Dumba doesn't actually play that physical, except for his big open ice hits.
Second of all, he's not closer to 5'10. I've stood beside him while he's in socked feet. He's atleast 5'11 because I was just a shade taller than him while I am 6 feet tall and in dress shoes at the time.
so I say he's more like 5'10" and you say he's 5'11", either way, he's going to be small in the NHL.
ANd he won't be able to deliver big hits in the big show unfortunately. And he's only average defensively in the dub, wingers go by him on the outside every game I've watched him, so he's going to have to make it based on offense.
WHL star, doesn't translate imo to the NHL.
But'll we all wait and see.....
I'm comparing the way they both played in the dub. Both smaller physical guys who's aggressivness let them be noticed. Unfortunately, both smaller, and as we see with Tootoo, just not effective with that same style in the NHL.
You love Dumba's potential in the WHL, I don't. Time will tell who's right.
I love Pulocks potential in the NHL, you don't. Time will tell who's right
Meanwhile, how badly do your Blades need to blow up their team for next season
Really? Resorting to Blades taunts because I made a point that you don't agree with? Ok.
As for your original points about Dumba, I never said his game will translate great to the NHL. I know that his physicality will have to be changed slightly. I'm not doubting that. I just doubted you comparing him to Tootoo because that's totally off-base, as others have also stated. Tootoo is a grinder, Dumba is a skilled defender, to go along with his physical play.
As for Pulock, the kid's a hell of a defenceman. All I've said in the past (mostly during the 2010-2011 season) that he never really jumped off the page at me during games. He was just quietly effective. I don't recall ever saying that he won't translate to the pro game.
Really? Resorting to Blades taunts because I made a point that you don't agree with? Ok.
As for your original points about Dumba, I never said his game will translate great to the NHL. I know that his physicality will have to be changed slightly. I'm not doubting that. I just doubted you comparing him to Tootoo because that's totally off-base, as others have also stated. Tootoo is a grinder, Dumba is a skilled defender, to go along with his physical play.
As for Pulock, the kid's a hell of a defenceman. All I've said in the past (mostly during the 2010-2011 season) that he never really jumped off the page at me during games. He was just quietly effective. I don't recall ever saying that he won't translate to the pro game.
I recall you saying this about Pulock
"I still don't get it, the kid never showed me much in the games I saw this year and I saw him almost half a dozen times"
Tootoo wasn't a grinder in the dub.
For the last time to you and the other guy who questioned the comparison, they are both undersized guys who can play aggressive in the dub, bit don't have the size to do it in the NHL. You don't agree, maybe you weren't around back in Tootoo's day, I don't know? I was.
So what are you predicting for Dumba in the NHL then? Based on your posts, I thought you were picking him as the top WHL d-man for the draft? Which implies you think he'll do well in the show?
As far as the Blades go, well, it's just fun poking at that franchise once in a while!!! But seriously, how many players do they need to add in your opinion?
I recall you saying this about Pulock
"I still don't get it, the kid never showed me much in the games I saw this year and I saw him almost half a dozen times"
Tootoo wasn't a grinder in the dub.
For the last time to you and the other guy who questioned the comparison, they are both undersized guys who can play aggressive in the dub, bit don't have the size to do it in the NHL. You don't agree, maybe you weren't around back in Tootoo's day, I don't know? I was.
So what are you predicting for Dumba in the NHL then? Based on your posts, I thought you were picking him as the top WHL d-man for the draft? Which implies you think he'll do well in the show?
As far as the Blades go, well, it's just fun poking at that franchise once in a while!!! But seriously, how many players do they need to add in your opinion?
Seriously, I'm a huge Dumba critic based upon his size, but Dumba is nowhere near "undersized" like the player you're trying to compare him to. It's just an absolutely non-sensical comment that simply can't be justified.
Seriously, I'm a huge Dumba critic based upon his size, but Dumba is nowhere near "undersized" like the player you're trying to compare him to. It's just an absolutely non-sensical comment that simply can't be justified.
I'm saying his hitting part won't translate to the NHL.
His defensive game is average.
His offensive game is good.
That's why I think his hype is over rated. Let's revisit in 5 years.
And for the record, yes, I'd love him on my WHL team!!
Forsberg has 23 goals in 36 national team games, including his goalless WJC. They have some similarities with MPS but, definately not finishing ability. Forsberg is way better goalscorer, while Paajarvi is is a better playmaker.
Also, if the development of MPS(who had a good rookie campaign and almost PPG in AHL) scares some teams, then shouldn't they be scared about WHL defensemen after Hickey? or OHL forwards looking at Kadri's development?
I didn't say MPS was a bad player, nor should Forsberg be lumped into the same category as MPS. I just suggested that some teams may be leary of taking this guy so high.
About MPS - I think the 2 goals in 41 games at the NHL level this year is what I was referencing in terms of development.
Sorry you felt I was attacking Swedish prospects, that was not my intent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckJet
Maybe. I just can't see one of the top defenders in the best d-group since 2008 slipping out of the top 10.
I understand that. But shock shouldn't really be a word to describe a consensus opinion. I don't know where you can find a ranking having Teravainen over Forsberg but I'd like to see it. It shouldn't shock you that what has been a regular occurrence has repeated itself.
As for MPS, I've always thought his game was a bit soft. Relying more on speed and hands alone. Compares kind of to a Andy McDonald if he played wing. To me I see a Corey Perry with-out the agitator style in Forsberg. Great play along the boards, using size to hold onto the puck, great overall vision and mobility in the offensive zone. Plus he's super creative with the puck. I can see Forsberg dropping but probably not behind Teravainen. I've been wrong before. I think everyone around here has. It remains to be seen. Personally I'll be overjoyed if I'm wrong about some of these guys I've criticized (Rielly, Teravainen, Ceci, Collberg) and trust me I've got my fingers crossed that a team above us takes them. It's just that none of those guys make much sense from a Ducks perspective. I won't be happy if (off chance that his happens but still) we take Forsberg over Galchenyuk. Yes FF can play center, but that's not his natural position/his bread and butter. We need centers and shutdown defenders.
To me, I think that at Teravainen's highest he's at least on par with Forsberg skill-wise. Not better. I haven't seen much of him...but I already believe that Forsberg has the tools to emerge as the best forward in this draft, he just needs to be developed properly.
I see where he's coming from though. I've used this argument after I got flamed on my own board for suggesting that Forsberg is not NHL ready (cause you know...as long as a scout said so, it must be true). At this age he doesn't have the finishing needed to fit in at an NHL level. He has all the right ideas and shows he at least knows HOW to dominate, he just lacks the experience to get it done. But that's fine. He's younger. He was the youngest forward at WJC right? It's not really a surprise he was held scoreless...he'll probably have a much better tournament next year. What I saw was he is physically ready. Maybe not as much as Landeskog to say that Forsberg could handle NHL play guaranteed, but I thought from what I saw out of him that Forsberg could easily HANDLE NHL play a la Nino Niederreiter next year, so in that regard, yes he's NHL ready, but what's the point of having him there to play 10 minutes a game??
Andy Macdonald is a horrible comparison for MPS.
A guy like David Booth is a much better comparison IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbtatter
I was aware that one's a dman and one's a forward
They play the same way. A physical role that works in the dub, but they're both too small to play the same way in the NHL. Dumba's not 6', he's listed as that, but he's more like 5'10".
I think a much better comparison that would lead to less confusion (although hes a Forward) is Gilbert Brule.
Brule in the dub' was a very physical player, really hard on the forecheck, and had no fear throwing the body. He played a very physical game for his size at the WHL level.
I believe, the comparison comes to Dumba by way of questions of whether he'll be able to play the same type of game against NHLers is what these Tootoo-Dumba comparisons are all about.
Brule's broken collarbone in his first week of NHL service sort of let us know he wouldn't be able to have the same physical impact at the NHL level.
Im not trying to say Dumba is going to get hurt or not be able to play his style in the NHL, just that there are questions about whether he could.
BTW - How has Tootoo's game changed...he still runs around, still lays out huge checks, his offensive game hasn't translate as well, but he is a very effective physical player at the NHL level.
I recall you saying this about Pulock
"I still don't get it, the kid never showed me much in the games I saw this year and I saw him almost half a dozen times"
Yeah, that's exactly what I've said. What's your point? Like I just stated, he hasn't jumped out at me a ton while watching him. Do I still like him as a player? Yes, he's very good. Will he be a top 5 or top 10 pick in the 2013 draft? Absolutely and rightfully so.
All I've said is that I've never noticed him to be a very explosive player. He's just very cerebral and very effective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbtatter
Tootoo wasn't a grinder in the dub.
For the last time to you and the other guy who questioned the comparison, they are both undersized guys who can play aggressive in the dub, bit don't have the size to do it in the NHL. You don't agree, maybe you weren't around back in Tootoo's day, I don't know? I was.
Agree to disagree I guess. All I'm saying is that I think Dumba's pedigree is much higher than what Tootoo's ever was. He has more skill to make up for his 'lack of size', even though I think you are blowing Dumba's 'lack of size' out of proportion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbtatter
So what are you predicting for Dumba in the NHL then? Based on your posts, I thought you were picking him as the top WHL d-man for the draft? Which implies you think he'll do well in the show?
When did I say he was the top WHL d-man for the draft? I've never said that. I've had Murray ranked first since the first half of last season (2010-2011) when I first saw him live. Murray is still my top guy, with guys like Reinhart and Rielly right along with Dumba.
If I had to say right now, I would likely say:
Murray
Reinhart
Rielly
Dumba
Pouliot
Although Dumba and Rielly are neck and neck.
I think Dumba will eventually be a 40ish point blueliner who can QB a PP and possibly play on a second unit PK. He'll also likely wear an 'A' on his sweater, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbtatter
As far as the Blades go, well, it's just fun poking at that franchise once in a while!!! But seriously, how many players do they need to add in your opinion?
I think they need a legit #1 center, 2-3 good wingers to play in their top 9 and a legit #1 defenceman too.
They have the picks and prospects to make deals, and many deals will be made. With that being said, this year's team was among the youngest in the league with only 3 19 year olds. The 18's will be a year older (Siemens, Sutter, Thrower, Dietz, etc) while guys like Olsen still need to prove big things.
Hard to say exactly how it will play out, but yes, big changes need to be made....and they will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbtatter
Ha, Renegade doesn't like to be reminded he's not always correct!!
What wasn't I correct about? Neither Pulock or Dumba are in the show yet, so how can you say I was wrong about anything?
Dumba doesn't actually play that physical, except for his big open ice hits.
Second of all, he's not closer to 5'10. I've stood beside him while he's in socked feet. He's atleast 5'11 because I was just a shade taller than him while I am 6 feet tall and in dress shoes at the time.
Who would you say is taller Dumba or Thrower. Thrower looks like he is closer to being finished growing, whereas Dumba looks like he has a bit more room to grow,
Who would you say is taller Dumba or Thrower. Thrower looks like he is closer to being finished growing, whereas Dumba looks like he has a bit more room to grow,
I would say it's almost identical. Both are right around that 5'11.5 range. I think both could grow a bit more, but I agree that if one was going to grow another inch it would likely be Dumba. Mostly just because Thrower has filled out a lot more than Dumba has.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbtatter
I was aware that one's a dman and one's a forward
They play the same way. A physical role that works in the dub, but they're both too small to play the same way in the NHL. Dumba's not 6', he's listed as that, but he's more like 5'10".
Central Scouting, an impartial observer, measured him at 5'11.75". Unless you've measured him personally, I don't see how you can argue with that.
And like I mentioned earlier, Dumba's physical but that's not the meat of his game since he has multiple other attributes that project well to the NHL. Tootoo might have been able to score in the WHL, but no one reasonable thought he'd be a top 6 forward, since his skill level was not high enough. And once again, his physical game actually translated quite well, since it's the only reason he's in the NHL.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster
Who would you say is taller Dumba or Thrower. Thrower looks like he is closer to being finished growing, whereas Dumba looks like he has a bit more room to grow,
You can see Central Scouting's measurements of the two players in their list. They measured Dumba at 5'11.75" and Thrower at 5'11.5". So Dumba would be slightly taller.
You can see Central Scouting's measurements of the two players in their list. They measured Dumba at 5'11.75" and Thrower at 5'11.5". So Dumba would be slightly taller.
I never trust those numbers.
Junior leagues/teams inflate the numbers.
The Combine is when the current heights and weights are more believable.
The Combine is when the current heights and weights are more believable.
I agree. That's why I try and do my best to size kids up as I see them around the rink. The measurements for both Thrower and Dumba are pretty accurate I would say, likely within atleast half an inch.
I agree. That's why I try and do my best to size kids up as I see them around the rink. The measurements for both Thrower and Dumba are pretty accurate I would say, likely within atleast half an inch.
Yeah, that's exactly what I've said. What's your point? Like I just stated, he hasn't jumped out at me a ton while watching him. Do I still like him as a player? Yes, he's very good. Will he be a top 5 or top 10 pick in the 2013 draft? Absolutely and rightfully so.
All I've said is that I've never noticed him to be a very explosive player. He's just very cerebral and very effective.
Ah, you can understand how
"I still don't get it, the kid never showed me much in the games I saw this year and I saw him almost half a dozen times"
didn't come across as what you just said above
Ah, you can understand how
"I still don't get it, the kid never showed me much in the games I saw this year and I saw him almost half a dozen times"
didn't come across as what you just said above
Glad to see your view of Pulock is coming around!
Interesting to see this is the lone point you single out of my long post.
You seem to have a real problem when people question Pulock. Or even worse, when someone tries to compare him to Dumba.
Interesting to see this is the lone point you single out of my long post.
You seem to have a real problem when people question Pulock. Or even worse, when someone tries to compare him to Dumba.
I think everyone's bored with our conversation, so didn't quote it all, which part would you like to continue? I have no issues with other peoples opinions regarding Dumba, it's interesting, but no point in going round and round, we will all have to wait and see how he pans out. I'm sure he'll go top 10 in the draft. I'm sure he'll do well at the U18's as well.
No problem with anyone questioning Pulock. Or when they compare him to Dumba. They are 2 different types of players.
Those aren't team listings. Central Scouting measures players throughout the season, that's their measurement.
I was unaware of this.
How sure are you that they are measured during the season?
I cant see guys coming around measuring guys during the season...I was always under the impression that the measurement listing comes from the league/team website, and the players aren't officially measured until the combine, but I could be wrong.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster
I was unaware of this.
How sure are you that they are measured during the season?
I cant see guys coming around measuring guys during the season...I was always under the impression that the measurement listing comes from the league/team website, and the players aren't officially measured until the combine, but I could be wrong.
They do it every season for all draft eligible CHL and USHL players and will go to other notable leagues in North America that produce draft picks as well. Unless a player is away at the time Central Scouting is there, he should have an accurate impartial measurement. Players sometimes are measured more than once a season. Most European players traditionally haven't been measured though so their heights may not be accurate.
