HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Arizona Coyotes
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Ownership Cluster**** Thread: The Coyote Chases Its Tail

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-31-2012, 04:23 PM
  #51
kihekah19
Registered User
 
kihekah19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Country: United States
Posts: 2,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/go5997

@LisaHalverstadt

Here's Daly's message to #Coyotes fans, via @Twitlonger: "My message to Coyotes fans would be to sincerely thank them for their ongoing support of this franchise. Please understand that we are working hard and doing everything within our power to produce a positive result for this franchise in this city, and we have never wavered from that objective since the day we bought the club out of bankruptcy. While at some point, we may have no other choice but to explore alternatives, we are sincerely hopeful that we never reach that point."

Fair enough, I reckon. Folks sure will read a whole lot into that bit a nuttn' though.

kihekah19 is offline  
Old
03-31-2012, 04:26 PM
  #52
Brodie
watcher on the walls
 
Brodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Michigan
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 12,163
vCash: 500
I see it as someone trying to say nothing but there's a definite sense of finality about the whole thing between the lines.

Brodie is offline  
Old
03-31-2012, 04:34 PM
  #53
kihekah19
Registered User
 
kihekah19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Country: United States
Posts: 2,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
I see it as someone trying to say nothing but there's a definite sense of finality about the whole thing between the lines.
Like Hulsizer's finalized deal?

kihekah19 is offline  
Old
03-31-2012, 04:53 PM
  #54
Colt45Blast
is in your head
 
Colt45Blast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: everytime
Country: Mexico
Posts: 25,452
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/go5997

@LisaHalverstadt

Here's Daly's message to #Coyotes fans, via @Twitlonger: "My message to Coyotes fans would be to sincerely thank them for their ongoing support of this franchise. Please understand that we are working hard and doing everything within our power to produce a positive result for this franchise in this city, and we have never wavered from that objective since the day we bought the club out of bankruptcy. While at some point, we may have no other choice but to explore alternatives, we are sincerely hopeful that we never reach that point."
So let me get this straight Bill Daly. You never wavied from this objective since you brought this team out of bankruptcy but you never had this objective the moment Moyes gave you the keys back in 2008?

You, Gary, and the NHL can kiss my ****ing ass.

Colt45Blast is offline  
Old
03-31-2012, 05:02 PM
  #55
Rabbit
Captain Cook
 
Rabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: South Bay California
Country: United States
Posts: 4,319
vCash: 500
Quote:
You, Gary, and the NHL can kiss my ****ing ass.
You better take him to dinner afterwards. Without Gary, this process would've been done a long time ago, and not in our favor.

Rabbit is offline  
Old
03-31-2012, 05:34 PM
  #56
kihekah19
Registered User
 
kihekah19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Country: United States
Posts: 2,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AP View Post
So let me get this straight Bill Daly. You never wavied from this objective since you brought this team out of bankruptcy but you never had this objective the moment Moyes gave you the keys back in 2008?

You, Gary, and the NHL can kiss my ****ing ass.

I think you're reading WAY TOO MUCH into that.

Got to admit though, I did not expect that angle.

kihekah19 is offline  
Old
03-31-2012, 07:58 PM
  #57
Colt45Blast
is in your head
 
Colt45Blast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: everytime
Country: Mexico
Posts: 25,452
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit3119 View Post
You better take him to dinner afterwards. Without Gary, this process would've been done a long time ago, and not in our favor.
Oh I have been paying much attention and even if the team does stay here I won't forgive the NHL and company anytime soon for this cluster**** they contributed too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
I think you're reading WAY TOO MUCH into that.

Got to admit though, I did not expect that angle.
What you think I'm doing and what I'm doing are 2 different things. As a highly sophisticated thinking individual as myself, my job is to analyze all the info I see and use by BS filter to get to the truth.

Colt45Blast is offline  
Old
03-31-2012, 11:59 PM
  #58
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,098
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AP View Post

You, Gary, and the NHL can kiss my ****ing ass.
Nicely put. Im beyond being pissed, angered & frustrated with the manner in which the league has dealt with the situation as well. Talk is cheap, this crew about as broke as it gets when it comes to walking the walk. Absolutely gutless, inexcusable.

Killion is online now  
Old
04-01-2012, 12:56 AM
  #59
Sinurgy
Embrace Passion
 
Sinurgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 7,439
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AP View Post
What you think I'm doing and what I'm doing are 2 different things. As a highly sophisticated thinking individual as myself, my job is to analyze all the info I see and use by BS filter to get to the truth.
Just curious, was this a serious post?

Sinurgy is offline  
Old
04-01-2012, 02:27 AM
  #60
TheLegend
Megathread Refugee
 
TheLegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Anxiety Closet
Country: United States
Posts: 3,456
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AP View Post
What you think I'm doing and what I'm doing are 2 different things. As a highly sophisticated thinking individual as myself, my job is to analyze all the info I see and use by BS filter to get to the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
Just curious, was this a serious post?
If a tree fell in the forest.... I wonder what he'd think if Daly said nothing was happening right now, but someday it might fall.

TheLegend is offline  
Old
04-01-2012, 03:26 AM
  #61
awfulwaffle
Registered User
 
awfulwaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Country: United States
Posts: 6,453
vCash: 500
Look, without the NHL taking us, and keeping us here until now, and the COG, we might not even have a team period right now. I feel, if they didn't want us to stay here, we could have been moved already.

Phoenix is a massive market, and it hasn't been a bad area. I really don't understand how people don't go to the games, atleast more than do now. There are plenty of snowbirds from Canada and other places that live here. They show up in droves for their team, but not the Coyotes.

There is obviously a market here, and the NHL sees that. The key is getting those that aren't Coyotes fans to still go see the game, and those that are, to go see the game on a more regular basis.

awfulwaffle is offline  
Old
04-01-2012, 11:26 AM
  #62
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,098
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
Look, without the NHL taking us, and keeping us here until now, and the COG, we might not even have a team period right now. I feel, if they didn't want us to stay here, we could have been moved already.

Phoenix is a massive market, and it hasn't been a bad area. I really don't understand how people don't go to the games, atleast more than do now. There are plenty of snowbirds from Canada and other places that live here. They show up in droves for their team, but not the Coyotes.

There is obviously a market here, and the NHL sees that. The key is getting those that aren't Coyotes fans to still go see the game, and those that are, to go see the game on a more regular basis.
They had no choice in the matter, as they let Moyes slip off the hook with loose language in the Proxy's they provided (along with advances on the Coyotes Revenue Sharing proceeds) in the fall of 2008. They'd known for quite some time that the franchises' ownership (and management) was a mess, that Moyes wanted out. Moyes going for a Hail Mary with Balsillie & BK; the NHL's chosen one in Reinsdorf not nearly enough committed to closing a sale, pulling out of the bidding process for spurious reasons when details of his offer were leaked. The "half dozen or so interested parties" the NHL claimed to have on the line as prospects never materializing. Forced into buying the team themselves.

Well, they had months before Moyes pushed the button to get a deal done & dithered. Wasted time & money. If Reinsdorfs offer was that bad & so unacceptable to Moyes then where were theses other suitors who mightve sweetened the pot?. So they did the right thing, bought the team, shutting out Balsillie. Then what?. The one decent chance they had in immediately selling the team to Reinsdorf who had re-engaged post BK they & the COG let slip away, followed by the IEH & Hulsizer lunacy, selling false hope, breaking their covenants with the city & the fan base, extorting $50M in subsidies under the guise of an "Arena Management Fee", failing to accept the reality that "price is an issue" and with the ways & means to do so providing a discount, terms & the very kind of relief that would facilitate a local sale.

Damn straight Phoenix could be a decent market, even after all the harm done by previous ownership, management & the league in letting this thing dangle, and ya, even in the face of the biggest economic turndown since the 30's, Westgates foreclosure, the stalling of what are still promising signs that the West Valley is starting its march back onto the road of recovery & urbanization. Look at the Bolts & Panthers, Nashville. The two Florida teams in particular sharing much in common with Phoenix. Through sponsorships, concerts & event bookings, the buildings turning profits while hockey operations are shored up, a "lost leader" in the short-term sure, but once the teams hit their stride & the Band Wagon fans start showing up, they'll be reeled into the boat, clubbed on the head just hard enough to wakeup to the realities of the sport, and over a generation start rooting for the hometown team en-masse as old loyalties from their transplanted parents die-off...

So. Vinik pays (announced sale price & reality are 2 different matters altogether) about $80M for a team that won a Stanley Cup, has some franchise caliber star players, assumes debt of about $60M and also receives the Management Contract at the Arena and real estate surrounding it not 2 years ago. Winnipeg gets the Thrashers for $110M, that Relo Fee bogus & artificial, extortionary as Bettman simply held them to their Coyotes offer of $170M, inserting himself into the transaction between TNSE & ASG, demanding TN pay their previous full price offer for an entirely different franchise while squeezing ASG to the limit in accepting as little as possible (and while this is going down in Georgia, Dalys in Az telling Glendale to cough up another $25M or else the teams moving north to Winnipeg). Gagliardi, after seriously looking at Phoenix moves on to Dallas, assuming debt on the Stars in an almost cashless transaction. Another Cup winning franchise with all kinds of upside beyond just hockey.

But in Phoenix?. Nope. No Siree Bob. Cant be providing any discounts or incentives to motivate a sale, a "realistic valuation". Not when its the NHL's line of credit on the line. If its Hicks, the former idiots in Tampas' money, anyone elses then fine. "The price of the franchise is not an issue" according to Gary Bettman. His words. What color is the sky in that mans World?. Indefensible. Irrational. No ones going to pay it. They know it. Theyve simply "Curbed" the team. Put a price in the front windshield of about 60% more than anyone would ever pay & left it on the front lawn. Price is Firm & it goes up every 6mnths. How they or anyone can defend this kind of reckless negligence I just dont know. Someone above mentioned "if a tree falls in the forest & no ones around, does it make a noise?" as an analogy of sorts. If you smother a franchise & its fanbase to death over time does it make much of a noise?. When you can blame everyone else for your failures to facilitate a local sale while squeezing the heart & soul out of the market and a municipality with pseudo plausibility, providing false hope, avoiding tough questions & never being called out wouldnt you do so?.

I sure as kcuF wouldnt be operating like that, and Im sick to death of seeing this league doing so & getting away with it time & time again. Its just too bad Quebec City doesnt already have a team, the NHL truly boxed in, because unless they arent, and their not, I dont see a local sale transpiring, and whats more, they Bloody Well Know It. Have known it for months upon months, since over-paying in the BK Court... sorry for the

Killion is online now  
Old
04-01-2012, 01:00 PM
  #63
Colt45Blast
is in your head
 
Colt45Blast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: everytime
Country: Mexico
Posts: 25,452
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
They had no choice in the matter, as they let Moyes slip off the hook with loose language in the Proxy's they provided (along with advances on the Coyotes Revenue Sharing proceeds) in the fall of 2008. They'd known for quite some time that the franchises' ownership (and management) was a mess, that Moyes wanted out. Moyes going for a Hail Mary with Balsillie & BK; the NHL's chosen one in Reinsdorf not nearly enough committed to closing a sale, pulling out of the bidding process for spurious reasons when details of his offer were leaked. The "half dozen or so interested parties" the NHL claimed to have on the line as prospects never materializing. Forced into buying the team themselves.

Well, they had months before Moyes pushed the button to get a deal done & dithered. Wasted time & money. If Reinsdorfs offer was that bad & so unacceptable to Moyes then where were theses other suitors who mightve sweetened the pot?. So they did the right thing, bought the team, shutting out Balsillie. Then what?. The one decent chance they had in immediately selling the team to Reinsdorf who had re-engaged post BK they & the COG let slip away, followed by the IEH & Hulsizer lunacy, selling false hope, breaking their covenants with the city & the fan base, extorting $50M in subsidies under the guise of an "Arena Management Fee", failing to accept the reality that "price is an issue" and with the ways & means to do so providing a discount, terms & the very kind of relief that would facilitate a local sale.

Damn straight Phoenix could be a decent market, even after all the harm done by previous ownership, management & the league in letting this thing dangle, and ya, even in the face of the biggest economic turndown since the 30's, Westgates foreclosure, the stalling of what are still promising signs that the West Valley is starting its march back onto the road of recovery & urbanization. Look at the Bolts & Panthers, Nashville. The two Florida teams in particular sharing much in common with Phoenix. Through sponsorships, concerts & event bookings, the buildings turning profits while hockey operations are shored up, a "lost leader" in the short-term sure, but once the teams hit their stride & the Band Wagon fans start showing up, they'll be reeled into the boat, clubbed on the head just hard enough to wakeup to the realities of the sport, and over a generation start rooting for the hometown team en-masse as old loyalties from their transplanted parents die-off...

So. Vinik pays (announced sale price & reality are 2 different matters altogether) about $80M for a team that won a Stanley Cup, has some franchise caliber star players, assumes debt of about $60M and also receives the Management Contract at the Arena and real estate surrounding it not 2 years ago. Winnipeg gets the Thrashers for $110M, that Relo Fee bogus & artificial, extortionary as Bettman simply held them to their Coyotes offer of $170M, inserting himself into the transaction between TNSE & ASG, demanding TN pay their previous full price offer for an entirely different franchise while squeezing ASG to the limit in accepting as little as possible (and while this is going down in Georgia, Dalys in Az telling Glendale to cough up another $25M or else the teams moving north to Winnipeg). Gagliardi, after seriously looking at Phoenix moves on to Dallas, assuming debt on the Stars in an almost cashless transaction. Another Cup winning franchise with all kinds of upside beyond just hockey.

But in Phoenix?. Nope. No Siree Bob. Cant be providing any discounts or incentives to motivate a sale, a "realistic valuation". Not when its the NHL's line of credit on the line. If its Hicks, the former idiots in Tampas' money, anyone elses then fine. "The price of the franchise is not an issue" according to Gary Bettman. His words. What color is the sky in that mans World?. Indefensible. Irrational. No ones going to pay it. They know it. Theyve simply "Curbed" the team. Put a price in the front windshield of about 60% more than anyone would ever pay & left it on the front lawn. Price is Firm & it goes up every 6mnths. How they or anyone can defend this kind of reckless negligence I just dont know. Someone above mentioned "if a tree falls in the forest & no ones around, does it make a noise?" as an analogy of sorts. If you smother a franchise & its fanbase to death over time does it make much of a noise?. When you can blame everyone else for your failures to facilitate a local sale while squeezing the heart & soul out of the market and a municipality with pseudo plausibility, providing false hope, avoiding tough questions & never being called out wouldnt you do so?.

I sure as kcuF wouldnt be operating like that, and Im sick to death of seeing this league doing so & getting away with it time & time again. Its just too bad Quebec City doesnt already have a team, the NHL truly boxed in, because unless they arent, and their not, I dont see a local sale transpiring, and whats more, they Bloody Well Know It. Have known it for months upon months, since over-paying in the BK Court... sorry for the
Excellent post!!! I have come to enjoy reading your stuff as you are one of the more accurate when it comes to this matter and you display no self-fulfilling prophecy in the process.

The truth is anyone who says the NHL and company is fighting hard to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix is mistaken. What the NHL and company are really doing are finding away to get out of a bad situation without losing any money and look like the good guy in the process. So far, everything as worked according to plan in their favor with the help of a judge who failed to uphold the origional lease in court by not understanding that both Pittsburgh's lease at the Igloo and current Islanders lease were both held up in court regardless of how much money was lost.

Sadly businesses think they can do whatever they want and they get away with the crap they pull almost all the time.

Colt45Blast is offline  
Old
04-01-2012, 01:30 PM
  #64
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,098
vCash: 500
Sure enough. And I get it. Its just cold hard business. However, there are covenants made between a league and a team with a city and its citizens. You simply cant expect to be taken seriously when your so transparently on the take, on the make, when youve already got a lousy track record & rep in almost every corner of North America. A history thats notorious, and then wonder why so many Americans are turned off, tuned out, realizing the ******* League is absolute Bush.

So why even bother developing a taste for the game let alone invest in it emotionally and financially?. Been the case with these genuises since 67 & the first major expansion. No one, but no one in Sports or Entertainment should assume their audience is stupid, has short memories, guillable Rubes.... wheres the respect?!. Give it your best, give it your all or get off the stage.


Last edited by Killion: 04-01-2012 at 01:45 PM.
Killion is online now  
Old
04-01-2012, 03:15 PM
  #65
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 8,562
vCash: 500
Quote:
@LisaHalverstadt

Here's Daly's message to #Coyotes fans, via @Twitlonger: "My message to Coyotes fans would be to sincerely thank them for their ongoing support of this franchise. Please understand that we are working hard and doing everything within our power to produce a positive result for this franchise in this city, and we have never wavered from that objective since the day we bought the club out of bankruptcy. While at some point, we may have no other choice but to explore alternatives, we are sincerely hopeful that we never reach that point."
Parse the claim that the NHL is "doing everything within our power" to "produce a positive result", with Bettman saying that price has never been an issue and the sale, and you get this....


Whileee is offline  
Old
04-01-2012, 03:19 PM
  #66
Sinurgy
Embrace Passion
 
Sinurgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 7,439
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
Just curious, was this a serious post?
Since you didn't respond, I'm just going to assume either it wasn't or you had been drinking.

Sinurgy is offline  
Old
04-01-2012, 06:47 PM
  #67
Naurutger
#FreeMax
 
Naurutger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Maricopa County
Country: United States
Posts: 5,166
vCash: 1329
http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.ph...gue_wide_talk/

John Shannon in the second video expects one more season here due to the CBA.

Naurutger is offline  
Old
04-01-2012, 06:55 PM
  #68
awfulwaffle
Registered User
 
awfulwaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Country: United States
Posts: 6,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.ph...gue_wide_talk/

John Shannon in the second video expects one more season here due to the CBA.
Never seen this show, and these guys, but that guy in the middle is a ****** rocket.

awfulwaffle is offline  
Old
04-01-2012, 07:01 PM
  #69
Naurutger
#FreeMax
 
Naurutger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Maricopa County
Country: United States
Posts: 5,166
vCash: 1329
Quote:
Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
Never seen this show, and these guys, but that guy in the middle is a ****** rocket.
Yep, special fella indeed.

Naurutger is offline  
Old
04-01-2012, 07:15 PM
  #70
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,098
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
Never seen this show, and these guys, but that guy in the middle is a ****** rocket.
Its a cable network called Sportsnet out of Toronto with studios across Canada. The guy in the middle is former player Nick Kypreos, former Ranger & Leaf etc, fighter type whose career ended early with concussions.

He tends to be pretty opinionated & is usually very critical of the NHL & Bettman. He does have fairly reliable sources, more often right than wrong. He called out the league on its BS announcement that Vinik had paid 160M for Tampa, which according to his sources was about half that and included real estate etc.

Hard to tell with Shannon. Former NHL Broadcast & Hockey Night in Canada Executive. Often accused of being a mouthpiece for the NHL when they want a story or slant released. On the one hand ya the CBA is a factor but the sale of the team doesnt hinge on it. Locally it would, but not on a relo, more to worry about than not if you wanna see that team staying put.

Killion is online now  
Old
04-01-2012, 07:44 PM
  #71
OttawaRoughRiderFan
Make It 30!!!!
 
OttawaRoughRiderFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Niagara
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,061
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
Never seen this show, and these guys, but that guy in the middle is a ****** rocket.
Quote:
Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
Yep, special fella indeed.
Not sure if you'd want to make those comments to his face - he was one tough hombre. He also won a Stanley Cup. His career was ended thusly :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDmpKOLFS64

**

I think Shannon is correct.


Last edited by OttawaRoughRiderFan: 04-01-2012 at 08:05 PM.
OttawaRoughRiderFan is offline  
Old
04-01-2012, 08:25 PM
  #72
kihekah19
Registered User
 
kihekah19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Country: United States
Posts: 2,182
vCash: 500
One word boys.... Leinenkugel's

kihekah19 is offline  
Old
04-01-2012, 08:37 PM
  #73
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,098
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
One word boys.... Leinenkugel's
You havin a cold one right now kihekah?...

Killion is online now  
Old
04-02-2012, 12:44 AM
  #74
lockstock
Registered User
 
lockstock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Kauai
Country: United States
Posts: 870
vCash: 500
Does anyone have any numbers on Canadian tourism or homes owned in AZ? With their dollar's parity to the US dollar, Canadians are buying real estate out here faster than any other market segment. I've heard the same is true in AZ, soCal, and Florida.

I've personally talked to quite a few Canadians that own second homes in AZ or know people that are looking for a second home at current prices. I've even talked to quite a few canadians that own in AZ and are now Yotes fans. It seems that if there's a time for the Coyotes to be able to build a good fanbase, it's now. We have a great team for the bandwagoners to jump on and many great white northerners are moving to the area in droves. What a bummer for all of those pale whales if they won't be able to watch their hockey in their new retirement destination.

lockstock is offline  
Old
04-02-2012, 12:54 AM
  #75
rt
Usually Incorrect
 
rt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Rarely Sober
Country: United States
Posts: 41,906
vCash: 500
I can't understand how the cba would have an effect on this situation.

__________________
This poster should not be taken seriously under any circumstances.
rt is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:11 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.