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Will it take 1 or 2(or 3) years to rebuild?

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Old
03-30-2012, 08:14 PM
  #101
Lafleurs Guy
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If Markov plays 70 games and we are relatively healthy next season we're in the playoffs.
That's a huge IF. And IF we're counting on Markov as our strategy for getting in, then the new GM needs his head examined. We can count on Markov for zero next year. Anything he gives us is a bonus. And if he plays well, we should actually trade him and start playing our younger players. We aren't winning a cup with Markov and that's all we should care about. Get a return on him and start rebuilding.

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03-30-2012, 08:16 PM
  #102
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How much weight do you guys put on AHL team success. Speaking about Brisebrois specifically, in every article about him they mention his relative success with Hamilton, and Norfolk, but how much work is he actually doing in regards to that actual GM for those franchises?

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03-30-2012, 08:54 PM
  #103
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I wish the Habs had a little more of a foundation to rebuild on.

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03-30-2012, 09:10 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
when i heard yesterday the "re building" of the Montreal Canadiens, i felt sick cause i heard voices of 5 year plan in my head gain...lol


Oh well , Nathan MacKinnon is as worse as it can get, so i feel a little better.
We'd need to be extremely lucky to get MacKinnon. At best we have 50% chance if we finish last (which is, needless to be said, highly unlikely), at worst we draft out of the top5 otherwise its around 10-15%.

The Habs have been abnormally unlucky this year, it would be surprising even with a very crappy off season that we finish worse than 10 or 11th place in the East next year. We can definitely make the playoffs next year with a good coach and some good roster tweaks.

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03-30-2012, 09:26 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Flyers were really aggresive, they traded for Hartnell and Timonen before July 1st and signed both, then signed Briere. If the Habs want to rebound that fast, they will need to make big moves this off season and with the names out there not sure it's possible
It's possible, the fans just don't want to hear their players being traded. We need to probably overpay for the player we want. As long as you perform with what you want. and you are developing at a good pace: you're good.

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03-30-2012, 11:43 PM
  #106
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too many weaknesses on this team

Habs are at least two to three years away from having a shot at being a top ten team in the NHL. Too many weaknesses to address in less than that time span:

1. Too soft at center. Pleks, Desharnais, Eller and White are not gonna cut it. Eller is a 3rd line center at best. Pleks and Desharnais as 1, 2 are too similar. Two of these 4 centers will not be Habs by the end of next year. New GM will have to work some magic at the center position.

2. Bottom 6 fowards also need some added muscle and skill. Not easy players to find and not much in the prospect pipeline either.

3. Dmen corps needs beefing up as well. We have some solid pieces in Subban, Georges, Markov and Emelin. But they will need to be complemented with a couple of physical big Dmen. Forget Diaz, Webber, Campoli... not enough grit.

4. Cap Space needs to be cleared up. Gomez shipped to AHL. Kaberle traded to whichever teams pro scouting hasn't watched Kaberle play in 3 years.

The new GM needs to address these four issues, to some extent, next year and the year after and give our prospect crop a chance to mature in the AHL and be ready to make an impact in the NHL.

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03-31-2012, 12:18 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
Habs are at least two to three years away from having a shot at being a top ten team in the NHL. Too many weaknesses to address in less than that time span:

1. Too soft at center. Pleks, Desharnais, Eller and White are not gonna cut it. Eller is a 3rd line center at best. Pleks and Desharnais as 1, 2 are too similar. Two of these 4 centers will not be Habs by the end of next year. New GM will have to work some magic at the center position.

2. Bottom 6 fowards also need some added muscle and skill. Not easy players to find and not much in the prospect pipeline either.

3. Dmen corps needs beefing up as well. We have some solid pieces in Subban, Georges, Markov and Emelin. But they will need to be complemented with a couple of physical big Dmen. Forget Diaz, Webber, Campoli... not enough grit.

4. Cap Space needs to be cleared up. Gomez shipped to AHL. Kaberle traded to whichever teams pro scouting hasn't watched Kaberle play in 3 years.

The new GM needs to address these four issues, to some extent, next year and the year after and give our prospect crop a chance to mature in the AHL and be ready to make an impact in the NHL.
I hope you're not serious, at best? He is 22 years old playing with mike blunden on a grinding 3rd line for god's sake. If you expect him to produce more, play him with players equivalent or better to his skills. Very few people expected Desharnais to have this good of a season, but hey,look at that give him good wingers, put him in the top 6 and give him PP time and he has done very well.

If we keep eller in the bottom 6 without PP and with bad scoring wingers, it will be very difficult for him to develop.

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03-31-2012, 06:43 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
There's too much variables to put a realistic estimate on the duration of our current rebuild (I personally think we're in a retooling phase not rebuilding one).
retool what

total gut -rebuild , we have a bout 5-7 pieces worth keeping

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03-31-2012, 06:49 AM
  #109
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Depends if you're talking about competing or contending.Right moves and no major injuries next season we could compete,contending you're looking at 3-5 years,IMHO.

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03-31-2012, 07:34 AM
  #110
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Other than your take on eller, i agree 100%. Needs a couple big, rough dmen.

A fighter that can chip in 10 plus goals would be nice too. Blunden? Staubitz? I love staubitz but will he ever score a goal?





QUOTE=WakeUpNHL;47023377]Habs are at least two to three years away from having a shot at being a top ten team in the NHL. Too many weaknesses to address in less than that time span:

1. Too soft at center. Pleks, Desharnais, Eller and White are not gonna cut it. Eller is a 3rd line center at best. Pleks and Desharnais as 1, 2 are too similar. Two of these 4 centers will not be Habs by the end of next year. New GM will have to work some magic at the center position.

2. Bottom 6 fowards also need some added muscle and skill. Not easy players to find and not much in the prospect pipeline either.

3. Dmen corps needs beefing up as well. We have some solid pieces in Subban, Georges, Markov and Emelin. But they will need to be complemented with a couple of physical big Dmen. Forget Diaz, Webber, Campoli... not enough grit.

4. Cap Space needs to be cleared up. Gomez shipped to AHL. Kaberle traded to whichever teams pro scouting hasn't watched Kaberle play in 3 years.

The new GM needs to address these four issues, to some extent, next year and the year after and give our prospect crop a chance to mature in the AHL and be ready to make an impact in the NHL.[/QUOTE]

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Old
04-01-2012, 07:42 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by angry pirate View Post
We have a couple of studs in the system in Tinordi and Beaulieu, and as long as our pick this year works than I expect to be contending for the division in 2013/14.

For a top prospect I'd say a minimum one year at AHL level and two years at NHL level until they're a factor. The above crop of prospects haven't made Hamilton yet.

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04-01-2012, 08:08 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
Habs are at least two to three years away from having a shot at being a top ten team in the NHL. Too many weaknesses to address in less than that time span:

1. Too soft at center. Pleks, Desharnais, Eller and White are not gonna cut it. Eller is a 3rd line center at best. Pleks and Desharnais as 1, 2 are too similar. Two of these 4 centers will not be Habs by the end of next year. New GM will have to work some magic at the center position.

2. Bottom 6 fowards also need some added muscle and skill. Not easy players to find and not much in the prospect pipeline either.

3. Dmen corps needs beefing up as well. We have some solid pieces in Subban, Georges, Markov and Emelin. But they will need to be complemented with a couple of physical big Dmen. Forget Diaz, Webber, Campoli... not enough grit.

4. Cap Space needs to be cleared up. Gomez shipped to AHL. Kaberle traded to whichever teams pro scouting hasn't watched Kaberle play in 3 years.

The new GM needs to address these four issues, to some extent, next year and the year after and give our prospect crop a chance to mature in the AHL and be ready to make an impact in the NHL.
1-not sure what you mean by too "soft" at center. It's not a position where you stick bangers and scrappers, you need skill and guys that can do a lot of things(2 way play, special teams etc). Sure it would be nice to add a Malkin but they don't grow on trees. I prefer our top 3 than moving one and getting some big dumb schmuck like Boyle or Hanzal. Eller has very good size and he is still developping, 16 goals in a season where he started wirth no camp or preseason is pretty good.

2-what do you consider Blunden Staubitz Moen Eller White? Plus Conboy Schultz Bournival? I don't think the bottom 6 is in bad shape, maybe add a good defensive center that can chip in 20-30 points(Pahlsson Gaustad etc). Retaining Moen should be a priority.

3-I agree we need a big stay at home, but moving out all the puck movers would be dumb. we also have Emelin who is a big banger. Keep Diaz and weber as #6-7, good cheap depth.

4-I agree on Gomez. As far as Kaberle, you move him if Markov can stay healthy and has no setbacks by mid summer.

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04-01-2012, 08:28 AM
  #113
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At the very least 2 years if they want to do a decent job. If they want to just patch holes and try to do what Gainey and Gauthier did again, a little less time short term to make the playoffs but long term to have a good team like 6+ years. And then if the next management team ****s up again...

Yeah, I just don't have much hope until we actually see a real rebuild. Not a complete blow up of the team, but then, it's already been done during the season. We have so much money going to players that don't deserve it right now; like others have pointed out, it will take a long time to clear this mess up.

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04-01-2012, 08:39 AM
  #114
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I hope you're not serious, at best? He is 22 years old playing with mike blunden on a grinding 3rd line for god's sake. If you expect him to produce more, play him with players equivalent or better to his skills. Very few people expected Desharnais to have this good of a season, but hey,look at that give him good wingers, put him in the top 6 and give him PP time and he has done very well.

If we keep eller in the bottom 6 without PP and with bad scoring wingers, it will be very difficult for him to develop.

At this point in time, Lars is a 3rd line center. Do you replace Pleks or DD with him? No. Also, DD was pretty effective with crap wingers last year. Lars needs to be better if he wants to jump into the top 6. Stop taking bad penalties, start using his linemates more and start scoring more. He has the potential to be a top 6 center but I think next year he's gotta bring it.

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04-01-2012, 09:08 AM
  #115
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At this point in time, Lars is a 3rd line center. Do you replace Pleks or DD with him? No. Also, DD was pretty effective with crap wingers last year. Lars needs to be better if he wants to jump into the top 6. Stop taking bad penalties, start using his linemates more and start scoring more. He has the potential to be a top 6 center but I think next year he's gotta bring it.
Huh?

How was DD effective with poor wingers last year?

He was 4-10-14 in 43 games 5 on 5. This year Eller is 14-11-25 in 76 games without his 3 PP points(he's barely played on the PP).

DD went 4-4-8 on the PP but that would be with the best players on the team on a PP that was doing well.

I agree Eller needs to cut down the penalities, I would like to see him a bit more patient with the puck, at times he rushes everything to the net.

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04-01-2012, 09:15 AM
  #116
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Huh?

How was DD effective with poor wingers last year?

He was 4-10-14 in 43 games 5 on 5. This year Eller is 14-11-25 in 76 games without his 3 PP points(he's barely played on the PP).

DD went 4-4-8 on the PP but that would be with the best players on the team on a PP that was doing well.

I agree Eller needs to cut down the penalities, I would like to see him a bit more patient with the puck, at times he rushes everything to the net.
And who were their linemates?...could you include that too?...and a breakdown of their points with each line? Also, why didn't you include icetime? Is it cuz Eller got more?

Get back to me on that.

K thnx

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04-01-2012, 10:08 AM
  #117
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That's a huge IF. And IF we're counting on Markov as our strategy for getting in, then the new GM needs his head examined. We can count on Markov for zero next year. Anything he gives us is a bonus. And if he plays well, we should actually trade him and start playing our younger players. We aren't winning a cup with Markov and that's all we should care about. Get a return on him and start rebuilding.
You think trading Markov will propel the Habs forward? And you think the quantity and quality "our younger players" is sufficient? It seems unlikely that you looked at the rosters of other teams. Final grade of your suggested solution: D minus, and I'm being charitable.

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04-01-2012, 10:23 AM
  #118
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What do we need to rebuild exactly? All of our best pieces are young and performing just fine. We need coaching and maybe a FA or prospect to bust onto the scene. No big deal.
In my book we should probably slash the whole 2nd, 3rd and 4th line.

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04-01-2012, 10:36 AM
  #119
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I laugh when fans pencil the names of players on other teams into their phantom lineups. I count on the next GM to practice the art of the do-able. I've observed how Chiarelli assembled a Cup team incrementally. He picked up Peverley, Kelly, Horton, Ryder, and even Pouliot while giving way little or nothing in exchange. His only stroke of good luck was in fleecing an impulsive Burke in the Kessel trade, which strengthened the Bruins while not elevating the Leafs. Glen Sather of all people (after years of blundering) picked up Gaborik, Richards, McDonagh, and other useful players while unloading Gomez. The Blues played their cards vey well (there was far more to it than acquiring Halak, because he isn't even their first string goaltender). Nashville helped themselves enormously by acquiring the Kostitsyn brothers for next to nothing. Meanwhile, the dum-dums on this site mouth the names of Parise, Suter, and others who have no intention of signing with the Habs.

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04-01-2012, 10:39 AM
  #120
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1-not sure what you mean by too "soft" at center. It's not a position where you stick bangers and scrappers, you need skill and guys that can do a lot of things(2 way play, special teams etc). Sure it would be nice to add a Malkin but they don't grow on trees. I prefer our top 3 than moving one and getting some big dumb schmuck like Boyle or Hanzal. Eller has very good size and he is still developping, 16 goals in a season where he started wirth no camp or preseason is pretty good.

2-what do you consider Blunden Staubitz Moen Eller White? Plus Conboy Schultz Bournival? I don't think the bottom 6 is in bad shape, maybe add a good defensive center that can chip in 20-30 points(Pahlsson Gaustad etc). Retaining Moen should be a priority.

3-I agree we need a big stay at home, but moving out all the puck movers would be dumb. we also have Emelin who is a big banger. Keep Diaz and weber as #6-7, good cheap depth.

4-I agree on Gomez. As far as Kaberle, you move him if Markov can stay healthy and has no setbacks by mid summer.
1- Agreed on most of what you said here but I think you might be underrating Boyle and Hanzal here, especially Hanzal who's a damn good two-way player. Boyle ain't a slouch there either, that guy takes a crazy amount of Dzone starts for the Rangers (Out of players with at least 40 games played, more than any player that isn't on Vancouver's 4th line) and he's managed to stay afloat in possession.

2- Blunden and Staubitz aren't exactly what I'd call NHL caliber players. Palushaj is easily better than those guys. White's a good 4th liner, Conboy and Schultz could become that too, but they're not there yet. Bournival has a higher ceiling than that but he'll need time in the AHL. Agreed that Gaustad or Pahlsson would be great, especially Pahlsson, Halpern could be good there too (is he a UFA? not sure?). I also hope we resign Moen. Darche should be kept too, even if it's just as a 13th F. Getting more good players should be higher on the list of priorities than getting grit. Getting a top 6 guy to get Bourque out of the tough minutes would be a better idea than signing a third line guy. Overall agree on your idea that getting bottom 6 help is easier than getting top 6 help.

3-If by "we need a big stay at home Dman" you mean "we need a good ES D who can play secondary toughs" than I agree. I think Diaz and Emelin would make a respectable third pairing next year if we can get a top 4 D this summer.

4- Agreed on that. Kaberle can rack up the points but he's not good at ES. Gomez is as good as gone next year.

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04-01-2012, 10:49 AM
  #121
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Also, DD was pretty effective with crap wingers last year.
I wouldn't call Pouliot crap. He's hugely inconsistant and he needs soft minutes to produce (wich is exactly what he got here when he was producing last year and what he's getting this year) but he tends to score at a respectable ES rate in those soft minutes. I didn't like his tendency to become a complete liability on the ice when he wasn't on (instead of just becoming invisible or something) but the guy can put up points on a soft minutes offensive 3rd/4th line. Not like DD got that much assists once Pouliot disapeared, that's pretty normal, just like Plek isn't getting magical assists for being good.

Pouliot was our 4th leading ES point getter last year (it was on butter soft minutes so I don't think it's as overall valuable as a guy who gets a couple of point less with defensive duties but still). He also lead the team in ES pts per minute of icetime.

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04-01-2012, 10:52 AM
  #122
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If this organization isn't willing to bury Gomez in the minors, then everything Molson said yesterday means absolutely nothing.
We can probably get away with just a retool (especially considering our goaltending is set for the next 10-15 years), but this is crucial. This is ownership's opportunity to show they're really devoted to winning.

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04-01-2012, 03:09 PM
  #123
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1-not sure what you mean by too "soft" at center. It's not a position where you stick bangers and scrappers, you need skill and guys that can do a lot of things(2 way play, special teams etc). Sure it would be nice to add a Malkin but they don't grow on trees. I prefer our top 3 than moving one and getting some big dumb schmuck like Boyle or Hanzal. Eller has very good size and he is still developping, 16 goals in a season where he started wirth no camp or preseason is pretty good.

2-what do you consider Blunden Staubitz Moen Eller White? Plus Conboy Schultz Bournival? I don't think the bottom 6 is in bad shape, maybe add a good defensive center that can chip in 20-30 points(Pahlsson Gaustad etc). Retaining Moen should be a priority.

3-I agree we need a big stay at home, but moving out all the puck movers would be dumb. we also have Emelin who is a big banger. Keep Diaz and weber as #6-7, good cheap depth.

4-I agree on Gomez. As far as Kaberle, you move him if Markov can stay healthy and has no setbacks by mid summer.
1. Out top two centers Pleks and DD are too similar. Not physical enough to take on the tougher teams in the EAST. One of them will be have to moved eventually... I think Pleks is the better number two center. DD's true value will not be known until he plays WITHOUT Cole and MaxPac.
As for Eller... great speed, nice size and a big hearth, I just find he lacks finish and is a little slow on reaction time. Hence a good third liner a la Higgins.

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04-01-2012, 03:15 PM
  #124
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We can probably get away with just a retool (especially considering our goaltending is set for the next 10-15 years), but this is crucial. This is ownership's opportunity to show they're really devoted to winning.
If history proves anything, Goaltending is NOT set. We really need to draft high-end goaltenders soon. What if Price gets hurt? What if the crowd gets to him during a bad period? Our situation in goal is just barely ok in my book, counting on one guy is cool, but things can change fast.

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04-01-2012, 03:17 PM
  #125
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1-not sure what you mean by too "soft" at center. It's not a position where you stick bangers and scrappers, you need skill and guys that can do a lot of things(2 way play, special teams etc). Sure it would be nice to add a Malkin but they don't grow on trees. I prefer our top 3 than moving one and getting some big dumb schmuck like Boyle or Hanzal. Eller has very good size and he is still developping, 16 goals in a season where he started wirth no camp or preseason is pretty good.
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I prefer our top 3 than moving one and getting some big dumb schmuck like Boyle or Hanzal.
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
big dumb schmuck like Hanzal.
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big dumb schmuck like Hanzal.


We must be a great team to call one of the best shutdown guys in the league a big dumb schmuck.

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