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Bettmans plan isnt for strikebreakers - its another year of no hockey.

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Old
11-26-2004, 12:40 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
And when prices are cut so low, the league cannot generate enough revenue to survive, and the cycle starts all over again. Why can't people see this?
I think this is why the replacement player angle won't be used by the NHL, as it seems like a do-or-die choice. If the NHLPA (or at least a fair number of the recognizable members and not a bunch of Clarke Wilms) cracks, it looks like genius. It the NHLPA hardens their stance, the league is screwed if attendance figures aren't anywhere close to respectable.

It should never get even close to that point, though. Bettman and Goodenow need to be reminded of what "bargaining" is and get locked in a room and forced to do their jobs. There is a middle ground somewhere, there has to be, and if these two can't find it then it is time for the NHL and NHLPA to find people who can.

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11-26-2004, 12:42 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Most can't tell the difference and a large number would pay even NHL level prices just to make a point to the NHLPA. Of course, they won't be forced to as ticket prices will be significantly lower.

The games will be televised. Whether the deal is a % of profits or revenue.



Why can't people see that the owners are willing to sustain short-term losses in order to win a favourable long-term position?



It allowed a far greater degree of competitiveness between poor and rich teams under the former CBA's uneven terms for the league to let the game get slowed down. It also allowed the owners to offer a "new and improved" product with the new CBA, replacement player or not.

It should be pretty obvious by now that the owners had no intention of trying to grow the games revenue only to have to give an increasingly larger % of the revenues to the players and have been planning for this showdown once the players made it clear they wouldn't deal on cost certainty.

SSF,

Please attempt to make your point minus the juvenile insults.
Next time you go to a minor league game, I want you to give the ticket guy an extra $50 just to prove your point to the NHLPA. Then think about your abject stupidity.

And it is painfully obvious Gary Bettman had no intention of trying to grow the games revenue.


Last edited by hockeytown9321: 11-26-2004 at 12:52 PM.
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11-26-2004, 12:52 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Next time you go to a minor league game, I want you to give the ticket guy an extra $50 just to prove your point to the NHLPA. Then think about your abject stupidity.
Abject stupidity would be equating giving my money and support to the OHL since it wouldn't hurt the NHLPA in any way, when I wanted to give both to the NHL and help force the PA to come to their senses and begin to understand their role in the business.

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11-26-2004, 12:59 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Abject stupidity would be equating giving my money and support to the OHL since it wouldn't hurt the NHLPA in any way, when I wanted to give both to the NHL and help force the PA to come to their senses and begin to understand their role in the business.
But by supporting the OHL you're showing the players its not about them, its about the game.

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11-26-2004, 01:02 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Abject stupidity would be equating giving my money and support to the OHL since it wouldn't hurt the NHLPA in any way, when I wanted to give both to the NHL and help force the PA to come to their senses and begin to understand their role in the business.
Wrong. As you have said many times in two different threads I believe, that the public is too stupid to realize the difference in quality of hockey and would pay, albiet at a slightly reduced rate, NHL ticket prices to watch minor league talent.

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11-26-2004, 01:17 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Abject stupidity would be equating giving my money and support to the OHL since it wouldn't hurt the NHLPA in any way, when I wanted to give both to the NHL and help force the PA to come to their senses and begin to understand their role in the business.
Let me ask you this-What is the absolute maximum price you'd pay to see an OHL game?

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11-26-2004, 01:48 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by shakes
Wrong. As you have said many times in two different threads I believe, that the public is too stupid to realize the difference in quality of hockey and would pay, albiet at a slightly reduced rate, NHL ticket prices to watch minor league talent.

Shakes,

Just to get you up to speed, I was poking fun at BRG with the stupid comments.

Inability to differentiate talent is not a matter of intelligence. Hockey scouts have this ability, but display the same range of intelligence as the rest of us.

BTW,

I have never once stated I thought the prices would be "slightly" reduced. In fact, IMO the prices would be significantly slashed, especially in the initial start up stage.

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11-26-2004, 01:51 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Let me ask you this-What is the absolute maximum price you'd pay to see an OHL game?
What relevance does this have?

I

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11-26-2004, 02:18 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Shakes,

Just to get you up to speed, I was poking fun at BRG with the stupid comments.

Inability to differentiate talent is not a matter of intelligence. Hockey scouts have this ability, but display the same range of intelligence as the rest of us.

BTW,

I have never once stated I thought the prices would be "slightly" reduced. In fact, IMO the prices would be significantly slashed, especially in the initial start up stage.

How then does the league generate revenue?

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11-26-2004, 02:20 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
What relevance does this have?

I
I'd like to know so that I have an idea of how much the NHL could charge for tickets using minor leaguers. So how much? $50? $100? $200? If people go see the game and not the players, then why would ticket prices be redued at all?

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11-26-2004, 04:32 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
I'd like to know so that I have an idea of how much the NHL could charge for tickets using minor leaguers. So how much? $50? $100? $200? If people go see the game and not the players, then why would ticket prices be redued at all?
What do junior aged players have to do with replacement players?

Surely you're not suggesting the play would be at the same level, are you?

Prices would be reduced to win back fans after the lockout.

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11-26-2004, 05:32 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
What do junior aged players have to do with replacement players?

Surely you're not suggesting the play would be at the same level, are you?

Prices would be reduced to win back fans after the lockout.
No, you're suggesting the minor leaguers would be able to be passed off as major leaguers to the rubes.

Why would prices need to be reduced if the game is the draw and the players are meaningless?

So what's the max you would pay to see replacement NHL players?

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11-26-2004, 06:02 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild
A real fan wouldnt think the solution is to break the union. That is something one with a lack of control of their life would think. A power victory. Never mentioning the game itself.
A real fan wouldn't have brown hair.

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11-26-2004, 06:30 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
No, you're suggesting the minor leaguers would be able to be passed off as major leaguers to the rubes.

Why would prices need to be reduced if the game is the draw and the players are meaningless?

So what's the max you would pay to see replacement NHL players?
NO, that is your lame interpretation of his opinion. If the league begins again using replacement players, it is absolutely clear that the fan would know they were replacement players. It's also clear that his opinion is that the hockey would likey be interesting to watch, and that the prices would be reduced significantly to get the fans back in the building. Low prices, bigger numbers.

If you disagree with this opinion, just say so. There's no need to start pissing off posters because you hold a different position.

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11-26-2004, 07:01 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by quat
NO, that is your lame interpretation of his opinion. If the league begins again using replacement players, it is absolutely clear that the fan would know they were replacement players. It's also clear that his opinion is that the hockey would likey be interesting to watch, and that the prices would be reduced significantly to get the fans back in the building. Low prices, bigger numbers.

If you disagree with this opinion, just say so. There's no need to start pissing off posters because you hold a different position.
Here's what he said. Tell me how I'm misintepreting this:
"Most can't tell the difference and a large number would pay even NHL level prices just to make a point to the NHLPA. Of course, they won't be forced to as ticket prices will be significantly lower."

If thats not arguing that replacment players can be passed off to the rubes then I don't know what is.


Since he won't answer, I'll ak you. What is the most you'd pay to see replacemnt players play in the NHL?

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11-26-2004, 07:07 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Since he won't answer, I'll ak you. What is the most you'd pay to see replacemnt players play in the NHL?
If you get Ben Affleck... I wouldn't pay a thing...

If you get Jennifer Love Hewitt playing in her underwear... I'd pay about $30...

If professional athletes can try to be movie stars... There might be a marketing opportunity here to get movie stars to try and be hockey players...

Edit: Silly idea, yes... but considering that the NHL wouldn't be able to compete on 'product', my point is consider altering the 'value offering' for the time being... A problem that keeps coming up is getting the US exposed to hockey (and a lockout can significantly hinder this)... Have movie stars explain the different rules of hockey (i.e. offside, a body check, etc.) and then have them play it out... Have the stars explain who the great players are and what makes them so great (in comedic fashion)... Great laughs and a good time for the whole family... while receiving a 'hockey education'...

You'd get great US media exposure, you'd get a good turn out, and you'd hopefully get people talking about and understanding hockey better... Hockey's a product that sells itself... once someone understands what is going on... once someone experiences watching it in an arena... Get them there, and get them to picture themselves watching an actual game...

Once the CBA negotiations come to a conclusion... you've got boatloads of new US hockey fans


Last edited by I in the Eye: 11-26-2004 at 07:33 PM.
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11-26-2004, 09:11 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Here's what he said. Tell me how I'm misintepreting this:
"Most can't tell the difference and a large number would pay even NHL level prices just to make a point to the NHLPA. Of course, they won't be forced to as ticket prices will be significantly lower."
I'll try one more time to see if you can get the point.

A large portion of hockey fans, in both Canada and the States, can't tell the difference between top level AHLers and marginal NHLers, especially when they are playing against each other.

The prices will be lowered. My point about paying NHL prices was simply to demonstrate how pissed off many fans are at the NHLPA and would willingly aid the owners in helping defeat the union even if it meant spending some extra money to do so.


Quote:
If thats not arguing that replacment players can be passed off to the rubes then I don't know what is.
It's pretty clear that you don't know what is.


Quote:
Since he won't answer, I'll ak you. What is the most you'd pay to see replacemnt players play in the NHL?
Whatever the owners charge.

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11-26-2004, 11:55 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by me2
A slaughterhouse near where I lived had financial problems. They told the union they needed to restructure wages, cut overtime penalties and such or they would have to close. The union laughed in their face, it had fought long and hard for those increases and it wasn't giving them up. Again the company asked for concessions to remain viable. The union refused to look at the books or believe them. The company closed. The union still held out to call their bluff despite workers concerns. To make its point the company stripped the building and sold it for scrap, scorched earth style, then walked away never to return. 1/3 of the towns jobs disappeared, also never to return. I guess it was a win to the union because it held strong throughout.
Wow, and this is the kind of "logic" advocated by Bill Guerin.

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11-27-2004, 08:00 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
I'll try one more time to see if you can get the point.

A large portion of hockey fans, in both Canada and the States, can't tell the difference between top level AHLers and marginal NHLers, especially when they are playing against each other.

The prices will be lowered. My point about paying NHL prices was simply to demonstrate how pissed off many fans are at the NHLPA and would willingly aid the owners in helping defeat the union even if it meant spending some extra money to do so.




It's pretty clear that you don't know what is.




Whatever the owners charge.

But people can tell the difference between good players and AHL'ers. You're missing that point.

You're also not realizing that the average guy on the street doesn't have such a militant attitude toward either side in this. He's the one that they need to make money, and he won't pay full pop to see 2nd rate talent.

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11-27-2004, 08:38 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper
You're right, I didn't remember they had grown that big. But their net profit was "only" 9 billion which is actually only 3.6% profit margin, i.e. not much.
Moreover, looking at the 5 year chart of their stock, you'll see a downtrend that has not returned anything to long-term investors, only swing traders. In addition, Wal-Mart paid out only 0.94% in dividends last year.... hell, I can better than that from 1 year CD's!!!

Wal-Mart is a completely market-penetrated, non-growth stock with a P/E of 22.4, paying out less than 1% when inflation is somewhere around 6% while coming into another nasty recession. Very over-priced IMO.

The fact is, that right now, they can't afford to pay anyone anymore than they currently do. If there was an announcement that they were caving to popular (read uneducated) opinion vis a vis their labour model, there would be an investor revolt, and lawsuits galore.

I'm not defending Wal-Mart at this point, just pointing out the realities of the current sitch.

Real economics, not socialist propaganda, will yield the solution to the NHL's problems. As a fan we should not care how much money the players or the owners make. To use that in our arguments is to betray our own envy of either side, and colour our analysis.

Personally, I want to see some hockey played, I really don't care who wins this war. It's our money they're fighting over,let them cater to us, as opposed to trying to manipulate us and each other.

Ta,

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11-27-2004, 04:39 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joechip
Moreover, looking at the 5 year chart of their stock, you'll see a downtrend that has not returned anything to long-term investors, only swing traders. In addition, Wal-Mart paid out only 0.94% in dividends last year.... hell, I can better than that from 1 year CD's!!!

Wal-Mart is a completely market-penetrated, non-growth stock with a P/E of 22.4, paying out less than 1% when inflation is somewhere around 6% while coming into another nasty recession. Very over-priced IMO.

The fact is, that right now, they can't afford to pay anyone anymore than they currently do. If there was an announcement that they were caving to popular (read uneducated) opinion vis a vis their labour model, there would be an investor revolt, and lawsuits galore.

I'm not defending Wal-Mart at this point, just pointing out the realities of the current sitch.

Real economics, not socialist propaganda, will yield the solution to the NHL's problems. As a fan we should not care how much money the players or the owners make. To use that in our arguments is to betray our own envy of either side, and colour our analysis.

Personally, I want to see some hockey played, I really don't care who wins this war. It's our money they're fighting over,let them cater to us, as opposed to trying to manipulate us and each other.

Ta,

Excelleeeeeent.

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Old
11-27-2004, 04:59 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
I'll try one more time to see if you can get the point.

A large portion of hockey fans, in both Canada and the States, can't tell the difference between top level AHLers and marginal NHLers, especially when they are playing against each other.
It is a pretty stupid point. The top level AHL player is virtually indistinguishable from the players in NHL pressboxes. The players in NHL pressboxes is virtually indistinguishable from the last few guys who get to dress. So what?

The difference between the top NHL players and the top AHL players is vast. The difference between the average NHL and average AHL player is vast. The difference between NHL hockey and the hockey presented by replacement players - failed AHL players and ECHL stars - is vast.

Tom

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11-27-2004, 05:31 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Tom_Benjamin
It is a pretty stupid point. The top level AHL player is virtually indistinguishable from the players in NHL pressboxes. The players in NHL pressboxes is virtually indistinguishable from the last few guys who get to dress. So what?

The difference between the top NHL players and the top AHL players is vast. The difference between the average NHL and average AHL player is vast. The difference between NHL hockey and the hockey presented by replacement players - failed AHL players and ECHL stars - is vast.

Tom
C'mon you're giving the rubes too much credit and Betman not enough. They'll easily get 20,000 people to pay full pop just to show the PA who's boss.

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11-27-2004, 07:44 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Tom_Benjamin
It is a pretty stupid point. The top level AHL player is virtually indistinguishable from the players in NHL pressboxes. The players in NHL pressboxes is virtually indistinguishable from the last few guys who get to dress. So what?

The difference between the top NHL players and the top AHL players is vast. The difference between the average NHL and average AHL player is vast. The difference between NHL hockey and the hockey presented by replacement players - failed AHL players and ECHL stars - is vast.

Tom
while i agree that the SKILL LEVEL difference between nhl players and minor leaguers are great, im not sure the ENTERTAINMENT LEVEL difference is as great. i've watched a couple of ahl games, a couple of echl games, and about 5 or 6 junior games, and honestly i thought they are just as entertaining as the nhl. especially the junior games between chl and the russians, i would definitly pay to watch it. maybe not $100, but surely anywhere from $25-$50.

 
Old
11-27-2004, 09:11 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by SuperKarateMonkey
while i agree that the SKILL LEVEL difference between nhl players and minor leaguers are great, im not sure the ENTERTAINMENT LEVEL difference is as great. i've watched a couple of ahl games, a couple of echl games, and about 5 or 6 junior games, and honestly i thought they are just as entertaining as the nhl. especially the junior games between chl and the russians, i would definitly pay to watch it. maybe not $100, but surely anywhere from $25-$50.
I won't pay $100 to watch NHL players but that's another story. I've really enjoyed all the games against the Russian Juniors. As always I'm really looking forward to the World Juniors next month. I regularly go watch the local Tier II Junior team.

I do see a difference in tempo between a televised AHL or Junior game and a televised NHL game, but it isn't that noticeable because television slows it down so much. But live? Every time I go to an NHL game, the speed and violence stuns me. It is a huge step from Junior to the AHL and the final step is the biggest one of all.
Everything happens so fast in an NHL game. There is no comparison.

The fans will at the rink will notice for sure.

Tom

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