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Prime healthy Forsberg vs Ovechkin

View Poll Results: Which one would you rather have on your team?
Forsberg 108 67.92%
Ovechkin 33 20.75%
I Can't decide 4 2.52%
Malkin is the son of Zeus 14 8.81%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-04-2012, 03:20 PM
  #76
bleedblue1223
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Originally Posted by 211 View Post
ovechkins offensive game in his prime is more impressive then forsbergs game. thats what i am sayin and maybe you should see who the hell was on forsbergs team when they won those two cups.
1) More goals doesn't mean more impressive.

2) All Cup winning teams have a bunch of great players.

3) Ovechkin has been playing with a lot of talent as well. Check out the 121 point team that lost in the 1st round. Or the 108 point team the season before.

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04-04-2012, 03:23 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
1) More goals doesn't mean more impressive.

2) All Cup winning teams have a bunch of great players.

3) Ovechkin has been playing with a lot of talent as well. Check out the 121 point team that lost in the 1st round. Or the 108 point team the season before.
ok but look at the team play, is what i am trying to say. colorado had a lot of good team players on those teams. washington was playing fire wagon hockey and has a couple of decent two way players. backstrom is excellent though.

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04-04-2012, 03:26 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by 211 View Post
ok but look at the team play, is what i am trying to say. colorado had a lot of good team players on those teams. washington was playing fire wagon hockey and has a couple of decent two way players. backstrom is excellent though.
which is why Forsberg's 2-way play and leadership would be the difference maker

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04-04-2012, 03:54 PM
  #79
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Forsberg does not only have his two Stanley Cup rings plugged into his ears so he can't hear you. He also has his two olympic gold medals in front of his eyes so he can't read what you are writing.

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04-04-2012, 04:49 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by SweYote View Post
Forsberg does not only have his two Stanley Cup rings plugged into his ears so he can't hear you. He also has his two olympic gold medals in front of his eyes so he can't read what you are writing.
Roy and Forsberg have been hanging out way to much.

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Originally Posted by 211 View Post
ok but look at the team play, is what i am trying to say. colorado had a lot of good team players on those teams. washington was playing fire wagon hockey and has a couple of decent two way players. backstrom is excellent though.
i really don't understand why this is so hard to get...Forsberg was part of the reason why the players on that team were good.

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04-04-2012, 09:12 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
Roy and Forsberg have been hanging out way to much.



i really don't understand why this is so hard to get...Forsberg was part of the reason why the players on that team were good.
Milan Hejduk

1999-2000: 36 goals, Forsberg 49 Games Played

2000-2001: 41 G, Forsberg 73 GP.

2001-2002: 21 G, Forsberg 0 GP

2002-2003: 50 G, Forsberg 75 GP

2003-2004: 35 G, Forsberg 39 GP

Not exactly concrete proof, but some statistical support nonetheless.

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04-04-2012, 09:53 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
1) More goals doesn't mean more impressive.

2) All Cup winning teams have a bunch of great players.

3) Ovechkin has been playing with a lot of talent as well. Check out the 121 point team that lost in the 1st round. Or the 108 point team the season before.
More goals doesnt mean more impressive but we're talking a guy who hit dead on 30 twice in his whole career to a guy who put up 65 in one season. Its a lot harder for a goal scorer to create his own offense and Forsberg was feeding some really great players that helped his assist totals a lot.

The goal scoring is a huge difference. Forsberg hit 100 points twice in his entire career, Ovi has done it four times already. Ovechkin has never scored less than 32 goals in a season, thats 2 more than Forsbergs best. Ovechkin was also much more physically dominant

Also check out Ovechkins playoff resume. He has put up 1.4 points per game in the playoffs, yeah his teams havent done much but dont act like he is some no show come playoff time. He's dominant out there, having guys like Semin is what hurts that team.

There is a serious unwarranted ***** for Forsberg on HFboards. The guy was great, but some people say top 10 all time when healthy, and others say that Ovechkins prime wasnt close which is ridiculous.

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04-04-2012, 09:55 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by I Hate Jay Feaster View Post
He was a great player, but he wasn't the demigod people make him out to be. He wasn't even the best of his era.
Era is a pretty ambiguous word in this case. Forsberg was pretty commonly thought of as the best player in the world for a few years. The thing that the naysayers have against him is a lack of goals and injuries. Forsberg is the closest comparable to Crosby and #87 is widely acknowledged as the best player in the world. When he's not healthy and on the ice the feeling isn't that there's another best player in the world, it's that the world's best player isn't playing these days. That's how I, and many others, felt about Forsberg during his prime.

People here who cry about the "HF Forsberg demi-goddery" fail to fully realize just how complete Foppa's game was. As a Stars fan who saw him plenty in the playoffs no player since then who I've seen play on a regular basis strikes fear into my heart when he hops over the boards the way Forsberg did. It didn't matter the situation, which end of the ice the puck was, you knew it was 90% going to end up in your team's defensive zone in short order. He played Zetterberg style defense and doesn't get the credit that he deserves for it.

If winning a stat contest is the name of the game I might go with Ovechkin. If winning hockey games is what we're talking about I'll go with Forsberg pretty easily.

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04-04-2012, 11:10 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Era is a pretty ambiguous word in this case. Forsberg was pretty commonly thought of as the best player in the world for a few years. The thing that the naysayers have against him is a lack of goals and injuries. Forsberg is the closest comparable to Crosby and #87 is widely acknowledged as the best player in the world. When he's not healthy and on the ice the feeling isn't that there's another best player in the world, it's that the world's best player isn't playing these days. That's how I, and many others, felt about Forsberg during his prime.

People here who cry about the "HF Forsberg demi-goddery" fail to fully realize just how complete Foppa's game was. As a Stars fan who saw him plenty in the playoffs no player since then who I've seen play on a regular basis strikes fear into my heart when he hops over the boards the way Forsberg did. It didn't matter the situation, which end of the ice the puck was, you knew it was 90% going to end up in your team's defensive zone in short order. He played Zetterberg style defense and doesn't get the credit that he deserves for it.

If winning a stat contest is the name of the game I might go with Ovechkin. If winning hockey games is what we're talking about I'll go with Forsberg pretty easily.
Nailed it!

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04-05-2012, 12:04 AM
  #85
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Some fair points here but here's how I'll respond:

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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
More goals doesnt mean more impressive but we're talking a guy who hit dead on 30 twice in his whole career to a guy who put up 65 in one season. Its a lot harder for a goal scorer to create his own offense and Forsberg was feeding some really great players that helped his assist totals a lot. The goal scoring is a huge difference. Forsberg hit 100 points twice in his entire career, Ovi has done it four times already. Ovechkin has never scored less than 32 goals in a season, thats 2 more than Forsbergs best. Ovechkin was also much more physically dominant
Yeah, Forsberg does not have great goal scoring statistics. But a lot of that was due to the fact that he preferred to pass the puck, sometimes too much, rather than the fact that he wasn't capable of scoring them. He had a very accurate shot with decent power. He also scored more goals in the playoffs, and often big, big goals. But even if he wasn't a big goal scorer, that doesn't mean he wasn't as dominant as Ovechkin offensively. Watch his assists. They aren't these "phantom assists that so many posters complain about today. So many times, he would create the play all by himself, going around and through defenseman being giving it to a teammate for a tap in. Look at this for example (this was in the playoffs too):



Also, Forsberg did not play with Sakic 5-on-5, he often played with the likes of Hedjuk, Drury, Deadmarsh. Backstrom is probably better than any of those players already. And how is Ovechkin "much more" physically dominant. Sure he's considerably larger, but their physical presences were comparable at least. Finally, it is natural that Ovechkin has more 100 point seasons than Forsberg. Forsberg missed quite a lot of games due to injury where he was on pace for 100+ points, but this thread isn't about durability, it's about primes. And don't even get me started on Dead Puck Era vs. Post-Lockout Era scoring.


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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Also check out Ovechkins playoff resume. He has put up 1.4 points per game in the playoffs, yeah his teams havent done much but dont act like he is some no show come playoff time. He's dominant out there, having guys like Semin is what hurts that team.
Lol, you're trying to use playoff resumes to compare them? Forsberg blows Ovechkin out of the water. Yeah, Ovechkin has a higher PPG, but he plays on an all-offense team. How many playoff games have the Caps won 1-0 or 2-1? Even in losses they tend to score in bunches. Secondly there is a reason why Ovechkin's sample size is so small. His team has never made it out of the second round. Yeah, you can say that his team isn't as complete defensively as the Avalanche but he is a large reason why. They built the Capitals around him and their entire fireworks style reflects that. Meanwhile, Forsberg was a large part, along with Sakic, of why the Avalanche were such a complete team. Team styles often are built around their core. Look at the 90's Red Wings: Yzerman, Lidstrom, Fedorov. Same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
There is a serious unwarranted ***** for Forsberg on HFboards. The guy was great, but some people say top 10 all time when healthy, and others say that Ovechkins prime wasnt close which is ridiculous.
I agree that it is ridiculous when people say that Ovechkin vs Forsberg primes aren't close. But I still think Forsberg was better at his prime. Offensively it is extremely close, but Forsberg complete game seals the deal for me.

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04-05-2012, 12:10 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Sleeping Dragon 81 View Post
I agree that it is ridiculous when people say that Ovechkin vs Forsberg primes aren't close. But I still think Forsberg was better at his prime. Offensively it is extremely close, but Forsberg complete game seals the deal for me.
But that's what makes it not close. Their offensive games were similar in production. Ovechkin got the goals, but Forsberg created everything. Forsberg's defensive game is a country mile better, and the defensive side of the game for forwards is being vastly underrated in this thread.

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04-05-2012, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
But that's what makes it not close. Their offensive games were similar in production. Ovechkin got the goals, but Forsberg created everything. Forsberg's defensive game is a country mile better, and the defensive side of the game for forwards is being vastly underrated in this thread.
Fair enough, but I think Ovechkin's defensive shortcomings are somewhat overblown. Don't get me wrong, he's not going to win a Selke anytime soon, but he isn't as bad as people complain about. And his Hart Trophies/Art Ross/Richards are hard to ignore. It's hard to argue that a two-time Hart-Trophy, three-time Richard winner's "prime" is not even close to a guy who was arguably not the best player of his generation.

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04-05-2012, 12:58 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Sleeping Dragon 81 View Post
Fair enough, but I think Ovechkin's defensive shortcomings are somewhat overblown. Don't get me wrong, he's not going to win a Selke anytime soon, but he isn't as bad as people complain about. And his Hart Trophies/Art Ross/Richards are hard to ignore. It's hard to argue that a two-time Hart-Trophy, three-time Richard winner's "prime" is not even close to a guy who was arguably not the best player of his generation.
well the same can be said about Ovechkin

Forsberg has also won a Hart and the Art Ross as well.

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04-05-2012, 01:12 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Sleeping Dragon 81 View Post


Lol, you're trying to use playoff resumes to compare them? Forsberg blows Ovechkin out of the water. Yeah, Ovechkin has a higher PPG, but he plays on an all-offense team. How many playoff games have the Caps won 1-0 or 2-1? Even in losses they tend to score in bunches. Secondly there is a reason why Ovechkin's sample size is so small. His team has never made it out of the second round. Yeah, you can say that his team isn't as complete defensively as the Avalanche but he is a large reason why. They built the Capitals around him and their entire fireworks style reflects that.
What? Ovechkin is not responsible for players like Mike Green being unable to keep wimps out of the crease or players like Wideman giving up the puck at the blue line every game. I think people enjoy bashing Ovechkin because they want a scapegoat great player who hasn't won a title yet. Like, guess what, McPhee makes the roster not Ovechkin. The Capitals "addressed" their defensive issues by adding Hamrlik this season...is that Ovechkin's fault also. I can't wait till (IF) the Capitals make the playoffs, Ovechkin has 10 points in 6 games and is blamed for the series loss.

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04-05-2012, 01:21 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by SkinsFan09 View Post
What? Ovechkin is not responsible for players like Mike Green being unable to keep wimps out of the crease or players like Wideman giving up the puck at the blue line every game. I think people enjoy bashing Ovechkin because they want a scapegoat great player who hasn't won a title yet. Like, guess what, McPhee makes the roster not Ovechkin. The Capitals "addressed" their defensive issues by adding Hamrlik this season...is that Ovechkin's fault also. I can't wait till (IF) the Capitals make the playoffs, Ovechkin has 10 points in 6 games and is blamed for the series loss.
yea its crazy at times. i mean the canucks lost in 94 why didnt anyone blame bure?

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04-05-2012, 07:11 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Sleeping Dragon 81 View Post
Fair enough, but I think Ovechkin's defensive shortcomings are somewhat overblown. Don't get me wrong, he's not going to win a Selke anytime soon, but he isn't as bad as people complain about. And his Hart Trophies/Art Ross/Richards are hard to ignore. It's hard to argue that a two-time Hart-Trophy, three-time Richard winner's "prime" is not even close to a guy who was arguably not the best player of his generation.
Ovechkin isn't the best player of his generation. Regardless though, and I said this earlier, if Ovechkin's 50 G 100 P seasons are over, than it's hard to argue his "prime" was better.

Forsberg's prime lasted 10 seasons, Ovechkin's possibly only 5 years.

So regardless of his injury problems, whenever he stepped on the ice, Forsberg was producing at an elite level even into his 30's. Which is honestly remarkable because of all the injuries he suffered.

To me, when you're trying to gauge greatness, the factors are: how great was the player, and for how long was the player great (ie. their prime)?

Forsberg and Lindros are two of the great what if's in the sports history.

This is just a side note, and not really for this discussion. If you extrapolate Forsberg PPG to full seasons, still leaving the year he didn't play as 0, it equates to 939 points in 9 seasons. A PPG of 1.27 for a decade...in the dead puck era. It's really impressive.

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04-05-2012, 07:41 AM
  #92
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I would take a healthy Forsberg over Ovechkin.

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04-05-2012, 11:32 AM
  #93
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Forsberg=overated.

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04-05-2012, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Prattio View Post
Forsberg=overated.
Opinion that Forsberg was overrated = overrated.

Ovechkin might have had a small, small edge offensively, but Forsberg was better in every single other aspect of the game.

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04-05-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by PredaDORES View Post
Anyone who voted for Ovechkin is obviously under 25 years old.
What kind of logic is that? If you're 25 or older, then you caught Forsberg's career and probably grew up on it. How is that any different from people catching Ovechkin's career? It's not. Bringing age into it is trying to prove a point without providing any proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Era is a pretty ambiguous word in this case. Forsberg was pretty commonly thought of as the best player in the world for a few years. The thing that the naysayers have against him is a lack of goals and injuries. Forsberg is the closest comparable to Crosby and #87 is widely acknowledged as the best player in the world. When he's not healthy and on the ice the feeling isn't that there's another best player in the world, it's that the world's best player isn't playing these days. That's how I, and many others, felt about Forsberg during his prime.

People here who cry about the "HF Forsberg demi-goddery" fail to fully realize just how complete Foppa's game was. As a Stars fan who saw him plenty in the playoffs no player since then who I've seen play on a regular basis strikes fear into my heart when he hops over the boards the way Forsberg did. It didn't matter the situation, which end of the ice the puck was, you knew it was 90% going to end up in your team's defensive zone in short order. He played Zetterberg style defense and doesn't get the credit that he deserves for it.

If winning a stat contest is the name of the game I might go with Ovechkin. If winning hockey games is what we're talking about I'll go with Forsberg pretty easily.
Good points, but I DO realize how good Forsberg was. I caught his Hart and Art Ross winning year; I caught Forsberg's 27 point playoffs. I just look at those years the same way I look at Ovechkin's. I'm not going to add drama into it by acting like no one else did what Forsberg did. They were dominant, but they weren't worthy of all the praise and not enough to toss Ovechkin's peak aside as insignificant in comparison.

As for winning games, once again, a TEAM accomplishment.

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04-05-2012, 03:17 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Ovechkin isn't the best player of his generation. Regardless though, and I said this earlier, if Ovechkin's 50 G 100 P seasons are over, than it's hard to argue his "prime" was better.

Forsberg's prime lasted 10 seasons, Ovechkin's possibly only 5 years.

So regardless of his injury problems, whenever he stepped on the ice, Forsberg was producing at an elite level even into his 30's. Which is honestly remarkable because of all the injuries he suffered.

To me, when you're trying to gauge greatness, the factors are: how great was the player, and for how long was the player great (ie. their prime)?

Forsberg and Lindros are two of the great what if's in the sports history.

This is just a side note, and not really for this discussion. If you extrapolate Forsberg PPG to full seasons, still leaving the year he didn't play as 0, it equates to 939 points in 9 seasons. A PPG of 1.27 for a decade...in the dead puck era. It's really impressive.
Yes, in my first post I argued in detail why I thought Forsberg have the surperior prime, my second post was just in response to someone who said that "it wasn't close". I strongly believe Forsberg had the better prime, I just believe Ovechkin's isn't THAT far off.

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04-05-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinsFan09 View Post
What? Ovechkin is not responsible for players like Mike Green being unable to keep wimps out of the crease or players like Wideman giving up the puck at the blue line every game. I think people enjoy bashing Ovechkin because they want a scapegoat great player who hasn't won a title yet. Like, guess what, McPhee makes the roster not Ovechkin. The Capitals "addressed" their defensive issues by adding Hamrlik this season...is that Ovechkin's fault also. I can't wait till (IF) the Capitals make the playoffs, Ovechkin has 10 points in 6 games and is blamed for the series loss.
I never bashed Ovechkin for his playoff performances. I simply said it was unreasonable to compare to Forsberg's. Let me break it down.

Forsberg: Great offensive numbers, very large sample size, great playoff success, clutch goal scoring/assists, two cups.

Ovechkin: Great offensive numbers, small sample size, no playoff success, unproven clutch goal scoring/assists, no cups.

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04-05-2012, 03:21 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 211 View Post
yea its crazy at times. i mean the canucks lost in 94 why didnt anyone blame bure?
Not sure if trolling or not but you're comparing the Canucks Stanley Cup Final appearance (which they took to a Game 7) to the Capitals recent playoff failures, which they have never been past the second round ?

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04-05-2012, 03:24 PM
  #99
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A prime/healthy Forsberg all day every day.

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04-05-2012, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeping Dragon 81 View Post
I never bashed Ovechkin for his playoff performances. I simply said it was unreasonable to compare to Forsberg's. Let me break it down.

Forsberg: Great offensive numbers, very large sample size, great playoff success, clutch goal scoring/assists, two cups.

Ovechkin: Great offensive numbers, small sample size, no playoff success, unproven clutch goal scoring/assists, no cups.
2008 playoffs - Wins Game 1 with the GWG with under 5 minutes to go in the third on an unassisted effort. Wins Game 6 by himself with two goals in the third at Philly. Ties Game 7 late in the third on a solo effort. Should've had the GW assist if Fedorov hadn't blown it.

2009 playoffs - Wins Game 2 with a hat trick and the GWG. Ties Game 5 late in the third.

2010 playoffs - Assists on Backstrom's game tying goal in Game 2.

2011 playoffs - Game tying goal with a minute left in Game 2 vs. Tampa.

Let's not act like he hasn't had his share of big playoff goals/plays. Either way this goes completely off my original counterpoint which was the absolutely ridiculous notion that it's Ovechkin's fault that the Capitals aren't complete defensively. Apparently he is GM also.

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