What I'm saying is that Beleskey has a big time shot and had a great last year in juniors and hasn't panned out as a top six player. Looking at how Etem plays there are plenty of correlaries to make you at least wary of how Etem's game will translate to the NHL, and there's no doubt he will have to learn some new techniques. The top line isn't the place to be doing that.
And after seein him play in preseason this year, yes - I'd rather have Hagman or Beleskey on the top line until he proves me wrong. He was trying to use his junior moves and it flat out wasn't working. Palmieri has earned his spot by playing and producing against men. Let Etem figure it out in the AHL and not be rushed. I don't believe putting prospects in a position to fail does them any favors.
Ya, I agree with you. I dont think the top line is the place for him to learn. I also agree that Palmieri is ahead of him. But im fine with that too. I actually want Palmieri on the top line. It's still giving one of our prospects a shot over scrubs that just kill offensive chances.
Oh and how is it a position to fail? I think thats just the way you view it. Why cant it be a position to suceed?
Why not? Schwartz has a roster spot coming OUT of NCAA with the best team in the NHL right now. Fowler and DSP both made the roster after draft day. With Koivu and Selanne retiring Etem has a very good shot to make the team.
Because he's done nothing to prove he belongs in the top 6 of an NHL team yet. Various people who have seen him play say that he needs AHL time to adjust to the pro game. From just watching highlights of all of his goals, I can tell you he won't be scoring like that in the NHL. Defensemen at this level are too good.
It's not as simple as saying he scored 60 in the juniors so it should translate into 30 at the NHL. If that were the case Rob Schremp would be an NHL superstar.
And from what is being reported, Selanne and Koivu aren't retiring.
Oh and how is it a position to fail? I think thats just the way you view it. Why cant it be a position to suceed?
It's a position to fail because he will be against playing top defensemen at a level he's never experienced before. From going against 16-20 year old kids against any NHL top 4 defenseman is an incredibly hard adjustment to make.
It's a position to fail because he will be against playing top defensemen at a level he's never experienced before. From going against 16-20 year old kids against any NHL top 4 defenseman is an incredibly hard adjustment to make.
So he's also playing with Getzlaf and Perry who can produce with basically anyone on their line. All Etem needs to do is be able to finish and he's already a step ahead of all our other option except Ryan (And Palmieri). <---Position to succeed. It just depends on how you want to look at it like I said.
Beleskey doesnt have anywhere near the skill to compete against NHL top 4 defenseman. Isnt putting him on the top line putting him in a position to fail? Yes, it is. And he's failed many times at it, has he not? But we want to keep trying it though right? And why is that? And how much less than Blake/Beleskey do you think Etem would produce on the top line IF he was given a chance? I would say theres a small chance of him having less impact on that line that either of Blake/Beleskey, who we ALREADY KNOW have no impact on that line.
So he's also playing with Getzlaf and Perry who can produce with basically anyone on their line. All Etem needs to do is be able to finish and he's already a step ahead of all our other option except Ryan (And Palmieri). <---Position to succeed. It just depends on how you want to look at it like I said.
Beleskey doesnt have anywhere near the skill to compete against NHL top 4 defenseman. Isnt putting him on the top line putting him in a position to fail? Yes, it is. And he's failed many times at it, has he not? But we want to keep trying it though right? And why is that? And how much less than Blake/Beleskey do you think Etem would produce on the top line IF he was given a chance? I would say theres a small chance of him having less impact on that line that either of Blake/Beleskey, who we ALREADY KNOW have no impact on that line.
Stop bringing up Beleskey and Blake, I already said I don't want Blake or Beleskey on the top line. Nor do I want Etem there. And finishing isn't just as magical as getting the perfect pass from Getzlaf or Perry and potting it home, he has to go to the dirty areas, cycle the puck and fight battles against the best defensemen the NHL has to offer. Right now, we have no idea if he can do that.
Unfortunately Ryan is the only proven commodity we have to put with Getzlaf and Perry who is signed for next season. I really hope some holes are filled by FA/trades next year instead of handing rookies positions because of what they've achieved at lower levels. I think you can assume one of them can take a spot on the second line alongside Ryan but assuming you're going to fill multiple holes with inexperienced players is a recipe for failure.
Ya, I agree with you. I dont think the top line is the place for him to learn. I also agree that Palmieri is ahead of him. But im fine with that too. I actually want Palmieri on the top line. It's still giving one of our prospects a shot over scrubs that just kill offensive chances.
Oh and how is it a position to fail? I think thats just the way you view it. Why cant it be a position to suceed?
He's used to being the best player on the ice. The fastest. The strongest. The best shot. The leader. By a considerable margin.
Then he plays against NHL players. He's no longer faster. He's smaller. He's going to get hit - harder and much more frequently. He will no longer be able to score at will because the goalies are exponentially better. He will go from being the man to just another kid on the ice. Some players thrive on that challenge. Most players have their confidence shaken or shattered, and it's hardly rare for that to ruin a player's development. There's a reason nearly every prospect for every team spends a year or two in the AHL. It allows them to ramp up the difficulty curve gradually and learn how to either continue dominating or change their game to play effectively at the next level. There are a LOT of successful juniors scorers that never amounted to anything at the NHL level. The last two WHL players to score like Etem has are amongst them. Palmieri dominates in the AHL but it took him most of the year to catch up to the NHL speed, and that's playing vs men - Etem is used to playing against boys.
Again, I hope to be wrong. But there's a right way to develop prospects and it's not throwing them into a top 6 role.
Because he's done nothing to prove he belongs in the top 6 of an NHL team yet. Various people who have seen him play say that he needs AHL time to adjust to the pro game. From just watching highlights of all of his goals, I can tell you he won't be scoring like that in the NHL. Defensemen at this level are too good.
It's not as simple as saying he scored 60 in the juniors so it should translate into 30 at the NHL. If that were the case Rob Schremp would be an NHL superstar.
And from what is being reported, Selanne and Koivu aren't retiring.
Neither have the three players I mentioned.... If Shwartz made the Blues lineup right out of college I don't see why Etem wouldn't. And yes I have seen Shwartz play and it's not that impressive over Etems performance.
It's a position to fail because he will be against playing top defensemen at a level he's never experienced before. From going against 16-20 year old kids against any NHL top 4 defenseman is an incredibly hard adjustment to make.
I don't even know where to start your points are not valid for any player that has made a NHL lineup after being drafted. All the NCAA players who are being signed right now and playing NHL hockey are disagreeing with you.
I don't even know where to start your points are not valid for any player that has made a NHL lineup after being drafted. All the NCAA players who are being signed right now and playing NHL hockey are disagreeing with you.
The college kids are playing people who are 18-22. Etem has been playing 16-18 year old with a few 19 year olds sprinkled in.
The college kids are playing people who are 18-22. Etem has been playing 16-18 year old with a few 19 year olds sprinkled in.
Junior level of play is either more challenging or equal challenging to NCAA hockey, mainly due to gpa being a requirement. Regardless of age its pro level hockey.... And most NHL players come out of the junior ranks.... So your age difference doesn't really matter.
But that's beside the point.... The poster is saying he has done nothing to prove he is ready for the NHL. But at the same time
Neither has any NCAA Prospect who is recently signed and are currently playing right now.
Junior level of play is either more challenging or equal challenging to NCAA hockey, mainly due to gpa being a requirement. Regardless of age its pro level hockey.... And most NHL players come out of the junior ranks.... So your age difference doesn't really matter.
It matters quite a bit when it comes to the speed and strength of the people whom you play against. When your game is based on physical dominance rather than skill dominance, that's potentially a rather big deal.
And in reference to Schwartz - he's playing 4th line minutes. You really want to see Etem on the 4th line.
I don't even know where to start your points are not valid for any player that has made a NHL lineup after being drafted. All the NCAA players who are being signed right now and playing NHL hockey are disagreeing with you.
There are exceptions to every rule but most exceptions are of the Crosby/Stamkos/Hall variety where they are flat out good enough to jump to the next level. Etem is not in their league, those guys at 17 had just as impressive years (some moreso) in juniors as Etem did at the age of 19.
Re NCAA players, as DVM said, College kids are older than juniors, some as old as 24. The skill level is about the same but the College level has a lot more physically mature players than juniors does. Not to mention that guys like Schwartz are only playing about 11 minutes a night in pretty minor roles, they're not being asked to step into their teams top 6 immediately after signing.
It matters quite a bit when it comes to the speed and strength of the people whom you play against. When your game is based on physical dominance rather than skill dominance, that's potentially a rather big deal.
And in reference to Schwartz - he's playing 4th line minutes. You really want to see Etem on the 4th line.
This is a argument that would take ages to decide. You didn't include my full post nor my most important point. The poster has said he has done nothing to prove he is worthy of a roster spot.
With that being said, the NCAA players who just signed and are playing right now, RNH, Hall, Fowler, DSP, etc had no higher level of hockey besides juniors or college. So to make this statement is not even worth discussing cause it doesn't make sense.
And don't use stats to back up this point because He is leading the WHL and the entire CHL in goals this season.... So yes it gets you nowhere.
This is a argument that would take ages to decide. You didn't include my full post nor my most important point. The poster has said he has done nothing to prove he is worthy of a roster spot.
With that being said, the NCAA players who just signed and are playing right now, RNH, Hall, Fowler, DSP, etc had no higher level of hockey besides juniors or college. So to make this statement is not even worth discussing cause it doesn't make sense.
And he hasn't. He's proved that he was better at 19 than a bunch of 16-18 year olds. Paul already answered your point well about the relevance to Hall, etc.. As far as the college kids, they were signed to make sure that the teams don't lose them the way the Ducks are about to lose Schultz. Expect to see many/most of them in the AHL next year.
Here are the goal scoring leaders for the WHL
10-11 - Tyler Johnson, 53
09-10 - Kyle Beach, 52
08-09 - Joel Broda, 53
07-08 - Colton Yellow Horn, 48
06-07 - Mark Derlago, 46
05-06 - Justin Keller, 51
04-05 - Eric Fehr, 59
03-04 - Jeremy Williams, 52
02-03 - Eric Christiansen, 54
01-02 - Joffrey Lupul, 56
00-01 - Layne Ulmer, 63
Impressive group of instant impact can't miss prospects, isn't it?
This is a argument that would take ages to decide. You didn't include my full post nor my most important point. The poster has said he has done nothing to prove he is worthy of a roster spot.
With that being said, the NCAA players who just signed and are playing right now, RNH, Hall, Fowler, DSP, etc had no higher level of hockey besides juniors or college. So to make this statement is not even worth discussing cause it doesn't make sense.
And don't use stats to back up this point because He is leading the WHL and the entire CHL in goals this season.... So yes it gets you nowhere.
Actually I said he shouldn't be handed a spot in the top 6 without earning it first. And he has done nothing to prove he's been worthy of it so far unless you consider being among the first cuts last training camp being worthy?
RNH, Hall & Fowler are on another level to Etem. As I said before they were as impressive at 17 as Etem is at 19. DSP started out on the 3rd/4th lines and barely looked like he belonged this season until recently.
As for the stats, check who the last two goal scorers to score 60 at the WHL level were. Then look at where they're playing today. I'm not at all saying Etem will bust like they did but it shows how useful juniors production is in projecting NHL talent.
Stop bringing up Beleskey and Blake, I already said I don't want Blake or Beleskey on the top line. Nor do I want Etem there. And finishing isn't just as magical as getting the perfect pass from Getzlaf or Perry and potting it home, he has to go to the dirty areas, cycle the puck and fight battles against the best defensemen the NHL has to offer. Right now, we have no idea if he can do that.
Unfortunately Ryan is the only proven commodity we have to put with Getzlaf and Perry who is signed for next season. I really hope some holes are filled by FA/trades next year instead of handing rookies positions because of what they've achieved at lower levels. I think you can assume one of them can take a spot on the second line alongside Ryan but assuming you're going to fill multiple holes with inexperienced players is a recipe for failure.
You responded to me. I dont know what the hell you said earlier in this thread.
Junior level of play is either more challenging or equal challenging to NCAA hockey, mainly due to gpa being a requirement. Regardless of age its pro level hockey.... And most NHL players come out of the junior ranks.... So your age difference doesn't really matter.
But that's beside the point.... The poster is saying he has done nothing to prove he is ready for the NHL. But at the same time
Neither has any NCAA Prospect who is recently signed and are currently playing right now.
The WHL is not pro level hockey. It's a significant step below pro level hockey. However, it is a good developmental league to prepare players for pro level hockey.
As for the difference between the NCAA and the Juniors, the biggest difference(in this context) is that you're going to be playing against adults in the NCAA. Or, at least, closer to adults than you would in the Juniors. Players are more physically mature in the NCAA, and there are fewer examples of the "men vs. boys" scenario because the gap is going to be smaller. The difference between a 19 year old and a 16 year old is huge. The difference between a 19 year old and a 21 year old is quite a bit smaller.
The WHL is not pro level hockey. It's a significant step below pro level hockey. However, it is a good developmental league to prepare players for pro level hockey.
As for the difference between the NCAA and the Juniors, the biggest difference(in this context) is that you're going to be playing against adults in the NCAA. Or, at least, closer to adults than you would in the Juniors. Players are more physically mature in the NCAA, and there are fewer examples of the "men vs. boys" scenario because the gap is going to be smaller. The difference between a 19 year old and a 16 year old is huge. The difference between a 19 year old and a 21 year old is quite a bit smaller.
And it's not just physical development. The average skill level in the minors is significantly higher than it is in Juniors or Division I.
This is a argument that would take ages to decide. You didn't include my full post nor my most important point. The poster has said he has done nothing to prove he is worthy of a roster spot.
With that being said, the NCAA players who just signed and are playing right now, RNH, Hall, Fowler, DSP, etc had no higher level of hockey besides juniors or college. So to make this statement is not even worth discussing cause it doesn't make sense.
And don't use stats to back up this point because He is leading the WHL and the entire CHL in goals this season.... So yes it gets you nowhere.
Players like Hall, RNH, and Fowler are the exception. And even as exceptions, it's still plainly obvious with all three of them that they still need to mature physically. They need to get stronger and grow into their bodies a bit more. The reason they can handle it in the NHL right now is because they have extremely high skill levels.
DSP is in a different boat, but he seems to be gifted in the strength department(and he still looks like he struggles at time ).
So has anyone seen the goals? Are they just more "I'm faster than the kids I'm playing" goals or....?
He needs to show more than the ability to bully children before he gets pencilled in on the 1st line. It's a good first step, but he needs to show the ability to at least bully young adults first before we go berserk about him.
That said, kudos to the kid for tearing it up right now
I watched them all. He creates odd man breaks and turnovers with his speed shorthanded and at even strength. On the PP, he constantly moves, never stands still and finds the right spots to hit to accept passes, in a position to score goals.
His talent is translateable, i am shocked he has so many critics here, he will be a shorthanded beast in the NHL and should have no problem producing with good linemates. His speed is going to be elite level in the pro's, the first step is very explosive I can't wait for him to make it.
Ya why give any of our top prospects a shot next season when they arent proven at all. Let's keep rotating those proven first line players like Blake, Hagman and Beleskey. I find it hilarious that people are so uncomfortable with any of our young kids playing top 6 roles but have no problem with the 3 previously mentioned wastes of a roster spot in there night in and night out.
Im with you
if the ducks wanna keep being cheap
then the kids need to play.
Palmieri should absolutely be a lock next year let's stop plugging in middling vets who belong in bottom 6 roles
Beleskey IS why people are leery of Etem in the top 6. He had 41 G 49A 90P in 62 games his last year in the OHL. Look how well that's translated. And his game wasn't based on being faster than everyone. Etem looked clueless in preseason last fall when he couldn't just outskate people.
NHL players >>>>>>WHL Players.
For the record I'll be thrilled to eat my words if he can prove me wrong.
Beleskey was never projected to be a top 6 player and look at the year Etem just had vs him. Beleskey couldn't score 60 goals playing with 14 year olds right now
