ASG was making some great progress with player acquisition and they had few assets as well....so far in my opinion chevy's hasnt drafted or traded with the same effectiveness...i know he's only been at it a year, but my expectations are that he is at least as good as the evil empire that was ASG....
He's signed Wellwood, Glass and Flood, all of them providing tremendous bang for buck. He also picked up Clitsome (who looks like a keeper) without giving up a single asset, and IMO fleeced the Hawks in acquiring a 2nd and 3rd for Oduya. The acquisitions that haven't panned out (Fehr, McArdle, MacLean, to a lesser extent Jones and Miettinen) were acquired with next to zero assets given up and contracts that aren't problematic.
The progress you're talking about with the Thrashers appears to have been more out of necessity. They pawned off Kovalchuk and Lehtonen at the deadline, and lost MacArthur, Armstrong, Hedberg, Kubina and Afinogenov through free agency. I don't recall the exact cap ramifications at the time, but I imagine Byfuglien and Ladd were basically acquired to get them above the floor. They found a seller (Chicago) that desperately needed to get out of cap hell, one that Dudley had good trade relations with to boot.
I get where you're coming from Peter, you want the Jets to be more aggressive on the signing and trade front. That's cool. But I really think this is an apples to oranges comparison you're bringing up.
He's signed Wellwood, Glass and Flood, all of them providing tremendous bang for buck. He also picked up Clitsome (who looks like a keeper) without giving up a single asset, and IMO fleeced the Hawks in acquiring a 2nd and 3rd for Oduya. The acquisitions that haven't panned out (Fehr, McArdle, MacLean, to a lesser extent Jones and Miettinen) were acquired with next to zero assets given up and contracts that aren't problematic.
The progress you're talking about with the Thrashers appears to have been more out of necessity. They pawned off Kovalchuk and Lehtonen at the deadline, and lost MacArthur, Armstrong, Hedberg, Kubina and Afinogenov through free agency. I don't recall the exact cap ramifications at the time, but I imagine Byfuglien and Ladd were basically acquired to get them above the floor. They found a seller (Chicago) that desperately needed to get out of cap hell, one that Dudley had good trade relations with to boot.
I get where you're coming from Peter, you want the Jets to be more aggressive on the signing and trade front. That's cool. But I really think this is an apples to oranges comparison you're bringing up.
My impression of the Chicago / Atlanta deal was the Black Hawks were in cap hell due to salaries , sure but not submitting qualifying offers in time or something very close to that effect.
Chicago simply HAD to make trades to unload dollars and Atlanta didn't do it to get to a cap floor but rather to acquire talent that they had to replenish. I could be wrong that was my impression, no?
This thread was an interesting read after an exceptionally long day at the office. I read the article this morning and didn't think much of it. To me it pretty much just kept to the company line. Build through the draft. Of course this will be true. It is the only way to get high-end cheap (at least initially) labour. Most teams acquire their core of players this way. It doesn't mean True North/Chevy won't make trades and try to sign FA. Just don't expect block busters unless they really think it is a big upgrade at a good price. No one wants them to pull off a Kessel trade and mire us in the basement for years to come.
My impression of the Chicago / Atlanta deal was the Black Hawks were in cap hell due to salaries , sure but not submitting qualifying offers in time or something very close to that effect.
Chicago simply HAD to make trades to unload dollars and Atlanta didn't do it to get to a cap floor but rather to acquire talent that they had to replenish. I could be wrong that was my impression, no?
The Hawks qualifying offer fiasco was in the summer of '09 IIRC.
Like I said, I don't remember the exact ramifications, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have been above the cap floor without Ladd and Byfuglien on the books.
1. ASG, management, whoever....my point is that the previous regime was working hard to make this team better at the NHL level...they made some excellent trades and some astute draft picks....all i ask is that TNSE do the same...
2. so, you are saying that their picks and trades in the last 3 seasons were not good ones?....
3. those trades were last year and the year before...not in some bygone era when trades were easy to make....boston didnt think they were getting fleeced....it was just a smart trade by ASG....there are lots of teams that need to shed salary...just like there was last year.
4. again...why are you suggesting that we trade our draft picks to sneak into the playoffs...i have given some very good examples of trades that have made this team better in the long term....ASG traded a first and second for a 26 year old all star defenceman who signed for 5 years.....that is an intelligent use of an asset that we have.....i am only suggesting that TNSE consider the same...when I do I get branded as short sighted.
5. clearly it is difficult, but trades are an important part of team development.....just like the draft is....i simply disagree with the assertion on this board that it absolutely has to be one or the other...you have to do both.
1. Atlanta's point totals since they won the SE Division in 2006-07 were 76, 76, 83, 80. Very slow improvement at best. A lot of their trades were out necessity, yes, but they made some bad ones too. The only problem was that those deals negatively affected the team. The poor Jets deals have not improved the team, necessarily, but they haven't hurt the team either. With the lack of activity, they're 3 points out of 6 possible from their best record in 5 years.
2. I think they've made some decent ones, and some bad ones. The opportunities for those trades were there though, opportunities that aren't necessarily available now.
3 and 4. Again, circumstances were special at that point. I don't really see a 26 year old all-star defenceman that will be available for those picks this year, do you? Unless you're getting a great return for a top 10 draft pick, there's really no point in dumping it.
5. You're almost right where trades are important to the team: SENSIBLE trades are important to the team. If there are no sensible trades out there, there is no point in making one. There aren't deals coming across Chevy's desk that he's saying "No, I don't think I want a big scoring forward because I want to keep my 3rd rounder". If there's a good trade out there, then great. If there isn't, then too bad.
I think Hank is right in that you want big impact moves that will make the team better now. Ultimately, those kind of deals are rare and just don't happen every year. It's the first season, the new city, new coach, and new GM dynamic DO come into play here.
Honestly I do think Dudley did a good job in the off season rebuilding a team that lost Kovy.
In fairness the people In Boston I talk to still like the Peverley deal and would not want a do over and that is after they saw the new improved Wheels play this year. Clearly a trade that worked well for both teams given the short term results Boston got in the playoffs with Rich picking up 12 points in their cup run.
Ladd was a sweet pick up for a 2nd round pick and they jumped on Chicago who was dumping salary after a cup and Like Wheeler Ladd was able to move to the top line and with the extra time and responsibility was able to put up career numbers.
the Buff move took courage and it was expensive a 1st and a 2nd and a pretty rich long term deal for a guy who at best had been inconsisitant up to that point. On balance it was a decent move.
Atlanta was kind of stuck in a tough spot with Kovy gone and I think they mortgaged some of the future to land some key pieces. 1 x 1st round and 2 x 2nd rounds + Peverley for Ladd, Buff, Wheeler (there were other players like Stuart involved as well but this was the principle players)
On Balance I would say Dudley did pretty well given the challenge he had
However now we have new owners and they have a better base than Dudley started with (see the above assets) they have decided to build in a different fashion acquiring 2 x 2nd round picks and a 3rd round pick in the past season. 2013 at this point is going to be a year we can really fill up our prospect pool if we keep our picks with 6 picks in the top 90.
Now we don't know maybe they will use these newly aquired picks to bundle up and get some more developed talent that helps their long term vision.
I think we need to let this play out a bit Dudley did what he had to do at the time to get his team competitive "short term" and I think TNSE had some wiggle room and felt they could compete with what they had and some free agents and they are taking a longer term view now In regaurds to draft pick managment.
To be fair to TNSE they did pick up Wellwood who had 50 points this year and they did add a character 4th line player in Glass both savvy pick ups for great value. Fehr bombed and Mitts bombed until recently but you win some and you lose some and we didn't have to give up assets to get these guys. A more modest path that yielded results while preserving and gathering picks
I think TNSE's top priority is draft and develop but they will absolutely trade and aquire Free agents.....this is not an either or it's just how they weight their priorities no?
Edit: looks like Hank and tbcwpg beat me too it while I was feeding my daughter and creating a post
any draft pick that we have coming to us...anyone in any junior league...anyone in the AHL and anyone not named bogosian, burmistrov, wheeler or pavalec.
this team had as many assets when they made the ladd, buff trades as we do now.
This is untrue. What assets we do have now have become part of our NHL team. We traded the assets that we acquired when Kovy and Letonen were traded. That's how we were able to acquire Ladd and Buff. The Ladd trade was by far a steal for Winnipeg (Ivan Vishnevskiy considered a good prospect at the time + 2011 2nd rounder). The Buff trade cost us a lot more than just a 1st + 2nd rounder. It also contained 1 of our best prospects in Jeremy Morin (he'd most likely be our 2nd best prospect behind Scheifele), forget about the other garbage in that deal . We were able to make the Buff trade because we had an extra 1st rounder (24th overall) from the Kovy trade. Without that I doubt that the deal is made.
I'm not one against making trades, but you do need to take the previous trades into context, which you downplayed quite a bit IMO.
Apparently Peter Sullivan is seemingly unable to grasp the concept of building around a small core of players; I'm not attacking the poster, only his lack of understanding of this issue.
Peter, neither the team nor the fans are against trades as per your claim, only against the trading of a small group of core players, of draft picks, and of prospects. They've said they are willing to do what it takes within reason to improve the team.
Take a group of 4 or 5 young players from the current roster and consider them as your core that you won't trade; now consider everything else on the roster to be available for trade - if that trade improves the team within their wishes. They may even trade an excess draft pick or two at the draft in order to move up to pick a player they desire. None of the above constitutes "not trading" as per your claim, but rather it amounts to the protection and growth of key assets while in the process also accomplishing the eventual build of a larger core group.
Finally, trading is more difficult now anyway due the salary cap and the requirement to take back similarly priced assets. Building a team from within is the prudent course of action.
With a couple of exceptions virtualy every team in the league has build their core group of players through the draft. If you think about it.. it only makes sense. Once a year the teams get to pick through the best players of that age group, and at no loss to to their team's talent level get to sign and develop them at little financial cost. It just takes a little patience, some luck and a good eye for talent.
This is untrue. What assets we do have now have become part of our NHL team. We traded the assets that we acquired when Kovy and Letonen were traded. That's how we were able to acquire Ladd and Buff. The Ladd trade was by far a steal for Winnipeg (Ivan Vishnevskiy considered a good prospect at the time + 2011 2nd rounder). The Buff trade cost us a lot more than just a 1st + 2nd rounder. It also contained 1 of our best prospects in Jeremy Morin (he'd most likely be our 2nd best prospect behind Scheifele), forget about the other garbage in that deal . We were able to make the Buff trade because we had an extra 1st rounder (24th overall) from the Kovy trade. Without that I doubt that the deal is made.
I'm not one against making trades, but you do need to take the previous trades into context, which you downplayed quite a bit IMO.
Exactly, I came to post something similar.
The Jets do NOT have the same amount of assets that they had when the made the Ladd, Buff, Wheeler, and Stuart deals. Like Paradise said, they had assets from the Kovy deal. As much as I am glad to have Buff on the team, we don't know right know the worth of the assets given up to get him. The 1st could have been used on Hayes, Howden, Kuznetzov, Coyle, Etem, Nelson, Knight, Faulk, etc. The 2nd could have been used on guys like Merrill, DSP, Spooner, Jarnkrok, etc. Not that Buff hasn't been great for the franchise, but an organization can't always be giving up multiple assets for 1 asset. How would Kuznetzov, DSP, and Morin look for the Jets in a few years? All I am saying is that it's not sustainable for an org to use their picks and prospects as continual trading chips where they are dealing multiples of them to get a single player back. At some stage, it will blow up in our face.
Plus, the Chicago deal was unique in that Chicago got themselves in a terrible cap position. Is there a team in that position today so we can try it again? And in regards to Detroit trading away their 1st round pick again, have you looked at their prospect pool and compared it to ours? THAT is why they can do it. Their pool is 1000% times better than ours, AND their NHL team is better as well.
I think you are also being purposely argumentative when you try to paint the majority of people here as not wanting any trades whatsoever. No one is saying that the only thing TNSE will ever do is draft players and make no trades or sign 0 free agents. Heck, we've already made trades and signed free agents in the 1st year! Do they not count because they were not blockbuster enough?
The example of the Ladd and Buff trades and claiming that that model is sustainable is false IMO. Sure, both Buff and Ladd were not old players when the trades were made. But a team cannot trade away picks for 3,4,5 years in a row and not expect negative consequences. At some point, the roster that you have acquired will be older, and you will not have anyone in the pipeline to replace them. That is why a team like Detroit can deal away a 1st for a few years in a row, and why Nashville could deal a 1st for a plugger like Gaustad this year. They have a fully stocked cupboard of prospects that can soften the blow of the lost pick. The Jets? Our prospect cupboard is bare.
So it was made pretty clear that the best comparison in how we would like to run our franchise is in the form of the Nashville Predators? And people have a problem with that? Not so sure I understand.
I'll say it again. Do people really, honestly, and truthfully believe that we are not going to make trades? or sign a UFA? come on. Does any team ever not trade? even just a little bit? A bunch of hoopla from a couple people over nothing, in my opinion. Of course, some of these complaints of our lack of noise in the free agent market were being made last July and August, so try and figure that one out.
I think most would enjoy being run like the Nashville Predators, no? I would. They are an envied franchise in my opinion, they're professional, classy, they do it the right way.
This is a team who has been a consistent playoff team for almost a decade. This is a team who doesn't throw assets away, this is a team who doesn't make the most trades, this is a team who doesn't spend the most money, and this is a team who has yet to draft in the top 5 in how many years? And they're a contender? And some find this a bad thing for us to model our franchise after? Some are just too quick to the punch.
Let's look at the Nashville Predators roster, just for a minute.
Forwards
Martin Erat - Drafted by Nashville in the 7th Round, 191st Overall in 1999.
David Legwand - Drafted by Nashville in the 1st Round, 2nd Overall in 1998.
Mike Fisher - Acquired via trade in February 2011.
Sergei Kostitsyn - Acquired via trade in June 2010.
Patric Hornqvist - Drafted by Nashville in the 7th Round, 230th Overall in 2005.
Andrei Kostitsyn - Acquired via trade in February 2012.
Alexander Radulov - Drafted by Nashville in the 1st Round, 15th Overall in 2004.
Colin Wilson - Drafted by Nashville in the 1st Round, 7th Overall in 2008.
Craig Smith - Drafted by Nashville in the 4th Round, 98th Overall in 2009.
Jordin Tootoo - Drafted by Nashville in the 4th Round, 98th Overall in 2001.
Matt Halischuk - Acquired via trade in June 2010.
Paul Gaustad - Acquired via trade in February 2012.
Nick Spaling - Drafted by Nashville in the 2nd Round, 58th Overall in 2007.
Gabriel Bourque - Drafted by Nashville in the 5th Round, 132nd Overall in 2009.
Brandon Yip - Acquired via waivers in January 2012.
Brian McGratton - Acquired via waivers in October 2011.
Defence
Shea Weber - Drafted by Nashville in the 2nd Round, 49th Overall in 2003.
Ryan Suter - Drafted by Nashville in the 1st Round, 7th Overall in 2003.
Kevin Klein - Drafted by Nashville in the 2nd Round, 37th Overall in 2003.
Roman Josi - Drafted by Nashville in the 2nd Round, 38th Overall in 2008.
Hal Gill - Acquired via trade in February of 2012.
Ryan Ellis - Drafted by Nashville in the 1st Round, 11th Overall in 2009.
Francis Bouillon - Signed as a UFA in September 2009.
Jonathan Blum - Drafted by Nashville in the 1st Round, 23rd Overall in 2007.
Jack Hillen - Signed as a UFA in August of 2011.
Goaltenders
Pekka Rinne - Drafted by Nashville in the 8th Round, 258th Overall in 2004.
Anders Lindback - Drafted by Nashville in the 7th Round, 207th Overall in 2008.
That is amazing. Simply amazing. They have gotten to this point and had this much consistency and are now contenders. Who do they have to thank for it? trades? Nope. Signing UFA's? Nope. Scouting, Drafting and Developing? Yes.
Out of those 27 players who have played at least 30 games for Nashville this year (including Lindback who has played just 14 games as the backup goaltender and Radulov who has just played 6 games for obvious reasons), they have drafted 17 of those players, traded for 6 of those players and signed just 4 of those players in Free Agency/Waivers.
Drafed by Nashville: Erat, Legwand, Hornqvist, Radulov, Wilson, Smith, Tootoo, Spaling, Bourque, Weber, Suter, Klein, Josi, Ellis, Blum, Rinne and Lindback.
Traded for: Fisher, A. Kostitsyn, S. Kostitsyn, Haslischuk, Gaustad, Gill.
I LOVE that Mark Chipman has said the best comparison in how we want to do things as a franchise is in the same model as the Nashville Predators.
At this point, I don't give a crap if we sign a UFA this summer, of course I would like too, but the way Chipman says we're going to do things as a franchise gives me hope regardless of if we sign UFA's or make yearly trades. I hope we don't sign any quality UFA's so it can piss people off. Is that playing with fire? Ya, maybe. Not all franchises will be as good and/or as lucky as Nashville, but you know what? I believe in our organization and the people running it and if that means doing things the hard way, on our own, just like Nashville... I'm willing to give that a try. If we sign a nice free agent or two, I'll consider that some nice icing on the cake. Tell me I am drinking the kool-aid all you want. Try telling someone the way Nashville does things is ludicrous, wrong, etc. and you'll be laughed at.
With all of this being said, I do believe we will sign a UFA or two here and there each offseason, and I do believe we will make trades yearly just as any other organization, but our main business model and bread and butter will come from within, and that is our scouting, drafting and developing of our own prospects.
Gill (plus conditional 2013 5th)
-Geoffrion, Slaney and 2012 2nd
Contrary to what I thought, they've been pretty aggressive in peddling their draft picks. I'm guessing that's largely a function of being in "win now" mode, as well as perhaps feeling that losing late 1st rounders can be mitigated by scouting solidly for talent in the 2nd and 3rd round.
Just to add, ps241 made a great point earlier in the thread. Yes, 29 other teams talk a good game about developing within and not mortgaging the future. How many actually stick to their guns the way Nashville has? Lots of GMs make "gun to the head" type decisions under pressure, few seem to have been as consistent as Nashville in sticking to this plan. Of course, it becomes alot easier when you can draft as well as they have.
Last edited by Hank Chinaski: 04-03-2012 at 10:15 AM.
Gill (plus conditional 2013 5th)
-Geoffrion, Slaney and 2012 2nd
Contrary to what I thought, they've been pretty aggressive in peddling their draft picks. I'm guessing that's largely a function of being in "win now" mode, as well as perhaps feeling that losing late 1st rounders can be mitigated by scouting solidly for talent in the 2nd and 3rd round.
When you have excellent depth both on the roster and in the system you can afford to make those types of deals. We are not close to that point though!
Gill (plus conditional 2013 5th)
-Geoffrion, Slaney and 2012 2nd
Contrary to what I thought, they've been pretty aggressive in peddling their draft picks. I'm guessing that's largely a function of being in "win now" mode, as well as perhaps feeling that losing late 1st rounders can be mitigated by scouting solidly for talent in the 2nd and 3rd round.
Just to add, ps241 made a great point earlier in the thread. Yes, 29 other teams talk a good game about developing within and not mortgaging the future. How many actually stick to their guns the way Nashville has? Lots of GMs make "gun to the head" type decisions under pressure, few seem to have been as consistent as Nashville in sticking to this plan. Of course, it becomes alot easier when you can draft as well as they have.
I actually surprised myself a bit in how much Nashville has really built their core from the roots of their own franchise model and philosophies. I figured they had a solid amount of homegrown players, but I was actually pretty surprised at just how many. I was also quite surprised at how little UFA's they have acquired and built this team with, and how few trades they've made.
Even since 2007, just 5 years ago, they have 8 players on their roster in which they've scouted, drafted and developed (developing). That's pretty amazing considering how recent the 2007 draft was and many of these guys are 23 years of age and younger.
Doing it the way Nashville does, they should generally always be a pretty good team. They'll hit their points I am sure when they may fight for a playoff spot given the parity, but they always seem to have a regular flow of new homegrown players coming in or players they have acquired in some way or another but they develop them in many instances. That is why they can afford to lose/let go Dan Hamhuis, Joel Ward, Marek Zidlicky, Vern Fiddler, Greg Zanon, Kimmo Timonen, Scott Hartnell, Tomas Vokoun, and to top if off they even lost Radulov for a number of years. They've had some nice seasoned vets along the way in Kariya, Sullivan, Arnott, Dumont, etc. and they all played in important roles from them at one point or another. Some of these guys left during unfortunate circumstances with ownership and financial reasons (Timonen, Hartnell) but the Nashville Predators marched on and continued doing things their way, the way they believed in and the way they believed they had to do things. And through it all, look at them now.
They may not replace these guys with just one player, but their organizational depth as a whole is so very good that they always have a "new guy" or two or three stepping into the lineup in which they've developed through their system.
I am just so amazed at how well they run their organization.
I'm fine with the approach that Chevy and TN are taking with the team but the big question for me is, is the organisation gonna cheap out on resigning the existing talent that they have? That'll say a lot about this organization for me. If they still cheap out on resigning players like Kane, Toby it'll pretty much show me that organization is not serious in building a real team and this "build through the draft" talk is all just talk. Once again, I have complete faith in the organization and the current strategy as long as they stick by it and show that they are being serious and not just cheap
During the game tonight, they were saying that Noel figures they accomplished about 40% of what they wanted to from the players this year. And after the season ends they will all be told what will be expected of them going forward as far as how they conduct themselves. You are not in Atlanta anymore boys.
Apparently Peter Sullivan is seemingly unable to grasp the concept of building around a small core of players; I'm not attacking the poster, only his lack of understanding of this issue.
Peter, neither the team nor the fans are against trades as per your claim, only against the trading of a small group of core players, of draft picks, and of prospects. They've said they are willing to do what it takes within reason to improve the team.
Take a group of 4 or 5 young players from the current roster and consider them as your core that you won't trade; now consider everything else on the roster to be available for trade - if that trade improves the team within their wishes. They may even trade an excess draft pick or two at the draft in order to move up to pick a player they desire. None of the above constitutes "not trading" as per your claim, but rather it amounts to the protection and growth of key assets while in the process also accomplishing the eventual build of a larger core group.
Finally, trading is more difficult now anyway due the salary cap and the requirement to take back similarly priced assets. Building a team from within is the prudent course of action.
not to open this up again, but how is this not exactly what i have been saying all along.....i agree completely, word for word....for some reason i got flamed for it.
i personally dont include kane or enstrom in my core but this has been precisely my argument all along....we have some great pieces to build on (many of which came through trade)...but we also have some huge holes that cant necessarily be filled in 6 years when our draft picks mature....there is also no reason to wait that long because i think we have a strong enough core that a few key additions could make this team a significant force.....we are not re-building from scratch the way so many here seem to think...
as an example, i think they need a veteran leader (a mark recchi kind of player) to be a mentor to the youth...i see this as a big reason they couldnt win on the road or in back to backs....they had nobody to lead them through it....obviously noel wasnt capable of doing it for whatever reason.......and that kind of player comes through trade or FA.
i didnt say sell the farm...i said make smart trades and draft intelligently...for some reason this got everyone's back up.....we have no assets?....in my opinion kane could return a player or players with a skill set that would fill more needs than he does....enstrom the same....we also have draft picks.
of course we have to build from within...especially because we are such a small market.....the scheiffele pick upset me because they took a huge risk and passed on a sure thing for a roll of the dice....i see the draft as too important for our long term success to make risky picks like that....even if he pans out, the high risk strategy worries me....it is a recipe for failure. (see jets 1.0)
all that doesn't mean trades cant be made to fill needs, just like ASG did....everyone seems to think they will never make trades because the hard rule is they are 'building through the draft', when obviously good teams do both....and they of course will as well.
thats all i was sayin'
Last edited by peter sullivan: 04-03-2012 at 10:58 PM.
During the game tonight, they were saying that Noel figures they accomplished about 40% of what they wanted to from the players this year. And after the season ends they will all be told what will be expected of them going forward as far as how they conduct themselves. You are not in Atlanta anymore boys.
That's really open to interpretation. It could be conditioning, systems, work ethic, anything.
not to open this up again, but how is this not exactly what i have been saying all along.....i agree completely, word for word....for some reason i got flamed for it.
i personally dont include kane or enstrom in my core but this has been precisely my argument all along....we have some great pieces to build on (many of which came through trade)...but we also have some huge holes that cant necessarily be filled in 6 years when our draft picks mature....there is also no reason to wait that long because i think we have a strong enough core that a few key additions could make this team a significant force.....we are not re-building from scratch the way so many here seem to think...
as an example, i think they need a veteran leader (a mark recchi kind of player) to be a mentor to the youth...i see this as a big reason they couldnt win on the road or in back to backs....they had nobody to lead them through it....obviously noel wasnt capable of doing it for whatever reason.......and that kind of player comes through trade or FA.
i didnt say sell the farm...i said make smart trades and draft intelligently...for some reason this got everyone's back up.....we have no assets?....in my opinion kane could return a player or players with a skill set that would fill more needs than he does....enstrom the same....we also have draft picks.
Comments like that really don't help your credibility. Let's trade a 30 goal scoring 20 year old on a team that has very little offensive depth to begin with. The best you'll get for Kane is a high draft pick (which may or may not pan out) and/or either an older ex star player to make the trade attractive, which is not going to do the team any good in the future. You don't draft 30 goal scorers every year, how many other draft picks in the last 5 years have scored 30 goals? We hit a lottery with Kane and trading him away will be seen universally as one of the worst trades of the decade
Quote:
we are such a small market.....the scheiffele pick upset me because they took a huge risk and passed on a sure thing for a roll of the dice....i see the draft as too important for our long term success to make risky picks like that....even if he pans out, the high risk strategy worries me....it is a recipe for failure. (see jets 1.0)
It's not as if Couturier is exactly lighting it up in the NHL either. Had Schiefele stayed in the NHL he would probably have around 10 goals as well by now. Not to mention that the "sure thing" was passed over by 6 other teams including Ottawa which has an excellent scouting team. Not saying Couturier will not be a good player just that he's not seen as much of a "sure thing" as you claim.
True North will not just turn a blind eye to free agents because the team is NOT ready to contend just yet. If there is a player who can be acquired and be an upgrade, I fully believe they will pursue that player. They will not however grossly overpay just for the sake of signing someone and have that contract handcuff them a couple years down the rod.
Same argument can be made for player trades. It takes two teams to make a deal and judging by the uneventfulness of Trade Deadline Day, trades are becoming increasingly more difficult to make. If there is a deal out there that Chevy feels will make this team better ie: Enstrom & Cormier for Hornqvist or Wilson & Blum, I have no doubt that he pulls the trigger.
We did manage to get an All Star defenseman in Byfuglien from Chicago for a late 1st among other assets included on both sides, but that was a unique situation as others have mentioned being that the Black Hawks were in cap hell.
Important to note was that 1st was an extra 1st. Without having that extra 1st, this deal would have been hard pressed to get done as I doubt Atlanta gives up their own high pick which was used to select Burmistrov.
Byfuglien was coming off a tremendous playoff run with Chicago and was an attractive piece to help rebuild the Thrashers. Now this year, we do not have the luxury of that extra pick and I don't know of any high profile forwards who are or would become available if our 1st were used as bait.
Point is, a player I love who is also coming off a tremendous playoff run himself is Bard Marchand. As much as I love his style of play, I don't think I would deal our 1st for Marchand straight up. Not to mention, Boston is NOT in cap hell like Chicago was and probably have no interest in trading a part of their core for a pick.
All in all, to make these sort of trades, you need a dance partner and unless it's benefitting both sides, finding that partner is extremely difficult.
I'm sure similar discussions have taken place over on the Lightning's board about getting a goaltender. They have been looking for a dance partner all season long and Schneider would be perfect for that team, but Vancouver wasn't ready to part with him. Doesn't mean they haven't tried to improve their goaltending.
Last edited by untouchable21: 04-04-2012 at 01:42 PM.
Just waiting for my plane to take off here and thought I would add one more thing when it came to us duplicating the Nashville model. I do think we might have a year or two of a bit more turbulence than Nashville would have due to the fact this is not the team Chevy and co built! In other words they they might want to move some existing key assets just because of fit that won't be as likely up the road when It is "their hand picked players"
I still son't expect a heavy burn tp rate but there might be some key pieces they move just because they want to go in Another direction.
However I do think our ownership has the loyalty And patience to win a who panics first contest with Nashville and that puts them in the rare air space
You are cheery picking one example. I could equally point to concensus top 5 pick Angelo Esposito's slide down the draft as an example of why it is a terrible idea to take sliders.
I was a Kings fan. They were famous for taking sliders in the draft for a few years in the mid 2000's under Dave Taylor, content to wait for whoever slide to them. These sliders were notable D Denis Grebeshkov (18), C Brian Boyle (26), LW Jeff Tambellini (27), LW Konstantin Pushkarev (44), RW Lauri Tukonen (11) (was considered a LOCK to be top 5), C Anze Kopitar (11). That's a pretty mixed bag.
You also conveniently forget that the biggest reach in the draft in the past DECADE is one Blake Wheeler, considered at best a mid-second round pick before PHO took him 5th overall. Turns out he is pretty much the 3rd best player in the draft after the 1st/2nd overall picks.
Under Doug Wilson the Sharks have no been hesitant to take the guys off their list, and reached for RW Devin Setoguchi (8), D Ty Wishart (16), and C Logan Couture (9) in three straight years from 05-07. Looks at least as good as the sliding players, IMO.
I am not sure where you are going with the Lubomir Visnovsky? For one, he has NEVER been an UFA. The guy is an offensive beast, solid if unspectacular defensively and a warrior that plays through injuries and gives it all for his team every night. You need to watch him more.
You seem really worked up in your response and you trashed me for in another thread for quoting Craig Button so n/s what's up but whatever. I am more than happy to keep arguing my point, especially since your arguments actually support my claim...
1. My posts were to argue why I would draft BPA. Nothing more. I wasn't attacking someone else's idea, I was providing examples to justify my own.
2. The "cherry-picking" argument I don't get. I gave a few examples. You obviously out-researched me but you cherry-picked as well. You gave a few years' examples of one team. If we both want to be thorough we should go back several years and analyze draft decisions and results for each team, not just one. I don't have that time so I'll let you.
3. Angelo Esposito example is relevant. However, he didn't just slightly drop he dropped significantly from a top 5 pick to a likely first-rounder. He failed to make the WJC team in his draft year, unlike other talented "sliders" I was thinking of such as Cam Fowler and Sean Couturier. Fowler and SC dipped, whereas Esposito literally fell in the rankings, much like John McFarland did in 2010. I would shy away from dramatic "sldiers" like that just as I would avoid fellow dramatic "slider" Nick Ebert in the 1st round this year.
4. Your Kings examples help my argument. IIRC, Grebs and Tambi were traded for Jason Blake, Boyle is a highly effective 4th line energy player who can score (24 points so far this year playing every night for NYR) and Kopitar is a franchise player who you build around. In fact, drafting Kopitar more than makes up for drafting Tukonen. Pushkarv, idk about, but I don't recall him ever being mentioned as top 30 pick.
5. I did forget Wheeler. However, he excelled 8 years after his draft year with his third team. I attribute Wheeler's success to Noel and Co. more so than to his pedigree. This is like saying the Calgary Flames deserve credit for drafting Martin St. Louis. Why? They did not develop him.
6. To be fair, you conveniently forgot to mention the reach for Thomas Hickey in your Kings' example.
7. Your Sharks' examples are the best ones. They did reach on Setoguchi and Wishart. Setoguchi worked, Wishart became trade bait. However, you're so wrong about Couture. Couture wasn't a reach he was one of my "sliders" due to injuries he sustained at the start of his draft year. I would compare him to Martin Frk, projected 1st rounder, suffered concussion, came back to play with a vengeance during the QMJHL playoffs right now.
8. I referenced Lubomir Visnovsky b/c he is an UFA this off-season. Rather than throwing big money after him, I advocated to keep the budget for the likes of Kane and Pavs. I did watch Lubo when he played for the Oilers, so your presumption is pointless.
I should have better defined how much "slide" I can handle. Going from top 5 to top 30 and then not making the WJC team (a la Esposito and McFarland) scares me off. I like my slide to be slight.
Not to mention, Boston is NOT in cap hell like Chicago was and probably have no interest in trading a part of their core for a pick.
