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Ownership Cluster**** Thread: The Coyote Chases Its Tail

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04-02-2012, 01:04 PM
  #101
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Just one question for those of you who think Scottsdale was the better way go and the team would make it through the bad economy there. If this is true, then how come no one has come forward to buy the Coyotes and work with the City of Scottsdale towards getting a new arena there right now? If Scottsdale is the ideal place no matter what then people would be in a bidding war right now to get the team and would be willing operate the team either in Glendale or Downtown Phoenix until it is built. Instead, it has not happened!

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04-02-2012, 01:13 PM
  #102
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Just one question for those of you who think Scottsdale was the better way go and the team would make it through the bad economy there. If this is true, then how come no one has come forward to buy the Coyotes and work with the City of Scottsdale towards getting a new arena there right now? If Scottsdale is the ideal place no matter what then people would be in a bidding war right now to get the team and would be willing operate the team either in Glendale or Downtown Phoenix until it is built. Instead, it has not happened!
My point was it would be better than Glendale, it is all relative. Scottsdale would be better than Glendale, would it make it financially in the big picture? who knows!

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04-02-2012, 01:20 PM
  #103
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There are plenty of people who live in AZ and will travel to see a game no matter where they live in the state and lots of people on vacation will see a hockey game no matter where they are staying in the state. Also, did you ask those same people where in AZ they were visiting as well?? I wouldnt be surprised if all of them had plans to travel to somewhere outside of the Valley. Plus, last I checked there are hotels and motels to stay in all over so it is not like those same people could have stayed in Glendale for a night or 2 for a game and certainly cheap ones as well even with the price hike during the states money making season but if those same people are willing to stay in a city that costs more to stay in than a place like Glendale they have the cash to make the trip to Glendale.
If your point is that people will come from anywhere in the Valley to see the Coyotes play, then my question to you is: where are all of these people you refer to who will gladly drive that hour or more to see NHL hockey? The people I speak of could not care less whether there is stable ownership etc. they simply are not interested in going an hour to fight for seats in the few venues at Westgate, that are worth going to, see the game, then having to return. Just saying

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04-02-2012, 01:34 PM
  #104
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2006-2007: Average Attendance was 14,988 (people got sick of losing)
2005-2006: Average Attendance was 15,582 (all at Jobbing)
2003-2004: Average Attendance was 15,467 (novelty of a new stadium)
2002-2003: Average Attendance was 13,229 (all at AWA)
2001-2002: Average Attendance was 13,165 (all at AWA)

The last game at AWA was against Minnesota and had 13,462 in attendance, that same season at Jobbing, 14,603 watched the Wild tie the Coyotes on March 7th. So the attendance problems with the Coyotes appears to be related to a bad product on the ice first, then the ownership issues kept the numbers low.

The location isn’t really the main issue since people said the exact same thing about the stadium being to far for the Dbacks this year. Their last full year at AWA drew 1,000 more fans then this year but early on it was the opposite; the figures show that people only show up when it’s a winning team or when the novelty of a new stadium is in play. I can see why distance isnt the overall problem, people have money on the west side and people in North Phoenix would have the same drive in either case.

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04-02-2012, 01:35 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
We've been over this plenty of times, but it's in no way a settled issue just because you think it is. Regardless of how many snowbirds they draw, this team is not likely to be profitable until they draw regular season ticket holders 35-40 nights a year. Making the drive on eight Sundays a year for Cardinals game is one thing; making it five times as often, usually during the week, is another thing entirely, and for a lot of reasons.

I know you don't want to believe it, so I don't expect you to ever concede this point. But it's not something you can just write off.

That is my point, it is an issue, secondly the atmosphere at Westgate and in particular the lousy restaurant selections do not make for a great evening. The food in the club section at $33.00 is marginally edible, believe me, I have been as a spectator to roughly half of the arenas in the league. The Westgate experience ranks near the bottom in terms of quality and seating availability. The atmosphere is not bad but who wants to just go wander around waiting for the game to begin?

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04-02-2012, 01:36 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
2006-2007: Average Attendance was 14,988 (people got sick of losing)
2005-2006: Average Attendance was 15,582 (all at Jobbing)
2003-2004: Average Attendance was 15,467 (novelty of a new stadium)
2002-2003: Average Attendance was 13,229 (all at AWA)
2001-2002: Average Attendance was 13,165 (all at AWA)

The last game at AWA was against Minnesota and had 13,462 in attendance, that same season at Jobbing, 14,603 watched the Wild tie the Coyotes on March 7th. So the attendance problems with the Coyotes appears to be related to a bad product on the ice first, then the ownership issues kept the numbers low.

The location isnít really the main issue since people said the exact same thing about the stadium being to far for the Dbacks this year. Their last full year at AWA drew 1,000 more fans then this year but early on it was the opposite; the figures show that people only show up when itís a winning team or when the novelty of a new stadium is in play. I can see why distance isnt the overall problem, people have money on the west side and people in North Phoenix would have the same drive in either case.
The AWA building was in a decent location, the building was a complete disgrace!

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04-02-2012, 01:52 PM
  #107
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The AWA building was in a decent location, the building was a complete disgrace!
The AWA now US Airways Center itself is not a disgrace, it's was an arena design more for watching basketball games and with the right renovations hockey would be more viewable everywhere inside the area. What is the disgrace are the people who operated the arena and not only were they not opened-minded enough to making the arena more suitable for hockey viewing but also for not allowing the Coyotes to have any other revenue streams outside of the Coyotes ticket sales.

Also for the record the Coyotes sold-out every single playoff game at the AWA despite the limited view seating.

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04-02-2012, 01:56 PM
  #108
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The AWA now US Airways Center itself is not a disgrace, it's was an arena design more for watching basketball games and with the right renovations hockey would be more viewable everywhere inside the area. What is the disgrace are the people who operated the arena and not only were they not opened-minded enough to making the arena more suitable for hockey viewing but also for not allowing the Coyotes to have any other revenue streams outside of the Coyotes ticket sales.

Also for the record the Coyotes sold-out every single playoff game at the AWA despite the limited view seating.
The AWA would need to undergo a large and costly renovaton to remove the overhang.

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04-02-2012, 02:00 PM
  #109
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The AWA would need to undergo a large and costly renovaton to remove the overhang.
In today's world, yes!!! But back then when the renovations were going on, the cost wouldn't be as high as what it would be now!!

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04-02-2012, 02:02 PM
  #110
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The arena location is not the issue and I have proved this several times in the past and I'm not going over this again. Those who continue to complain about the arena being far away are just ******** to this day about having to travel a few extra miles to and from the arena. Boo Hoo Hoo, let them go cry me a river!!!!
I believe the arena is, or at least was an issue. But it's all water under the bridge at this point, not like they're going to up and move it.

The midseason 2003-2004 move from AWA to Glendale and the lockout the following year--on top of the poor team performance--were all contributing factors to the team losing a substantial portion of their east valley STH base coming out of the lockout.

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04-02-2012, 02:05 PM
  #111
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Then it comes down to how much one likes the game of hockey overall. Also, there are plenty of ticket holders who can't make it to every game for other good reasons but don't use the distance of the arena as an excuse to not invest in a ticket package, now if that person can't invest money into one because of the effect the economy has had then that is a different story.




Before the bankruptcy was filled, 5500 was the number of season ticket holders as reported. My old Season Ticket Rep Mr. McCormick said to me that at least 2500 new season ticket holders were going to be added on top that number but almost all of them canceled after the filing was made. When you also add the 1000 new season ticket holders the team added after each playoff exit despite the ownership mess it is safe to say that the season ticket holder base would be much higher than what it is now and at least 10,000 is a good number to use.

I'm glad you think that a hockey team can make money in Glendale because the ones in valley who are complaining about how a hockey team will never work in Glendale simply because the arena is far from where they live.

Even if I'm wrong and the Coyotes even did so much as sold out most games in Scottsdale(which wouldn't have happened based on the teams record at the time the arena would have been built), what? Do Jerry Moyes and Steve Ellman all of a sudden become great owners? Would their be a lease more in favor of the Coyotes? No bankruptcy? No GWI? While those who say the City was stupid to not go through with a new arena those same people in office could be saying: "Boy are we glad we didnt give this team an arena" after seeing the mess in Glendale right now.





While the sports and the schedule structure are different what is not different is the kind of market Phoenix is when it comes to sports. When a team is doing well, people will go. If anything with the econmy it will take longer for a team now winning to build up that base but it is not impossible as a result of a bad economy.
I think you're contradicting yourself. On one hand, you say that for a lot of people, hockey just isn't a big enough priority. And then you say that the driving distance just isn't an excuse. Well, if hockey isn't a priority, why would you want to drive that distance?

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04-02-2012, 02:07 PM
  #112
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I believe the arena is, or at least was an issue. But it's all water under the bridge at this point, not like they're going to up and move it.

The midseason 2003-2004 move from AWA to Glendale and the lockout the following year--on top of the poor team performance--were all contributing factors to the team losing a substantial portion of their east valley STH base coming out of the lockout.
That is a good point as well with regards to the timing of all of this. The circustances would have been better if the team was better, no lockout and instead of the team playing in the new building halfway through the season should have had the 1st game played in Glendale at the start of the 04-05 season(if there was one of course).

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04-02-2012, 02:10 PM
  #113
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I believe the arena is, or at least was an issue. But it's all water under the bridge at this point, not like they're going to up and move it.

The midseason 2003-2004 move from AWA to Glendale and the lockout the following year--on top of the poor team performance--were all contributing factors to the team losing a substantial portion of their east valley STH base coming out of the lockout.
I think that you hit it right on the head. After a year away from hockey, a huge number of EV fans droped their season tickets. Had they played in 04 - 05 and done okay I bet that those STH would have grumbled about the drive and still would have kept their seats. Hell, I grumble about the drive from Ahwatukee every weekday game.

As an aside, I can get to the arena in 22 minutes on week ends, yet it takes 1hour 10 minutes on weekdays. Traffic plays a major role in the attendance.

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04-02-2012, 02:16 PM
  #114
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If this is true, then how come no one has come forward to buy the Coyotes and work with the City of Scottsdale towards getting a new arena there right now?
Well, Los Arcos has been redeveloped, plus people probably won't want or be able to go through this again:

http://miksa.ils.unc.edu/sgbrowser/b...T19990411.0028

that location was a unique opportunity, closest they could do now would probably be 2 miles east on the res, which opens up a whole different can of worms...

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04-02-2012, 02:22 PM
  #115
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I think you're contradicting yourself. On one hand, you say that for a lot of people, hockey just isn't a big enough priority. And then you say that the driving distance just isn't an excuse. Well, if hockey isn't a priority, why would you want to drive that distance?
I don't see where I'm contracting myself but I'll explain myself better here. If people are not into something, they will not partake into it no matter what. If someone doesn't like hockey, he/she will not see a game even if the hockey game is right next door to where they live. If the person loves hockey(buy loving hockey I mean the interest of the game is far greater than casually following the local team only) then the distance isn't an issue rather other factors could prevent that person from seeing as many games as they would like such as if that person lost their job or money becomes so tight that they are limited to what they can spend, if they can or if the person is going to school and is making education their #1 over anything else(which IMO is the right thing to do).

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04-02-2012, 02:27 PM
  #116
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While people wont drive during the week, then what is the excuse during the weekends? Numbers would be fine if the averaged 10k during the week and 16k on the weekend but they are not.

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04-02-2012, 02:29 PM
  #117
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I don't see where I'm contracting myself but I'll explain myself better here. If people are not into something, they will not partake into it no matter what. If someone doesn't like hockey, he/she will not see a game even if the hockey game is right next door to where they live. If the person loves hockey(buy loving hockey I mean the interest of the game is far greater than casually following the local team only) then the distance isn't an issue rather other factors could prevent that person from seeing as many games as they would like such as if that person lost their job or money becomes so tight that they are limited to what they can spend, if they can or if the person is going to school and is making education their #1 over anything else(which IMO is the right thing to do).
Sure, but not everyone falls into either of those categories. There's a spectrum of people between the poles of "don't care about hockey" and "will go to games no matter what." For those people, there are a lot of things to consider, and it's different for everyone. For a lot of those people, I'm absolutely certain convenience is a factor. Will some of those people only go to a game when the team is better, or when they have an owner? Sure. But for some people (including some of those), they'd go if the arena were closer.

To use an analogy: I live in Washington, and I like baseball. The Phillies are my favorite team, but I enjoy watching baseball for baseball's sake, and the Nationals have some decent players. I went to one game last year, and I enjoyed it. I plan to go to more this year, because I'm now a twenty-minute walk from the stadium. Where I lived last summer, I could take a 45-minute Metro ride (which doesn't include what's likely a more than twenty-to-thirty-minute wait just to get on the train) followed by a fifteen-minute walk, or I could take two different buses and a little bit of walking that would add up to at least an hour. To make a long story short, I'll be going to more games because it's a lot more convenient.

I would also go to more games on top of that if the team were better, if the experience at the stadium were better, etc. But I'm not a single-issue fan.


Last edited by PhoPhan: 04-02-2012 at 02:35 PM.
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04-02-2012, 02:31 PM
  #118
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Well, Los Arcos has been redeveloped, plus people probably won't want or be able to go through this again:

http://miksa.ils.unc.edu/sgbrowser/b...T19990411.0028

that location was a unique opportunity, closest they could do now would probably be 2 miles east on the res, which opens up a whole different can of worms...
But the idea others keep saying is put the arena anywhere in Scottsdale and it would be a success because Scottsdale is the place to put it. Could it just be the reason why the City didnt go though with the idea is because deep down the members didn't think it could work with having just the Coyotes as the only rentee? So far their belief(if that turns out to be their belief) would be true in their eyes after seeing what has happened in Glendale.


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04-02-2012, 02:37 PM
  #119
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While people wont drive during the week, then what is the excuse during the weekends? Numbers would be fine if the averaged 10k during the week and 16k on the weekend but they are not.
Plus traffic is a big, even on the weekends as well.

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04-02-2012, 02:45 PM
  #120
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While people wont drive during the week, then what is the excuse during the weekends? Numbers would be fine if the averaged 10k during the week and 16k on the weekend but they are not.
Since they don't keep track of no shows one can't quantify it, but as someone who attends 70-80% of the time... *in general*, the games are a lot better attended on weekends. Again, I wish it wasn't like this, but the people who sometimes say things like '12,000? no way there were more than 7,000 in there' aren't just making it up... we took advantage of the STH 'if you can't make a game here's a list of games you can trade them for' program at least 3 times, and I'm sure we weren't the only ones, plus there are people who bought them on corporate accounts and say 'hey, anyone want these? no? ok, whatever'

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04-02-2012, 03:19 PM
  #121
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I believe that many people have tired of the ownership saga. They won't commit money or emotional investment into a team that appears to have a one year renewable contract on life. I don't blame them at all.

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04-02-2012, 03:20 PM
  #122
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Exactly, that is why people like Shannon (and myself) believe the Coyotes wont move because of the uncertainty. If we knew beforehand, the pieces to the puzzle would move faster with the Coyotes.

For the last 2 years, the NHL has not lost any money with the Coyotes. I am one of the few people to think they made money on the team (going by the fact of a -24 million in operating income and adding the 25 million from Glendale). So keeping the team here, the NHL could simply add any losses to a relocation fee that I am sure another city would be happy to pay for next year. The team could also be sold and kept here in which case that owner would pay for next year's losses (assuming no payments from COG).
Interesting. So basically the NHL says to COG "pay up for next season", COG says "sorry, we don't have the cash" and NHL says "fine, we will cover losses next season, and repay ourselves either from a local owner via an increased asking price or from relocation via the relo fee?

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04-02-2012, 03:29 PM
  #123
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Interesting. So basically the NHL says to COG "pay up for next season", COG says "sorry, we don't have the cash" and NHL says "fine, we will cover losses next season, and repay ourselves either from a local owner via an increased asking price or from relocation via the relo fee?
It is just my line of thinking yes, with the exception of a local owner. I think they would have to have a deal in place by October/November (in case of a small strike) and then the owner would be in charge of any losses. If no local owner, then the $20+ in losses that could occur shifts the purchase price to say $190? Then its not "new" money that would have to be shared with the NHLPA but rather its the NHL owners paying themselves back.

This is just my way of predicting what the NHL will do. For all I know the team could already be sold and it will be named the Alaskan Malamutes.


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04-02-2012, 05:11 PM
  #124
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I think that you hit it right on the head. After a year away from hockey, a huge number of EV fans droped their season tickets. Had they played in 04 - 05 and done okay I bet that those STH would have grumbled about the drive and still would have kept their seats.

Absolutely. To make matters worse, I believe that team would have been a competitor.

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04-02-2012, 07:02 PM
  #125
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Hell, I grumble about the drive from Ahwatukee every weekday game...
As an aside, I can get to the aena
...
Well, theres your problem right there. Pronounciation. Next time one of Sherrif Joes Deputies pulls you over, try saying "I can get to the A-E-N-A from AH-WAH-TOO-KEE in about 17 minutes driving on the shoulders". Im sure he'll let you carry on instead of holding you up for the usual 60mins running your plates, sobriety tests...

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