Thanks for the responses. I answered them in parts, as some of the questions overlap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tad Mikowsky
I think it's a bit much to pay for Ryan Malone. Sure, all of the mentioned have underproduced, but Malone hasn't been lights out either.
The issue is, Tampa isn't going to give away Malone, who plays a fairly important role for them. He's part of primarily their secondary scoring.
He's a powerforward and he's not going to come cheap. He's been consistent for a while and playing him with a guy like RNH-Eberle could see him sitting at 20g for most of the contract.
Apart from that, I'm not sure if we can take anything out. Ryan Whitney is key for them due to them wanting to improve their D. He helps them do that. Unfortunately he himself doesn't have enough value for us to take Gagner out. It's really something when your playing #5 ES minutes, miniscule PK minutes and #2 PP minutes on this D, and managed to put up only 20 points on the season.
Gagner himself would probably have value, but then why would Tampa do it? Malone fits their team better than Gags, so it's kinda needed that both as a part of a package imo.
Do you think there is anything else we can realistically add from Tampa to equal up the value?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DousedInOil
@OB
Also no way Nashville trades Wislon for a 2nd.
See I'm not so sure. Wilson had great potential coming out. I remember he had powerforward potential who plays a two-way game, is terrific down low and can pot 20g. His issue is, for some reason, Trotz doesn't exactly like him.
Now assuming they want to keep all this scoring, they'll have Fisher, Erat, S-Kost, A-Kost, Radulov and Legwand fighting for TOI. Then add in young(ish) guys like Craig Smith and Hornqvist.
The guy has scored 35 points in two straight seasons, I don't think he has that much value. While they could trade him for defensive help, who is exactly is available? Trotz has shown demanding only D-man who can play good D in his system, so guys like Franson won't be targeted.
I think in terms of value, getting basically a low first (if NJD forfeit their 1st this season, and we keep the 2nd overall place, we'll have the first 'official' 2nd round pick in the 2nd round I believe) and a C who has played in your system before is pretty good value for an underachieving forward. Especially considering that forward has put up 35-40 points in a system similar to yours.
I'm not sure they can expect much more. With our 2nd, they could pick a player who fits them more. Especially considering they have a certain type of player they like in their system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soli
I kind of hate the Tampa deal. Omark and Gagner sure, but I have hopes for Whitney and IMO, he's a good influence on the kids and might be a glue guy going forward. I think an offseason of conditioning and strengthening those ankles/feet will bring some mobility back. Malone would be a positive edition. Don't really care for Kucherov unless we have Grigorenko (and Gusev!) as well.
Colin Wilson... haven't seen enough of him to venture a guess on it. Not sure he's the answer to size down the middle. Then again... have to start somewhere.
I think pushing Petry to 3 years would be a coup. I'd imagine he wants a 1 or 2 year deal. Is there a difference when he turns UFA? Does he still have 5 years as an RFA?
Well Kucherov was something to add to Malone to give us some value back. Any idea on who else to get? I didn't see a whole to pick from.
I think Colin Wilson could get 50points on our team. Give him time with the linemates I've said, and I think he'd do well. Him and Hall could be a good pairing primarily I think.
Whitney to me has shown more than ankle issues. His hockey sense has been lacking. I've seen him make bad passes, make bad pinches and make bad decisions defensively. While it's a loss, I think it's high time we get away from keeping a guy for mostly sentimental reasons.
With Petry, I'd do two years, or go 3 years and increase the salary given.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK Dandyman
Nicely put together.
Stralman is very intriguing especially if we can get him for cheap. He still can grow and mature further at only age 25.
Jason Garrison is a free agent trap imo. He can shoot but that's about it. Goals come from playing with Campbell and being on PP with him. Okay defensively but not physical nor a shutdown d. Not a puck moving or puck rushing d man. 16g 15a is a dangerous stats for a d man with more goals than assist, it means he isn't very good at playmaking or puck moving. Goals will easily dry up next yr when teams start to watch out for him a little more.
Basically Garrison is a little bit better but not that much better than Corey Potter. At $4.5M per on a long term deal, let's see which team falls victim to the trap.
Cheers for the compliment.
On Stralman, I agree he'd be a cheap pick up who's better than both Potter and Sutton, and arguably Whitney this season.
Garrison is where we disagree. With all due respect, I don't think you have watch Garrison play too often.
This guy isn't Souray or Potter at all.
Not Physical? in 75 games he has 124 hits and 124 blocked shots.
And not a shut down D? He's played 1390 ES minutes (#2 on Panther D-man), 195 PK minutes (#2 on Panther D-man) and 192 PP minutes (#2 on Panther D-man).
This is a unit which has led Florida to give the 7th least goals in the NHL and averages 2.64 GA/G (12th in the NHL).
While normally this could be helped if they had a stud goaltender, but they are propping up Jose Theodore and Scott Clemmenson(sp?).
If nothing else, we are paying for absolutely rock solid defense. In 2 of his 3 NHL seasons, he's played top-pairing minutes in all situations for the Panthers.
To compare him to Potter, an AHL jobber never seeing even consistent bottom pairing NHL minutes makes absolutely zero sense.
He has a big shot, and he's having a break out season, but consider he's playing on a much better PP. Like I said, worst case scenario we don't get much of his offense, but we get a guy who can play some serious tough minutes and is an absolute rock defensively. Also, his breakout pass isn't that bad, it's alot like Schultz, and normally since he's on a pairing with Brian Campbell, Soupy will use his sublime breakout pass.
__________________ <-- Credit goes to The Nemesis.
Last edited by Oilbleeder: 04-05-2012 at 03:15 PM.
OB after your presentation and info on Garrison I'm starting to like him as a FA target. What do you think the realistic chances that he leaves FLA are? Might be comfortable with the team that gave him a shot and FLA must have the cap space to sign him to a nice deal, no?
Adam Hall is a fringe NHLer and more of a rich man's Colin Fraser. I'd just as well give Lander/VandeVelde the 4th line C spot than give $1M to Hall. Or better yet, just keep Belanger. I have serious doubts Nashville would give up Wilson for him and a 2nd anyway.
Also, that seems like an awful lot to give up for Ryan Malone. If we want a $4.5M LW with size, why not just give Penner's agent a call on July 1st?
__________________
If you are offended by this post, it's probably because you're ugly.
Adam Hall is a fringe NHLer and more of a rich man's Colin Fraser. I'd just as well give Lander/VandeVelde the 4th line C spot than give $1M to Hall. Or better yet, just keep Belanger. I have serious doubts Nashville would give up Wilson for him and a 2nd anyway.
Also, that seems like an awful lot to give up for Ryan Malone. If we want a $4.5M LW with size, why not just give Penner's agent a call on July 1st?
Probably because Malone has actually shown that he gives a **** in game situations and will stand up for teammates.
Probably because Malone has actually shown that he gives a **** in game situations and will stand up for teammates.
There are a half dozen videos on Youtube that would prove otherwise. He's a risk to give a big contract considering his recent struggles, but he showed some heart when he played here.
He's a big man with some talent still in there. It would be a big steal to have him come in and perform well. Not to mention it would piss off Dean Lombardi to no end.
I don't think Tambo should sit on his hands, but to acquire a 32 year old gritty forward that probably has 3 solid years left isn't the most appealing player. Obviously I am a fan of Malone but not at the cost of a younger top 4 dman and a 2nd line center that is still only 22. Here is what I propose:
To Toronto:
Sam Gagner
To Edmonton:
Luke Schenn
Edmonton gets a top 4 defenceman that is still young and can grow with the team while Toronto adds some offence and a center that they could use. I know Toronto fans aren't as high on Gagner as we are but he is a considerable upgrade over Connolly and Bozak at this point.
To Buffalo:
Magnus Paajarvi
To Edmonton:
Mark Pysyk
Pysyk is ready to push for an NHL spot and Buffalo needs some size and speed along the wings. I think it could be a win-win for both teams.
We add size into our top 6 and have Grigorenko slowly work his way into a center. We also add defensive depth when injuries strike.
Not a chance Pysyk will be a 5th 6th dman in the Nhl and no better offense than Smid he is so overated watch him lots nothing special at all about Pysyk
On Stralman, I agree he'd be a cheap pick up who's better than both Potter and Sutton, and arguably Whitney this season.
Garrison is where we disagree. With all due respect, I don't think you have watch Garrison play too often.
This guy isn't Souray or Potter at all.
Not Physical? in 75 games he has 124 hits and 124 blocked shots.
And not a shut down D? He's played 1390 ES minutes (#2 on Panther D-man), 195 PK minutes (#2 on Panther D-man) and 192 PP minutes (#2 on Panther D-man).
This is a unit which has led Florida to give the 7th least goals in the NHL and averages 2.64 GA/G (12th in the NHL).
While normally this could be helped if they had a stud goaltender, but they are propping up Jose Theodore and Scott Clemmenson(sp?).
If nothing else, we are paying for absolutely rock solid defense. In 2 of his 3 NHL seasons, he's played top-pairing minutes in all situations for the Panthers.
To compare him to Potter, an AHL jobber never seeing even consistent bottom pairing NHL minutes makes absolutely zero sense.
He has a big shot, and he's having a break out season, but consider he's playing on a much better PP. Like I said, worst case scenario we don't get much of his offense, but we get a guy who can play some serious tough minutes and is an absolute rock defensively. Also, his breakout pass isn't that bad, it's alot like Schultz, and normally since he's on a pairing with Brian Campbell, Soupy will use his sublime breakout pass.
Yeah i only got to watch a small sample of full Florida games, about 3 only this season, and most of the rest were channel surfing stuffs on Center Ice. And may be i watched the wrong game too, being the Oilers game in Florida and a Flyers in game in Philly earlier in March.
Garrison had pretty tough games in those. Especially the Philly game where he was borderline intimidated by the Flyers with the rough stuffs and did absolutely nothing offensively. I remembered telling myself that Jovanovski was hitting and doing all the dirty work that game in the back end, where is Garrison?
Yes, I use Potter to compare and pointed out that Garrison is the better player. Using it to compare because they are both 28 yrs old, late comers to the NHL, thru the college route, toiled in the minor for a few years. And my bad as I should be more clear about why i said Garrison is slightly better than Potter. I meant value wise, Garrison value is only slightly better if he comes in at $4.5M with a long term contract. Or may be i am just leery of an incredible raise from $675,000 to $4.5M can change a player for the worse.
His puck moving ability can easily be overrated because Campbell makes life so much easier for him. Campbell was making tape to tape passes and drew all the checkers to himself. By the time Garrison get the puck, he's got time and space. He's not one that create the space or passes. Similar to what Lidstrom has done for Ian White this year and many of his d partners.
By no means i am ripping Garrison. He's solid defensively and got a great shot. I would love to have a guy like that if he comes in at $3M, but if he comes in at $4.5-$5M and a long term, he's not my guy for that money.
There are a half dozen videos on Youtube that would prove otherwise. He's a risk to give a big contract considering his recent struggles, but he showed some heart when he played here.
He's a big man with some talent still in there. It would be a big steal to have him come in and perform well. Not to mention it would piss off Dean Lombardi to no end.
I'm 100% on the bring back Penner for the 2nd/3rd line bandwagon. As far as I can tell, he's a great teammate and he's probably one of the strongest players in the league.
I'm 100% on the bring back Penner for the 2nd/3rd line bandwagon. As far as I can tell, he's a great teammate and he's probably one of the strongest players in the league.
OB after your presentation and info on Garrison I'm starting to like him as a FA target. What do you think the realistic chances that he leaves FLA are? Might be comfortable with the team that gave him a shot and FLA must have the cap space to sign him to a nice deal, no?
I think he leaves. Seems like they have 7 dmen already under contract or under team control for next year.
I'm 100% on the bring back Penner for the 2nd/3rd line bandwagon. As far as I can tell, he's a great teammate and he's probably one of the strongest players in the league.
If you want Penner back then we need to tell Smyth goodbye
We can not have both Smyth and Penner
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LOL, this board used to turn down Kovalchuk "because he plays in the SE" and now people want to give Garrison his career contract? The dude just potted 16g (9ppg) on a very high S% with the SE as weak as ever.
He's scored only 18g in all his previous pro seasons, AHL and NHL COMBINED, while feasting on weak PK/goalie teams like TOR/NYI/CAR/TBL/CHI - more than half his goals right there... And playing with an elite PP passer in Campbell.
He SCREAMS fluke season. No thanks. Not saying it's impossible that he actually broke out properly, but he's definitely a risky signing, and he is looking for his big contract, not some 2y deals people are dreaming about here (again, maybe the market puts him back to his place, but we all know that's unlikely when UFA season is on). We also need an able outlet pass, not some guy with a canon.
Also, in other reality checks, I think Nashville would only move Wilson if it's Gagner going the other way. Maybe they add a pick, but they need offensive Cs something bad and won't throw away Wilson's potential so easily. He's 3rd on TOI/G for Cs on his team, which is right where he should be, all but 2 players named by Oilbleeder up there are wingers and so most are not competing for ice time with him at all. Not sure where his idea that Trotz dislike him comes from either. Link perhaps?
OB after your presentation and info on Garrison I'm starting to like him as a FA target. What do you think the realistic chances that he leaves FLA are? Might be comfortable with the team that gave him a shot and FLA must have the cap space to sign him to a nice deal, no?
I think he's a goner from Florida. They have 4 guys signed on D in Grud, Jovo-cop, Soupy and Weaver. Kulikov is an RFA and will get signed.
That leaves one spot on D. They have Ellerby as an RFA too. They also have Robak and Petrovic in the minors, with the former looking pretty good in his NHL stint.
I'm not sure they'll be putting more money into their D, especially considering a guy like Weaver or Kulikov can play top-pairing minutes in place of Garrison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by misfit
Adam Hall is a fringe NHLer and more of a rich man's Colin Fraser. I'd just as well give Lander/VandeVelde the 4th line C spot than give $1M to Hall. Or better yet, just keep Belanger. I have serious doubts Nashville would give up Wilson for him and a 2nd anyway.
Also, that seems like an awful lot to give up for Ryan Malone. If we want a $4.5M LW with size, why not just give Penner's agent a call on July 1st?
Difference between A.Hall and Lander/VV on our fourth line is about 8-10% on the FO dot. I'd rather have a vet who can win FO's rather than 3 C's who can't.
With Stauffer continuously dropping hints about Belanger leaving (projected line-up without Belanger next, had Lander in his place, TDD hinted Belangers wasn't a good guy in the room), I don't think he'll be here next year. And with regards to Nashville, I think that basically a low 1st + Belanger is a pretty decent package for a guy like Wilson. I'd throw a prospect or two if needed too, but nothing to bluechip esque.
Malone and Penner are two completely different players for me. Malone uses his size much more effectively. Penner, while being massive, doesn't really drive as much to the net as he should. He isn't as physical as he can, and he's not consistent enough on the puck protection area as he can. It's nothing to do with have a big body in the top-6, it's about having the guy who has the mentality to bully others with his size. Penner isn't that, and while in his time here was pretty good, he didn't create the space that he could've had he used his size well. Malone on the other hand does, and I think he could create a ton of space for guys like RNH-Eberle in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK Dandyman
Yeah i only got to watch a small sample of full Florida games, about 3 only this season, and most of the rest were channel surfing stuffs on Center Ice. And may be i watched the wrong game too, being the Oilers game in Florida and a Flyers in game in Philly earlier in March.
Garrison had pretty tough games in those. Especially the Philly game where he was borderline intimidated by the Flyers with the rough stuffs and did absolutely nothing offensively. I remembered telling myself that Jovanovski was hitting and doing all the dirty work that game in the back end, where is Garrison?
Yes, I use Potter to compare and pointed out that Garrison is the better player. Using it to compare because they are both 28 yrs old, late comers to the NHL, thru the college route, toiled in the minor for a few years. And my bad as I should be more clear about why i said Garrison is slightly better than Potter. I meant value wise, Garrison value is only slightly better if he comes in at $4.5M with a long term contract. Or may be i am just leery of an incredible raise from $675,000 to $4.5M can change a player for the worse.
His puck moving ability can easily be overrated because Campbell makes life so much easier for him. Campbell was making tape to tape passes and drew all the checkers to himself. By the time Garrison get the puck, he's got time and space. He's not one that create the space or passes. Similar to what Lidstrom has done for Ian White this year and many of his d partners.
By no means i am ripping Garrison. He's solid defensively and got a great shot. I would love to have a guy like that if he comes in at $3M, but if he comes in at $4.5-$5M and a long term, he's not my guy for that money.
Lets just agree to disagree. I think he's a rock defensively. I think at worst we'll be getting our version of a guy like Hamhuis, a guy who can give us top-pairing like defensive contribution. I'm fine with paying $4M/yr on that(I don't think he'll be getting more).
I'm not sure if you like advanced stats, but his GA/60 this season is 1.81 (best among Panther D), 2.17 GF/60 (4th best), ranks out as playing the toughest minutes on the D too.
EDIT TO ADD: Also, comparing him to Bieksa, a guy he's played similar minutes too (Bieksa has played 19 more minutes, but they are fairly similar overall), Garrison has let in 40 GA this whole season, Bieksa has let in 60 GA. Again it's something to consider.
Last edited by Oilbleeder: 04-06-2012 at 12:47 AM.
If they manage to offload Belanger (please, please let it happen) what about bringing Stoll back? He's still relatively young, a good faceoff guy and has the big shot. The negatives being he won't come at a very reasonable price for what he brings in terms of offensive production. Gaustad is also an option, and a good fit as an aggressive bigger body on the 4th line with excellent F/O skills.
Whatever happens, they will need to strengthen their F/O draws again; Horcoff is looking old and tired, and no one else was above 50% besides the much maligned Belanger. I'm hesitant to post about the D core because alot, frankly, depends on the draft to my mind. Initially I liked the Potter signing but over course of a season's work, his deficiencies have been greatly exposed. He should not be higher than a 6 on the depth chart if the D core gets properly retooled.
At this point, for similar money, I'd choose Penner over Smyth as well. Better age and size and he was a 20ish goal guy for us too.It's a shame the Oiler consistently go with the players they like over the players that are better.
Maybe we could sign Penner and then someone can convince Smyth to sit out the first half of next season and sign after x-mas. I think he could still be a very good player over a half a season. But he obviously slows down over the course of a full year. I'd rather have a useful Smyth for the last half than the first half.
Edit: And to Shizuka, I'd also be ok bringing Stoll back in a bottom 6 role if we could move Belanger.
Hall - RNH - Eberle
Yakupov - Gagner - Hemsky
Penner- Horcoff - Paajarvi
Smyth - Stoll - Jones
Maybe we could sign Penner and then someone can convince Smyth to sit out the first half of next season and sign after x-mas. I think he could still be a very good player over a half a season. But he obviously slows down over the course of a full year. I'd rather have a useful Smyth for the last half than the first half.
Maybe we could just find a coach that doesn't grind all the older players into the ground by overplaying them for the first 25-30 games to the point where they all looked like crap for the second half of the season. No reason to focus on Smyth. Renney did the same thing to Horcoff and Khabibulin.
It might turn out that Smyth is done - it happens to every player. But I don't think you can make that determination off of this season because that is all on Tom Renney and his incompetence as a HC.
I don't agree with bringing Penner back, I don't think he can do anything that Harti can't, I want to see Harti for a good chunk of a season on the line with Ebs and Nuge.
Next season I think Horcoff, smyth (if hes here) and Belanger should just be banished to the 4rd line. I hope that Horcoff gets bought out but I don't believe in miracles.
I really liked Vandevelde, he looks way better on the ice than horcoff, outside of faceoff %. Wish we didn't have such bad contracts on this team where we could actually give him a chance without being guilty about garbage contracts. I hope that CBA thing occurs to buyout horcoff, if not they should banish Horc and belanger to the far reaches of Earth and never speak of them again and do not sign smyth.
Hope we can move gagner for a defensive piece and use grigs/galy on with Hall/hemsky. I hope we don't pick a defense, it's painful to watch our forwards without the depth that hall adds.
<-- Credit goes to The Nemesis.
