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Why do habs lose so many good young players before they're good?

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Old
04-01-2012, 02:50 PM
  #151
Stradale
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
the reality distortion field here is at full power it seems...

So you wanted them to trade streit when they were in 1st place? lol


The other guys weren't worth much plain and simple. People here get so emotionally attached to 2nd liners they get a crush on and think are full of "potential". Stop being such a CH fanboy for a minute and take a look around the league, problematic marginal players like that just aren't worth what you think they are.
Its funny you call him CH fanboy but hes actually criticizing the organization and "defend" the young players that are now playing on other teams now. How is that a fanboy. You more like a fanboy defending every move the organization like they can do no wrong while blaming our young players that are successful with other team.

You seem to fail to understand why our young players does not worth more than that when they gets traded by the Habs. That is the problem. Why are they now an important part of their respective team? Why they dont have these attitude problem anymore. Why they are worth much more now. Why they are much better now.

Yeah these depth players are useless. We dont need them. We have players like White, Geoffrion, Darche, Moen playing in our top 6. We dont need those young talent that can score 20g/50pts in our team.

Lets build our team by overpaying Ufa. That is how good team builds their team right? Who care about developing our drafted players.

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04-01-2012, 02:54 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
the reality distortion field here is at full power it seems...

So you wanted them to trade streit when they were in 1st place? lol


The other guys weren't worth much plain and simple. People here get so emotionally attached to 2nd liners they get a crush on and think are full of "potential". Stop being such a CH fanboy for a minute and take a look around the league, problematic marginal players like that just aren't worth what you think they are.
No, I did not want them to trade Streit. They could have re-signed him. Or will you have another excuse for that? And before you say Streit was too pricey, he would have agreed to a cheaper deal had we extended him earlier in the season.

And is it good management to let, Streit, Souray, Ryder, Kovalev, Koivu, Bouillon, Dandenault, Tanguay, Hamrlik, Komisarek (to name a few), go for nothing?? We're not talking about one or two players here. Now, I understand you can't move them all, but when things were as bleak as they were for us, we could have moved some. And I know some probably wouldn't have fetch much of anything, but a 5-7th rounder remains better than nothing. Also, if Gainey did not operate under the ''no negotiation during the season'' ideology, he could have actually prepared himself better. If he's going to make offers to Souray, Komisarek and Kovalev at the end of the year, only to see them declined and lost to free agency, might as well try to do it before the trade deadline that way if you can't get something done, you move them.
But I guess that's too much to ask and it's a distortion of reality.

I don't care if you think the others weren't worth much, it's irrelevant to the point. Try not to resort to little pathetic attempts to insult and stay on the subject (and wouldn't a fanboy actually defend the organization..?..maybe you should look in the mirror).
You tell me to look around the league. I always have. If you would have, you would have noticed how we traded Lappy to Anaheim for Festerling and a 5th. He had a rough time in Anaheim, actually looked worse than in Mtl, and yet was moved to the Canucks for Perrault and a 3rd. Care to explain that to me?
Would you prefer to have a 3rd or a 5th?
You would also noticed how the guys were traded have all contributed more than the return we've gotten.

The point isn't that this happens everywhere. It does. But the problem is that it happens here the most. If you can't notice that, then you're the one that needs to take a look around the NHL.

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04-01-2012, 03:00 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
the reality distortion field here is at full power it seems...

So you wanted them to trade streit
when they were in 1st place? lol


The other guys weren't worth much plain and simple. People here get so emotionally attached to 2nd liners they get a crush on and think are full of "potential". Stop being such a CH fanboy for a minute and take a look around the league, problematic marginal players like that just aren't worth what you think they are.
Streit, after his 62 pts season, was willing to sign with the Habs, all he asked is to be used as a D man...


No one here think the Lapierre, Lats, SK, AK or others are superstar...

but reality is...

Lapierre while he was here showed he could be good enough for 3rd line duties (Kosto, Lap, Lats line anyone?) and is showing elsewhere he can play top 9 on a GOOD team...

S.K. showed here he was talented enough for top 6 role, he's used elsewhere on the top 6 of a very good team also...

A.K. was a 20G scorer with us until our last coach change... he is showing now, elsewhere, on a good team also, that he's a 20G scorer...

Grabovski showed here he had enough skills to have a spot on a NHL squad... and he is now, a regular on a NHL team elsewhere...




So no, they're no superstars (you can drop that silly stuff, no one is saying they are)... but they're good enough to play roles on good teams for the most part...



we traded em for not much or simply let them walk...
yet we have ONE offensive line...
and we traded to acquire what we thought was a PP QB


ONE offensive line...
ONE...

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04-01-2012, 05:43 PM
  #154
Burke the Legend
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Good job missing the fact that it's totally known that at one point, Streit would have signed with us at much less than what he got if he would have had the vision to do so. And I know that some in here were absolutely suggesting that as well so it's not like it was coming out of nowhere to sign him.
The Habs were #1 that season and Streit couldn't even crack the top 6, he was being used as a forward. He had plenty of chances to get a D job but got outplayed by people like Obyrne and Gorges. He just didn't fit in with the Habs, but a less talented team like the NYI had plenty of space for him so he moves on. I don't see the big deal here, you can't keep everybody.

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Oh and 2nd lines? Well we are actually looking for some at this moment. I'm pretty sure Plekanec would drool over a couple of 2nd liners....Thing is, we are last in the conference. Any upgrade would do. Yes, it's great to solely aim at top 10 players in the league, yet, since it's impossible to get them, you need to get players to improve. And most people we let go, or didn't have anything significant in return would have made this team better.
Another hindsight 20/20 genius GM here. Plekanec had 3 potential linemates at the beginning of season, Gionta, AK and Camelleri. I guess you knew that Gionta would get injured, and AK + Camelleri would suck? You must be a wizard!! **** happens, Plek's wingers will be fixed next season, Gionta will be back and someone else will be brought in by UFA or trade (I personally wanna see Semin in CH on a short term contract).

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04-01-2012, 05:46 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
yet we have ONE offensive line...


ONE offensive line...
ONE...
Wow another one!! 20/20 hindsight geniuses grow on trees here. Why didn't you call Gauthier on your timephone to tell him Gionta would get injured and then AK/Camelleri would suck?!

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04-01-2012, 08:11 PM
  #156
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don't wanna sound like a total ****** but Habs could have used these former players for sure!

Mike Ribeiro 62 points in 72 games traded for nothing
Michael Ryder 35 goals +20 UFA
Mikhael Grabovski 23 goals, 50 points traded for nothing
Mark Streit 45 points 10th leading scorer on defence UFA
Mike Cammalleri 13 points in his last 15 games traded for a slug
Sergei Kostitsyn leading Preds in goals and points in 2010-11 traded for nothing
his brother Andrei 10 points in 16 games traded for a second when Habs probably could have gotten more.
and let us not forget about Ryan Macdonagh 30 points +28 for Scott Gomez

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Old
04-01-2012, 08:29 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Wow another one!! 20/20 hindsight geniuses grow on trees here. Why didn't you call Gauthier on your timephone to tell him Gionta would get injured and then AK/Camelleri would suck?!
hindsight ?

what the F are you talking about...



AK didnt became a 20G scorer in Nashville... he was already a 20G winger with us...

Streit didnt become a good offensive D man in NY, he had his best season offensively with us, 62 pts..

SK was already a 0.5 PPG (more or less) with us, it's not that much of a stretch to think he could become a 45/50 pts player... he was already close to that with us...

Ribeiro was already good enough for 2nd line duty when he was a Habs... he didnt became a good passer in Dallas, he was already one when with us...

Ryder scored 30 for us in his last season as a Habs...

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04-01-2012, 09:14 PM
  #158
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Yep, it does fall on management, mis-handling of salaries, impatient with young players,
Just overall difficult city to play in, pressure++.

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04-01-2012, 09:16 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
None of the players the habs have traded have gone on to win anything. Why are people so bent out of shape?
Micheal Ryder? or was that a contract dispute?

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04-01-2012, 10:16 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
The Habs were #1 that season and Streit couldn't even crack the top 6, he was being used as a forward. He had plenty of chances to get a D job but got outplayed by people like Obyrne and Gorges. He just didn't fit in with the Habs, but a less talented team like the NYI had plenty of space for him so he moves on. I don't see the big deal here, you can't keep everybody.
Oh yeah, big time OUTPLAYED by the great O'Byrne. Habs couldn,t see that their powerplay was pretty good with a passer like Markov but also had an history of players that were great shooters that not only were shooting hard but with great accuracy on top of that? And they decided that he wasn't good enough? Oh and he couldn't even crack the top 6 because he was tried how many times again on it? Yeah that bum who only had 62 points in his last season was CLEARLY not good enough for us....Not his fault if we had dumb and dumber as coaches who weren't intelligent enough to give him the space to make him confortable on D. Which he clearly is showing when he has the confidence needed. Hey Diaz, when healthy played how many games up front compared on D? And he was showing much more than Streit was? Are you for real?

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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Another hindsight 20/20 genius GM here. Plekanec had 3 potential linemates at the beginning of season, Gionta, AK and Camelleri. I guess you knew that Gionta would get injured, and AK + Camelleri would suck? You must be a wizard!! **** happens, Plek's wingers will be fixed next season, Gionta will be back and someone else will be brought in by UFA or trade (I personally wanna see Semin in CH on a short term contract).
Geez who is on hindsight here? You blame the poster for listing the last 5 YEARS of trades, and yet talk to me about players we acquired...3 years ago? Hey maybe if we deal with our players better, we don't have to go on this terrific sale and get that great Gionta who Lamoriello said to run and that that Habs offer that was so disproportionate or Cammalleri. And maybe by keeping those "just 2nd liners" and make them play on the 3rd line 'cause Gionta, AK or Cammy are so incredible, that it makes our lineup way more diversified and powerful. Yeah **** happens. Mostly when you kep giving away assets for nothing as small as you think they all were. As if we were in any position to say that we didn't need those guys 'cause they're just a bunch of fillers....look the standings....


Last edited by Whitesnake: 04-02-2012 at 11:28 AM.
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04-02-2012, 12:20 AM
  #161
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Not my fault you can't remember the circumstances of why he ended up on the 4th line. He is not very good at D. He still isn't BTW. Just now he is defaulted to #1 on the worst team in the NHL, he puts up points cuz he is on the ice for 25 minutes, and their entire PP, dishing 2nd assist to Moulson & Tavares. Not a huge loss, not worth 4 million.

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04-02-2012, 02:03 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Not my fault you can't remember the circumstances of why he ended up on the 4th line. He is not very good at D. He still isn't BTW. Just now he is defaulted to #1 on the worst team in the NHL, he puts up points cuz he is on the ice for 25 minutes, and their entire PP, dishing 2nd assist to Moulson & Tavares. Not a huge loss, not worth 4 million.
was willing to sign WAY below that...

and he never asked to play on the 1st pair... just to play D...

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04-02-2012, 06:10 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
I could list all the young players lost and are performing remarkably well; and we gave them away for almost free.

In last ten years, We have drafted very well, and found some real gem out of draft; yet, lot of young players are flourishing and making their mark with other teams

So, is this something that new management should look at and handle better? I really would like to see home grown prospects doing good with my team and not the leafs or the rangers...
A nice step in the right direction was done last week : Gauthier/Gainey out

We need more patience from medias and fans too.

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04-02-2012, 06:30 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
was willing to sign WAY below that...

and he never asked to play on the 1st pair... just to play D...
Gainey and his stupid policy of not talking contract during the season.

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04-02-2012, 07:51 AM
  #165
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Here's the current cap hit of defensemen that Montreal has drafted or acquired in trades / FA signings at a relatively young age:

Markov $5,750,000
Komisarek $4,500,000
Hainsey $4,500,000
Streit $4,100,000
Beauchemin $3,800,000
Robidas $3,300,000
Gorges $2,500,000
O'Byrne $1,800,000
Souray $1,650,000
Clark $1,500,000
Bouillon $1,350,000
McDonagh $1,300,000 (ELC)
Emelin $984,200
Diaz $900,000 (ELC)
Subban $875,000 (ELC)
Weber $850,000
Carkner $700,000

Now, I don't think it would have been a good idea to have $40.3 million and 17 out of 23 roster spots tied up in defenseman this season. So some of these guys had to go.

We're quick to praise Timmins for his drafting, and rightfully so. But in a weird way, his draft success contributes significantly to the problem - we had too many guys who can play in the NHL. Timmins drafted 16 bona fide NHL players between 2003 and 2007, which is incredibly good. But there simply isn't enough room for all of these guys, especially when all players are waiver eligible 5 years after being drafted (or less, in some cases).

So we lost players to UFA, who at the time weren't close to being worth what the other team was offering:

Souray
Streit
Komisarek

We lost some to waivers, trying to send them down or bring them back up:

Robidas
Hainsey
Beauchemin

To trades for other prospects instead of losing them on waivers:

O'Byrne

Or just let them wander off because they simply weren't good enough, but later got good enoguh to stick with their new teams:

Bouillon
Clark
Carkner

Only one guy on that list was lost to a brutal trade, and that was McDonagh. The point is, the outflow of talent isn't part of some heinous scheme or some particularly awful general managing. Aside from the McDonagh trade, a guy who hadn't even signed a contract yet at the time, our losses on the blue line have essentially all been due to a numbers game and/or salary cap limitations.

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04-02-2012, 09:57 AM
  #166
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Here's the current cap hit of defensemen that Montreal has drafted or acquired in trades / FA signings at a relatively young age:

Markov $5,750,000
Komisarek $4,500,000
Hainsey $4,500,000
Streit $4,100,000
Beauchemin $3,800,000
Robidas $3,300,000
Gorges $2,500,000
O'Byrne $1,800,000
Souray $1,650,000
Clark $1,500,000
Bouillon $1,350,000
McDonagh $1,300,000 (ELC)
Emelin $984,200
Diaz $900,000 (ELC)
Subban $875,000 (ELC)
Weber $850,000
Carkner $700,000

Now, I don't think it would have been a good idea to have $40.3 million and 17 out of 23 roster spots tied up in defenseman this season. So some of these guys had to go.

We're quick to praise Timmins for his drafting, and rightfully so. But in a weird way, his draft success contributes significantly to the problem - we had too many guys who can play in the NHL. Timmins drafted 16 bona fide NHL players between 2003 and 2007, which is incredibly good. But there simply isn't enough room for all of these guys, especially when all players are waiver eligible 5 years after being drafted (or less, in some cases).

So we lost players to UFA, who at the time weren't close to being worth what the other team was offering:

Souray
Streit
Komisarek

We lost some to waivers, trying to send them down or bring them back up:

Robidas
Hainsey
Beauchemin

To trades for other prospects instead of losing them on waivers:

O'Byrne

Or just let them wander off because they simply weren't good enough, but later got good enoguh to stick with their new teams:

Bouillon
Clark
Carkner

Only one guy on that list was lost to a brutal trade, and that was McDonagh. The point is, the outflow of talent isn't part of some heinous scheme or some particularly awful general managing. Aside from the McDonagh trade, a guy who hadn't even signed a contract yet at the time, our losses on the blue line have essentially all been due to a numbers game and/or salary cap limitations.
Dude, what are you talking about? In no way is that a problem.

First off, if we were deep on defense, Timmins probably would not have kept picking Dmen.
Second, having good young players ready to step in make others, more expensive, more expendable.
They are valuable assets in the end, you trade them to get better in other positions.
That's how you improve.

Out of your list, (Bouillon, Clark, Carkner) Streit, Robidas, Komisarek, Souray, Hainsey, Beauchemin, and arguably McDonagh, were all lost for a big fat nothing. That is simply unacceptable. Horrible mismanagement. I don't care if you want to make an excuse for each case, outside Bouillon-Clark-Carkner, all the guys you named either were or became high profile Dmen. We should have developed them more, and then plan accordingly.

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04-02-2012, 10:45 AM
  #167
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Some people really seem to have trouble distinguishing in their head the differences between managing a NHL roster and managing a pokemon roster.

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04-02-2012, 10:52 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Dude, what are you talking about? In no way is that a problem.

First off, if we were deep on defense, Timmins probably would not have kept picking Dmen.
Second, having good young players ready to step in make others, more expensive, more expendable.
They are valuable assets in the end, you trade them to get better in other positions.
That's how you improve.

Out of your list, (Bouillon, Clark, Carkner) Streit, Robidas, Komisarek, Souray, Hainsey, Beauchemin, and arguably McDonagh, were all lost for a big fat nothing. That is simply unacceptable. Horrible mismanagement. I don't care if you want to make an excuse for each case, outside Bouillon-Clark-Carkner, all the guys you named either were or became high profile Dmen. We should have developed them more, and then plan accordingly.
Thanks for missing the point. I'll agree with you that we got a crappy, crappy return on most of these guys, but all I'm saying is that we can't physically have 17 defensemen on the roster. Because Timmins picked so many decent defensemen, we by definition had to get rid of some of them one way or another.

Who we chose to keep and who we chose to get rid of, plus the (lack of) return we got on them, that's all fair game to complain about.

Now obviously we're far better off drafting a lot of NHL calibre players than no NHL calibre players, but draft success leads inevitably to having to move players off your roster at less than ideal times. Teams that don't draft well aren't currently asking the question "Why do we lose so many good young players" because they never had any to start with.

Complaining about trading O'Byrne? Fine, but should we have traded Gorges instead to open up a spot for him?

Upset about losing Hainsey for nothing? Fine, but that's because Streit stole his spot in training camp. If we didn't steal Streit in the late rounds we wouldn't have lost Hainsey to waivers.

Should have kept Carkner and Bouillon? Fine, but that means Emelin decides not to come over last summer knowing there's absolutely no room for him.

And so on. Can't keep everyone. Not every trade of surplus AHL/NHL defensemen (or forwards) is going to bring back an all-star in return either, although yes, we should have done better on many of those moves.

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04-02-2012, 11:08 AM
  #169
Kjell Dahlin
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post

(...)

1- Montreal has been horrible at identifying which of their players were actually good in the first place. Several of the players Montreal traded away didn't become good elsewhere; they were already good in Montreal, except it was not immediately obvious due to circumstance.

(...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post

(...)

Some of the guys we moved elsewhere had already shown good things here. Latendresse was our best scorer at ES, and we traded him for a guy that had been struggling even more, and produced less. Was it really that difficult to give Lats more ice time and try him out on the PP more regularly?
SK, also, had shown good things. AK consistently scored 20G, or at that pace, yet we found every possible way to diminish his contribution.
Same thing with D'Ago, he scored 12G in his first year here in 50ish games, that's about a 20g pace too.
Ribeiro had already scored 65pts here. I don't care if he even said it himself, the man had shown he was capable of something great. You surround him properly.
Ryder was a two time 30G scorer, three times 25+. No excuse to lose him for nothing.
Streit was an incredible important piece of our top place finish season.
Grabovski didn't get much chance here, but he was burning the AHL.

I mean, too many times did we give up players with potential, most of them showing it in the NHL, for nothing.
You cannot say they wouldn't have done it here, they already had shown they could. All you have to do is use them properly.

(...)
I came here to post something similar to ^^this^^ ... and frankly that's what I find the most annoying!

The OP/thread title is inaccurate imo: most of these players were already showing good stuff in Montreal.


Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Thanks for missing the point. I'll agree with you that we got a crappy, crappy return on most of these guys, but all I'm saying is that we can't physically have 17 defensemen on the roster. Because Timmins picked so many decent defensemen, we by definition had to get rid of some of them one way or another.

Who we chose to keep and who we chose to get rid of, plus the (lack of) return we got on them, that's all fair game to complain about.

Now obviously we're far better off drafting a lot of NHL calibre players than no NHL calibre players, but draft success leads inevitably to having to move players off your roster at less than ideal times. Teams that don't draft well aren't currently asking the question "Why do we lose so many good young players" because they never had any to start with.

Complaining about trading O'Byrne? Fine, but should we have traded Gorges instead to open up a spot for him?

Upset about losing Hainsey for nothing? Fine, but that's because Streit stole his spot in training camp. If we didn't steal Streit in the late rounds we wouldn't have lost Hainsey to waivers.

Should have kept Carkner and Bouillon? Fine, but that means Emelin decides not to come over last summer knowing there's absolutely no room for him.

And so on. Can't keep everyone. Not every trade of surplus AHL/NHL defensemen (or forwards) is going to bring back an all-star in return either, although yes, we should have done better on many of those moves.
I understand your point ("... all I'm saying is that we can't physically have 17 defensemen on the roster...") but regarding, specifically, this comment: "... Complaining about trading O'Byrne? Fine, but should we have traded Gorges instead to open up a spot for him? ..." - Personally, instead of signing Gill, I was wishing for a Gorges – O'Byrne 3rd pairing.


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04-02-2012, 11:25 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
hindsight ?

what the F are you talking about...



AK didnt became a 20G scorer in Nashville... he was already a 20G winger with us...

Streit didnt become a good offensive D man in NY, he had his best season offensively with us, 62 pts..

SK was already a 0.5 PPG (more or less) with us, it's not that much of a stretch to think he could become a 45/50 pts player... he was already close to that with us...

Ribeiro was already good enough for 2nd line duty when he was a Habs... he didnt became a good passer in Dallas, he was already one when with us...

Ryder scored 30 for us in his last season as a Habs...
Ryder scored 14 goals in his last season with the habs

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04-02-2012, 11:38 AM
  #171
ECWHSWI
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Thanks for missing the point. I'll agree with you that we got a crappy, crappy return on most of these guys, but all I'm saying is that we can't physically have 17 defensemen on the roster. Because Timmins picked so many decent defensemen, we by definition had to get rid of some of them one way or another.

Who we chose to keep and who we chose to get rid of, plus the (lack of) return we got on them, that's all fair game to complain about.

Now obviously we're far better off drafting a lot of NHL calibre players than no NHL calibre players, but draft success leads inevitably to having to move players off your roster at less than ideal times. Teams that don't draft well aren't currently asking the question "Why do we lose so many good young players" because they never had any to start with.

Complaining about trading O'Byrne? Fine, but should we have traded Gorges instead to open up a spot for him?

Upset about losing Hainsey for nothing? Fine, but that's because Streit stole his spot in training camp. If we didn't steal Streit in the late rounds we wouldn't have lost Hainsey to waivers.

Should have kept Carkner and Bouillon? Fine, but that means Emelin decides not to come over last summer knowing there's absolutely no room for him.

And so on. Can't keep everyone. Not every trade of surplus AHL/NHL defensemen (or forwards) is going to bring back an all-star in return either, although yes, we should have done better on many of those moves.
Think YOU are missing the point, there's no such thing as having too many D... we had to sign Hamrlik, Gill, Spacek, Mara and Campoli as UFA, trade for Schneider, Sopel, Kaberle...



Hainsey was already gone when Streit came over...

and yet, in every season O'Byrne was with us, there was enough room for he and Gorges in the line up...

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04-02-2012, 11:40 AM
  #172
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Not my fault you can't remember the circumstances of why he ended up on the 4th line. He is not very good at D. He still isn't BTW. Just now he is defaulted to #1 on the worst team in the NHL, he puts up points cuz he is on the ice for 25 minutes, and their entire PP, dishing 2nd assist to Moulson & Tavares. Not a huge loss, not worth 4 million.
Not very good on D. And even if it was true, since when do we carry 6 bonafide superstars on D? We went and acquire Kaberle didn't we? Is he good on D? Wasn't his first purpose be to help the PP? How was he in that departement? Oh and how about Campoli, the guy some here was using his injury to explain that this is why we were having some problems. Was Diaz perfect on D?

Again, it is about IMPROVING. Not becoming Cup Champion in an instant. Good job saying that he puts up points 'cause he is on the ice for 25 minutes, yet forget to say that he's being scored on more maybe because....he's on the ice for 25 minutes and plays for an awful team. Yet stats aren't everything and watching games are in order somehow. 'Cause if you'd go solely with stats and +/-, you'd think that Desharnais is really great defensively while Plekanec is one of the worst..... And not worth 4 millions? Maybe. Surely. Which was not the number he had in mind when there was a window for us to signing before it went UFA crazy. Which is the whole point. Added to the fact that we lost a whole lot of players for nothing and not even 2nd rounders, this is crazy bad as far as management is concerned. Incredible how we might have a guy who is the best in his business, and yet, don't think we could use him a little more by adding a few other picks instead of a big fat nothing.

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04-02-2012, 11:45 AM
  #173
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Ryder scored 14 goals in his last season with the habs
true my bad, he scored 30 the two previous seasons with us.

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04-02-2012, 12:12 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Thanks for missing the point. I'll agree with you that we got a crappy, crappy return on most of these guys, but all I'm saying is that we can't physically have 17 defensemen on the roster. Because Timmins picked so many decent defensemen, we by definition had to get rid of some of them one way or another.

Who we chose to keep and who we chose to get rid of, plus the (lack of) return we got on them, that's all fair game to complain about.

Now obviously we're far better off drafting a lot of NHL calibre players than no NHL calibre players, but draft success leads inevitably to having to move players off your roster at less than ideal times. Teams that don't draft well aren't currently asking the question "Why do we lose so many good young players" because they never had any to start with.

Complaining about trading O'Byrne? Fine, but should we have traded Gorges instead to open up a spot for him?

Upset about losing Hainsey for nothing? Fine, but that's because Streit stole his spot in training camp. If we didn't steal Streit in the late rounds we wouldn't have lost Hainsey to waivers.

Should have kept Carkner and Bouillon? Fine, but that means Emelin decides not to come over last summer knowing there's absolutely no room for him.

And so on. Can't keep everyone. Not every trade of surplus AHL/NHL defensemen (or forwards) is going to bring back an all-star in return either, although yes, we should have done better on many of those moves.
I didn't miss your point, at all. It's very clear, you're saying we can't carry too many Dmen, therefore, some will have to go.
That's fine dude, everybody knows there is only 6 spots on Defense, with one or two extras.
The real issue however is the return you get. We got NOTHING. Don't tell me that is fine and normal, it's not, and if you think it is, then you need to take a step back to realize your idea of managing is quite crappy.

And as I previously mentioned, had we not lost some of these guys, then Timmins probably doesn't draft Dmen. But even if he does, having a good/great prospect to trade is NEVER a problem. So long that you don't give him up for nothing. You think it would be a problem if our D squad becomes so good, that we don't have any room for Tinordi or Beaulieu and have to move those high end prospects because they're NHL ready and burning the AHL? How is that a problem? Or maybe you move a guy like Gorges and his 4M price tag in order to make room for a solid, bigger, cheaper Dmen.
Again, it is NEVER a problem to have too many good players.

I never complained about O'Byrne, because we didn't lose him. We got Bournival in exchange, who's a great prospect. A trade I'm content with. That trade, along with the Halak one, is about the only ones that are fair. Palushaj vs D'Ago might be alright as well, but for now, it hasn't paid any dividends, and it won't unless we start handling Palushaj better (he has no business on a 4th line with Staubitz).

I don't care about Clark, Carkner or Bouillon. It is normal to lose certain guys to free agency.
But you don't take a risk on a guy like Hainsey, Mtl mis-evaluated him. Took a gamble by sending him down, and he got picked up. Simply stupid. If I recall, Gainey also said the GMs had given him word they wouldn't pick him, he got screwed by MacLean in CLB. Poor foresight from Gainey to actually trust his competitors. He got screwed again when he trusted Niinima was a top 4 D, and again, with Laraque being in shape, and let's not forget Gomez. Outside the Kovalev deal, he constantly got screwed. Either he was an idiot, or he surrounded himself with idiots. But one has to think, only an idiot will surround himself of idiots and actually listen to them.

What about Beauchemin? Robidas? Komisarek? Streit? Souray?
With the last three, all we had to do is discuss contracts during the season. See if you can work on an extension. If they aren't interested, you move them. Komisarek's and Souray's contracts ended after a very shaky season. You could have taken a risk on moving them and still hope to make the POs. But management wanted to keep all odds of making them, so they didn't move anybody. Not surprisingly, they lost them at the end of the year.
Streit's contract came to an end after our top place finish, and he was a valuable contributor to our success which made him immovable come deadline. However, he said he wanted to re-sign and we likely could have gotten him inked to a 2M deal if memory serves me right. Gainey chose not to, and we lost yet another good player to free agency.


And you're right, not every trade will work for us, not every trade will bring us back a good return. But the problem here is that we did not even trade them. Can't you understand that???
No attempt to negotiate with them during the season.
No attempt to trade them. Not even for negotiating rights.
Nothing. That is horrible management. There is no excuse for it.

Just a little FYI, we're also just talking about the D. The same damn thing happened with forwards. There is an embarrassing amount of players that we have lost to nothing, and others that we have waited to move when they reached their lowest value point. Inexcusable.


Last edited by Kriss E: 04-02-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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Old
04-02-2012, 12:47 PM
  #175
billy piton
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Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
I could list all the young players lost and are performing remarkably well; and we gave them away for almost free.

In last ten years, We have drafted very well, and found some real gem out of draft; yet, lot of young players are flourishing and making their mark with other teams

So, is this something that new management should look at and handle better? I really would like to see home grown prospects doing good with my team and not the leafs or the rangers...
bolded part is crucial. the habs have produced more current nhl players than any other nhl team. you can't have them all.

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