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Could Chara win another Norris?

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Old
03-31-2012, 09:50 PM
  #26
Dennis Bonvie
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Karlsson should win it.

Weber will win it.

Chara has great numbers but lets be honest, he has had a very up and down season.
That said, most of the voters only see the highlites and the numbers so Chara could concievable win it.

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03-31-2012, 09:52 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
Did you know that Karlsson doesn't kill penalties and is suspect defensively?
Do you know that Karlsson is MASSIVELY better than anyone else including Chara in terms of vision, skill, shot, IQ, hockey sense and skating?

And he is not defensively suspect. How else is he a +19 playing 25:15 TOI on a team that is close to neutral in goal differential??

Were Chara uses his reach and size, Karlsson uses his speed to shut the top players down, and play significantly more 5 on 5 than Chara does. No one, and I mean NO ONE walks or skates by Karlsson. He even runs down Kovalchuk or Hossa in a position that would be a clear breakaway on just about any other player.

I have seen Chara get walked and make some brutal mistakes this season.

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03-31-2012, 09:54 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by BigBadBruin8 View Post
Karlsson is an unbelievable player, but he should not be in Norris contention, though I think he will be.

Karlsson doesn't kill penalties. He averages :32s of SH/TOI per game. That's usually when he gets put on the ice for the final 10s of a PK too.

This is JMO, but any defenseman who doesn't kill penalties should not be eligible to be the "best defenseman" in the league. You can't be the best at something when you flat out don't participate in one of the biggest aspects of being a defenseman.

I worry that since Karlsson so excels at the offensive aspects of being a defenseman that he will end up a finalist, which he shouldn't really be either, but I'm confident that the writers who vote for the awards will "reward" him in the sense that he was a finalist but be smart enough not to actually give it to him.

Chara's the best all-around defenseman in the league right now, and that's the nature of the Norris Trophy. He deserves to win it, and I think he will.
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
There is no way Chara shouldn't win this. A d-man that doesn't kill penalties shouldn't even be in the conversation. I don't care how many points he has.

I'm going to guess that many people would say Chara is the best "shut-down" defenseman of the past few years (assuming you guys consider him so), yet Lidstrom won the Norris last year, and the best shut-down defenseman doesn't always win the Norris. There's other factors, such as scoring, that you have acknowledged.

This is where people need to decide how big of a gap in scoring can fill in the the perceived void of lack of defense.

Is it 10 points? Is it 20 points? Is it 30 points? It's probably different for a lot of people. That's where the voters need to make their distinction and decided how many more points in scoring can fill the gap in defensive play.


Also, I do understand the knock on Karlsson not playing a lot of PK time, but that's a great strategy by the Senators. Why would you waste his TOI by killing penalties when they can save him for the PP? Now, you'll claim that PK is what separates defensmen, yet at the same time points can separate them too.

It's a similar argument about Thomas and his Vezina awards. Most people here would be up in arms when fans of other teams would claim he hasn't played enough games, then fans here would say, "It's not his fault that Thomas has a great back-up", which is very true. I don't think you can penalize him for having a great back-up, just as I don't think you can really penalize Karlsson for his coach playing him on the PP a lot more than the PK. The situations aren't exactly the same, but the point remains. However, people here will want to put points aside for the Norris debate, and that's just not how it works.

Personally, I would vote for Chara, but Karlsson isn't as far off as people want it to be.

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03-31-2012, 10:03 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by 4thliner View Post


Hater's gonna hate.

Do you know Karlsson @ 21 plays more TOI than Chara? Some good 10-15 sec per that Chara's 25:06 and is +19?


It must be nice having a 4th forward on the ice for so much time.

We are talking about defensemen here.

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03-31-2012, 10:09 PM
  #30
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Chara will win it, without question.

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03-31-2012, 10:09 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastNiner View Post
I'm going to guess that many people would say Chara is the best "shut-down" defenseman of the past few years (assuming you guys consider him so), yet Lidstrom won the Norris last year, and the best shut-down defenseman doesn't always win the Norris. There's other factors, such as scoring, that you have acknowledged.

This is where people need to decide how big of a gap in scoring can fill in the the perceived void of lack of defense.

Is it 10 points? Is it 20 points? Is it 30 points? It's probably different for a lot of people. That's where the voters need to make their distinction and decided how many more points in scoring can fill the gap in defensive play.


Also, I do understand the knock on Karlsson not playing a lot of PK time, but that's a great strategy by the Senators. Why would you waste his TOI by killing penalties when they can save him for the PP? Now, you'll claim that PK is what separates defensmen, yet at the same time points can separate them too.

It's a similar argument about Thomas and his Vezina awards. Most people here would be up in arms when fans of other teams would claim he hasn't played enough games, then fans here would say, "It's not his fault that Thomas has a great back-up", which is very true. I don't think you can penalize him for having a great back-up, just as I don't think you can really penalize Karlsson for his coach playing him on the PP a lot more than the PK. The situations aren't exactly the same, but the point remains. However, people here will want to put points aside for the Norris debate, and that's just not how it works.

Personally, I would vote for Chara, but Karlsson isn't as far off as people want it to be.

Usually, if you have the best d-man in the League, you use him in ALL situations, because he is the best. Like the way the Bruins use Chara.

Mike Green didn't win the Norris scoring 30 goals 3 years ago and I doubt Karlsson will win it this year.

Tim Thomas won the Vezina last year playing less games, but still ended up with only 3 less wins than the leader.


Last edited by patty59: 03-31-2012 at 10:23 PM.
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Old
03-31-2012, 10:10 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thliner View Post
Do you know that Karlsson is MASSIVELY better than anyone else including Chara in terms of vision, skill, shot, IQ, hockey sense and skating?

And he is not defensively suspect. How else is he a +19 playing 25:15 TOI on a team that is close to neutral in goal differential??

Were Chara uses his reach and size, Karlsson uses his speed to shut the top players down, and play significantly more 5 on 5 than Chara does. No one, and I mean NO ONE walks or skates by Karlsson. He even runs down Kovalchuk or Hossa in a position that would be a clear breakaway on just about any other player.

I have seen Chara get walked and make some brutal mistakes this season.
No one skates by Karlsson?

This is a joke, right?

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03-31-2012, 10:12 PM
  #33
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I can't believe there aren't a ton of Ottawa fans in here already arguing for Karlsson but there is no question to me that Chara should win. The only question should be who of Weber, Karlsson, Pietrangelo gets 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

Of the 3 out of 4 who kill penalties, Hit and block shots (not Karlsson); Chara is the clear winner offensively. Chara has 1.25 even strength points per 60 minutes to .87 for Weber and .89 for Pietrangelo. Chara leads Weber in PP points per 60 as well. Pietrangelo has Chara beat in this category.

Given the same ice time of 20 Even strength minutes and 3 1/2 minutes of PP time per game over 82 games Chara would have 60 points to 53 for Pietrangelo and 44 for Weber. While I don't buy into Corsi too much Chara has a good margin in Corsi, Relative Corsi and Relative Corsi QOC over Pietrangelo. Weber leads Chara in Relative Corsi QOC but Chara obliterates Weber in Corsi. Combined with his offensive advantage Chara is the clear winner of these three, which brings me to Karlsson.

The only reason Karlsson leads in points is because he gets more even strength and powerplay time, doesn't kill penalties and gets 57.1 % offensive zone starts. Chara only gets 48.6 offensive zone starts. Chara leads in hits by over 100, blocked shots by 25, leads in Corsi, Relative Corsi, and Corsi Relative QOC.
Giving them both even ice time like I did above would bring Karlsson's points lead down to just 9 points. Who would win then?

What if you reversed their minutes so that Chara has more even strength and PP time which Karlsson gets because he doesn't have to kill penalties? Chara would actually lead in points over 82 games by 2 points.

The only other stat that Karlsson has an advantage is Takeaway/Giveaway Ratio and these numbers need to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Chara is only credited with 27 takeaways and that is after 5 in the last 2 games. I don't know who is doing this stat for Chara but there is no way he doesn't average at least 1 per game. His numbers should be comparable to the other top defensemen. I think he has 27 takeaways just on Phil Kessel this year.

Now despite Chara's production numbers bringing him close or even better than Karlsson given equal or switching minutes; I don't want to take away the fact that Karlsson does in fact have a 26 point lead over Chara. This has been the main argument that Karlsson should win it because he has such a big lead. Let's not forget that when Chara won his Norris, he was actually 12th in D scoring and 23 points behind Mike Green. Green also had a bunch of better numbers than Karlsson including plus/minus, hits, blocked shots, and actually killed about 2 1/2 minutes in penalties per game. So Chara has already overcome a similar situation to win a Norris because he is so much better defensively.

This really shouldn't be a contest at all but I'm not sure that I have faith in the voters to do the right thing again.

Fake edit - I see that by the time I have typed this the Karlsson supporters have started to arrive

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03-31-2012, 10:12 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thliner View Post
Do you know that Karlsson is MASSIVELY better than anyone else including Chara in terms of vision, skill, shot, IQ, hockey sense and skating?

And he is not defensively suspect. How else is he a +19 playing 25:15 TOI on a team that is close to neutral in goal differential??

Were Chara uses his reach and size, Karlsson uses his speed to shut the top players down, and play significantly more 5 on 5 than Chara does. No one, and I mean NO ONE walks or skates by Karlsson. He even runs down Kovalchuk or Hossa in a position that would be a clear breakaway on just about any other player.

I have seen Chara get walked and make some brutal mistakes this season.

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03-31-2012, 10:20 PM
  #35
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I love watching Karlsson play. He deserves to win the Norris as much as Mike Green deserved to win it in his two standout scoring seasons. This is an award that should go to the best overall/most impactful defenseman. Karlsson impacts the game at one end of the ice. He doesn't kill penalties and doesn't shutdown the oppositions best players.

It'll be Weber or Chara this year IMO.

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03-31-2012, 10:28 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
Usually, if you have the best d-man in the League, you use him in ALL situations, because he is the best. Like the way the Bruins use Chara.

Mike Green didn't win the Norris scoring 30 goals 3 years ago and I doubt Karlsson will win it this year.

Tim Thomas won the Vezina last year playing less games, but still ended up with only 3 less wins than the leader.
There's no need to use him on the PK when they can save him for ES and the PP. There's no need to wear him out.

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03-31-2012, 10:32 PM
  #37
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It's a mixup between Chara, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, and Weber imo.

So Lidstrom wins.

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03-31-2012, 10:38 PM
  #38
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I thought he should have won it last year more than this year. He does have great stats at the end of the year, but he really did struggle in that slump. To me it's a toss-up between him, Pietrangelo and Weber (the forward better not win it...).

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03-31-2012, 10:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by EastCoastNiner View Post
There's no need to use him on the PK when they can save him for ES and the PP. There's no need to wear him out.
If it was just a question of wearing him out you could reduce his ES time by a minute or two to compensate for some PK. The fact that Ottawa doesn't do this tells me the coaches there think there are better options on that roster to us in PK situations. Should be an automatic DQ for Norris contention. If there was a Paul Coffey award Karlsson would win that in a walk. But there isn't, so he gets to be the runner up for the Norris.

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03-31-2012, 10:59 PM
  #40
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so, is the norris for the best defensive defensman, or is it for the best player at that position? There is no doubt that chara and a gaggle of other defensman are better than karlsson in their own zone, but the offense that krlsson has produced from that position is realy impressive and is hard to over look. As much as it annoys me, karlsson will probably win this year, unless chara puts up like 10 points in the next 4 games

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03-31-2012, 11:13 PM
  #41
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If it was just a question of wearing him out you could reduce his ES time by a minute or two to compensate for some PK. The fact that Ottawa doesn't do this tells me the coaches there think there are better options on that roster to us in PK situations. Should be an automatic DQ for Norris contention. If there was a Paul Coffey award Karlsson would win that in a walk. But there isn't, so he gets to be the runner up for the Norris.
There's no use to reduce his ES time and increase his PK time when he's more valuable on the ES/PP then the PK.

Again, I think Chara should win it, but people are selling Karlsson short.

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03-31-2012, 11:19 PM
  #42
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Chara has turned it up a notch of late. He's getting into postseason mode and it's rubbing off on the rest of the team.
Yup

He went through that ugly stretch im sure we all remember. But he has been excellent lately. If he had played like his current level all year he has the trophy on lock

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03-31-2012, 11:21 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by EastCoastNiner View Post
There's no use to reduce his ES time and increase his PK time when he's more valuable on the ES/PP then the PK.

Again, I think Chara should win it, but people are selling Karlsson short.
You use your best defensemen on the PK. Period.

There is no ifs, ands, or buts, or other excuses. If you are a defensemen of any worth you play on the PK. It has been that way since the beginning of the game.

Karlsson is exactly what Mike Green was a few years ago. A 4th forward. If he wins the Norris Trophy the award will be tarnished forever. And don't bring me the "Paul Coffey" argument, I've heard it and it holds no bearing. Coffey may not have been a Ray Bourque in the defensive aspect of the game, but he wasn't as bad as many people like to remember.

I'd give the Norris trophy to Lidstrom and his mediocre year, 10 times out of 10 if it was a competition between he and Karlsson. And Lidstrom doesn't deserve to come any where near Orr's 8 Norris Trophy's.

This should be Chara's award to win this year, but Pietrangelo, Weber, Suter, Lidstrom all deserve this award more than Karlsson.

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03-31-2012, 11:22 PM
  #44
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It's a mixup between Chara, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, and Weber imo.

So Lidstrom wins.
lol

I bet the nominees are Karlsson, Chara, and Weber this year

I dont really watch the wings ever but from the sounds of it Lidstrom has been just average this year

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03-31-2012, 11:35 PM
  #45
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I think he could definitely win another one and should be nominated this year although I have a sneaky feeling Weber will win. Karlsson is amazing though and he will eventually win one

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04-01-2012, 12:03 AM
  #46
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Without question for me, Chara is the best defenseman in hockey today. He's no Ray Bourque, but even Lidstrom at his best was never a Bourque (just look at Hart voting to prove it - no one's ever really thought of Lidstrom as possibly the best player). Chara's the best all around defenseman right now.

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04-01-2012, 12:09 AM
  #47
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Playoffs start in a week. If you could keep chara or take karlsson what would it be? There's your answer... it's easy for me.

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04-01-2012, 02:33 AM
  #48
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I remember Lucic skating right past Karlsson pretty easily late in one game and Jack Edwards calling Karlsson out on it.

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04-01-2012, 02:53 AM
  #49
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I remember Lucic skating right past Karlsson pretty easily late in one game and Jack Edwards calling Karlsson out on it.
Not just skating past, but Karlsson moved out of the way.

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04-01-2012, 03:00 AM
  #50
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Every year when polled, the players themselves say that Chara is the most difficult defenseman to play against. So, it's pretty clear that he's the best defensive defenseman in the NHL and ought to be a Norris finalist.

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