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Ryan Kesler is no longer " the same anymore" also because he has 1 point in the last 9 games, because he can't get even 50 for the year, because some Vancouver fans also were saying he isn't same any more, because in those 7 games when the other team keying in on him he disappears. Opinion of this poster from Vancouver for some reason is similar to my impressions:
I'm pretty sure you haven't seen even 6 Jackets games last year to make any judgement about Umberger's play. I just watched the Canucks-Flames game right and I would take last year Umburger over that #17 in blue. His creativity in offensive zone is next to zero. If he plays like that in the playoffs you gonna be really disappointed.
Good for you, we'll take that number 17.
He's been streaky this year for sure. Dominate a few weeks ago, invisible right now. Hopefully he catches stride, one must remember what he went through in the offseason.
Actually you agreed with the bolded part of my post that you quoted, with the emphasis being on the last four words
Trading Luongo presents a whole other set of interesting possibilities...
Ahh my bad I missed that on the first read. The point still stands though. If the Canucks want to make Schneider the starter next season there's nothing stopping them. They could theoretically keep both him and Luongo on the roster next season due to the cap structure of the team, but would need to ship one out afterwards when Burrows, Edler, Higgins and Lapierre need to be re-signed.
Both Schneider and Luongo want to be a starter, and they both will be by 2013 at the latest. If management wants to make Schneids the starter next season then Luongo will ask for a trade long before management has to approach him.
the Canuck hate on this board is crazy people ripping on Kesler now? my god, the guy came off a major offseason injury and was a beast for team USA and the Canucks, he has put up multiple 70+ seasons and he hasn't been bad for us this year at all. Kesler is a work horse and he didn't get to train at all in the offseason, I have no concerns with Kesler, he's all heart and everything you want in a player. I'd trade the Sedins before I'd trade Kesler. Kesler is the least of the Canucks worries and Keslers numbers may have dropped but so did the Sedins and most players in the West due to how defence 1st heavy it is over here now, oh yeah Canucks are now #1 in the West and 2nd in league well tied for 1st with NYR.
Lol wow I'd love to see what kind of return Vancouver actually gets for Schneider, if hes the one they actually end up trading (cough...Luongo to Toronto)
A 1a/b starter playing some sheltered games is not the centerpiece for a #1 overall pick.
I understand that its not the centerpiece in a trade for the number 1 overall but in all fairness schneider hasnt been sheltered by playing in soft games.
Why would CBJ trade the 1st overall for goaltending when they can acquire the same in a Nash deal or nab Josh Harding in free agency?
Harding is not in the same catergory as Schneider. Teams can plug holes all they want but sooner or later it'll just leak again. Schneider on the other hand... It's no miracle that teams with franchise goalies tend to make it into the playoffs on a consistent basis. The teams that fall short usually have inconsistent goaltending.
Harding is not in the same catergory as Schneider. Teams can plug holes all they want but sooner or later it'll just leak again. Schneider on the other hand... It's no miracle that teams with franchise goalies tend to make it into the playoffs on a consistent basis. The teams that fall short usually have inconsistent goaltending.
So you suggest Colombus should get a franchise goalie?
Schneider is not one.
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Franchise players may have some or all of the following specific characteristics:
They are signed to lucrative, multi-year contracts.
They may have "no-trade" or equivalent clauses written into their contracts, giving the player the power to veto any trade in which he is involved.
They may be promoted as the "face of the franchise" on a local and national basis. This can include the signing of product endorsement deals, media appearances and working with local charities.
Ryan Kesler is no longer " the same anymore" also because he has 1 point in the last 9 games, because he can't get even 50 for the year, because some Vancouver fans also were saying he isn't same any more, because in those 7 games when the other team keying in on him he disappears. Opinion of this poster from Vancouver for some reason is similar to my impressions:
I'm pretty sure you haven't seen even 6 Jackets games last year to make any judgement about Umberger's play. I just watched the Canucks-Flames game right and I would take last year Umburger over that #17 in blue. His creativity in offensive zone is next to zero. If he plays like that in the playoffs you gonna be really disappointed.
Kesler isn't a 50-point player just like Rick Nash isn't a 60-point player. Rick Nash also isn't the same player anymore either.
If you want to go in that direction, I can fight fire with fire.
Kesler isn't a 50-point player just like Rick Nash isn't a 60-point player. Rick Nash also isn't the same player anymore either.
If you want to go in that direction, I can fight fire with fire.
Here's nothing to argue about in your post, only the Nash part. When he plays with passion and desire he's still great player. Like he was in the last Detroit game. He's in different situation comparing to Kesler, it's hard to play when games are meaningless.
By the way Umberger scored 8 goals and 2 assists in the last 6 games. Whatever it worth.
Here's nothing to argue about in your post, only the Nash part. When he plays with passion and desire he's still great player. Like he was in the last Detroit game. He's in different situation comparing to Kesler, it's hard to play when games are meaningless.
Likewise with Kesler. When Kesler plays with passion and desire, he's a great player, as evidenced by his back-to-back 70 point seasons. And like Nash, Kesler has been playing in games where they have been meaningless, so he's scaled back his reckless abandon style of play.
So in other words, Kesler isn't in a different situation than Nash. Kesler is a 50-point player just like Nash is a 60-point player.
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By the way Umberger scored 8 goals and 2 assists in the last 6 games. Whatever it worth.
And Sam Gagner once had 11 points in 2 games this season. Whatever that's worth.
Harding is not in the same catergory as Schneider. Teams can plug holes all they want but sooner or later it'll just leak again. Schneider on the other hand... It's no miracle that teams with franchise goalies tend to make it into the playoffs on a consistent basis. The teams that fall short usually have inconsistent goaltending.
I'll agree that Schneider is a fair margin better than Harding, but with CBJ we're not talking about them being one piece away. Yakupov should be a ppg player at some point (maybe even during his ELC). Harding would be a considerable upgrade on their current goaltending. Those two combined are far more valuable than just Schneider.
Here's nothing to argue about in your post, only the Nash part. When he plays with passion and desire he's still great player. Like he was in the last Detroit game. He's in different situation comparing to Kesler, it's hard to play when games are meaningless.
By the way Umberger scored 8 goals and 2 assists in the last 6 games. Whatever it worth.
It's worth nothing because his games don't matter. Not surprising that guys like umberger play well when there's I pressure. Same with Rick Nash. He's heartless.
I always get a kick out of some of the nonsense that comes out when talking about Schneider. Probably my favourite one is when a team is being hamstrung by poor goaltending that they can simply go out in the offseason and sign whatever stop gap solution is available at the time to hold out until whatever prospect they have in the pipeline is ready. Yeah that can sometimes work, but you can also find yourself playing that game for a very long time. Vancouver did it for about 10 years between Kirk McLean and Roberto Luongo, same thing with Calgary between Mike Vernon and Mikka Kipprusoff, and right now a few teams like Toronto, Columbus, and Tampa Bay are going through these motions. This is why someone will pay for Schneider. You can keep playing spin the goalie wheel and hope to get lucky one of these years, or when a guy like Schneider becomes available you bite the bullet and spend. The price may hurt but when you can convert your goaltending from a position of weakness to a position of strength for the next 10 years, it's more than worth it. You don't always need a top goalie to be a playoff team, but there's a reason why teams with great goaltending find themselves in the playoff picture more often than not.
Now putting this into context with Columbus and the 1st-2nd overall pick? That really depends. It's brought up because of the rumours that the Blue Jackets could be shopping the pick. If they are it really depends on what your GM is looking at, and there are two basic possibilities here.
1. A big homerun 'overpayment' trade. The only kind of trade Columbus fans on here would expect, with Vancouver for example I think someone suggested Schneider+Kesler+Vancouver 2012 1st. It isn't actually uncommon that a team will say 'we're listening to offers for the first overall', but nothing ever comes of it because they're looking for something like the above. But nothing ever comes of it, because unless you're looking at the next Sydney Crosby no matter how talented the 1st overall is no successful team is going to remove core players from their locker room (like Kesler, Edler) for an 18 year old kid. Only time it may happen is when you get one of those years where a team like Philly decides they need a major shakeup and ships out guys like Carter and Richards.
2. Sacrifice future potential to increase the teams immediate competitiveness. Best examples of this would be:
NYI - 1st Overall (Spezza), Chara, to Ottawa for Yashin
TB - 3rd overall (J.Pitkanen) to PHI for R.Fedotenko, two 2nds
CAR - recent 3rd overall (J.Johnson) to LA for T.Gleason, E.Belanger
The first is classic Mike Milbury of course but the other two despite what fans thought at the time, especially on HFBoards where potential >>> everything, those trades didn't turn out too bad.
Since it's very unlikely any team will bite on #1, if Howson is serious about trading his draft pick for immediate help then in the context of #2 then yes a deal around Cory Schneider makes a whole lot of sense and could end up being the best offer he gets. I really doubt it will happen and agree that it's some wishful thinking from Canuck fans here, but it is what it is. Sometimes trades are as much about timing as they are value, which is why you trades often happen that if proposed on here a week before people would have laughed at. A Schneider + Van 1st + whatever for Clb 1st may not have the value, but the timing could be there.
Personally though I think Schneider will go to Tampa. Yzerman has more options to trade from, and more importantly they have a more immediate need for good goaltending. Columbus isn't going anywhere anytime soon so they should just keep their pick, but Tampa already has Stamkos while Lecavailer and St.Louis aren't getting any younger. Go with the status quo in net and they'll continue to be a bubble playoff team, put Schneider in net for them and they could be in the playoffs for the next 10 years.
I think based upon the trade value of goalies recently, the idea that the Jackets trade the #2 pick overall, with its potential (which is what they will value) for a goalie who has never played a full season worth of games is never going to happen.
Detroit ascribed to the same school for about 10 years, going through what seemed like a new goalie every single year.
It was a dismal failure...they only won three Stanley Cups, made it to another Final, and were in contention every single year.
hey if toronto have a lineup full of lidstrom, yzerman, federov, datsyuk, zetterberg, fetisov, hull, shanahan, chelios, konstantinov, larionov, kozlov, draper, kronwall, etc etc, by all means go grab some crappy goalie. heck, chicago won the cup with niemi in net, but they have toews, kane, keith, hossa, seabrook, bolland, sharp, byfuligien, etc etc. toronto have what exactly? kessel and...? if you want to go cheap in net with a roster like the leafs, you'll never make the playoff.
hey if toronto have a lineup full of lidstrom, yzerman, federov, datsyuk, zetterberg, fetisov, hull, shanahan, chelios, konstantinov, larionov, kozlov, draper, kronwall, etc etc, by all means go grab some crappy goalie. heck, chicago won the cup with niemi in net, but they have toews, kane, keith, hossa, seabrook, bolland, sharp, byfuligien, etc etc. toronto have what exactly? kessel and...? if you want to go cheap in net with a roster like the leafs, you'll never make the playoff.
I believe the point being made wasn't that the "goaltender of the year" approach was somehow some sort of way to be an automatic Cup contender; just that it's similarly not an automatic ticket to the draft lottery.
It's a strategy. It works for some and not for others based on what other personnel they have. It's not guaranteed wins or losses either way.
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Remember - when you're a hockey fan, it's not "reckless driving", it's "good forechecking".
"Viqsi, you are our sweet humanist..." --mt-svk on the CBJ boards
Thanks, Howson, for cleaning up MacLean's toxic waste. Welcome, Kekalainen; let's get good things built!
I always get a kick out of some of the nonsense that comes out when talking about Schneider. Probably my favourite one is when a team is being hamstrung by poor goaltending that they can simply go out in the offseason and sign whatever stop gap solution is available at the time to hold out until whatever prospect they have in the pipeline is ready. Yeah that can sometimes work, but you can also find yourself playing that game for a very long time. Vancouver did it for about 10 years between Kirk McLean and Roberto Luongo, same thing with Calgary between Mike Vernon and Mikka Kipprusoff, and right now a few teams like Toronto, Columbus, and Tampa Bay are going through these motions. This is why someone will pay for Schneider. You can keep playing spin the goalie wheel and hope to get lucky one of these years, or when a guy like Schneider becomes available you bite the bullet and spend. The price may hurt but when you can convert your goaltending from a position of weakness to a position of strength for the next 10 years, it's more than worth it. You don't always need a top goalie to be a playoff team, but there's a reason why teams with great goaltending find themselves in the playoff picture more often than not.
Now putting this into context with Columbus and the 1st-2nd overall pick? That really depends. It's brought up because of the rumours that the Blue Jackets could be shopping the pick. If they are it really depends on what your GM is looking at, and there are two basic possibilities here.
Schnieder for the 1st-2nd overall is hilarious. Seriously there is beyond zero chance, it's insanity. He will not return that, teams look at the past guys who went 1st. Of the past 10 1st overall picks is a single one worth Schneider in a trade? Eric Johnson, maybe... It's a very poor trade for Columbus, it might even cost the city the franchise. Schnieder would have to be the co-center piece at most for him to be in the conversation for the 1st.
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2. Sacrifice future potential to increase the teams immediate competitiveness. Best examples of this would be:
NYI - 1st Overall (Spezza), Chara, to Ottawa for Yashin
TB - 3rd overall (J.Pitkanen) to PHI for R.Fedotenko, two 2nds
CAR - recent 3rd overall (J.Johnson) to LA for T.Gleason, E.Belanger
The first is classic Mike Milbury of course but the other two despite what fans thought at the time, especially on HFBoards where potential >>> everything, those trades didn't turn out too bad.
I don't think there is any doubt these trades are actually evidence to the contrary, trading a high pick will almost certainly bite you in the ass big time. Those are all terrible deals to the teams that moved the pick. However the Jack Johnson trade is entirely irrelevant, as Johnson wasn't going to sign with Carolina. He wasn't traded at the draft to be the acquiring GM's pick of choice, and he wasn't moved because the team wanted to.
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Since it's very unlikely any team will bite on #1, if Howson is serious about trading his draft pick for immediate help then in the context of #2 then yes a deal around Cory Schneider makes a whole lot of sense and could end up being the best offer he gets. I really doubt it will happen and agree that it's some wishful thinking from Canuck fans here, but it is what it is. Sometimes trades are as much about timing as they are value, which is why you trades often happen that if proposed on here a week before people would have laughed at. A Schneider + Van 1st + whatever for Clb 1st may not have the value, but the timing could be there.
You're right if you're saying that GM's can be really stupid and can feel coerced by predicament. Your also right in saying #2 is much more likely, but the chances are so minute still and reliant upon incompetence that nobody could realisticly expect it to happen.
I think you make some good points on goaltending and fleshed out the most realistic scenario, however i still think you are defending a pipe dream. Schnieder returning that high a pick would be shocking to me.
Schnieder for the 1st-2nd overall is hilarious. Seriously there is beyond zero chance, it's insanity. He will not return that, teams look at the past guys who went 1st. Of the past 10 1st overall picks is a single one worth Schneider in a trade? Eric Johnson, maybe... It's a very poor trade for Columbus, it might even cost the city the franchise. Schnieder would have to be the co-center piece at most for him to be in the conversation for the 1st.
The deal to make Nationwide Arena publicly owned closed a few days back, so our odds of getting relocated just dropped to somewhere around the same level as that of Pittsburgh. That said... yeah, it's a bad, bad, bad idea for us.
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44
However the Jack Johnson trade is entirely irrelevant, as Johnson wasn't going to sign with Carolina. He wasn't traded at the draft to be the acquiring GM's pick of choice, and he wasn't moved because the team wanted to.
To be fair, the issue with JMFJ wasn't exactly "he wasn't going to sign with Carolina", it was more "he wasn't going to sign with Carolina that year" - that's why Gleason was targeted in the deal. But the point otherwise stands.
Harding is not in the same catergory as Schneider. Teams can plug holes all they want but sooner or later it'll just leak again. Schneider on the other hand... 
It's no miracle that teams with franchise goalies tend to make it into the playoffs on a consistent basis. The teams that fall short usually have inconsistent goaltending.
