as Kostitsyn seems lost. Perezhogin was raised in the hockey schools of Kazakhstan, and back in '98 he made the move to go play in the Avanguard system with his coach from Kazakhstan. He had about 5-6 years of playing in a top notch hockey program. Kostitsyn was playing in the EEHL, up until 2+ years ago. (signed with CSKA summer of '02) I can't say I know much about the Belarus league, but it was at 17-18 when he finally entered the former Red Army teams program, and while he did struggle in the Super league, he excelled in the junior league and from reports did well in the Upper league.
I saw some bulldogs games last year.Perezhogin looked very mature defensively and because of that it was more easy for to go to the net.Kost as like you said seems to be lost on his own end.He has to get better defensively even if He isn't able to produce.We all know He has offensive skills sometimes a better defensive game will help you to practice more your offensive skills.I mean you'll be able to go in front of the net while interceptin passes , checking others players to get the puck.He needs time for sure !

As like the old expression says :

BEST DEFENCE = BEST OFFENCE !!!

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11-22-2004, 07:35 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan
AND THIS IS THE PLAYER that Savard and Timmin's said was NHL ready
They must have meant a different NHL.
You must be the kind of guy that didn't even saw him play and just look at his numbers.

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11-22-2004, 08:09 PM
  #38
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Boy looks like I sparked up a good one. Seems like there's some good points both ways.

What gets me upset the most is that the Bulldogs aren't playing well, and they aren't scoring. Why not give the young guy a chance. A chance to prove his talent and to raise his confidence. The team is going nowhere fast, give him a shot with Plekanec and Ward for a few games and see what the kid's got. We're a quarter of the way into the season and he hasn't gotten a decent chance.

I'm sure though that BG has or is going to "strongly suggest" that Jarvis play him a bit more....sooner rather than later.

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11-22-2004, 09:04 PM
  #39
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People for get that Kost was rated as

-One of the most talented if not the most talented of his draft year.
-That his intensity along with his talent is what they loved, he always wanted the puck and would do anything to get it


I haven't seen him play... but I'll say that if he's not doing the latter so much is probably because of ice time, linemates, the coach metaling crap into his head, and the language barrier... change the coach, give him more ice time, and more time to break the language barrier and he'll do better

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11-22-2004, 09:06 PM
  #40
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I hear what you're saying Cosanostra, but it still gets back to earning it. Gainey is a proponent of a player paying his dues and learning the system before being given first-line minutes, so is Jarvis. They grew up in the Scotty Bowman/Habs system.

Keep in mind that we're speaking of the system that kept Guy Lafleur off the top two lines for three seasons until he turned 24, the system that kept Pierre Larouche, a 50-goal scorer at 19 years of age, in the press box for much of his first two seasons with the Habs as a 23-24-year-old.

Kosty was -4 in his last game; it doesn't sound like he's earned a spot on the first line anytime soon. He obviously played at least four shifts...perhaps he should have only played one or two, LOL.

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11-22-2004, 09:32 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan_Latulippe
IF like you said IF a team wont give you the blue line.....It seems to me that's the only tactic they are practicing. A team will give the blue line quite often, so why are we dumping it!!!!

You mean to tell me that Kats, Higgins and Pleks cant enter the zone without dumping it???????
who's only dumping the puck ? Without having #'s to back me up, I'd guess Mtl. scores a higher % off the rush than a lot of teams. Koivu's and Rib's lines play on the rush well . When they call the Habs defense first, they usually mean forechecking 1 man,a strategy I wish they,d vary more.

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11-22-2004, 10:22 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle
I hear what you're saying Cosanostra, but it still gets back to earning it. Gainey is a proponent of a player paying his dues and learning the system before being given first-line minutes, so is Jarvis. They grew up in the Scotty Bowman/Habs system.

Keep in mind that we're speaking of the system that kept Guy Lafleur off the top two lines for three seasons until he turned 24, the system that kept Pierre Larouche, a 50-goal scorer at 19 years of age, in the press box for much of his first two seasons with the Habs as a 23-24-year-old.

Kosty was -4 in his last game; it doesn't sound like he's earned a spot on the first line anytime soon. He obviously played at least four shifts...perhaps he should have only played one or two, LOL.
Would that be the same system that has seen the Dogs lose the last 8 games ?

For every Lafleur exemple you bring up I can bring you a Modano, Yzerman or Sakic one. Guys who learned to play offensively before they learned to play defensively.

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Old
11-23-2004, 07:06 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
who's only dumping the puck ? Without having #'s to back me up, I'd guess Mtl. scores a higher % off the rush than a lot of teams. Koivu's and Rib's lines play on the rush well . When they call the Habs defense first, they usually mean forechecking 1 man,a strategy I wish they,d vary more.
Voila. Why not go with the strenght of the kids. The Dogs are not scoring goals. Why? Someone said in another thread I think, that the players are so afraid to make a mistake that they dont even go in the zone to get the puck anymore. What's that? What do we need in Montreal? Goal scorers or puck dumpers? What I mean by puck dumpers, is players that can play on the 3rd-4th lines and can't score to save their lives.

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11-23-2004, 07:27 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan_Latulippe
Voila. Why not go with the strenght of the kids. The Dogs are not scoring goals. Why? Someone said in another thread I think, that the players are so afraid to make a mistake that they dont even go in the zone to get the puck anymore. What's that? What do we need in Montreal? Goal scorers or puck dumpers? What I mean by puck dumpers, is players that can play on the 3rd-4th lines and can't score to save their lives.
You know, as much as we've gone round and round on the same issue, we're not really in disagreement. I think we disagree on how certain players are classified but that's about it. You see the value of Dags despite his shortcomings and I see the value of Bullis despite... It depends on the individual team needs I guess. Teams need all types and a lot of varied contribution to win. The Risebrough's and Tremblay's contributed to the 70's Habs success too. Stefan, I honestly don't know what's going on in Hamilton. If the players aren't playing to their strengths then iit should be addressed. I still suspect that being young, esp. on defense, their game is breaking down before the attack gets going. How many times do we see the Habs play a string of excellent games where the offense and pp seem to be clicking then they fall flat for awhile. Then players try and do too much, the spacing between forwards and D tends to get too big, and the system implodes. It takes vets and coaching to correct this stuff so we'll see. They could be over matched in a year where the AHL is packed with some over qualified players.

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11-23-2004, 07:34 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle
I hear what you're saying Cosanostra, but it still gets back to earning it. Gainey is a proponent of a player paying his dues and learning the system before being given first-line minutes, so is Jarvis. They grew up in the Scotty Bowman/Habs system.

Keep in mind that we're speaking of the system that kept Guy Lafleur off the top two lines for three seasons until he turned 24, the system that kept Pierre Larouche, a 50-goal scorer at 19 years of age, in the press box for much of his first two seasons with the Habs as a 23-24-year-old.

Kosty was -4 in his last game; it doesn't sound like he's earned a spot on the first line anytime soon. He obviously played at least four shifts...perhaps he should have only played one or two, LOL.

I totally agree that he must deserve his ice-time. But it's hard to get your game going when your playing sporatically.

And he was -4 last game, but overall he's -2 for the season. That means he was +2 before the last game making him the only player in his team with a + rating.

Jarvis is playing Ferland and Thinel, who are going nowhere fast, twice as much as Kostitsyn. Just doesn't make sense. I'm sure he's got his reasons, but I can't say I agree with him.

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11-23-2004, 08:29 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanye West
People for get that Kost was rated as

-One of the most talented if not the most talented of his draft year.
Rated by who?

I doubt that claim very much (although I'm sure some clown did say that).

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11-23-2004, 09:02 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatone
You're starting to be annoyiing.They didn't say He was NHL ready , They said that his arsenals of shots was already NHL caliber !!!!
I kind of remember otherwise and Timmins did say he was NHL-ready (what a clown).

If you do a quick search (Ready + Timmins) you will find several posters who do report it as well.

Kost is a victim of hype, much like Komisarek. He has been:

-said to be NHL ready by Habs management
-Compared to Marian Hossa by hockey writers (I think it was in La Presse)
-Hyped to death by clueless Kyle Woodlief of Redline.
-Compared to a grittier Mogilny with the talent of the young Mogilny but the responsible side of the older Mogilny :lol
-A mini, grittier Kovalchuk
-Grittier Pavel Bure
-Marian Gaborik clone
-And as someone said above, several people are convinced this guy was one of, if not THE top talent in the amazing 2003 draft, which is dripping with great talents.

It's pretty sad.

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11-23-2004, 09:13 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I kind of remember otherwise and Timmins did say he was NHL-ready (what a clown).

If you do a quick search (Ready + Timmins) you will find several posters who do report it as well.

Kost is a victim of hype, much like Komisarek. He has been:

-said to be NHL ready by Habs management
-Compared to Marian Hossa by hockey writers (I think it was in La Presse)
-Hyped to death by clueless Kyle Woodlief of Redline.
-Compared to a grittier Mogilny with the talent of the young Mogilny but the responsible side of the older Mogilny :lol
-A mini, grittier Kovalchuk
-Grittier Pavel Bure
-Marian Gaborik clone
-And as someone said above, several people are convinced this guy was one of, if not THE top talent in the amazing 2003 draft, which is dripping with great talents.

It's pretty sad.
Well, can't doubt what you say about the comparisons as there are always people who overhype prospects but as far as talent, he definately has the raw ability to put the puck in the net. If you've seen him play, you can see the quick release and pinpoint accuracy in his shot. The one thing I find missing in his game is defensive awareness (which is probably what Jarvis is trying to teach him in a 4th line role). People seem to think that Jarvis is preventing him from scoring.. well, yeah.. he probably is. He's probably trying to get Kostitsyn to focus solely on his defensive game in a 4th line role and once he feels that the defensive side has improved, he will put him on a scoring line where we will see his true abilities.

I still think he is one of the top offensive talents in that draft. He wasn't a rounded player as others are and for that reason, other players have been more successful to date but his offensive ability is nothing short of amazing.

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11-23-2004, 09:19 AM
  #49
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I really do wonder what the mood would be around here if Kost had 5 goals thus far this season (only two more than he has now). People get freaked out so easily around here, and it gives the trolls the arsenal to come out of the woodwork.

Wow, some of the "experts" around here are incredible. Amazingly, sitting in front of their computers all these hours has allowed them to see each and every player PLAY multiple times over the last couple of years, hence the "educated" stance on each and every individual player.

That Timmins quote is really taking a beating. He said that "certain" parts of Kostys game was NHL ready. Not at any time did he say the entire package was NHL ready.

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11-23-2004, 09:35 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by AH
I really do wonder what the mood would be around here if Kost had 5 goals thus far this season (only two more than he has now). People get freaked out so easily around here, and it gives the trolls the arsenal to come out of the woodwork.
Just to throw another idea out there, I wonder what the mood would be if Kostitsyn had been playing in Medicine Hat this year. (BTW, where is Prokop these days? Is there still an import spot open for Kost there????). Now there's one of the top CHL teams, high octane offense, yet airtight defense too, and if Kostitsyn was playing there like any normal 19-year old should be, he'd probably have buckets of points. He might be leading the league in scoring if he was playing with guys like Meyer or MacArthur.

Instead, the Habs decided to bring him into the organisational fold early, and concentrate on rounding out his game defensively (and presumably on his non-game preparation too). It's a fair plan, for sure, one that many on this board supported in the off-season. Why panic now?

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