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Could Chara win another Norris?

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04-02-2012, 09:41 AM
  #101
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Karlsson winning the Norris would he as comical as Langway winning it...Screwed Bourque out of two more of them. How a "defensive" defenseman could have a +/- of 0 and a little north of 30 points win the award is the worst miscarriage of justice ever.

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04-02-2012, 10:11 AM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yogibear View Post
A much smaller Chara is probably no longer a 'Norris' candidate.
That's like saying a smaller Shaq wouldn't be headed for the HOF. His size is part of his dominance. You can't knock him for it.

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04-02-2012, 10:27 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by yogibear View Post
At the same age, Karlsson is about 3 years ahead of Chara, which size is the main reason why is doing well in the NHL, not talent. A much smaller Chara is probably no longer a 'Norris' candidate.

Will Karlsson win the Norris? Maybe, maybe not. Just the fact that is a candidate so young is amazing. And he is not playing with a team full of experience like Chara !!!
Jeez, this could quite possibly be the stupidest thing said on this board all year. And boy have there been some doozies this year.

Enjoy your toy, but keep him out of the Norris discussions. This is an award for defensemen.

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04-02-2012, 11:02 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yogibear View Post
At the same age, Karlsson is about 3 years ahead of Chara, which size is the main reason why is doing well in the NHL, not talent. A much smaller Chara is probably no longer a 'Norris' candidate.

Will Karlsson win the Norris? Maybe, maybe not. Just the fact that is a candidate so young is amazing. And he is not playing with a team full of experience like Chara !!!
Without his strength Pujols would not be a great power hitter. Not sure of the point here. There are plenty of big NHL players over the years who have not even approached Chara in terms of performance. To say talent is not the reason Chara is good is laughable as well. The fact that he is large does not mean it is the only reason he's dominant -- it's one of the reasons. Chara has ridiculous talent and skill, which combines with his size and strength to make him a dominant shutdown defenseman. Show me another defenseman in the NHL who plays shutdown defense as well as Chara, plus has the added bonus of good offensive ability and the skating skills of Chara. Karlsson should not win the Norris as long as he's mediocre at best defensively. MLB doesn't give the Cy Young to a homerun hitter just because he scored a lot of runs.

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04-02-2012, 11:17 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
I don't watch every Ottawa game but I'm going to go ahead and guess no. Based solely on the fact that he doesn't even kill penalties.

EDIT - And if he is, it's to provide transition to his top line and certainly not to shut down lines.
Karlsson and Kuba normally play against the opponents top line, even when we are at home, along with some shifts vs the worst line when we have an offensive zone faceoff - this is why Kuba/Karlsson's QoC metrics are lower than Chara/Weber, but still tops on the Sens.

Since we are almost guaranteed to play in round 1, you will soon see this

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04-02-2012, 11:46 AM
  #106
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So much for Chara being "too big" to play hockey. Now he's good only because he's big.

If size guaranteed defensive dominance, why isn't Valabik an all-star?

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04-02-2012, 11:56 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil View Post
Karlsson and Kuba normally play against the opponents top line, even when we are at home, along with some shifts vs the worst line when we have an offensive zone faceoff - this is why Kuba/Karlsson's QoC metrics are lower than Chara/Weber, but still tops on the Sens.

Since we are almost guaranteed to play in round 1, you will soon see this
so Karlson/kuba will be out vs Lucic/krejci/Caron(or pevs) most of the series?
For some reason its not how i remembered the season series...
Should be interesting

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04-02-2012, 12:00 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
They'll probably give it to Lidstrom again like last year even though he didn't deserve it.
If he wins it this year, it will be a travesty. Not that Lidstrom is not a great player, but he has been injured for a good portion of the season.

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04-02-2012, 12:04 PM
  #109
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Do you know that Karlsson is MASSIVELY better than anyone else including Chara in terms of vision, skill, shot, IQ, hockey sense and skating?

And he is not defensively suspect. How else is he a +19 playing 25:15 TOI on a team that is close to neutral in goal differential??

Were Chara uses his reach and size, Karlsson uses his speed to shut the top players down, and play significantly more 5 on 5 than Chara does. No one, and I mean NO ONE walks or skates by Karlsson. He even runs down Kovalchuk or Hossa in a position that would be a clear breakaway on just about any other player.

I have seen Chara get walked and make some brutal mistakes this season.
Karlsson to th HHOF after one season. Shut it down, no need to vote, Karlsson is it man

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04-02-2012, 12:27 PM
  #110
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What I find so funny about all the posts in the umteen Karlsson threads on the main boards this season and in this thread is how Sens fans seem to think they have secret knowledge of Karlsson's defensive play, and that nobody else has ever seen him play defense. The very reason why non-Sens fans crack on Karlsson's defense so much is because they have seen him play and realize that he's a great offensive player but nothing above mediocre defensively. The people who tell us of the great defensive feats of Karlsson need to become members of the flat-earth society.

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04-02-2012, 12:29 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yogibear View Post
At the same age, Karlsson is about 3 years ahead of Chara, which size is the main reason why is doing well in the NHL, not talent. A much smaller Chara is probably no longer a 'Norris' candidate.

Will Karlsson win the Norris? Maybe, maybe not. Just the fact that is a candidate so young is amazing. And he is not playing with a team full of experience like Chara !!!
One of the reasons that Chara is such an amazing player is because of the skill that he has for his size. Has Hal Gill won any Norris trophies lately? How many did Kjell Samuelson rack up during his playing days?

It is rare for a player of that size to have the skating ability and hands that Chara has. His size obviously helps, but there are plenty of big guys who have just been big stiffs because they can't move or play the game. Not the case here.

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04-02-2012, 12:29 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by missingchicklet View Post
What I find so funny about all the posts in the umteen Karlsson threads on the main boards this season and in this thread is how Sens fans seem to think they have secret knowledge of Karlsson's defensive play, and that nobody else has ever seen him play defense. The very reason why non-Sens fans crack on Karlsson's defense so much is because they have seen him play and realize that he's a great offensive player but nothing above mediocre defensively. The people who tell us of the great defensive feats of Karlsson need to become members of the flat-earth society.
LOL so true

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04-02-2012, 12:35 PM
  #113
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as much I think Chara deserves to win the Norris, I just think the voters will not look past the fact that Karlsson is a ppg defense man which is great accomplishment, but the Norris is not the Art Ross....

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04-02-2012, 12:37 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by ed bruin View Post
as much I think Chara deserves to win the Norris, I just think the voters will not look past the fact that Karlsson is a ppg defense man which is great accomplishment, but the Norris is not the Art Ross....
Maybe he better way to look at this is this. Who would you rather have on your team as your dman, Karlsson or Chara.

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04-02-2012, 12:38 PM
  #115
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I just realized Chara has set a career high of 52 points this season and as of right now he's matched his career high +33 (2nd in the league this season behind Bergeron). He'd be a good choice for the Norris I'd say.

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04-02-2012, 12:50 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lopey View Post
Maybe he better way to look at this is this. Who would you rather have on your team as your dman, Karlsson or Chara.
I rather have Chara even without the bias of being a Bruins fan. I look at it this way, the drop off of talent of defense men in the NHL is the biggest position. So my logic being if you can have defense man who is all around who can play every situation and eat up minutes. Your team can hide the weaker defense man on your team, thats what Chara does, he makes his linemate better and he eats up minutes so crap D-men like Corvo dont play as much or play on the PK. Karlsson on the other hand is more like a luxury good. He is awesome prob the best offensive D-man in the league today, but he aint gonna eat up minutes cuz he doesn't play every situation and he isn't gonna make up for his partners mistakes cuz he isnt a shutdown man.

I know where you are coming from Lopey, but look at the Selke award... Points matter to the voter's eye

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04-02-2012, 01:00 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by ed bruin View Post
as much I think Chara deserves to win the Norris, I just think the voters will not look past the fact that Karlsson is a ppg defense man which is great accomplishment, but the Norris is not the Art Ross....
The year Green put up 73 points in 68 games (including 31 goals), they gave it to Chara who put up 50 points in 80 games.

The gap between Green and the next highest scoring defenseman, Markov, with 64 points in 78 games that year, would have been 21 points if it is prorated over an 82 game schedule. He also would have been 37 points up on Chara.

This year Karlsson (prorated over an 82 game schedule) would be 26 points up on Chara and 19 points up on the next highest points per game defenseman, Byfuglien, who's played 63 games.

Definitely possible they overlook the offensive gap if they did before.

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04-02-2012, 01:03 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
So much for Chara being "too big" to play hockey. Now he's good only because he's big.

If size guaranteed defensive dominance, why isn't Valabik an all-star?
Obviously because he is an inch too short.

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04-02-2012, 01:11 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
Obviously because he is an inch too short.
lmao

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04-02-2012, 01:19 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by ed bruin View Post
I rather have Chara even without the bias of being a Bruins fan. I look at it this way, the drop off of talent of defense men in the NHL is the biggest position. So my logic being if you can have defense man who is all around who can play every situation and eat up minutes. Your team can hide the weaker defense man on your team, thats what Chara does, he makes his linemate better and he eats up minutes so crap D-men like Corvo dont play as much or play on the PK. Karlsson on the other hand is more like a luxury good. He is awesome prob the best offensive D-man in the league today, but he aint gonna eat up minutes cuz he doesn't play every situation and he isn't gonna make up for his partners mistakes cuz he isnt a shutdown man.

I know where you are coming from Lopey, but look at the Selke award... Points matter to the voter's eye
OH I agree the voters like the numbers, espicailly the offensive numbers. Its a lazy mans way of justifying picking the guy with the most points.

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04-02-2012, 01:20 PM
  #121
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I hope Karlsson wins the Norris and Chara is nominated... just so I can hear Karlsson's apologetic speech after Chara dummies him in the first round.

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04-02-2012, 01:28 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by CamFan81 View Post
so Karlson/kuba will be out vs Lucic/krejci/Caron(or pevs) most of the series?
For some reason its not how i remembered the season series...
Should be interesting
You guys are weird in that you don't have a top line (you kill with strong play throughout your lineup). If we were playing the NYR he would play against Gaborik, PIttsburgh against Crosby, Philly vs Giroux, NJ vs Kovolchuk, Washington vs Ovechkin. But against you guys, I am unsure as to what we would do because you are like an anti-matchup team if I have ever seen one.

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04-02-2012, 01:29 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by lopey View Post
OH I agree the voters like the numbers, espicailly the offensive numbers. Its a lazy mans way of justifying picking the guy with the most points.
so true and unfortunate...

by Defention the Norris Trophy and what it awards defense men on

Quote:
The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position.
via http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=24942

but voters just look at points to justify their picks and also points usually=flashy players which the NHL loves heck the award show is in Las Vegas for crying out loud how much more flashy can it get...

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04-02-2012, 01:30 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil View Post
You guys are weird in that you don't have a top line (you kill with strong play throughout your lineup). If we were playing the NYR he would play against Gaborik, PIttsburgh against Crosby, Philly vs Giroux, NJ vs Kovolchuk, Washington vs Ovechkin. But against you guys, I am unsure as to what we would do because you are like an anti-matchup team if I have ever seen one.
I don't understand.. if he's able to effectively shut down Ovechkin, Giroux and Crosby in even strength situations.. why the hell isn't he killing penalties for you guys?

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04-02-2012, 01:30 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Trap Jesus View Post
The year Green put up 73 points in 68 games (including 31 goals), they gave it to Chara who put up 50 points in 80 games.

The gap between Green and the next highest scoring defenseman, Markov, with 64 points in 78 games that year, would have been 21 points if it is prorated over an 82 game schedule. He also would have been 37 points up on Chara.

This year Karlsson (prorated over an 82 game schedule) would be 26 points up on Chara and 19 points up on the next highest points per game defenseman, Byfuglien, who's played 63 games.

Definitely possible they overlook the offensive gap if they did before.
I think one of Green's main critques is that he didn't play the whole season so there was some doubt he wouldn't have been able to maintain either ppg or above ppg average all year round.

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