HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Boston Bruins
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Could Chara win another Norris?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-01-2012, 12:18 PM
  #76
Cheesy
Registered User
 
Cheesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Londonderry, NH
Country: United States
Posts: 3,556
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thliner View Post


Hater's gonna hate.

Do you know Karlsson @ 21 plays more TOI than Chara? Some good 10-15 sec per that Chara's 25:06 and is +19?
The fact that he plays more TOI is negligible. He's like half Chara's age, he should be able to play more minutes.

He also plays way easier minutes than Chara and doesn't kill penalties, so there's that too. Nice try though.

Cheesy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 12:22 PM
  #77
Cheesy
Registered User
 
Cheesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Londonderry, NH
Country: United States
Posts: 3,556
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boston Bruno View Post
You give chara credit for big offensive numbers, but they are dwarfed by what Karlsson has done.
26 points ahead of Chara

If it was 10 points it could be overlooked - 15-20 you start to ask questions - 25+?

That what? 50% more production points wise?

I am really amazed how easily everyone is dismissing Karlssons offensive dominance for the sens.
Of ottawas 234 gf, the guy has a hand in almost 33 percent of the teams offense.
Yes but the Norris is for best DEFENSEman remember? Paul Coffey put up buttloads of points his whole career too, but he wasn't a great DEFENSEMAN.

Cheesy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 12:23 PM
  #78
patty59
***************
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lethbridge, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,126
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCL40 View Post
Lidstrom IMO goes down in the books as one of the best defensemen to play in the NHL but Lidstrom received a career achievement award last year and didn't earn his Norris in a year when I think Weber should have gotten it.

This is one reason I think Weber may get the nod-voters know they cheated him last year and will give it to him this year to make up for it.
That would be even worse than giving it to Lidstrom last year IMO.

They made a mistake last year, a big one. Acknowledge it, move one and don't let it happen again.

patty59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 12:30 PM
  #79
Boston Bruno
Registered User
 
Boston Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,950
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesy View Post
Yes but the Norris is for best DEFENSEman remember? Paul Coffey put up buttloads of points his whole career too, but he wasn't a great DEFENSEMAN.
but he did win the norris twice..

I am saying that people are way to dismissive of the sheer quantity of points between the two guys.

When do you draw the line and say "yeah, this is a good example?"

He have to be 100 point D man with a 50 point spread?

Boston Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 01:00 PM
  #80
TCL40
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 18,072
vCash: 500
I think points totals matter for the Norris only when things like killing penalties, being matched against top lines in a shutdown role and having similar defensive zone start stats are relatively even.

When I think of defensema-especially Norris caliber I think of the guys who are the best at keeping the other team from putting the puck in the net, not the guys who are called defensemen but spend a lot of time putting the puck in the net while skating easier minutes than the shutdown guy (PP minutes are much easier minutes than PK minutes).

TCL40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 02:13 PM
  #81
jgatie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,966
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boston Bruno View Post
but he did win the norris twice..

I am saying that people are way to dismissive of the sheer quantity of points between the two guys.

When do you draw the line and say "yeah, this is a good example?"

He have to be 100 point D man with a 50 point spread?
Correction, Paul Coffey won the Norris three times, the first one was his fifth season in the league, with 121 pts and a +55, coming off 89, 96 and 126 pt seasons. When Karlsson strings together a run like that, we can forget about his defensive lapses too. And I'm one who thinks Coffey deserved those Norris's about as much as he deserved 3 Vezinas, but he certainly deserved them more than Karlsson.

jgatie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 02:31 PM
  #82
Guiledoom
Formerly JRull86
 
Guiledoom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The Bing, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 11,037
vCash: 500
Karlsson winning it this year would be akin to if Mike Green won it over Chara a few years ago. Is Karlsson having a great season? Absolutely. However the guy is a purely offensive DMan who doesn't kill penalties.


Maybe I'm old school, but that isn't Norris caliber, when the next guy is the complete package. Killz penalties, plays tough minutes, plays a ton of minutes has the 2nd highest +/- on his team and in the league overall, oh and isn't leaps and bounds behind in terms of overall points.

Yes there is a bias here because Chara is on my team, but the guy is a flat out better defenseman than Karlsson, and that's what the award is for isn't it

Guiledoom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 02:36 PM
  #83
BigBadBruin8
@rsox1221
 
BigBadBruin8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Shrewsbury, MA
Country: Ireland
Posts: 8,458
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to BigBadBruin8
Karlsson's point totals are incredible, no one denies that.

However, winning the Norris trophy is not a contest to see which defenseman has the most points, or by how many points he leads his next closest competitor.

That is not a relevant point to bring up when the case being made is for "best defenseman" in the NHL. Maybe it seems like it, but I'm sorry, it isn't.

Maybe there truly has come a time to give an award to the best offensive defensman in the NHL; that would solve this problem straight away.

But as of right now that award doesn't exist. The one that does is awarded to the best all-around defenseman in the league. And a defenseman who is average to slightly above average in his own zone and DOES NOT KILL PENALTIES should not be in consideration.

__________________
"The only thing that beats winning [in Toronto] is winning in Montreal.--Aaron Ward

"I've gotta go run some little French guys over."--Shawn Thornton

BigBadBruin8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 02:37 PM
  #84
Alberta_OReilly_Fan
Bruin fan since 1975
 
Alberta_OReilly_Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Edmonton Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,182
vCash: 500
chara did sort of struggle for 20-25 games while the team struggled too and ultimately if he doesnt win this will be what costs him the nod. the award is his to win or lose this year. the other 'standout 'top contenders are too young to take the tropy on their own merits and ultimately wont have a chance for it imho

rightly or wrongly the history of this trophy proves it is one that the voters hand out more like a 'life time achievement' award then as a measure of one singular great season. other then randy carlyle and maybe duncan keith im not sure i can remember any winner of the award that didn't win cause he had been 'overlooked' for awhile. i guess keith won cause no one was in the 'overlooked' catagory for him to go up against.

this year you can make a case for both chara and weber being in the overlooked catagory though. its a travesty that chara doesnt have as many as 3 trophys by now and time is running out on him to get his due recognition for his career. its probably also a travesty that weber has no trophies yet despite being the best young dman in the nhl for at least the past 3 years now

karlsson for me fits into the brian phil housley/mike green school of offensive dmen way more then he would fit into the raymond bourque/nicklas lidstrom school. at least for now. 60-70-80 point single seasons by a kid dman dont necessarily norris trophy winner make. even bouque and lidstrom didnt start getting their trophies until they had done it for a few years either

but then dont get me wrong about karlsson... if he was on our team, id sure welcome him here with open arms and be damn happy to see him running our offense. hes one really great little player. no way he deserves the norris when you look at all the evidence/reality that goes with that award, but he is definitely worthy of being respected and admired for his amazing offensive talent.

all-in-all i would say the winner this year for the award comes down between chara and weber. chara had the big stretch of slumping hockey but his highs were higher then weber's this year. weber seems to have avoided the slump but didnt elevate his game to elite levels by his own standards. both guys are worthy based on their total skill level and history though and both had seasons where they were among top 10 dmen in both offensive side of the game and defensive side and probably physical side and maybe even leadership side... so if either chara or weber get the trophy there will be a deseriving winner for it

Alberta_OReilly_Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 02:54 PM
  #85
misterjaggers
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Duke City
Country: United States
Posts: 14,273
vCash: 500
Karlsson ranks a lowly 168th in SH TOI!

Going all the way back to 1998, virtually every player who's won the award was a first pairing penalty killer. Nobody, going back to 1998, had virtually no role on the PK, like Karlsson. It might be argued that Lidstrom last season was a 2nd pairing penalty killer because he was 3rd in SH TOI among Red Wings defensemen, but he still ranked 33rd in the league.

Year Rank Player SH TOI
1998 1 Blake 5
1998 2 Lidstrom 4
1998 3 Pronger 13
1998 4 Stevens 2
1998 5 Niedermayer 74
1999 1 MacInnis 1
1999 2 Lidstrom 11
1999 3 Bourque 4
1999 4 Pronger 3
1999 5 Desjardins 64
2000 1 Pronger 1
2000 2 Lidstrom 3
2000 3 Blake 8
2000 4 Desjardins 32
2000 5 Gonchar 169
2001 1 Lidstrom 1
2001 2 Bourque 13
2001 3 Stevens 7
2001 4 Blake 31
2001 5 Leetch 6
2002 1 Lidstrom 4
2002 2 Chelios 5
2002 3 Blake 23
2002 4 Gonchar 187
2002 5 Pronger 2
2003 1 Lidstrom 1
2003 2 MacInnis 24
2003 3 Hatcher 9
2003 4 Gonchar 139
2003 5 Blake 18
2004 1 Niedermayer 47
2004 2 Chara 13
2004 3 Pronger 6
2004 4 McCabe 18
2004 5 Aucoin 4
2006 1 Lidstrom 5
2006 2 Niedermayer 28
2006 3 Zubov 26
2006 4 Chara 9
2006 5 Redden 102
2007 1 Lidstrom 6
2007 2 Niedermayer 19
2007 3 Pronger 67
2007 4 Boyle 175
2007 5 Timonen 59
2008 1 Lidstrom 17
2008 2 Phaneuf 55
2008 3 Chara 23
2008 4 Gonchar 16
2008 5 Campbell 62
2009 1 Chara 23
2009 2 Green 94
2009 3 Lidstrom 21
2009 4 Weber 120
2009 5 Boyle 99
2010 1 Keith 21
2010 2 Green 87
2010 3 Doughty 86
2011 1 Lindstrom 33
2011 2 Weber 70
2011 3 Chara 22

- Hockey Outsider http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=758940


Last edited by misterjaggers: 04-01-2012 at 05:56 PM.
misterjaggers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 03:26 PM
  #86
TCL40
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 18,072
vCash: 500
Once again-I just don't think you are a key defenseman if you aren't killing penalties-one of the most important jobs IMO a defenseman does. YOu don't have to have a good defenseman on your PP (shoot there are teams that run it with 5 forwards).

I think when it comes to the Norris points totals should be the tie breaker where all other things are mostly or relatively even.

TCL40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 03:48 PM
  #87
almostawake
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,314
vCash: 500
Weber is Chara's competition this year, not Karlsson. Karlsson has absolutely no chance. Anyone who's looked closely at Norris voting knows this to be true.

Historical data shows that voters would much rather give a player the Norris a year late rather than a year early. Furthermore, it's been more than 15 years since a player won the Norris in the first season they received a vote.

Weber, on the other hand, has slowly been building a base of votes over the last 3 seasons.

If Chara finishes the season second in defenceman scoring I'd give him a slight edge over Weber. What will hurt Chara this season is his TOI/G number is down.

almostawake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 03:52 PM
  #88
Cheesy
Registered User
 
Cheesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Londonderry, NH
Country: United States
Posts: 3,556
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boston Bruno View Post
but he did win the norris twice..

I am saying that people are way to dismissive of the sheer quantity of points between the two guys.

When do you draw the line and say "yeah, this is a good example?"

He have to be 100 point D man with a 50 point spread?
No, he'd have to be a superior defenseman. And he's not even close.

Cheesy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 04:29 PM
  #89
Trap Jesus
Registered User
 
Trap Jesus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,566
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by almostawake View Post
Weber is Chara's competition this year, not Karlsson.
I'd say Pietrangelo is there as well. Those three SHOULD be the finalists.

Trap Jesus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 06:21 PM
  #90
NinthSpoke06
Registered User
 
NinthSpoke06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Chestnut Hill
Country: United States
Posts: 9,610
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by almostawake View Post
Weber is Chara's competition this year, not Karlsson. Karlsson has absolutely no chance. Anyone who's looked closely at Norris voting knows this to be true.

Historical data shows that voters would much rather give a player the Norris a year late rather than a year early. Furthermore, it's been more than 15 years since a player won the Norris in the first season they received a vote.

Weber, on the other hand, has slowly been building a base of votes over the last 3 seasons.

If Chara finishes the season second in defenceman scoring I'd give him a slight edge over Weber. What will hurt Chara this season is his TOI/G number is down.
Weber playing with Suter, another guy many would consider a "top 10" finalist for the award. Both have their pitfalls.

If Karlsson wins the award this year, it will be tarnished forever. The award will never mean the same thing it used to mean when guys like Orr and Bourque were winning it.

Now don't get me wrong, he has been fantastic this year. Those point totals really are amazing. He just doesn't fit the billing of a Norris trophy winner.

NinthSpoke06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 08:16 PM
  #91
missingchicklet
Registered User
 
missingchicklet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,060
vCash: 500
Karlsson winning the Norris would be utterly laughable. He's a defenseman in name only. Sure, he's a good player, but he's not a good defender. Chara is still the best defender in the league.

missingchicklet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-01-2012, 10:22 PM
  #92
Mr. Make-Believe
Moderator
Pass me another nail
 
Mr. Make-Believe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Erotic Fantasies
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,733
vCash: 500
...

I think Karlsson is better in his own zone than a lot of people here give him credit for. He's hardly a fourth forward or whatever some would like to call him. He's also continually improving in this area - Karlsson is a LOT better in his own zone than he even was at the beginning of the season. Not going to take long for him to be the top blueliner in the league IMO.

BUT

I have a disqualifier for the Norris trophy that some don't. And that is, if you don't kill penalties - you don't win the Norris trophy.

He WILL one day. But he doesn't now.

While Chara has had his moments of ineffectiveness this season, for the vast majority of the time, he's been the best defenseman in the NHL. Not only do I believe he's the frontrunner... I'd say he's a cinch for the Norris.

I'll say the same for Bergeron and the Selke. The Bruins are winning two individual awards this year.

Mr. Make-Believe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 09:06 AM
  #93
TheShoe82
No Diving!
 
TheShoe82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Watertown, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,341
vCash: 500
I have a solution to the debate:

Karlsson: Calder Trophy

Chara: Norris

Problem solved :-)

TheShoe82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 09:19 AM
  #94
CamFan81
HF Snob Agitator
 
CamFan81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: RI
Country: United States
Posts: 18,235
vCash: 500
this award aggravates me...
Offensive numbers should be used more as a tie breaking stat than being equal in value to Defensive ability. I mean, whats a defensemen's #1 responsibility?

CamFan81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 09:52 AM
  #95
Paddington
Registered User
 
Paddington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,849
vCash: 500
Most awards in sports are based on reputation instead of actual performance. That’s why Bergeron seems to be the front runner for the Selke this year. We all new that he was a great defensive forward but it wasn’t until the cup run that the league took notice. Being outside the Boston area, about half of my Centre Ice feeds are from the other team and everybody mentions him being a Selke favourite.

What I’m getting at here is that voters look at 3 things. In no particular order: 1) Points 2) Reputation 3) Defensive Ability. Mike Green proved that you can have a great offensive season and not win the Norris. That year, Chara was way down the list of scoring by a defenseman and he still won the award. Based on Chara’s point total, reputation, and defensive ability I think he definitely could win.

The one thing that might throw a wrench into the plans is the recent (within the past year or two) hype about “look how far ahead he was from the second place guy”. That argument seems to be gaining momentum in sports so it might tip the balance in Karlsson’s favour.

Paddington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 09:58 AM
  #96
Kate08
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Kate08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Medford MA
Country: United States
Posts: 17,773
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
Most awards in sports are based on reputation instead of actual performance. That’s why Bergeron seems to be the front runner for the Selke this year. We all new that he was a great defensive forward but it wasn’t until the cup run that the league took notice. Being outside the Boston area, about half of my Centre Ice feeds are from the other team and everybody mentions him being a Selke favourite.

What I’m getting at here is that voters look at 3 things. In no particular order: 1) Points 2) Reputation 3) Defensive Ability. Mike Green proved that you can have a great offensive season and not win the Norris. That year, Chara was way down the list of scoring by a defenseman and he still won the award. Based on Chara’s point total, reputation, and defensive ability I think he definitely could win.

The one thing that might throw a wrench into the plans is the recent (within the past year or two) hype about “look how far ahead he was from the second place guy”. That argument seems to be gaining momentum in sports so it might tip the balance in Karlsson’s favour.
I know this is not the basis of your post, but are you saying Bergeron has not put in a Selke-worthy campaign this year, and any consideration he is getting is based on his play in last year's playoffs?

Kate08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 10:05 AM
  #97
yogibear
Registered User
 
yogibear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 150
vCash: 500
At the same age, Karlsson is about 3 years ahead of Chara, which size is the main reason why is doing well in the NHL, not talent. A much smaller Chara is probably no longer a 'Norris' candidate.

Will Karlsson win the Norris? Maybe, maybe not. Just the fact that is a candidate so young is amazing. And he is not playing with a team full of experience like Chara !!!

yogibear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 10:12 AM
  #98
Paddington
Registered User
 
Paddington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,849
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
I know this is not the basis of your post, but are you saying Bergeron has not put in a Selke-worthy campaign this year, and any consideration he is getting is based on his play in last year's playoffs?
Oh no. Not at all. I think he has been worthy of a nomination for the past few years. Yzerman noticed it in 2010. The voters did not until last year. I think Bergy legitimately deserves to be a favorite. I'm just saying voters might not pay attention until a player finally gets the hype he deserves. Bergy's play in the playoffs put everybody on notice. His play this year has reinforced everybody's belief.

Paddington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 10:27 AM
  #99
CamFan81
HF Snob Agitator
 
CamFan81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: RI
Country: United States
Posts: 18,235
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogibear View Post
At the same age, Karlsson is about 3 years ahead of Chara, which size is the main reason why is doing well in the NHL, not talent. A much smaller Chara is probably no longer a 'Norris' candidate.

Will Karlsson win the Norris? Maybe, maybe not. Just the fact that is a candidate so young is amazing. And he is not playing with a team full of experience like Chara !!!
lol
Some of you are making it easier to dislike the sens come playoff time

CamFan81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-02-2012, 10:39 AM
  #100
WBC8
Registered User
 
WBC8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 37,257
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to WBC8
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogibear View Post
At the same age, Karlsson is about 3 years ahead of Chara, which size is the main reason why is doing well in the NHL, not talent. A much smaller Chara is probably no longer a 'Norris' candidate.

Will Karlsson win the Norris? Maybe, maybe not. Just the fact that is a candidate so young is amazing. And he is not playing with a team full of experience like Chara !!!
he also has nowhere near the responsibilty of Chara.

WBC8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:10 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.