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Ownership Cluster**** Thread: The Coyote Chases Its Tail

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04-02-2012, 08:25 AM
  #76
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I can't understand how the cba would have an effect on this situation.
In a way, I think it does. IMO, the league doesn't want to start negotiations not having the Coyotes situation settled, one way or the other.

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04-02-2012, 09:21 AM
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In a way, I think it does. IMO, the league doesn't want to start negotiations not having the Coyotes situation settled, one way or the other.
What does one have to do with the other? Players are being paid, contract terms are being met, players union has no gripe here. Now 29 other owners, that's a different story.

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04-02-2012, 10:25 AM
  #78
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My confusion is this, there will need to be a definite, concrete, irreversible decision made to relocate or not to relocate, for the upcoming season, by the middle of May at the latest, correct? The CBA negotiations won't heat up until months after that point. A decision will be made concerning which venue this franchise will play out of next season long before anyone has any idea exactly how this cba stuff will sort itself out later in the offseason, no?

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04-02-2012, 10:43 AM
  #79
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(...) A decision will be made concerning which venue this franchise will play out of next season (...)
That's why I think the Phoenix situation will have to be settled by then so the league won't have to discuss that point. Players will have to be reassured on so many others!

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04-02-2012, 10:48 AM
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Look, without the NHL taking us, and keeping us here until now, and the COG, we might not even have a team period right now. I feel, if they didn't want us to stay here, we could have been moved already.

Phoenix is a massive market, and it hasn't been a bad area. I really don't understand how people don't go to the games, atleast more than do now. There are plenty of snowbirds from Canada and other places that live here. They show up in droves for their team, but not the Coyotes.

There is obviously a market here, and the NHL sees that. The key is getting those that aren't Coyotes fans to still go see the game, and those that are, to go see the game on a more regular basis.
Pretty simple the arena is in the wrong location, had it been in Scottsdale or PHX this market may have worked. The NW did not develop in the way the Mayor Scruggs had hoped. The result is fewer casual fans desiring to travel to Glendale.

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04-02-2012, 10:48 AM
  #81
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That's why I think the Phoenix situation will have to be settled by then so the league won't have to discuss that point.
What is "settled"?

1. Local Buyer purchases team
2. Glendale ponies up more cash for another season
3. The league keeps the Coyotes in Glendale another year, public cash or not. (har, har)
4. The team is sold for relocation
5. The team is contracted, and totally folds

Any ideas on any other potential outcomes in the next six or seven weeks? Or are those the only five?

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04-02-2012, 10:50 AM
  #82
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Pretty simple the arena is in the wrong location, had it been in Scottsdale or PHX this market may have worked. The NW did not develop in the way the Mayor Scruggs had hoped. The result is fewer casual fans desiring to travel to Glendale.
That's a large part of it. Being terrible for so many years didn't help either. Crappy economy, too. Then being dragged through the mud during this whole ownership mess. It all contributed.

That said, if the team were in Los Arcos, I think they'd have survived through all of it. Same goes for Riverview. Just a hunch.

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04-02-2012, 10:55 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
What is "settled"?

1. Local Buyer purchases team
2. Glendale ponies up more cash for another season
3. The league keeps the Coyotes in Glendale another year, public cash or not. (har, har)
4. The team is sold for relocation
5. The team is contracted, and totally folds

Any ideas on any other potential outcomes in the next six or seven weeks? Or are those the only five?
I only see options 1 and 4 as satisfying (on either sides) outcomes.


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04-02-2012, 11:09 AM
  #84
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Pretty simple the arena is in the wrong location, had it been in Scottsdale or PHX this market may have worked. The NW did not develop in the way the Mayor Scruggs had hoped. The result is fewer casual fans desiring to travel to Glendale.
The arena location is not the issue and I have proved this several times in the past and I'm not going over this again. Those who continue to complain about the arena being far away are just ******** to this day about having to travel a few extra miles to and from the arena. Boo Hoo Hoo, let them go cry me a river!!!!

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04-02-2012, 11:10 AM
  #85
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They had no choice in the matter, as they let Moyes slip off the hook with loose language in the Proxy's they provided (along with advances on the Coyotes Revenue Sharing proceeds) in the fall of 2008. They'd known for quite some time that the franchises' ownership (and management) was a mess, that Moyes wanted out. Moyes going for a Hail Mary with Balsillie & BK; the NHL's chosen one in Reinsdorf not nearly enough committed to closing a sale, pulling out of the bidding process for spurious reasons when details of his offer were leaked. The "half dozen or so interested parties" the NHL claimed to have on the line as prospects never materializing. Forced into buying the team themselves.

Well, they had months before Moyes pushed the button to get a deal done & dithered. Wasted time & money. If Reinsdorfs offer was that bad & so unacceptable to Moyes then where were theses other suitors who mightve sweetened the pot?. So they did the right thing, bought the team, shutting out Balsillie. Then what?. The one decent chance they had in immediately selling the team to Reinsdorf who had re-engaged post BK they & the COG let slip away, followed by the IEH & Hulsizer lunacy, selling false hope, breaking their covenants with the city & the fan base, extorting $50M in subsidies under the guise of an "Arena Management Fee", failing to accept the reality that "price is an issue" and with the ways & means to do so providing a discount, terms & the very kind of relief that would facilitate a local sale.

Damn straight Phoenix could be a decent market, even after all the harm done by previous ownership, management & the league in letting this thing dangle, and ya, even in the face of the biggest economic turndown since the 30's, Westgates foreclosure, the stalling of what are still promising signs that the West Valley is starting its march back onto the road of recovery & urbanization. Look at the Bolts & Panthers, Nashville. The two Florida teams in particular sharing much in common with Phoenix. Through sponsorships, concerts & event bookings, the buildings turning profits while hockey operations are shored up, a "lost leader" in the short-term sure, but once the teams hit their stride & the Band Wagon fans start showing up, they'll be reeled into the boat, clubbed on the head just hard enough to wakeup to the realities of the sport, and over a generation start rooting for the hometown team en-masse as old loyalties from their transplanted parents die-off...

So. Vinik pays (announced sale price & reality are 2 different matters altogether) about $80M for a team that won a Stanley Cup, has some franchise caliber star players, assumes debt of about $60M and also receives the Management Contract at the Arena and real estate surrounding it not 2 years ago. Winnipeg gets the Thrashers for $110M, that Relo Fee bogus & artificial, extortionary as Bettman simply held them to their Coyotes offer of $170M, inserting himself into the transaction between TNSE & ASG, demanding TN pay their previous full price offer for an entirely different franchise while squeezing ASG to the limit in accepting as little as possible (and while this is going down in Georgia, Dalys in Az telling Glendale to cough up another $25M or else the teams moving north to Winnipeg). Gagliardi, after seriously looking at Phoenix moves on to Dallas, assuming debt on the Stars in an almost cashless transaction. Another Cup winning franchise with all kinds of upside beyond just hockey.

But in Phoenix?. Nope. No Siree Bob. Cant be providing any discounts or incentives to motivate a sale, a "realistic valuation". Not when its the NHL's line of credit on the line. If its Hicks, the former idiots in Tampas' money, anyone elses then fine. "The price of the franchise is not an issue" according to Gary Bettman. His words. What color is the sky in that mans World?. Indefensible. Irrational. No ones going to pay it. They know it. Theyve simply "Curbed" the team. Put a price in the front windshield of about 60% more than anyone would ever pay & left it on the front lawn. Price is Firm & it goes up every 6mnths. How they or anyone can defend this kind of reckless negligence I just dont know. Someone above mentioned "if a tree falls in the forest & no ones around, does it make a noise?" as an analogy of sorts. If you smother a franchise & its fanbase to death over time does it make much of a noise?. When you can blame everyone else for your failures to facilitate a local sale while squeezing the heart & soul out of the market and a municipality with pseudo plausibility, providing false hope, avoiding tough questions & never being called out wouldnt you do so?.

I sure as kcuF wouldnt be operating like that, and Im sick to death of seeing this league doing so & getting away with it time & time again. Its just too bad Quebec City doesnt already have a team, the NHL truly boxed in, because unless they arent, and their not, I dont see a local sale transpiring, and whats more, they Bloody Well Know It. Have known it for months upon months, since over-paying in the BK Court... sorry for the
I have said it for years, the asking price is a pretty good indicator that GB has been lying and obfuscating for two years, ripping off the PHX fan base with baseless rhetoric. The fans should be remunerated for the false hope all in the name of the little short man getting his way. Frankly, I think the NHL should reimburse the COG, for I am certain they put the city money up based on the lies being told to them by GB, he falsely represented the would be buyers. They were his straw men, paraded in front of Scruggs and her gang in an effort to extort the city and buy the NHL more time to get another city ready for the relocation.

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04-02-2012, 11:19 AM
  #86
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The arena location is not the issue and I have proved this several times in the past and I'm not going over this again. Those who continue to complain about the arena being far away are just ******** to this day about having to travel a few extra miles to and from the arena. Boo Hoo Hoo, let them go cry me a river!!!!
I respectfully disagree with you, i have spoken to many people vacationing in Scottsdale and to the East who are hockey fans but refuse to make the trek to Glendale. Remember, many of these people are on vacation, for say one week, are simply not interested in spending vacation time caught in traffic and w/o the ability to enjoy a few adult beverages w/o being subjected to the tent cities. The restaurants in the Westgate area overcrowded and marginal at best. Imagine, how many dinner options there would be for would be fans if the arena was located in Scottsdale? Ask yourself, if you were bringing in a new team three years from now and you were offered the Glendale location with a new rink or a Scottsdale location with a new rink which would you take?

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04-02-2012, 11:26 AM
  #87
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I have said it for years, the asking price is a pretty good indicator that GB has been lying and obfuscating for two years, ripping off the PHX fan base with baseless rhetoric. The fans should be remunerated for the false hope all in the name of the little short man getting his way. Frankly, I think the NHL should reimburse the COG, for I am certain they put the city money up based on the lies being told to them by GB, he falsely represented the would be buyers. They were his straw men, paraded in front of Scruggs and her gang in an effort to extort the city and buy the NHL more time to get another city ready for the relocation.
The league have been, and is still asking the price they think they can get anywhere (except in Glendale/Phoenix I suppose). Why would they? For the love of the game??? Come oooooon! This is strictly business! Cold hearted business.

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04-02-2012, 11:29 AM
  #88
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I respectfully disagree with you, i have spoken to many people vacationing in Scottsdale and to the East who are hockey fans but refuse to make the trek to Glendale. Remember, many of these people are on vacation, for say one week, are simply not interested in spending vacation time caught in traffic and w/o the ability to enjoy a few adult beverages w/o being subjected to the tent cities. The restaurants in the Westgate area overcrowded and marginal at best. Imagine, how many dinner options there would be for would be fans if the arena was located in Scottsdale? Ask yourself, if you were bringing in a new team three years from now and you were offered the Glendale location with a new rink or a Scottsdale location with a new rink which would you take?
This is your opinion. I have many friends that come to the valley on vacation that will drive an hour to a golf course and have no problem going to the games.
How far do the people with visiting team sweaters drive to attend games.
Fans will go if they are fans.
Check other NHL cities and how far the drive to the arena is.
Your argument requires that we roll back time - lets move on.

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04-02-2012, 11:30 AM
  #89
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I respectfully disagree with you, i have spoken to many people vacationing in Scottsdale and to the East who are hockey fans but refuse to make the trek to Glendale. Remember, many of these people are on vacation, for say one week, are simply not interested in spending vacation time caught in traffic and w/o the ability to enjoy a few adult beverages w/o being subjected to the tent cities. The restaurants in the Westgate area overcrowded and marginal at best. Imagine, how many dinner options there would be for would be fans if the arena was located in Scottsdale? Ask yourself, if you were bringing in a new team three years from now and you were offered the Glendale location with a new rink or a Scottsdale location with a new rink which would you take?
There are plenty of people who live in AZ and will travel to see a game no matter where they live in the state and lots of people on vacation will see a hockey game no matter where they are staying in the state. Also, did you ask those same people where in AZ they were visiting as well?? I wouldnt be surprised if all of them had plans to travel to somewhere outside of the Valley. Plus, last I checked there are hotels and motels to stay in all over so it is not like those same people could have stayed in Glendale for a night or 2 for a game and certainly cheap ones as well even with the price hike during the states money making season but if those same people are willing to stay in a city that costs more to stay in than a place like Glendale they have the cash to make the trip to Glendale.

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04-02-2012, 11:31 AM
  #90
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The arena location is not the issue and I have proved this several times in the past and I'm not going over this again.
I thought it was an issue until I saw the Dbacks last year. Even been centralized, and with a great team, attendance figures were down. The economy has people second guessing what to spend their money on so instead of buying season tickets, people are buying single game tickets. In the past, season ticket holders would sell most of their weekday games at a major discount; while this still happens, the frequency is less. Jobbing is about 15 minutes further away than Chase but in the Valley, it is not that much more time on the freeways.

I also think the CBA could result in one or two of these things impacting the Coyotes sale one way or the other:

1) A strike could occur; the club wont lose as much without having to make player salary payments, attendance is usually lower at the start of the season.
2) The determination on how to apply a sales/relo fee amount to the NHL is a sticking point (is it profits to share with the players or a repayment to the league).
3) The complexity with the schedules and the 4 division format; moving the Coyotes would only add to this debate.
4) CBA is done early and a local owner would find it more favorable to teams which increases the desire to pay more for the club.
5) Buyers locally and abroad are not willing to put money down until the CBA is finalized.

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04-02-2012, 11:36 AM
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The arena location is not the issue and I have proved this several times in the past and I'm not going over this again. Those who continue to complain about the arena being far away are just ******** to this day about having to travel a few extra miles to and from the arena. Boo Hoo Hoo, let them go cry me a river!!!!
We've been over this plenty of times, but it's in no way a settled issue just because you think it is. Regardless of how many snowbirds they draw, this team is not likely to be profitable until they draw regular season ticket holders 35-40 nights a year. Making the drive on eight Sundays a year for Cardinals game is one thing; making it five times as often, usually during the week, is another thing entirely, and for a lot of reasons.

I know you don't want to believe it, so I don't expect you to ever concede this point. But it's not something you can just write off.

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04-02-2012, 11:38 AM
  #92
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(...) The economy has people second guessing what to spend their money on so instead of buying season tickets, people are buying single game tickets. (...)
I agree on this. And in non traditional markets, I guess hockey is not on top of priority lists...

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04-02-2012, 11:45 AM
  #93
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I thought it was an issue until I saw the Dbacks last year. Even been centralized, and with a great team, attendance figures were down. The economy has people second guessing what to spend their money on so instead of buying season tickets, people are buying single game tickets. In the past, season ticket holders would sell most of their weekday games at a major discount; while this still happens, the frequency is less. Jobbing is about 15 minutes further away than Chase but in the Valley, it is not that much more time on the freeways.

I also think the CBA could result in one or two of these things impacting the Coyotes sale one way or the other:

1) A strike could occur; the club wont lose as much without having to make player salary payments, attendance is usually lower at the start of the season.
2) The determination on how to apply a sales/relo fee amount to the NHL is a sticking point (is it profits to share with the players or a repayment to the league).
3) The complexity with the schedules and the 4 division format; moving the Coyotes would only add to this debate.
4) CBA is done early and a local owner would find it more favorable to teams which increases the desire to pay more for the club.
5) Buyers locally and abroad are not willing to put money down until the CBA is finalized.
The cba won't begin negotiations until weeks after the Coyotes fate for next season must be decided.

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04-02-2012, 11:52 AM
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I agree on this. And in non traditional markets, I guess hockey is not on top of priority lists...
To me it is tops but I will only get season tickets to any sports team right before the start of each team's year. I hate the idea of paying for something 8 months in advance without knowing what my personal finances will look like; I also want to see what the team looks like first. 2009 burnt me for the diamondbacks

But those are personal reasons and despite the offer to buy a full season with the Coyotes at this year's rate, the combination of economic security with the team's ownership issues forces me to say no at this time. I could either have season tickets and no job in 8 months or a job and not team (I think this is a lot of people's views); I will not be a kind person waiting on a refund, I would want it the very day its leaked.

But again, whether or not the Suns/ASU are good next year will be irrelevant. Both teams will have a lower season renewal which if combined with higher expectations for the Coyotes, it could lead to higher season ticket holders next year (if something is worked out).

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04-02-2012, 11:57 AM
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The cba won't begin negotiations until weeks after the Coyotes fate for next season must be decided.
Exactly, that is why people like Shannon (and myself) believe the Coyotes wont move because of the uncertainty. If we knew beforehand, the pieces to the puzzle would move faster with the Coyotes.

For the last 2 years, the NHL has not lost any money with the Coyotes. I am one of the few people to think they made money on the team (going by the fact of a -24 million in operating income and adding the 25 million from Glendale). So keeping the team here, the NHL could simply add any losses to a relocation fee that I am sure another city would be happy to pay for next year. The team could also be sold and kept here in which case that owner would pay for next year's losses (assuming no payments from COG).

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04-02-2012, 12:01 PM
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We've been over this plenty of times, but it's in no way a settled issue just because you think it is. Regardless of how many snowbirds they draw, this team is not likely to be profitable until they draw regular season ticket holders 35-40 nights a year. Making the drive on eight Sundays a year for Cardinals game is one thing; making it five times as often, usually during the week, is another thing entirely, and for a lot of reasons.

I know you don't want to believe it, so I don't expect you to ever concede this point. But it's not something you can just write off.
Except when the playoffs came, people were willing to come out of the woodwork to see the games no matter the factors both beyond and not beyond their control and based on the fact it is the playoffs the sellouts will continue to happen all the way to the last game the Coyotes have in a Cup Final(if they make it of course) and the most of the snowbirds start leaving in Late March-Early April.

Plus for the record, even though the team never had a huge ticket holder base with a waiting list for tickets and despite all that has gone on with the team, the ticket sales team continue to add new ticket holders even with losing over 3000 of them after the bankruptcy filing. If the bankruptcy were not filed and with the success the team has had the last 3 seasons the team would have at least 10,000 full season ticket holders.

As far as the Arizona Cardinals are concerned, what was their attendence like for 20 plus years at Sun Devil Stadium on any given Sunday in a place where not only football is more popular than hockey but also where the Cardinals did play in the past is just down the street from where the Coyotes would have ended up playing in Scottsdale if the arena was but there?


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04-02-2012, 12:18 PM
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I thought it was an issue until I saw the Dbacks last year. Even been centralized, and with a great team, attendance figures were down. The economy has people second guessing what to spend their money on so instead of buying season tickets, people are buying single game tickets. In the past, season ticket holders would sell most of their weekday games at a major discount; while this still happens, the frequency is less. Jobbing is about 15 minutes further away than Chase but in the Valley, it is not that much more time on the freeways.

I also think the CBA could result in one or two of these things impacting the Coyotes sale one way or the other:

1) A strike could occur; the club wont lose as much without having to make player salary payments, attendance is usually lower at the start of the season.
2) The determination on how to apply a sales/relo fee amount to the NHL is a sticking point (is it profits to share with the players or a repayment to the league).
3) The complexity with the schedules and the 4 division format; moving the Coyotes would only add to this debate.
4) CBA is done early and a local owner would find it more favorable to teams which increases the desire to pay more for the club.
5) Buyers locally and abroad are not willing to put money down until the CBA is finalized.
Excellent point with the DBacks also the Suns have took an attendence hit with the team no longer a title contender and they play not only right next door to the DBacks but also where the Coyotes used to play and both places are alot closer to where the Coyotes would have ended up. For the Arizona Cardinals, its a matter now of when the sellout streak at UofP Stadium ends as a result of the team sucking once again and certainly not getting Peyton Manning and allowing Kolb to stay is going to make that happen sooner than later judging by the negative verbal reaction from the Cardinals fan base.

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04-02-2012, 12:18 PM
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Except when the playoffs came, people were willing to come out of the woodwork to see the games no matter the factors both beyond and not beyond their control and based on the fact it is the playoffs the sellouts will continue to happen all the way to the last game the Coyotes have in a Cup Final(if they make it of course) and the most of the snowbirds start leaving in Late March-Early April.
The Coyotes had two home playoff games last year and three the year before. It's a distance people can travel for big events (like playoff games), but asking someone to drive that far for an early season game against the Hurricanes is a different story.

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Plus for the record, even though the team never had a huge ticket holder base with a waiting list for tickets and despite all that has gone on with the team, the ticket sales team continue to add new ticket holders even with losing over 3000 of them after the bankruptcy filing. If the bankruptcy were not filed and with the success the team has had the last 3 seasons the team would have at least 10,000 full season ticket holders.
Is that number anything other than idle speculation? I should also mention that I don't think the arena location means the market can't work. It's just a very large hurdle to clear.

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Originally Posted by AP View Post
As far as the Arizona Cardinals are concerned, what was their attendence like for 20 plus years at Sun Devil Stadium on any given Sunday in a place where not only football is more popular than hockey but also where the Cardinals did play in the past is just down the street from where the Coyotes would have ended up playing in Scottsdale if the arena was but there?
I'd like to respond to this but I can't parse this sentence or figure out what you're asking me. If you have a less Faulknerian way of phrasing, I'm happy to respond. Generally, though, a football team is not a good comparison for a hockey team. I don't think there's a market in this country where hockey is bigger than football, and in most cases, it's just a fraction. Hockey also plays five times as many games, most of which are not on a weekend. It's just not even close. Not to mention the Cardinals got to Arizona almost a decade before the Coyotes did, and they were able to build a fan base with only a basketball team to compete for attention.

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04-02-2012, 12:53 PM
  #99
Colt45Blast
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
The Coyotes had two home playoff games last year and three the year before. It's a distance people can travel for big events (like playoff games), but asking someone to drive that far for an early season game against the Hurricanes is a different story.
Then it comes down to how much one likes the game of hockey overall. Also, there are plenty of ticket holders who can't make it to every game for other good reasons but don't use the distance of the arena as an excuse to not invest in a ticket package, now if that person can't invest money into one because of the effect the economy has had then that is a different story.


Quote:
Is that number anything other than idle speculation? I should also mention that I don't think the arena location means the market can't work. It's just a very large hurdle to clear.
Before the bankruptcy was filled, 5500 was the number of season ticket holders as reported. My old Season Ticket Rep Mr. McCormick said to me that at least 2500 new season ticket holders were going to be added on top that number but almost all of them canceled after the filing was made. When you also add the 1000 new season ticket holders the team added after each playoff exit despite the ownership mess it is safe to say that the season ticket holder base would be much higher than what it is now and at least 10,000 is a good number to use.

I'm glad you think that a hockey team can make money in Glendale because the ones in valley who are complaining about how a hockey team will never work in Glendale simply because the arena is far from where they live.

Even if I'm wrong and the Coyotes even did so much as sold out most games in Scottsdale(which wouldn't have happened based on the teams record at the time the arena would have been built), what? Do Jerry Moyes and Steve Ellman all of a sudden become great owners? Would their be a lease more in favor of the Coyotes? No bankruptcy? No GWI? While those who say the City was stupid to not go through with a new arena those same people in office could be saying: "Boy are we glad we didnt give this team an arena" after seeing the mess in Glendale right now.



Quote:
I'd like to respond to this but I can't parse this sentence or figure out what you're asking me. If you have a less Faulknerian way of phrasing, I'm happy to respond. Generally, though, a football team is not a good comparison for a hockey team. I don't think there's a market in this country where hockey is bigger than football, and in most cases, it's just a fraction. Hockey also plays five times as many games, most of which are not on a weekend. It's just not even close. Not to mention the Cardinals got to Arizona almost a decade before the Coyotes did, and they were able to build a fan base with only a basketball team to compete for attention.
While the sports and the schedule structure are different what is not different is the kind of market Phoenix is when it comes to sports. When a team is doing well, people will go. If anything with the econmy it will take longer for a team now winning to build up that base but it is not impossible as a result of a bad economy.

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Old
04-02-2012, 12:57 PM
  #100
DirtyOldMan
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
... asking someone to drive that far for an early season game against the Hurricanes is a different story.
^This. I was in the unique situation the first 3 years after the lockout of living in the East Valley but working at MetroCenter. I split season tickets three ways (with two co-workers), and figured I would volunteer to take the lion's share of the midweek games since I was 'already up there' anyway - it was only another 8-10 miles to get to jobing.com... but all my hockey community friends live in the EV. I never once, as hard as I tried, could get someone to drive the two hours (total) in traffic to meet me for a midweek game, and they *all* gave the same reason - couldn't/wouldn't/didn't wanna leave work early to sit in traffic on a school night to sit in a half-full arena watching our then-marginal nhl team. And now they pretty much *all* agree with mesa, yeah it'll suck if they leave, woulda worked in Scottsdale, oh what might have been, it was so much fun in the days of AWA with Roenick and Tkachuk, etc etc...

I mean, I sure wish there were more of us from the EV willing to make that run more often - I'm a full season ticket holder again now and I do - but there just isn't.

To people familiar with greater Denver, if (for whatever reason) the Nuggets were able to kick the Avs out of the Pepsi Center, and the Avs built a new arena in Boulder... I'm sure there are a lot of people in, say, Parker that now go to a lot of games that would pretty much stop going.

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