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Why do habs lose so many good young players before they're good?

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Old
04-01-2012, 10:36 AM
  #126
Habitant le colon
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we must admit one thing ; we are a Powerhouse on draft .. but we have a huge difficulty to gage our profiency into right developpment.

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04-01-2012, 10:39 AM
  #127
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
What do you want them to do? Ice a team with 14 players because 1/3 of the team is injured?
There are other guys in the AHL, that might never make it or have very little chances of doing so, that can be up here instead.
What's the purpose of having Palushaj play alongside Staubitz, really..?
Leblanc is at least getting 3rd line minutes, but him as well, I'd rather both these kids play top minutes in the AHL then play bottom line ones on a last place team.

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04-01-2012, 10:55 AM
  #128
Des Louise
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Well, first off, you're right about one thing. At the end of the day, this is a business, and like all businesses, the point is to make money.
That being said, in professional sport, winning and making money go hand in hand. Put forth a losing team and you won't be making all that much money. In a market like Mtl, you still might manage to make some, but in others, you'd lose money. Win the cup, and you'll make the most money.
So, even if management's priority is to make some cash, then building a SC contender team is the best way to do that.


Second, fans and medias don't hold that much power. People like to think they do, but really, they don't. Some of the guys we moved elsewhere had already shown good things here. Latendresse was our best scorer at ES, and we traded him for a guy that had been struggling even more, and produced less. Was it really that difficult to give Lats more ice time and try him out on the PP more regularly?
SK, also, had shown good things. AK consistently scored 20G, or at that pace, yet we found every possible way to diminish his contribution.
Same thing with D'Ago, he scored 12G in his first year here in 50ish games, that's about a 20g pace too.
Ribeiro had already scored 65pts here. I don't care if he even said it himself, the man had shown he was capable of something great. You surround him properly.
Ryder was a two time 30G scorer, three times 25+. No excuse to lose him for nothing.
Streit was an incredible important piece of our top place finish season.
Grabovski didn't get much chance here, but he was burning the AHL.

I mean, too many times did we give up players with potential, most of them showing it in the NHL, for nothing.
You cannot say they wouldn't have done it here, they already had shown they could. All you have to do is use them properly.

This year, the trend has continued. Eller, Weber and Palushaj are being misused. Not to mention we wasted our best forward. Plekanec has been converted into a checking center. Not a knock on DD, but he only has 8 pts more and is put in much favorable positions, with the best wingers.
We're using Palushaj along side Staubitz and Noke, on a 4th line. The purpose is to...not sure really..
Weber was moved from defense to offense, given one partner after another. For a young inexperienced guy with limited potential, it must certainly be tough. Not surprised he struggled through it.

Really, none of these decisions have to do with the media or the fans. And even if you want to move those guys, getting the weak returns (when there was a return..) is unacceptable.
We don't always see eye to eye but solid post, agree with every word.

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04-01-2012, 10:58 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There are other guys in the AHL, that might never make it or have very little chances of doing so, that can be up here instead.
What's the purpose of having Palushaj play alongside Staubitz, really..?
Leblanc is at least getting 3rd line minutes, but him as well, I'd rather both these kids play top minutes in the AHL then play bottom line ones on a last place team.
Palushaj is a pretty good example of what I was talking about in my post. I think Palushaj is an NHL player, Staubitz, Noke and Blunden are all clearly worse than him, there's no excuses for having Blunden higher than Palushaj on the depth chart. Palushaj is better now and in the future, that should be pretty easy to see.

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04-01-2012, 11:01 AM
  #130
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Superficial evaluation of the talent on hand, which in turn results in mismanagement and then in abandonment. The successive Hab GMs always rationalize their trades and for a time we believe them but when the former Habs shine with their new teams we begin to wonder whether our GMs are better at PR than they are in executing their primary functions.

It's also revealing that Gorges is the only key player on the present roster to have come in a trade (the others were draft picks or free agents).

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Old
04-01-2012, 11:04 AM
  #131
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Hello Habaneros, meet Jaroslav Halak.
that name sound familiar ....is he Russian?

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Old
04-01-2012, 11:23 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Two things:

1- Montreal has been horrible at identifying which of their players were actually good in the first place. Several of the players Montreal traded away didn't become good elsewhere; they were already good in Montreal, except it was not immediately obvious due to circumstance. Given away to other teams and put into better circumstances (more icetime, better linemates, etc), they naturally blossomed in terms of counting stats such as total points, creating the illusion that they had improved. They hadn't, at least not much; they were just put into situations where the same ability resulted in higher totals.

2- Montreal has shown itself to be willing to get rid of "problem attitudes" by giving the player away, generally for a trifling return. Invariably, this turns out to be a colossal mistake, but the Habs have not stopped doing it. Hopefully the Habs' next GM will give the "bad attitude" factor the lack of attention it warrants.
Good points.

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I've seen complaints that the Habs have given away youth for short-term fixes. If only that was true, that would've been better; one of the benefits of excellent drafting is having lots of young players to use as currency to fill needs. But on the contrary, the Habs have more often given good young NHLers for draft picks or lesser prospects, who were not only less immediately useful but of lesser future value as well. Latendresse for Pouliot, Grabovski for a second, Sergei Kostitsyn for nothing... dumb trades in every way, basically.
Mmm...

Kovalev for Balej (rumored to be a choice between plek and balej)
Lang for 2nd
Tanguay + 5th for 1st + 2nd
Schneider + 3rd for 2nd + 3rd
Gomez + Pyatt + Busto for McDonagh + Higgins + Valatenko
Moore for 2nd
Wiznewski for 2nd
Dowd for 4th

That's :

-one 1st
-five 2nd
-one downgraded 3rd
-one 4th for a 5th
-McDo
-Balej

over the past 8-9 years for a team that at almost no point was a legit contender or powerhouse.

And I'm likely forgetting some (Mara, Sopel ? ).

We have clearly used prospects and picks for quick fixes.

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04-01-2012, 11:33 AM
  #133
Burke the Legend
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You do realize you're talking about Gainey.

I respect him as a player but as a GM he is just slightly better than Houle or Milbury and probably not as bright as those two.
lol I hope that is a feeble troll attempt...otherwise that is an incredibly ******** thing to post about a guy who took a hopeless team and brought it to playoffs 6 of 8 seasons.

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Old
04-01-2012, 11:37 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Good points.



Mmm...

Kovalev for Balej (rumored to be a choice between plek and balej)
Lang for 2nd
Tanguay + 5th for 1st + 2nd
Schneider + 3rd for 2nd + 3rd
Gomez + Pyatt + Busto for McDonagh + Higgins + Valatenko
Moore for 2nd
Wiznewski for 2nd
Dowd for 4th

That's :

-one 1st
-five 2nd
-one downgraded 3rd
-one 4th for a 5th
-McDo
-Balej

over the past 8-9 years for a team that at almost no point was a legit contender or powerhouse.

And I'm likely forgetting some (Mara, Sopel ? ).

We have clearly used prospects and picks for quick fixes.
We've done a mix of both. He does have a point though. I'd argue that, with the exception of the Gomez trade, the SK, Grabo and Latendresse trades are clearly the worst trades out of the ones you two have listed. The Ribeirio trade would also be more in the mold of the ones Mathman named too. We did get lucky on the Kovalev deal but the deal that ended up being made was a good one for us.

Pretty sure we were a contender when we did the Lang and Tanguay trades.

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Old
04-01-2012, 11:53 AM
  #135
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Second, fans and medias don't hold that much power. People like to think they do, but really, they don't. Some of the guys we moved elsewhere had already shown good things here. Latendresse was our best scorer at ES, and we traded him for a guy that had been struggling even more, and produced less. Was it really that difficult to give Lats more ice time and try him out on the PP more regularly?
SK, also, had shown good things. AK consistently scored 20G, or at that pace, yet we found every possible way to diminish his contribution.
Same thing with D'Ago, he scored 12G in his first year here in 50ish games, that's about a 20g pace too.
Ribeiro had already scored 65pts here. I don't care if he even said it himself, the man had shown he was capable of something great. You surround him properly.
Ryder was a two time 30G scorer, three times 25+. No excuse to lose him for nothing.
Streit was an incredible important piece of our top place finish season.
Grabovski didn't get much chance here, but he was burning the AHL.
Blah blah blah it's never a player's fault when they are dumped! All these guys got shipped out of Montreal after causing problems. Some are talented, but they are just second/third line filler, completely replacable players. Notice none have really gone onto achieve any measurable success besides arguably Ryder (even then, he had serious ups and downs in Boston and they didn't re-sign him). Why the hell are people here so attached to these loser players?? None are winners who would turn the Habs into odds on cup favourites.

Could we have used another top line winger this season? Yes. Plekanec hasn't had decent linemates all season with Gionta injured and Cammelleri/Kostitsyn playing like crap... At the beginning of the season there was lots of winger depth, but injuries and mental problems manifested themselves. Can we just magically wish it would all be OK if SK was kept instead of Cammelleri signed? Sure go ahead if you want to play ultimate 20/20 hindisight GM game. Maybe SK would have even prevnted Gionta from being injured?! Wow he is amazing guy.


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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
This year, the trend has continued. Eller, Weber and Palushaj are being misused. Not to mention we wasted our best forward. Plekanec has been converted into a checking center. Not a knock on DD, but he only has 8 pts more and is put in much favorable positions, with the best wingers.
We're using Palushaj along side Staubitz and Noke, on a 4th line. The purpose is to...not sure really..
Weber was moved from defense to offense, given one partner after another. For a young inexperienced guy with limited potential, it must certainly be tough. Not surprised he struggled through it.
Misused lol? Weber & Palushaj are borderline NHLers. Stop pretending they are superstars if only they had a chance. Not every borderline NHLer goes on to a 1000 game career, most don't make it at all. There are only so many roster spots and icetime. Eller is 3rd on center depth chart, what exactly do you expect here?

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04-01-2012, 12:07 PM
  #136
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Blah blah blah it's never a player's fault when they are dumped! All these guys got shipped out of Montreal after causing problems. Some are talented, but they are just second/third line filler, completely replacable players. Notice none have really gone onto achieve any measurable success besides arguably Ryder (even then, he had serious ups and downs in Boston and they didn't re-sign him). Why the hell are people here so attached to these loser players?? None are winners who would turn the Habs into odds on cup favourites.

Could we have used another top line winger this season? Yes. Plekanec hasn't had decent linemates all season with Gionta injured and Cammelleri/Kostitsyn playing like crap... At the beginning of the season there was lots of winger depth, but injuries and mental problems manifested themselves. Can we just magically wish it would all be OK if SK was kept instead of Cammelleri signed? Sure go ahead if you want to play ultimate 20/20 hindisight GM game. Maybe SK would have even prevnted Gionta from being injured?! Wow he is amazing guy.




Misused lol? Weber & Palushaj are borderline NHLers. Stop pretending they are superstars if only they had a chance. Not every borderline NHLer goes on to a 1000 game career, most don't make it at all. There are only so many roster spots and icetime. Eller is 3rd on center depth chart, what exactly do you expect here?

The point.

















You.




As I said before, even if you want to argue these guys suck, we still ended up getting the short end of the trades that involved them, and in some cases, we lost them for nothing. Once or twice, I can live with, but this has happened way too often.
Nobody has suggested things would be great had we kept SK and not signed Cammy. I'm not sure how you draw does conclusions really. Point is we mismanaged things. Whether we didn't surround the players properly, or didn't get a fair return for them, it's mismanagement.

As for Palushaj, is it really that hard to make him play with Plekanec or Eller? We have guys like Blunden there that actually is an AHL player.
Jesus Christ man, do you hear yourself? Is it too much to give Eller the occasional shift on our horrible PP with some decent wingers? Is it difficult to TRY new things, instead of sticking with the same crap that has lead us to an astonishing 15th place position in the Eastern Conference? Was it too hard to keep AK there with him?

Stop making excuses.


Last edited by Kriss E: 04-01-2012 at 12:12 PM.
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Old
04-01-2012, 12:35 PM
  #137
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As for Palushaj, is it really that hard to make him play with Plekanec or Eller? We have guys like Blunden there that actually is an AHL player.
Jesus Christ man, do you hear yourself? Is it too much to give Eller the occasional shift on our horrible PP with some decent wingers? Is it difficult to TRY new things, instead of sticking with the same crap that has lead us to an astonishing 15th place position in the Eastern Conference? Was it too hard to keep AK there with him?
Agreed. Pretty weird to see people that seem to think players will magically put up point for being good (and if they don't we should dump them and when they do good once they're not misused we can say it doesn't matter since they're just a bunch of 3rd-2nd liners anyway) even if they don't have linemates after watching Plek's boxcars take a hit (though the hit isn't that bad since Plek is just that good) this year.

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04-01-2012, 12:52 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
We've done a mix of both. He does have a point though. I'd argue that, with the exception of the Gomez trade, the SK, Grabo and Latendresse trades are clearly the worst trades out of the ones you two have listed. The Ribeirio trade would also be more in the mold of the ones Mathman named too. We did get lucky on the Kovalev deal but the deal that ended up being made was a good one for us.

Pretty sure we were a contender when we did the Lang and Tanguay trades.
The problem is that it was mostly an illusion and we were never ever contenders. But I guess I can forgive the GM for being fooled on that one.

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04-01-2012, 12:57 PM
  #139
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As I said before, even if you want to argue these guys suck, we still ended up getting the short end of the trades that involved them, and in some cases, we lost them for nothing.
yes the habs didn't get enough, when you take the time machine and use wizard magic to retroactively apply their play since the trade to the time of the trade, instead of doing what NHL GMs actually do, which is apply their immediate play quality. Some people here will only be happy if the next habs' GM is HG Wells.

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04-01-2012, 01:16 PM
  #140
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yes the habs didn't get enough, when you take the time machine and use wizard magic to retroactively apply their play since the trade to the time of the trade, instead of doing what NHL GMs actually do, which is apply their immediate play quality. Some people here will only be happy if the next habs' GM is HG Wells.
Yes, because it was really that difficult to know Niinima was a crappy return for Ribeiro.
Or that letting Streit and Ryder (not to mention the numerous others) go for nothing wasn't the smartest thing. Or that SK for Boyd was ********. Or that trading Latendresse, one of your best ES producers, for a guy that had struggled and only scored 9 NHL goals, wasn't the best move.

Again, if it happened once in a while, it wouldn't be an issue. What's troubling is the fact it happened so frequently.

But go ahead, keep making excuses for some reason...

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04-01-2012, 01:23 PM
  #141
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The management sucks since 20 years and has no long-term plan for the team. Thank god the Gainey era is finally over (or is it? *dramatic music*).

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04-01-2012, 01:38 PM
  #142
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This has been going on for about 6-7 pages, which demonstrates the point about fans. In almost no other market are people as fanatical about their hockey players, and about marginal talent leaving (aside from McDonough). A lot of these players you are all writing about became a little too big for their britches because people like in this thread, and other places, just fixate on every minutia of the team, and for young people, it gets to their heads.

Aside from SK and McDonough, and possibly Koivu, I don't think there is anyone I think we made a big blunder on in the last 7 years. Also, people talk about draft choices being given away for loaners, but for the most part, 2nd, 3rds, 4ths, and 5ths do not turn in to NHL talent. They do sometimes with Timmins, but not always.

And, a lot of the people that came back in the trades really helped: Moore, Kovalev, Wisnewski.

I think that if you think back to the Houle era, this team has done a lot better. If we can keep Timmins for drafting, and we get some better decisions in terms on prospect management, we'll be good. But, there will also always be the issue of 17-21 year olds not being ready for the market we are in, and crappying the bed. Not all prospects have the mental fortitude of a Subban or a Price, and even price cried on national TV.

Anyway -- I get the feeling that no resolution will be had here, because some fans think that it is their right to be armchair GMs, flamming players one day, glorifying them the next; with journalist asking them every night about their performances (Eller is looking to be getting pretty effected by this constant questioning), why the team is losing, how great the player was for scoring 4 goals, etc, etc. and then thinking that these your minds live in a vacuum! They are effected, it shows up on the ice in games and in practices, and in Nashville they don't hear ZIP!

Quebec Nordiques can't come back to quickly, IMO!

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04-01-2012, 01:53 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Blah blah blah it's never a player's fault when they are dumped! All these guys got shipped out of Montreal after causing problems. Some are talented, but they are just second/third line filler, completely replacable players. Notice none have really gone onto achieve any measurable success besides arguably Ryder (even then, he had serious ups and downs in Boston and they didn't re-sign him). Why the hell are people here so attached to these loser players?? None are winners who would turn the Habs into odds on cup favourites.

Could we have used another top line winger this season? Yes. Plekanec hasn't had decent linemates all season with Gionta injured and Cammelleri/Kostitsyn playing like crap... At the beginning of the season there was lots of winger depth, but injuries and mental problems manifested themselves. Can we just magically wish it would all be OK if SK was kept instead of Cammelleri signed? Sure go ahead if you want to play ultimate 20/20 hindisight GM game. Maybe SK would have even prevnted Gionta from being injured?! Wow he is amazing guy.




Misused lol? Weber & Palushaj are borderline NHLers. Stop pretending they are superstars if only they had a chance. Not every borderline NHLer goes on to a 1000 game career, most don't make it at all. There are only so many roster spots and icetime. Eller is 3rd on center depth chart, what exactly do you expect here?
Well the thread is about why the Habs lose so many young players that become good with their new team. So if you're saying the organization is not to blame for their young players bad attitude, then maybe the organization SHOULD be blame for drafting player with attitude problem but then again, the so call attitude problem seems to happen only in Montreal because i have never heard any report of attitude problem by our young players with their new team.

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04-01-2012, 01:56 PM
  #144
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This has been going on for about 6-7 pages, which demonstrates the point about fans. In almost no other market are people as fanatical about their hockey players, and about marginal talent leaving (aside from McDonough). A lot of these players you are all writing about became a little too big for their britches because people like in this thread, and other places, just fixate on every minutia of the team, and for young people, it gets to their heads.
!


Could not have said it better myself.

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04-01-2012, 01:56 PM
  #145
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Anyway -- I get the feeling that no resolution will be had here, because some fans think that it is their right to be armchair GMs, flamming players one day, glorifying them the next;
There will always be armchair GMs. But that really isn't what's being discussed here.
What is being discussed is the undeniable FACT that we have mismanaged assets. There is no denying that, and it's not just SK and McDo. There is a very long list of assets that were either mishandled here, or traded at their lowest value, attracting the lowest return.

If you want to argue that we actually haven't mishandled prospects, or gotten bad returns, then I think you have to reevaluate your standards of evaluation.

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04-01-2012, 02:23 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There will always be armchair GMs. But that really isn't what's being discussed here.
What is being discussed is the undeniable FACT that we have mismanaged assets. There is no denying that, and it's not just SK and McDo. There is a very long list of assets that were either mishandled here, or traded at their lowest value, attracting the lowest return.

If you want to argue that we actually haven't mishandled prospects, or gotten bad returns, then I think you have to reevaluate your standards of evaluation.
I can't argue this, because is is an undeniable FACT that no system is perfect, and thus mismanagement will always happen alongside proper management. Even Apple, which is a pretty good company, has suffered some mismanagement, and it is pretty well documented.

What the OP asked was WHY do we lose prospects before they blossom, and I think that there is not just one answer. But, if anyone fanatical fans or over zealous media think that they have absolutely no role in it, and that the team operates in a bubble, then I think that it is a case of wishful thinking. Also, if people think that just because x happened in context y, that it should also happen in context z has serious issues with logics.

I hope, whatever happens, that the next management does an even better job. From those who went through the Houle era, we remember truly horrible mismanagement, and since Savard took over, and then Gainey, we have slowly recovered some grounds. I see this year as an aberration, and like many people have pointed out, we have excellent pieces in place: we just need a few more solid pieces, and we should be good next year, and possibly great the year after.

Hope 1: Markov comes back with a vengeance; Hope 2: we pick up a good D and a good forward or two. Hope 3: We draft a top center in this years draft, or somehow pry Huberdeau from Florida.

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04-01-2012, 02:26 PM
  #147
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Yes, because it was really that difficult to know Niinima was a crappy return for Ribeiro.
Or that letting Streit and Ryder (not to mention the numerous others) go for nothing wasn't the smartest thing. Or that SK for Boyd was ********. Or that trading Latendresse, one of your best ES producers, for a guy that had struggled and only scored 9 NHL goals, wasn't the best move.
the reality distortion field here is at full power it seems...

So you wanted them to trade streit when they were in 1st place? lol


The other guys weren't worth much plain and simple. People here get so emotionally attached to 2nd liners they get a crush on and think are full of "potential". Stop being such a CH fanboy for a minute and take a look around the league, problematic marginal players like that just aren't worth what you think they are.

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04-01-2012, 02:34 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There will always be armchair GMs. But that really isn't what's being discussed here.
What is being discussed is the undeniable FACT that we have mismanaged assets. There is no denying that, and it's not just SK and McDo. There is a very long list of assets that were either mishandled here, or traded at their lowest value, attracting the lowest return.

If you want to argue that we actually haven't mishandled prospects, or gotten bad returns, then I think you have to reevaluate your standards of evaluation.

you are being the ultimate armchair GM here, you have listed every transaction of the last 5 years and insinuated management messed up, like you could do better (without 20/20 hindsight).

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04-01-2012, 02:38 PM
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Whitesnake
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you are being the ultimate armchair GM here, you have listed every transaction of the last 5 years and insinuated management messed up, like you could do better (without 20/20 hindsight).
Funny post. There are in charge. They have to make it work. Just like me, you and everybody else has to make it work at school or at work. I won't be blaming you if I screw up at work would I? How about taking the responsabilities of your actions? And then, why can't we look behind to be able to analyse somebody's work? You have no choice to do so that way. And whether we would or wouldn't do better is totally irrelevant. 'Cause the day it is, close this board. Nobody can't ever say anything 'cause we wouldn't have done better.

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04-01-2012, 02:41 PM
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the reality distortion field here is at full power it seems...

So you wanted them to trade streit when they were in 1st place? lol


The other guys weren't worth much plain and simple. People here get so emotionally attached to 2nd liners they get a crush on and think are full of "potential". Stop being such a CH fanboy for a minute and take a look around the league, problematic marginal players like that just aren't worth what you think they are.
Good job missing the fact that it's totally known that at one point, Streit would have signed with us at much less than what he got if he would have had the vision to do so. And I know that some in here were absolutely suggesting that as well so it's not like it was coming out of nowhere to sign him.

Oh and 2nd lines? Well we are actually looking for some at this moment. I'm pretty sure Plekanec would drool over a couple of 2nd liners....Thing is, we are last in the conference. Any upgrade would do. Yes, it's great to solely aim at top 10 players in the league, yet, since it's impossible to get them, you need to get players to improve. And most people we let go, or didn't have anything significant in return would have made this team better.

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