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Old
04-03-2012, 12:13 PM
  #51
achtungbaby
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
The rich teams nor the NHLPA are likely to support getting rid of that.
How many free agents are going to want to come to Toronto without a no-movement clause if we keep dumping guys we signed in good faith to the minors? I'd be more worried about that then the NHL/NHLPA changing the loophole.

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Old
04-03-2012, 12:18 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
How many free agents are going to want to come to Toronto without a no-movement clause if we keep dumping guys we signed in good faith to the minors? I'd be more worried about that then the NHL/NHLPA changing the loophole.
I think the only players we have done that to (Finger, Dupuis) have legitmatley been outplayed to the point where demotion is warranted.

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04-03-2012, 12:26 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
How many free agents are going to want to come to Toronto without a no-movement clause if we keep dumping guys we signed in good faith to the minors? I'd be more worried about that then the NHL/NHLPA changing the loophole.
If they can't play well enough to be in the NHL then that is their problem, not the Leafs'.

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04-03-2012, 12:31 PM
  #54
achtungbaby
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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
I think the only players we have done that to (Finger, Dupuis) have legitmatley been outplayed to the point where demotion is warranted.
True, but you hear it on these boards all the time. "We'll just dump some scrubs to the minors to make room for 'insert name here'". That's not the sort of long term plan we should have for ourselves.

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Old
04-03-2012, 12:40 PM
  #55
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so in other words, the panel is saying the leafs should do what we all thought burke was going to do 4 years ago?

that is, build a western conf styled team in the east, like the 06 ducks.

and then he traded for an undersized kessel...


what exactly was the revelation for you guys from this panel discussion?

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Old
04-03-2012, 12:45 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
True, but you hear it on these boards all the time. "We'll just dump some scrubs to the minors to make room for 'insert name here'". That's not the sort of long term plan we should have for ourselves.
lucky for you the guys on these boards have no input to the operations of the Leafs.

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04-03-2012, 12:48 PM
  #57
achtungbaby
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
If they can't play well enough to be in the NHL then that is their problem, not the Leafs'.
It would be the Leafs problem for signing guys who can't play in the NHL in the first place. And once again, what agent wouldn't notice that trend and make sure his guys had some insurance?

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04-03-2012, 12:52 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Around in 67 View Post
lucky for you the guys on these boards have no input to the operations of the Leafs.
I believe Burke himself made statements that said he could always dump guys to the minors and that he's not afraid to do that. It's just something to think about so that situation doesn't happen.

And the fact that us on the boards have no input to the operations of the Leafs never stopped anyone from giving their opinion about any topic has it? By that rationale, we might as well all read the Leafs official page and keep our thoughts to ourselves.

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04-03-2012, 12:55 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
It would be the Leafs problem for signing guys who can't play in the NHL in the first place. And once again, what agent wouldn't notice that trend and make sure his guys had some insurance?
Because it is difficult to negotiate a good salary for his player if the agent is at the same time making plans to make sure that his client doesn't end up in the AHL.

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04-03-2012, 01:16 PM
  #60
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What I find disturbing is that he built this team that is not in 'his' mold. Continued to back a coach that did not share his views and now has a team straddled against the salary cap that does not fit the new coach's style.........and people think this guy has the tools to bring us to a cup or contend for one? Good luck!

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04-03-2012, 01:18 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
How many free agents are going to want to come to Toronto without a no-movement clause if we keep dumping guys we signed in good faith to the minors? I'd be more worried about that then the NHL/NHLPA changing the loophole.
You mean like what Chicago is doing to Huet and Rostislav or what the Rangers are doing to Redden and Avery or what Buffalo does to Kotalik or Morrisonn?

I could go on but I think you get the point. The message should be received loud and clear that just like all other major market teams, if you don't pull your weight, don't assume you will be on the NHL roster.

I'm thinking professional athletes will be ok with that...

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04-03-2012, 01:32 PM
  #62
achtungbaby
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You mean like what Chicago is doing to Huet and Rostislav or what the Rangers are doing to Redden and Avery or what Buffalo does to Kotalik or Morrisonn?

I could go on but I think you get the point. The message should be received loud and clear that just like all other major market teams, if you don't pull your weight, don't assume you will be on the NHL roster.

I'm thinking professional athletes will be ok with that...
And I'm thinking they aren't which is why there are so many no-movement clauses kicking around these days. Anyways, it's not a huge deal right now as it's not like we're about to contend next year. But we need to keep this stuff under control (the cap) before it becomes a large worry.

Two teams offer the roughly the same contract: which do you choose? Sign with Nashville (who can't afford to send you to the minors anyways) or sign with Chicago (who have no qualms about burying salary)? For a lower-mid range free agent who isn't going to get a no-movement clause, Nashville looks a lot more attractive.

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Old
04-03-2012, 02:09 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
And I'm thinking they aren't which is why there are so many no-movement clauses kicking around these days. Anyways, it's not a huge deal right now as it's not like we're about to contend next year. But we need to keep this stuff under control (the cap) before it becomes a large worry.

Two teams offer the roughly the same contract: which do you choose? Sign with Nashville (who can't afford to send you to the minors anyways) or sign with Chicago (who have no qualms about burying salary)? For a lower-mid range free agent who isn't going to get a no-movement clause, Nashville looks a lot more attractive.
That's fair to say, really we don't know what they are thinking so it's fun to speculate. I suppose it comes down to the individual's mindset.

Some players may see burying contracts in the AHL as the ultimate commitment to excellence whereas others may feel that as a violation of an agreement. Both are valid perspectives given the player's individual circumstances and personal biases. If a player is buried in the minors but deserved the roster spot based on merit and strong play, that's a different matter entirely and can be viewed as disingenuous.

Really it's probably a bit of both. I would imagine some players respect a team for icing the best team possible while others may see it as breech of the agreement. I'm more inclined to agree with the former because at the end of the day the player is still getting the money agreed upon as it's a guaranteed contract.


Last edited by Rinzler: 04-03-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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Old
04-03-2012, 02:23 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
Two teams offer the roughly the same contract: which do you choose? Sign with Nashville (who can't afford to send you to the minors anyways) or sign with Chicago (who have no qualms about burying salary)? For a lower-mid range free agent who isn't going to get a no-movement clause, Nashville looks a lot more attractive.
Since our farm system is, apparently, full of third-fourth line grinders and plugs, I guess we won't have to worry about this dilemma, will we?

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04-03-2012, 02:30 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
And I'm thinking they aren't which is why there are so many no-movement clauses kicking around these days. Anyways, it's not a huge deal right now as it's not like we're about to contend next year. But we need to keep this stuff under control (the cap) before it becomes a large worry.

Two teams offer the roughly the same contract: which do you choose? Sign with Nashville (who can't afford to send you to the minors anyways) or sign with Chicago (who have no qualms about burying salary)? For a lower-mid range free agent who isn't going to get a no-movement clause, Nashville looks a lot more attractive.
It would first of all trouble me that the free-agent is so concerned with the result if he should play poorly???

There is already a system set up to prevent casting players aside and it's not like we are just dumping people on the Marlies! They go through waivers and 29 other teams make a choice on wether to pick them up. If 29 other teams also say "No Thanks" then the message is loud and clear - the player did not fulfill his requirements.

You really think a Brad Richards is going to turn down a team cause they sent down a Jeff Finger. He said yes to a team that sent down multiple players!

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Old
04-03-2012, 02:32 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
What I find disturbing is that he built this team that is not in 'his' mold. Continued to back a coach that did not share his views and now has a team straddled against the salary cap that does not fit the new coach's style.........and people think this guy has the tools to bring us to a cup or contend for one? Good luck!
He does have the team that "fits his mold" - He has been drafting them and acquiring them all along. He's built the team he wanted, he hasn't iced the team he wanted!

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04-03-2012, 02:47 PM
  #67
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I remember a time when there was far worse contracts and people doubted they coudl be moved! They were all moved and these are far more easy than those! THe only tricky one is Komi but we'll just have to wait and see!
how quickly people forget

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Old
04-03-2012, 02:52 PM
  #68
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FULL REBUILD! the only way this team will make it somewhere!!!! stop thinking overpayed UFAS will make us better.. This team needs to start a full rebuild, and burke and effing MLSE better realize now then in 3 years....This is why we fuking suck so much! cause we won't just admit a full rebuild is how we will get better... guys like penner,moen in the offseason wont helppppp.....Its so sad seeing other teams full rebuild and becoming good and us just being **** cause we hoping we can sign ufas and help us.. my god.
have you considered that maybe we are in a rebuild stage ? so what do you want to do , get rid of all the players they currently have so they might be able to draft new versions? if you do that you know the kids that are currently developing would have to go because they might be ready to help them win to soon.

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Old
04-03-2012, 03:06 PM
  #69
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Aaron Ward is one of the best spoken former NHL-player, now analyst I've ever seen. He puts Peca, Mcsorley and most others to shame.

In face I'd say he's even surprassing Kipper as the #1 former NHL-player, now analyst. He's bang on with a lot of points.

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Old
04-03-2012, 03:06 PM
  #70
cookie
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God I hate being that guy but,
Had we drafted Seguin, we would have found a top-line player that Randy Carlyle wants. During the draft, there was talk about how great a physical condition Seguin was in, something Carlyle looks for in his players.

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04-03-2012, 03:42 PM
  #71
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hopefully Brown stays

trade Lombardi to Columbus for Boyce, we need him back

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Old
04-03-2012, 04:08 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
Could easily see Burke paying guys like Penner, Gaustad and Moen to come here purely for their size or playstyle. But Dreger was right, big offseason for the Leafs. Burke needs to dismantle his forward corp and rebuild it.

Gunning hard for a guy like Vokoun should also be a priority. If you look at our forward line-up for next season it's pretty abysmal.

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
Kulemin - Grabovski - MacArthur
Lombardi - Connolly - Armstrong
Brown - Steckel - Rosehill

Bozak needs to be bumped and the entire third line needs to be replaced. A cheap center option must also be considered, maybe a guy like Daymond Langkow who can still put up points and has been through the playoffs through and through with Calgary and might notch more postseason expereince with Phoenix. Arnott also could be a target with his big body, veteran leadership, and playoff experience. Moen should be a priority as he would add playoff expereince, is familiar with Carlyle's system, and can be a good secondary player. LW I'd take a flyer on a guy like Penner. If he works out (Probably a 40/60 chance) you get a very big body who can crash and bang in a smaller conference that is slower then the West and maybe Penner notches 20g. If he doesn't, you bury him and pull up Kadri, Mueller or Ashton. But there needs to be serious consideration into how Burke builds this team. Moen could push MacArthur to the third line or maybe even make him expendable. Arnott, Langkow could be targets for their experience while Gaustad and Penner could be nabbed for their size. Depending on how the Marlies do I'd like to see Ashton or Kadri up with the club but if that's the case who do you move? Maybe if Lombardi is healthy you could run Kadri - Lombardi - Kessel for a very fast line that gets the puck to snipers.





Ideally I'd like Burke to dos omething like:

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
Kulemin - Grabovski - MacArthur
Penner - Arnott - Moen
Brown - Steckel - Rosehill

I'd also like to trade Lupul and see if we can upgrade on Bozak but those are minority opinions.



No offence but you lost me at 4 million+ for another third liner.

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Old
04-03-2012, 04:10 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
True, but you hear it on these boards all the time. "We'll just dump some scrubs to the minors to make room for 'insert name here'". That's not the sort of long term plan we should have for ourselves.
Because posters on this board have the final say/know about what goes on in the Leafs organization and therefore can be used as credible sources to site.

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Old
04-03-2012, 04:12 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
I believe Burke himself made statements that said he could always dump guys to the minors and that he's not afraid to do that. It's just something to think about so that situation doesn't happen.

And the fact that us on the boards have no input to the operations of the Leafs never stopped anyone from giving their opinion about any topic has it? By that rationale, we might as well all read the Leafs official page and keep our thoughts to ourselves.
Rangers do it, they don't seem to have problems signing players.

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Old
04-03-2012, 04:19 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Hyperglide View Post
Aaron Ward is one of the best spoken former NHL-player, now analyst I've ever seen. He puts Peca, Mcsorley and most others to shame.

In face I'd say he's even surprassing Kipper as the #1 former NHL-player, now analyst. He's bang on with a lot of points.
So true, I actually wouldnt be surprised to find out he is offered a job somewhere in the NHL before long.

very, very knowledgeable player. Happens alot though with guys that are not superbly talented, they have to make a living on working hard.

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