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What year of rebuild do you consider this?

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Old
03-26-2012, 07:21 AM
  #1
Leafsman
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What year of rebuild do you consider this?

Just a good point that came up in another thread?

Many people are getting upset as Burke is in his 4 year of this rebuild and the team has not seen success. Many people quote him saying he is not interested in a 5 year rebuild and didn't need 5 years in Anaheim. Listening, I believe this is a big factor in why so many are upset as they believe they were made a promise that was not fulfilled.


My question is though has it been 4 years????????????????

Burke was hired on November 29, 2008 during the 08/09 season.

My belief is a GM shoudl have a FA market, offseason and draft in order to be responsible for the season ahead. A GM can't be handed a team and expected to change it mid-season. True he had December, JAnuary and the trade deadline but:

- How many trades happen in December and January really?
- Burke needed time to assess what he had?
- We were handcuffed with big contracts and NTC's?

The 08/09 season I believe is on Fletcher, not Burke!

Woudl you pin the 11/12 season on Randy Carlyle or Wilson?

CLARIFICATION:I'm positive very few people woudld pin the blame on Carlyle, yet a lot of people turn around and blame Burke????? Kinda hypocritical!


Last edited by Leafsman: 03-26-2012 at 09:07 AM.
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03-26-2012, 08:16 AM
  #2
tony135420
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Year two. Burke calls a mulligan for the other years. Prospect depth is strongest it's ever been, a more structured coaching style and another high draft pick on the way. Still so many holes though. Top6, bottom 6, defense and goaltending. It's gonna be a bumpy ride! And I'll be screaming all the way.

Don't think blaming Carlyle is fair. Give the players a full season to learn the system before throwing the coach any blame.

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03-26-2012, 08:20 AM
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Cappayne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
The 08/09 season I believe is on Fletcher, not Burke!

Woudl you pin the 11/12 season on Rany Carlyle or Wilson?
The Leafs played 60 games in 08-09 under Burke. The Leafs play(ed) 18 games in 11-12 under Carlyle.

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03-26-2012, 08:22 AM
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Leafsman
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Originally Posted by tony135420 View Post
Year two. Burke calls a mulligan for the other years. Prospect depth is strongest it's ever been, a more structured coaching style and another high draft pick on the way. Still so many holes though. Top6, bottom 6, defense and goaltending. It's gonna be a bumpy ride! And I'll be screaming all the way.

Don't think blaming Carlyle is fair. Give the players a full season to learn the system before throwing the coach any blame.
I was kind of using that as a comparison.

Many people wouldn't pin this season on Carlyle, yet pin the 08/09 season on Burke.

I believe the rebuild started in the summer of 09!

I also belive the biggest mistake was hiring Wilson before Burke! Burke came in to a team that started before him! Hired Wilson, drafted Schenn and kept Schenn up. Those decisions shoudlhave been left to Burke, except drafting Luke SChenn who I belive Burke would've drafted anyway!

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03-26-2012, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Cappayne View Post
The Leafs played 60 games in 08-09 under Burke. The Leafs play(ed) 18 games in 11-12 under Carlyle.
Subtract the Christmas trade freeze and the games after the trade deadline.

Plus the jobo f a GM is far different than the job of a coach! The GM can't come in from day one and change the team.

There was very little assets when Burke got here and much of teh assets that were here refused to waive NTC's.

At best I would say it's been 3 years with an EXTENDED evaluation time!

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03-26-2012, 08:31 AM
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was it ever a rebuild, at any point in time, during burke's tenure? i hadn't heard any talk about rebuilds until the last few weeks of this season. i think it's mostly a lot of rewriting history to make these last few disasterous years not seem so bad when you try to gift-wrap it into a context of a "rebuild".

very few things burke has done in the last 4 has been consistent with a rebuild. this smells an awful like like a burke apologist thread.

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Old
03-26-2012, 08:38 AM
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We're blaming Carlyle already?

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03-26-2012, 08:40 AM
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tony135420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
I was kind of using that as a comparison.

Many people wouldn't pin this season on Carlyle, yet pin the 08/09 season on Burke.

I believe the rebuild started in the summer of 09!

I also belive the biggest mistake was hiring Wilson before Burke! Burke came in to a team that started before him! Hired Wilson, drafted Schenn and kept Schenn up. Those decisions shoudlhave been left to Burke, except drafting Luke SChenn who I belive Burke would've drafted anyway!
Fair enough. Maybe blame was too strong a word

Agree on all accounts, other than the rebuild starting in 09. The only reason I think this rebuild stalled for the last couple of years, was Wilson. I don't think he's a bad coach, just a bad coach for the rebuilding Leafs. Coached the team like an All-Star team, developed some bad habits in young players in turn leaving Carlyle to rebuild their confidence. It's gonna be a while longer for sure before the Leafs become a play-off threat.

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Old
03-26-2012, 08:53 AM
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SexyJoffreyLupul
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burke didnt need 5 years for the ducks because getzlaff, perry and j.s. giguere where already there. he just needed to bring a strong defensive core to supplement the potent offense and excellent goaltending. the toronto rebuild is more like the canucks rebuild, but with more trades and FA signings for young prospects with an even worse existing roster than the canucks.

if we were to compare burkes tenure in toronto to the canucks, i'd say he was supposed to make the playoffs this year, and get ***** in the first round. same goes for next year, **** in the first round. in 2 years we'll be able to win a playoff series, and maybe challenge for conference title. i don't think he has failed at his job yet, but if we don't make the playoffs next year, then there would be legitimate reasons for calling for his job, based on his past results with other teams

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03-26-2012, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ReimerForPM View Post
We're blaming Carlyle already?
with the denizens of LeafLand it was bound to happen

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03-26-2012, 09:02 AM
  #11
Leafsman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReimerForPM View Post
We're blaming Carlyle already?
Quote:
Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
with the denizens of LeafLand it was bound to happen
No one blamed Carlyle as I pointed out in like the 4th post.

It was mainly a comparison of circumstances!

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03-26-2012, 09:02 AM
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You can't even try to pin this season on Carlyle. At all. So it's not that even in the slightest. It's a combination of bad signings, goaltending and just lack of execution for the failures the Leafs have endured.

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03-26-2012, 09:06 AM
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Leafsman
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Originally Posted by KingBuzzo View Post
You can't even try to pin this season on Carlyle. At all. So it's not that even in the slightest. It's a combination of bad signings, goaltending and just lack of execution for the failures the Leafs have endured.
So why is the 08/09 season pinned on Burke?

Was he not left with bad signings and poor goaltending???

Had Burke had more options come TDD '09 I woudl consider it diiferently but all his assets were tied up with NTC's and he really had his options limited!

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03-26-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
So why is the 08/09 season pinned on Burke?

Was he not left with bad signings and poor goaltending???

Had Burke had more options come TDD '09 I woudl consider it diiferently but all his assets were tied up with NTC's and he really had his options limited!

Burke still has bad signings and poor goaltending.

Burke stated that he wasn't interested in a rebuild do why keep stating there is one ongoing?

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03-26-2012, 09:18 AM
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We are just finishing year 3.

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03-26-2012, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Burke still has bad signings and poor goaltending.

Burke stated that he wasn't interested in a rebuild do why keep stating there is one ongoing?
Because there is. It never stopped.

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03-26-2012, 09:26 AM
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03-26-2012, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
So why is the 08/09 season pinned on Burke?

Was he not left with bad signings and poor goaltending???

Had Burke had more options come TDD '09 I woudl consider it diiferently but all his assets were tied up with NTC's and he really had his options limited!
The 2008 season isn't totally on Burke. He cleared up what he could and stocked the cupboard decently with good prospects. He was left with a lot of bad contracts and bad goaltending, but look at us now. Has that changed?

When your GM states he's not interested in a full rebuild, he better damn well do what he promises us fans and give us a team fit for the playoffs. It hasn't happened yet.

I still support Burke, but if he doesn't change this lineup next year than I want someone else at the helm. There's zero excuses for the Leafs to be the only team who hasn't made the playoffs since the lockout now with Florida almost getting there this year. Zero excuses.

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03-26-2012, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
Because there is. It never stopped.
Burke didn't tear it down and build from the draft. He said he wasn't interested in that approach. He said he doesn't want to wait three years for a pick to be ready.

He retooled and it didn't work. Trading lottery picks for immediate help is not a rebuild. Calling building rebuilding is letting Burke off the hook and I can't see why Burke moves and failures are now apologized for under the guise of a rebuild and these results were expected. That is simply not true at all.

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03-26-2012, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Burke still has bad signings and poor goaltending.

Burke stated that he wasn't interested in a rebuild do why keep stating there is one ongoing?

Exactly.

Burke has his own bad goaltending in place now and his own bad contracts now. That is the only difference.

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03-26-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by dystemper View Post
was it ever a rebuild, at any point in time, during burke's tenure? i hadn't heard any talk about rebuilds until the last few weeks of this season. i think it's mostly a lot of rewriting history to make these last few disasterous years not seem so bad when you try to gift-wrap it into a context of a "rebuild".

very few things burke has done in the last 4 has been consistent with a rebuild. this smells an awful like like a burke apologist thread.
Literally the entire team was shipped out and they became one of the youngest teams in the league, while drastically improving their prospect pool. In what world is that not a rebuild?

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03-26-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Burke didn't tear it down and build from the draft. He said he wasn't interested in that approach. He said he doesn't want to wait three years for a pick to be ready.

He retooled and it didn't work. Trading lottery picks for immediate help is not a rebuild. Calling building rebuilding is letting Burke off the hook and I can't see why Burke moves and failures are now apologized for under the guise of a rebuild and these results were expected. That is simply not true at all.

He is re-building, kind of easy to see that.

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03-26-2012, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by iiuh View Post
Literally the entire team was shipped out and they became one of the youngest teams in the league, while drastically improving their prospect pool. In what world is that not a rebuild?
It is a re-build, some people just like to pretend they don't understand there is one so they can push their agenda. Welcome to the forum.

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03-26-2012, 09:40 AM
  #24
jughead42
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We are on year 45 of our rebuild.

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03-26-2012, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Burke still has bad signings and poor goaltending.

Burke stated that he wasn't interested in a rebuild do why keep stating there is one ongoing?
You continue to try an use this argument and regularly post Burke's quote. Yet you consistently miss what was being said. Burke stated he was not interested in rebuilding like some other teams have done. It's a very important distinction.

For your next argument, yes, it is taking longer than he may have originally thought. Sometimes things don't fall into place exactly as we'd hoped, that's just the way it is.

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