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Defensive Prospect depth

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Old
11-23-2004, 06:47 PM
  #51
Predatore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
He's still only had 17 games experience. I wasn't questioning his play.
hehe, I did somehow read that as "really played well vs. pro..."

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Old
11-23-2004, 06:52 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritty
Top 10 easily? You guys have got to get off the Stars bandwagon and see the rest of the league.

Chicago
Nashville
Washington
Edmonton
Minnesota
Vancouver
Anaheim
San Jose
Ottawa
Toronto
NY Rangers
Pittsburgh
Atlanta
Tampa

There's 14 teams that I would rather have than the Stars. So the guy that said in the 15-20 range is bang on. That's not even considering players that are on the verge of being full time NHLers.
Nice list.

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Old
11-23-2004, 07:10 PM
  #53
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Yep, nice list. Thanks for giving Minnesota some props on defense .

Dallas has an okay group of defensemen. They were helped by getting Belle for Cash but, I think there are teams with better defensive prospects than Dallas, including Minnesota.

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Old
11-23-2004, 07:19 PM
  #54
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I can add some opinions of what I've seen of Daley and Jancevski. I've been to 4 games, and watched one tv game and listened to the rest on the radio. It's been brutal for the Dogs of late, losing 8 and having scored 3 goals in the last 3 games.

I won't make any Dallas fans happy but I'd take Jancevski over Daley. Daley is way more skilled, but I can not for the life of me figure out where his head is sometimes. He plays so much like Ron Hainsey, it's not even funny. Daley looks great skating the puck up ice, he is an outstanding skater and has impressive wheels. His shot I haven't noticed as being overly powerful, but he can move the puck well, and looks good on the PP. I wouldn't say he's a physical player, but he doesn't seem to back down or avoid the physical play. The problem is his mental and defensive game. Way way too many errors in his own end, and simple ones at that. Icing the puck on the PP, passing without looking to the other team, piniching in when all the forwards are already deep, and simply bad/costly turnovers. This weekend I was at 3 games and Daley helped lose one with Hainsey helping to lose another with piss poor turnovers that resulted in goals. I really like watching him skate, but his play in his own end is very questionable imo.

He did score a goal this weekend, his first of the year.

As for Jancevski, he's solid in his own end, and while not showing much of anything offensively he is physical and I noticed he always seems to stick up for his teammates when things get rough. I think he needs some work on his mobilty but overall he looks like a solid bottom pairing guy imo.

Again I only watched these guys live 4 times this year, and never really followed either before they were in Hamilton.

As for the other guys, I really wanted the Habs to get Fransson, he seemed like a good fit for us, and everything I read speaks highly of him. I can't say I really think too highly of Belle, although he skates well, in the little I've seen of him I wasn't very impressed but that doesnt mean anything. Nickerson is an interesting prospect as well, although I haven't seen him in the Q yet. And I thought it was a good move to get Ludwig's son from the Texas team, they seem to be producing some quality players.

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Old
11-23-2004, 07:58 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal
I can add some opinions of what I've seen of Daley and Jancevski. I've been to 4 games, and watched one tv game and listened to the rest on the radio. It's been brutal for the Dogs of late, losing 8 and having scored 3 goals in the last 3 games.

I won't make any Dallas fans happy but I'd take Jancevski over Daley. Daley is way more skilled, but I can not for the life of me figure out where his head is sometimes. He plays so much like Ron Hainsey, it's not even funny. Daley looks great skating the puck up ice, he is an outstanding skater and has impressive wheels. His shot I haven't noticed as being overly powerful, but he can move the puck well, and looks good on the PP. I wouldn't say he's a physical player, but he doesn't seem to back down or avoid the physical play. The problem is his mental and defensive game. Way way too many errors in his own end, and simple ones at that. Icing the puck on the PP, passing without looking to the other team, piniching in when all the forwards are already deep, and simply bad/costly turnovers. This weekend I was at 3 games and Daley helped lose one with Hainsey helping to lose another with piss poor turnovers that resulted in goals. I really like watching him skate, but his play in his own end is very questionable imo.
Something is just not right with that Hamilton team, as when Daley was up with the Stars last year, I didnt see him making any of the mistakes you mention, such as icing the puck on the PP, pinching, or passing without looking. Maybe you caught him at a bad time, or perhaps he is just trying too hard to create offense by himself, seeing as how they are really struggling to score. But lets also remember he's just 21. A lot of 21 year old defensemen make defensive mistakes.

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Old
11-23-2004, 08:03 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Matt Nickerson and Dan Jancevski are depth players, guys like Wade Belak, Eric Cairns, etc... they're big, can play physical and drop the gloves. But neither are great defensively nor do they have any offensive upside to be rated as safe bets in the #5/6 spot.
How often have you seen Nickerson?

Belak and Cairns are horrible comparisons. He's far more mobile and a much better skater than both. He may not have high offensive upside, but he does have some if you've ever seen him play, which I doubt based upon your comparisons. I'd say he's got the upside to be a solid #4 guy if he can settle down his temper and pick his spots better.

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Old
11-23-2004, 08:03 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17ster
Yeah, Chicago have been stocking up big. May backfire on them.
Top pairing defensemen garner the most in trades. The Hawks have 5 guys who could be #1 or #2 guys in the future IMO in Barker, Seabrook, Babchuk, Barinka, and possibly Vandermeer. Im not thrilled about our offense prospects, I only expect Yakubov to make an impact out of our top 3 Russian forwards, and even then I dont think we have a potential 1st liner in the bunch. But, I dont think it will be hard to fill the void of a 1st liner when we get this new CBA, Wirtz has been planning for this for a long time.

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Old
11-23-2004, 08:07 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBob
The Hawks have 5 guys who could possibly be #1 or #2 guys in the future IMO in Barker, Seabrook, Babchuk, Barinka, and possibly Vandermeer.
You'd be hard pressed to get anyone to agree with you on that.

Very few D prospects have #1 upside. Barker certainly does, and Babchuk might have top pairing upside, but that's debatable. Seabrook certainly has good upside, but not #1 or #2, possibly #3. As for Barinka, I haven't seen him, but if you honestly think Vandermeer has #1 or #2 upside, I don't know what to tell you.

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Old
11-23-2004, 08:19 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Bachul
Chicago and Nashville. The leaders of the pack. And it is pretty clear to me.
Good call George...Chicago has the best young defensive talent in the league in my opinion.

Anton Babchuck. Perhaps the best all around game=potential #1.

Cam Barker-Another Potential #1 Aggressive and offensive skills!

Brent Seabrooke-Solid defender and vastly underrated.

Michael Barinka-Talented guy who will benefit from talent around him.

Duncan Keith-Small but effective

Wisniewski and more. Assuming these guys develop they don't need to add anything to compete for best or very little. In my mind they sraft forwards till they drop! Their defense will make any forward look better.

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Old
11-23-2004, 10:33 PM
  #60
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Far from anywhere close to teams with amazing depth like Chicago, Nashville or Pittsburgh, Vancouver has managed to have quite an impressive depth of young defensemen. Especially of the offensive variety. Too bad they have nobody who can put the puck in the net. Maybe Koltsov can save us!


Koltsov
Mojzis (I cant believe we traded Leeb for him!)
Bieksa

Koltsov and Bieksa have played great so far for the moose, especially in the game's I caught. Koltsov has sublime skill. Still needs two more halves to a brain though. Bieksa has really turned heads thus far.

Skinner

Grot. Sadly, he is receiving no time this year in the RSL, and his development may be stinted.

Edler
Kankaapera

Gens has impressed so far in the NCAA

Shultz
McIver

No clear cut top pairing guys, unless, maybe, if some aliens gave Koltsov a brain transplant.

I wish we had Tyutin. Or Babchuk. Or Pitk... oh man.

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Old
11-23-2004, 10:35 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Something is just not right with that Hamilton team, as when Daley was up with the Stars last year, I didnt see him making any of the mistakes you mention, such as icing the puck on the PP, pinching, or passing without looking. Maybe you caught him at a bad time, or perhaps he is just trying too hard to create offense by himself, seeing as how they are really struggling to score. But lets also remember he's just 21. A lot of 21 year old defensemen make defensive mistakes.
What I saw of Daley is the same exact thing Montreal saw, he would fly up and down the ice, join the rush, and threw a big hit on Umberger, but he got caught out of position a lot, and really didn't do much once in the offensive zone besides lose the puck.

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Old
11-24-2004, 03:05 AM
  #62
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Just asking for opinions here, as I don't know all the other teams' defensive depth, but where do you all think the Kings rank with Gleason, Grebeshkov, and Petiot leading the way?

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Old
11-24-2004, 03:36 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
How often have you seen Nickerson?

Belak and Cairns are horrible comparisons. He's far more mobile and a much better skater than both. He may not have high offensive upside, but he does have some if you've ever seen him play, which I doubt based upon your comparisons. I'd say he's got the upside to be a solid #4 guy if he can settle down his temper and pick his spots better.
Haven't seen him play, but I'm thinking a #6/7 defenseman is a lot more realistic than a #4 guy for Matt Nickerson. From scouting reports and personal opinions I've read, he's extremely big and strong, plays on an edge as well as being a good defensive zone player because of that mean streak and size advantage. But there are #6/7 guys in the NHL with those qualities. You won't find many #4's in that mould on a good NHL club, usually those kind of defensemen are #6/7 guys.

As for the comparisons, I think it's safe to say comparing him to Wade Belak/Eric Cairns isn't that far off. They've all got size, play physical, and drop the gloves... but the only thing Nickerson has over them is time, as of right now it seems like he's going to play a similar role, atleast if he doesn't develop an offensive game... which he hasn't so far, 3 points in 19 QMJHL games.

Other comparisons in terms of what role they play would be:

Alex Henry
Todd Simpson
Garnet Exelby
Rob Davison
Shane Hnidy

You've got to look at what's currently in the league to say his upside is a #4, because he currently is a #6/7 if lucky, a utility guy... if he develops and reaches his full potential as well as improving his skating, he has #4/5 potential.

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Old
11-24-2004, 03:50 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
You'd be hard pressed to get anyone to agree with you on that.

Very few D prospects have #1 upside. Barker certainly does, and Babchuk might have top pairing upside, but that's debatable. Seabrook certainly has good upside, but not #1 or #2, possibly #3. As for Barinka, I haven't seen him, but if you honestly think Vandermeer has #1 or #2 upside, I don't know what to tell you.
Vandy surprised the hell out of everyone when we got him last year as he almost instantly started playing on our top pairing. He continues to turn heads in Norfolk, and he very well could surprise us yet again.

As for the others, it depends on your definition of a #1 or #2 guy. If by #1 you mean the select few such as Lidstrom or Niedermayer or Pronger, then no they dont quite have that upside. But the way I see it, every team has a #1 and #2 guy. And these guys have the upside to be top pairings on many teams.

Theres a darkhorse D project no one talks about much in Dustin Byfuglien. At about 270 pounds, I think he is going to surprise alot of people.

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Old
11-24-2004, 04:10 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
As for the comparisons, I think it's safe to say comparing him to Wade Belak/Eric Cairns isn't that far off. They've all got size, play physical, and drop the gloves... but the only thing Nickerson has over them is time, as of right now it seems like he's going to play a similar role, atleast if he doesn't develop an offensive game... which he hasn't so far, 3 points in 19 QMJHL games.
From his most recent scouting report:

Quote:
I talked with a few season tickets holders, and they were disapointed by Nickerson's play yesterday. When the team was down 3-2, the crowd seemed to rely on Nickerson's awakening to tie the game. It didn't happen, as he was apparently on a bad night. He was physical, but not agressive, as I previously hoped to see. On the season, he now has 1 goal, 1 assists, 53 PIM and -6 in 17 games with a bad team. As to why he hasn't been able to put up more points is a mystery to me, because he definitely have more offensive talent than his stats shows.
He has a lot more offensive skills than you think as Tornado fans were saying the bolded part over and over again last year as well.

Dan Jancevski was an AHL All-Star starter in 2003 when he played for the worst team in the AHL. That's quite an accomplishment, even though his upside is probably that of a hard nosed #5. He's just been very unfortunate that at the time of being NHL ready, the Stars were absolutely stacked on the blueline, andif there were a small opening, the Stars rather filled it up by a trade, picking up a veteran. He was expected to be a regular if this season would've gone underway.


Last edited by Ajacied: 11-24-2004 at 04:17 AM.
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Old
11-24-2004, 04:19 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott = Snott
From his most recent scouting report:

He has a lot more offensive skills than you think as Tornado fans were saying the bolded part over and over again last year as well.
I'm sure he had offensive skills playing with the Texas Tornado of the NAHL (?). The fact is he's now playing against the highest level of competition of his career and has 3 points in 19 games. He may have some hidden skills, but he's not producing whatsoever.

Quote:
Dan Jancevski was an AHL All-Star starter in 2003 when he played for the worst team in the AHL. That's quite an accomplishment, even though his upside is probably that of a hard nosed #5. He's just been very unfortunate that at the time of being NHL ready, the Stars were absolutely stacked on the blueline, and were a small opening, the Stars rather filled it up by a trade, picking up a veteran. He was expected to be a regular if this season would've gone underway.
Every organization has a player like Dan Jancevski... otherwise he's a nice depth player to have with some potential.

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Old
11-24-2004, 08:38 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borro
Good call George...Chicago has the best young defensive talent in the league in my opinion.

Anton Babchuck. Perhaps the best all around game=potential #1.

Cam Barker-Another Potential #1 Aggressive and offensive skills!

Brent Seabrooke-Solid defender and vastly underrated.

Michael Barinka-Talented guy who will benefit from talent around him.

Duncan Keith-Small but effective

Wisniewski and more. Assuming these guys develop they don't need to add anything to compete for best or very little. In my mind they sraft forwards till they drop! Their defense will make any forward look better.
Don't sell Nashville too short.

Suter is one of the top rated prospects period, a solid 2 way defender.

Klien is just a step below, a highly underrated two-way guy.

Shea Weber is even with Klien as far as rating prospects go. A huge hitter with a little offense too, Shea is big and mean.

Stehlik is a very big man that can skate and has a booming shot.

Hutchinson was called up last season and scored 4 goals in limited games with limited ice time. This guy has great puck skills, if he can learn how to play in his own zone, he'll be awesome.

Niskala is another Zidlicky or Timonen in the making.

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Old
11-24-2004, 09:06 AM
  #68
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Since Martin and Hale graduated NJ's depth looks weak.

DeMarchi
Kadeikin (Back in Russia)
Klimov
Mikhailishin
Eckford
Tarkir
Kesa


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Old
11-24-2004, 09:06 AM
  #69
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I'd go with Nashville, with Chicago right behind them. The Preds have a couple top pairing studs in Suter and Hamhuis, both IMO are guaranteed NHLers, and will be around a long time. I really like some of their other defenseman though, like Weber, Klein, Stehlik, Niskala, and Sulzer, all of which could be Top 4 guys. Weber and Niskala are two very underrated defensive prospects around here, I wouldn't be surprised if both of them are playing for the Preds once the lockout is over. Overall, I like the combo of size, toughness and skill the preds d shows which is evident in the majority of their defensive prospects.

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Old
11-24-2004, 09:13 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Since Martin and Hale graduated NJ's depth looks weak.

DeMarchi
Kadeikin (Back in Russia)
Klimov
Mikhailishin
Eckford
Tarkir
Kesa

Yeah, that's not too good.

Yikes.

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Old
11-24-2004, 09:23 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Since Martin and Hale graduated NJ's depth looks weak.

DeMarchi
Kadeikin (Back in Russia)
Klimov
Mikhailishin
Eckford
Tarkir
Kesa

yikes, not even a defense a mother could love.

But I'm sure those Jersey scouts will find more Martin/Hale types in the future.

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Old
11-24-2004, 09:36 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Since Martin and Hale graduated NJ's depth looks weak.

DeMarchi
Kadeikin (Back in Russia)
Klimov
Mikhailishin
Eckford
Tarkir
Kesa

I wouldn't even bother putting Mikhalishin on your list....he is absolutely terrible. His skating is atrocious, and every time he gets hit (He is 6'4 and 209), he falls down. Undrafted Megalinsky is ten times the player that Mikhalishin is.

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11-24-2004, 09:37 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Bachul
I wouldn't even bother putting Mikhalishin on your list....he is absolutely terrible. His skating is atrocious, and every time he gets hit (He is 6'4 and 209), he falls down. Undrafted Megalinsky is ten times the player that Mikhalishin is.
Apparently his reach outweighs all his flaws.

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Old
11-24-2004, 10:10 AM
  #74
Jason MacIsaac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Bachul
I wouldn't even bother putting Mikhalishin on your list....he is absolutely terrible. His skating is atrocious, and every time he gets hit (He is 6'4 and 209), he falls down. Undrafted Megalinsky is ten times the player that Mikhalishin is.
He has nice reach I am hoping Klimov is better. He has played 6 games in the RSL this year and is amost a half year younger.

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Old
11-24-2004, 10:27 AM
  #75
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He has nice reach I am hoping Klimov is better. He has played 6 games in the RSL this year and is amost a half year younger.
Reach means squat when you can't skate.

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