Guns

Ugmo · 04-08-2012, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1

You guys are really amusing with your use of the word liberal.

Both the Republican and Democrat parties are liberal political parties. Hell, I would even go to say that the Republican party is staunchly liberal, considering their absolute adherence to the public/private dichotomy and constitutionalism.

Is "liberal" used differently in Canada? I know it is in Germany. The liberal party (FDP) is very pro business. In the U.S. it mostly refers to social issues and tax/spending issues.

buddahsmoka1 · 04-08-2012, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugmo

Is "liberal" used differently in Canada? I know it is in Germany. The liberal party (FDP) is very pro business. In the U.S. it mostly refers to social issues and tax/spending issues.

No, it shouldn't be used differently anywhere. Liberal is the base word of liberalism. Which is a political theory that mostly came out of the enlightenment period.

The FDP in Germany is a liberal party. As is the Liberal Party of Canada (as is the Tories, Bloc Quebecois and the NDP) and the Democrat and Republican Parties of the USA. Pretty much all major parties in North America are strongly tied to liberalism.

To use liberal as a marking of someone on the left-side of the spectrum is using it completely wrongly. Using it in any shape or form regarding tax/spending issues is completely asinine, it literally has nothing to do with either of those things.

Dojji* · 04-08-2012, 01:00 PM

Than it ain't the conservatives misusing the term.

Leftists coopted the term "liberal" so as to avoid copping to the term "leftist."

buddahsmoka1 · 04-08-2012, 02:26 PM

I have seen both sides misuse it. I think it is more to do with lack of education/ignorance of political ideology than anything.

Concordski · 04-08-2012, 04:28 PM

I call myself a Conservative Social Democrat and Liberal interchangably, though I puke a bit inside when I say Liberal.

Ugmo · 04-08-2012, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dojji

Than it ain't the conservatives misusing the term.

Leftists coopted the term "liberal" so as to avoid copping to the term "leftist."

You'll have to inform Mensa candidate SouthernHab of this fact, as he appears to use the term quite, ahem, liberally.

Personally I don't care what the original meaning was. In the U.S. in 2012, the terms liberal and conservative are widely used to mean left-wing and right-wing, by pretty much everyone. So I'm gonna keep on referring to myself as liberal.

"Leftist" is retarded. That sounds like a Republican insult more than anything else.

Edit: liberal [ˈlɪbərəl ˈlɪbrəl]
adj
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) relating to or having social and political views that favour progress and reform

Not sure how that doesn't refer to the left wing of the Democratic Party.

XX · 04-09-2012, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugmo

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5]with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]
---------------------------------------------------------

105,668 in 2000. Happy now? Or are you still going to be a dick about this?

I thought you were worth talking with, until this. We're counting suicides now? Are you serious? Wikipedia? Let me break this down for you like you're 5.

Quote:

In 2010, in incidents of murder for which the relationships of murder victims and offenders were known, 53.0 percent were killed by someone they knew (acquaintance, neighbor, friend, boyfriend, etc.); 24.8 percent of victims were slain by family members.

53% of all murders involve someone you know. Not random gun violence, which is what we care about when we are talking about legislation.

There were 12,996 murders in 2010, a full third of which don't even involve a firearm. In 2010, 278 people were justifiably killed in defense by a citizen. Around 850 were directly related to gangs. Hmm, we're down to less than 8,000 murders by firearms each year. That's 2.7 per 100,000. Since 1991, the violent crime rate has been almost cut in half. Since 2000 (pay attention Wikipedia boy), it's gone down roughly 20%. Blacks represent roughly 12.6% of the population (US Census bureau) yet represent ~half of all murder victims. Of known data and of murder offenders, blacks represent a disproportionate amount with 2,950 offenses vs 3,062 for Whites. Of available historical data, a noted spike in violent crime rate can be seen during the crack epidemic from the early 80s to early 90s. Using location based per capita rates, the two highest are Philly and Baltimore; predominantly black (>40%) cities. '

Source: FBI CRIME STATISTICS
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...dedoffensemain

All this fits in perfectly with your concessions (via Switzerland and ghettos) that it's really not about the guns. It's about quality of life. That's no secret to anyone who lives in or near some of these areas of blight. If anything, America has an inner city black-on-black crime problem. Seeing as I'm from Detroit, that's no shocker for me. Really, it's not that complicated. Well, I suppose for you it is. You seem to believe that America is royally screwed and we live in constant fear for our lives because of guns. That's just not the case. Anyways, thanks for leaving the states. One less person quoting Wikipedia from atop their high horse, proclaiming how god awful the United States is. It's been fun, despite you bringing nothing to the table (like trying to use suicides as a justification for gun control).

Dojji* · 04-09-2012, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1

I have seen both sides misuse it. I think it is more to do with lack of education/ignorance of political ideology than anything.

Really? Because I think it had more to do with the left wing of American politics distancing itself from the allegedly leftist Soviet bloc during the Cold War just as far and just as fast as they could. The Soviets were more authoritarian than leftist, and barely had anything more to do with the American left than the Nazis had with the American right, but left wing politics still got associated with the "second world" for decades.

If there's a time to mangle the language, doing it to prevent an absolutely insane radical reinterpretation of your political views from being associated with your own to the detriment of your cause is probably that time.